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Slashdot Meets The Pinkerton Corp.
from the somebody-is-listening-out-there dept.
The Chairman and lead Web developer of the Pinkerton Corporation have agreed to my request to fly to Charlotte, North Carolina on Wednesday and talk with company officials face-to-face abaout the objections many Slashdot readers have to the company's new "WAVE America" program.
WAVE America is a private, for-profit school-safety program gearing up in North Carolina -- with the enthusiastic support of the governor -- and going nationwide. It offers incentives (caps, T-shirts, cash) to students who call a toll-free number and anonymously turn in classmates they believe to be depressed or dangerous.
A company executive tells me that Pinkerton brass have already read all of the more than 1,000 posts about the program posted on Slashdot last week, and are considering some changes in WAVE America, including the cash and goodies. The company says it is also already revamping its vague criteria for identifying disturbed or dangerous kids, using specific symptoms recommended by psychiatric organizations.
I told the company official who called me that frankly, I hoped to convince Pinkerton to scrap this anonymous call-in program entirely. This kind of Draconian response to Columbine is unjustified, given that violence among children has been declining for years and that the horrific massacres are as random as they are rare. This kind of anonymous reporting encourages schookids to make judgments that therapists and counselors ought to be making, and could easily target the weird, geeky, unhappy and non-normal as well as the dangerous. It suggests the worst kind of Geek Profiling, in the process wantonly violating constitutional protections against unwarranted intrusions, search and seizure.
But I was surprised by the company's willingness to meet with me. I've been writing about variations on this issue for years. Large corporations are rarely -- in fact, never -- this responsive. Pinkerton executives said they were reading through all of the Slashdot posts, finding some of them compelling and convincing.
If Pinkerton eventually alters this program, it would mark a significant step in the use of the Net to provide individuals -- especially the young, who are historically voiceless in media as well as corporations -- with direct access to powerful entities that often aren't paying attention to anything but stock prices.
My expectations aren't high, but I said I valued a conversation over a confrontation and would keep an open mind if Pinkerton would. I also asked if I could post a message asking Slashdot readers whether they had specific questions about WAVE America -- one of a number of "school-safety" programs launched in the wake of the Columbine killings last year. So if you have any questions or opinions you'd like me to relay to the Pinkerton people I'll be meeting with, please post them here. They can read them directly on the site, or I can relay them. I'll report back on the meeting in a few days.
Question for Pinkerton: (Score:3)
Background: In junior high when I was 13, I was shy, awkward, and smart, like many
This led to a period of anti-social behavior on my part, which was reported. I was dragged into the principal's office. My parents (who were already frantic with worry) were called. I did not tell anybody what had happened, in the end, until years later. I was horribly embarrassed and ashamed, and really, what good would it have done? The behavior started in a church confirmation group and was not just observed but encouraged by the church "counselors" (who were slightly older teenagers anointed "counselor" by the church). The adults saw what was going on as well, but the precipitator was popular, and well, anybody that popular couldn't be a sex offender.
Now, let's review some of the Pinkerton warning signs:
-- Expresses uncontrolled anger: Well, yes. Sexual assault will do that to you.
-- Displays intense intolerance or prejudice: Why, yes. In fact, I did display intense intolerence towards jocks. Funny, their intense intolerence of me was never questioned, but my return anger got me called into the principal's office.
-- Has excessive feelings of isolation and/or rejection: Funny, that's another side effect of sexual assault.
-- Uses drugs or alcohol on campus: Yes, it was a useful way of getting through the day.
-- Suddenly has bad grades or little interest in school: Well, yes. Imagine, I couldn't concentrate on my studies.
-- Is easily angered by minor things: Certainly. Since I knew that there was no chance that my assaulter would ever be punished, I had little outlet for my anger.
Now to address a few posts I saw defending the Pinkerton program:
1) Yeah, but at least you're still alive, and if you'd brought a gun to school and killed the assaulter, he'd be dead.
Well, yes. That is in fact true, as laughable as the concept is to anybody who knows me. But guess what? He could have brought a gun to school and killed me (he certainly threatened to kill me if I told anyone). I am willing to bet a large sum of money that he would never have been profiled by Pinkerton, or, if he had, it would have been laughed off by the school authorities. So how on earth would Pinkerton have helped this situation?
2) Your anti-social behavior must be your parents' fault for not monitoring you closely enough. After all, any parent that is involved with their kids will know what is wrong and take steps to deal with the problem. The Pinkerton program is only going to report those kids whose parents aren't involved with them.
Bullshit. I am and was very close to my parents, and to this day they do not know about this episode. They knew something was wrong, but I couldn't talk about it for years. My mother was a stay-at-home mom (which seems to impress the folks who argue this point), and my father actively supported my forays into math and science. In fact, one can arguably say that it is only because of their support that I survived HS at all and didn't commit suicide. Even with supporting and loving parents, I was called in. What would Pinkerton have helped in this situation?
Finally, to my original question. I submit that I would have been reported to the Pinkerton program (after all, I was ratted out as "anti-social" in my school by somebody). But should I have reported the assault, would Pinkerton have assisted in the prosecution of the assaulter? Would they have testified on my behalf, or would they have been called in to testify on the behalf of the well-adjusted athlete? Somehow, I suspect the latter.
Anonymous for obvious reasons.
I'm unstable. And WAVE pisses me off. (Score:3)
While I'm usually one of your most vocal critics when I bother to read your babbling, I'm finding myself in the rather unusual position of agreeing with you on something... it's probably some sign of the apocolypse, but hey, that's life... Anyways, here's my thoughts (some of them, and quite disorganized) on the steaming pile of bullshit that is WAVE America...
First, the underlying philosophy here has more holes than a donut shop. Think about this, folks. The group that they're attempting to monitor is expected to police ITSELF. This doesn't work in any other facet of society. I can't think of a single instance where a group is trusted to police its own ranks. This is a bad idea from the word GO, no matter what the group.
Next, one must remember that this isn't just ANY group: we're dealing with CHILDREN. How on EARTH does any rational person expect a CHILD to recognize a psychological disorder? Children can't diagnose THEMSELVES, let alone others. A child can't distinguish between Bobby Joe being constipated, and Bobby Joe suffering from emotional turmoil. Hell, most PARENTS can't tell either! You're asking a group of kids to do the job of trained counselors. Not a good idea at all...
Another point to keep in mind is that the students WAVE seeks to single out are those who are different or strange. They can't pinpoint "potential troublemakers", so the next best thing is "those who fit the description of a troublemaker". While this is a great theory, in practice it's total bullshit. As many researchers, counselors, doctors and former "troublemakers" (myself included) will attest, the root of a child's problems is usually isolation and lack of social acceptance. While this program certainly will identify the socially isolated, this will only compound the problem. When I was in school, kids could point and say "he's strange!" With WAVE, kids can force ADULTS to say the same thing. If social isolation is the root of the problem, anything that INCREASES social isolation - such as singling out Joey as "that kid who goes to 'special' sessions three days a week" or "that kid who has to talk to the head doctor" - is bad. Think about it; when you were in middle school, wasn't there someone who had some "different" memorable trait or problem that went away during high school, yet was best remembered by it? Putting a 13 year old into counseling, removing him from his classmates, or making him look anymore "strange" in their eyes will just cement that label onto him.
Now, the BIG point, the REALLY important one, is that WAVE assumes that different==bad. Kids understand what they know... if someone is "different", kids think that's bad. WAVE reinforces this idea. "Call us, and report any suspicious classmates!" To a child, that reads "Call us, and we'll take that weirdo away!" Once they see that this WORKS, that they can get three of their friends to call too and magically Smelly Stan will be in "special" classes, they'll keep calling and calling and calling until they report everyone that's "different". What kids need to learn is that DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL BAD. If anything can be learned from these school shootings, it's that isolation and intolerance of "different" is a bad thing. We should be teaching our kids to recognize differences as a GOOD THING.
Instead of teaching them this, WAVE teaches them to report the "different" kids so they can "be fixed". THIS IS BULLSHIT. Absolute, total and complete bullshit. I look back on myself in high school, and see myself now, and thank God that WAVE was not in place. I'd have been raising every red flag in the system, and singled out for it. Right now, I'm finishing my Junior year of college, and having the time of my life. College is different. Here, people see something about me that's different, and say "dude, that's cool!" Or "man... I wish I could do that!" In high school, it was "dude, that's fucking gay!" Or "man... that's so fucking odd!" Right now, I've got a gorgeous girlfriend, a great job lined up after graduation, decent grades, loads of friends, and the respect of those around me. I couldn't think of anything else to ask for. In high school, I was "different", and persecuted because of it. A program like WAVE would have singled me out, embarassed the hell out of me, and made my life even more miserable. Basically, WAVE really strikes a chord with me. I'm "unstable" by their definitions, and being told that this is a bad thing really, really pisses me off.
In review, WAVE operates on philosophies that can be picked apart and revealed to be nothing more than a fresh steaming pile of shit.
Quite simply, recognizing and helping troubled children is the job of a trained professional. WAVE puts these responsibilities on CHILDREN.
Katz, I think you're a poor writer who's here on slashdot because he had the sense to jump on a growing gravy train, but I think you're also now in the position to make a real difference in the world, and do something useful for a change. I really hope you do a kick ass job when you talk to these people. Please, on behalf of everyone who WAVE might eventually effect, don't use this opportunity to hype your books, or terms (geek profiling), or political ideas. Please, please, please, keep your conversation along the REAL subject, and convince WAVE to take a long hard look at their underlying philosophies...
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Re:Term has worked well.. (Score:3)
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Re:I Find it Ironic (Score:3)
A lot of people turn to violence, not through sadism or malice, but because after a while, it's simply the only way they'll ever be heard or seen. Living your life as the Invisible Victim wears thin after a while.
Of the people most likely to be "caught" in this program, you're most likely to find depressives, manic depressives, survivors of domestic and/or social and/or school abuse (including emotional neglect), physically and/or mentally handicapped people, people with ADHD and/or OCD, the lesser-spotted Asperger Syndrome suferers, etc.
Then, of course, in areas with abnormally-high numbers of people with the above, it'll be "normal" people (whoever THEY are!) who will be the "outsiders".
I =HOPE= Jon Katz doesn't go there and sound like he sometimes does in his Slashdot articles. (Mind you, if he did, we wouldn't have to worry about any more articles by him! :)
This is an important issue, and I hope it gets treated with the respect and importance it deserves. It sounds like it, but "sounds" and "is" are two very different words.
ObIrreleventTrivia:
There's a sign in Devon, England, which reads: "Pick your own Strawberries, Raspberries, Cream Teas". Genetic Engineering in England has certainly gone a long way!
Speaking as a parent... (Score:3)
And if such a system becomes widely used, i fear for my child. He is extremely intelligent, but a social loner. He likes computers, and tends to say exactly what he thinks. This doesn't make him any sort of a danger to society, but it does make him a target for WAVE, not to mention a target for bullies. When i was a child, i behaved much as he did. And had access to guns, too (he does not). Did i shoot up my school? Nope. I went on to become a happy, successful and moderately well-adjusted member of society. I'm sure my son will too.
Unless the do-gooders decide to take their advice from the bullies and lock him up.
__
(oO)
I just question how this could work properly (Score:3)
The psychiatric community itself accepts that virtually every symptom of anxiety disorders, depression (the leading cause of death for many demographic segments), and mania are merely extremes of commonly occuring issues. The constant debates over symptoms and dignoses cause the DSM to fit, essentially, the moral views of the publishing date. No reputable psychiatrist would disagree that the DSM is as much consenus as it is fact (the difference being that diagnosis & treatment by "consensus" is invariably tainted by moral and political mores).
A clinically depressed person will be diagnosed differently by any number of professional, experienced phsychiatrists & psychologists, and the practice of allowing school counselors to participate in this (or even worse, completely untrained principals) has only made the issue of improper diagnosis more apparent and dangerous. To allow anonymous students to "diagnose" and turn in their fellows is to invite both paranoia and life-devastating errors, especially in the cases of children who are not "normal" (ie, average) but also not dysfunctional.
I find it ironic (although I'm sure the irony is lost on those such as Pinkerton who stand to make a profit) that the same day we're discussing the possibility of turning in aberrant children "for their own safety", the front page article on CNN's web site discussed the alarmingly high rates at which children are being prescribed mood-altering (in fact, brain-chemistry altering) drugs.
The very concept that pre-school children are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft in hopes to fix their aberrant behavior is shocking and literally nauseating. (Your son eats paste? My god, he's liable to kill someone!)
Even more fundamentally, activities such as this seem to be nothing short of an assault on our own children. We consider them to be caged animals, praying that with the proper psychopharmocology and big brother tactics we will be able to intervene before the inevitable killing spree begins.
In what other society, indeed, in what other history, have citizens been so clearly (and mistakenly) terrified by the concept that their children might exhibit the symptoms of free will? That they might decide sneaking out at night is fun?
Why must we encourage our children to "turn in their neighbors", when similar tactics have consistently and immediately been rejected throughout America in regard to adults? There have been several communities (heavily traffiked by drug users/dealers) where police have encouraged citizens to report any "unusual" behaviour, people or vehicles -- and these measures have always been soundly criticized as disturbing and paranoic, encouraging the use of anonymous tips as retribution between private citizens. This WAVE effort is no different, it just has better t-shirts and a company willing to make money off the abridgement of human trust.
The simple fact of the matter is that there isn't a shred of statistical or empirical evidence that indicates there is even a chance of this working.
The simple fact of the matter is that people (whether old or young) who commit the most shocking and heinous crimes (such as mass-murder, serial killings, etc) are impossible to predict or prevent. The most visably disturbed children and adults are rarely (if ever) capable of these kinds of activities, because they require the kind of intelligence and thoughtful planning that are (coincidentlayy enough!) exactly the skills you need to appear "normal".
While psychiatrists can diagnose ted bundy (or any of the recent teen killers) after the fact, the criminals would all be capable of (and in fact, did) convincing several clinicians of their sanity and harmlessness.
Ultimately, that's why I can't understand the goals of this program (given the stated intentions). If the goal is to stop "casual" crimes (like drug use, assault of fellow students, abuse or other extracurricular trauma), then the faculty (indeed, any capable observer) would be able to spot the symptoms. There is no need for a guerrilla force of students to root out such problems, as they are not frequently (and even less capably) hidden. They are universally ignored by those capable of helping (meaning teachers, police, and other adults). Fight the barrier of apathy among adults, not the "secrecy" of teens.
If the goal is to stop killings such as in Littleton, then I wish you good luck. People capable of such violence and mahem are wholly capable of evading amateur detectives and trained psychologists alike.
White male, upper middle class, highly intelligent, psychological issues from youth. It describes most every serial killer, mass-murderer, and successful businessman in this country. So where do we start the lineup?...
Re:Prime Target? [Re: Oh boy...] (Score:3)
99.44% of the time, it's just plain indifference. Because I don't like the same (crappy) music as everyone else, or enjoy the pointless sports that they do, or drool over the same celebrities, or wear the same clothes (only on weekends - stupid dress code; tie, shirt, etc), I don't fit into their world view.
And they respond by simply cutting me out of their world.
I've gone entire days without anyone speaking to me, or noticing my existence, except in class or if I literally bump into someone. Almost everywhere I go, I hear muted giggles and see people pointing (semi-discreetly) at me. And that doesn't even include the one or two _real_ assholes - the people who do things like breaking open the pathetic lock on my locker, pulling random papers out, and tearing them to shreds.
Having no one to talk to, and no one to talk to me is the most depressing thing I've ever had happen to me - excepting some rather...unpleasant incidents in elementary school I'd really rather not mention.
I can tell that even the people who _do_ occasionally pity me and talk to me a bit are a little afraid of me - and yet these are the same people (mostly girls) who not only put up with, but encourage their significant others to treat them like dirt. I could go on for pages on the psychodynamics here, I suppose, but I'd rather not spill into a 'Read the rest of this comment...'.
Why is it that people simply find difference so hard to accept? And why is it that such draconian measures such as WAVE are deemed necessary?
For the sake of myself, of the fellow geek whose post I responded to, and all the other underattended, ignored, abused geeks, I hope that this becomes nipped in the bud; I can just visualize the aforementioned assholes making up some story, 'ratting me out' - and showing up the next day at school, grinning wildly and waving reward checks at me as the security guards drag me into a van.
I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, and so I'll conclude succintly: we must not let this happen.
Thank you.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
Re:I Find it Ironic (Score:3)
With respect to the Boomers:
There's the positive side of peace, love and understanding, but there was also a lot of really strong bad influences on the Boomer generation too.
Let's not forget that the communist/socialist influence of college faculties and other academics was at least as powerful as it is today. The government was moving toward socialist policies in the 60's (the Great Society, et al). Revolutionaries in the Third World were being idolized by American adolescents, most of whom had know idea who they were really admiring, and a lot of people were buying the Communist propoganda.
We had MLK marching for civil rights (who coincidently was a communist sympathizer, although he had much to admire), but we also had Hanoi Jane sitting on VC anti-aircraft guns cheering the destruction of U.S. forces.
The fact of the matter is, that the Boomer majority is starting to act like a lot of the folks they were enamored with in the 60's, and many of the things they are pushing have a lot in common with the governments of Soviet Russia, China and Nazi Germany.
Taking away guns, dumbing down education, extorting powerful industries (like tobacco), micromanagement of peoples lives through excessively complex regulation and encouraging people to rat out their friends to the Party or Thought Police or whatever you call it, were and are all tactics of totalitarian regimes the world over, and are all being pushed heavily in the U.S.
I don't think we are about to become the Britannia of George Orwell's 1984, but so many of his concepts have come to pass in the U.S. and elsewhere that it worries me. We have to remember that the good intentions of the Boomer generation are sometimes subverted by the people that influenced them in their formative years.
I think Pinkerton needs to consider the example they are setting and keep the interests of the millions of disenfranchised outcasts in proportions with the interests of a very small number of potential victims.
Re:My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying (Score:3)
That's a scary phrase: positive-feedback abuse loop. At least for those of us schooled in feedback theory, that sums up a very large chunk of the problem. Frankly, I think that this term itself can change the minds of some people in the psychology/stop-the-shootings biz.
When somebody is trapped in such a loop, the abuse increases until something snaps in that person. Some will jump out windows, others will start on drug binges, yet others will get an AK-47 and literally go postal. I don't think you can tell which ones will snap which way; the solution is to stop the snapping. And a positive-feedback abuse loop is almost guaranteed to do so.
There are some people out there that just want to make money on the "going postal" problem (remember, it's not just kids). For those who are really into solving the problem, avoiding these positive-feedback abuse loops solves part of the problem and saves lives.
DDoS W.A.V.E... (Score:3)
Because the System can be abused why not abuse it in a constructive manner...
The system is going to be anonymous. This is the only way it will work, i.e. a wimp needs to turn in a bully because he likes to torture cats. If it is not anonymous the wimp will not turn in the bully for fear of getting the CRAP beaten out of him by the bully and his friends.
Because of this anonymous nature ANYBODY can use it, not just students.
If this system is implemented just turn in every student in a particular school. Why not get all the parents involved. Make convincing accusations and "way out there" accusations. The system will crumble in an instant, the equivalent of a DDoS attack. How would they be able to go over all the reports? How could they act on all of them, every student?
If this system is implemented I would be very tempted to organize and execute a DDoS of the W.A.V.E
Nononono. *THIS* is a rant... (Score:3)
You have confused escapism with escape. Escapism is something which distracts you from your misery. Escape is something which removes you from your source of misery.
Escapism is a band-aid. Escape is a solution.
Why should anyone who is being tormented, abused, oppressed be expected to treat the very natural and reasonable symptoms of their distress as an inconvenience, a disorder to be cured?
Would you tell someone to drink alcohol to ease the pain? Would you tell them to self-medicate with illegal pharmaceuticals? It is fundamentally the same thing.
What young geeks need is not escapism, but escape: escape from the schools which imprison them, which imprison their minds.
THERE IS NO REASON A YOUNG PERSON SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO AN ABUSIVE SITUATION. WHY SHOULD A YOUNG PERSON BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND A SCHOOL IN WHICH THEY ARE BEING THREATENED, BEATEN, HARASSED?
Until young geeks and outcasts have more and better options for LEAVING ABUSIVE SITUATIONS the problem will continue.
By "leaving" I mean "not being in schools they don't want to any more". This is a matter of law, of custom and of economics. Until it is possible for someone to leave school with impunity and pursue non-institutional choices, there is a sword hanging over their head. Until a geek being abused doesn't have to choose "Gee, should I drop out of school and flip burgers for the rest of my life, or should I risk getting my head bashed against a toilet at school today?" he is still a prisoner of the system.
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Silencing Dissidents (Score:3)
My question: How does the Pinkerton Corp. propose to prevent or at least discourage the use (or threat of use) of its product to silence dissidents in schools?
Quite frankly, most of the "weirdos" are in fact dissidents -- critics of the school system, of the culture of school, or particular teachers' conduct, etc.
Since this product has the potential to wreak havok in someone's life, it almost certainly will be used by teachers and/or peers to threaten or reprise against critics of the status quo.
It will be used against the publishers of underground paper and websites. It will be used against students who refuse to wear fashionable clothing. It will be used against students who do not elect to participate in certain activities, or who participate in the wrong activities.
It will be used against gay and lesbian students. It will be used against pagan, muslim and atheist students. It will be used against students who wear black armbands to school to protest wars or other causes. It will be used against students who refuse to fight, or join gangs, or do drugs.
Do you understand what it is that you are unleashing? Can you put down what you are calling up?
And how will you sleep at night?
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Nazi Youth? (Score:3)
My question for Pinkerton is this: If you've read all the previous comments like you said, you must have seen the innumerable people relating your program to Hitler's Nazi Youth, and to the movie that shares the name of your program.
Do you see the relations here? If not, why? And what is your response to these comments?
Accountability (Score:3)
(If it were to have some kind of report tracking, how would that change its effectiveness? Fewer call-ins due to bona fide retribution fears?) It seems that a monetary incentive to anonymously harm someone is begging to be abused.
Questions for the Pinkerton Corp. (Score:3)
Re:I have a report (Score:3)
Make Money Fast (Score:3)
I love this country!
DT
Am I the only one... (Score:3)
Am I the only one who read this and wished we could pick some other ambassador than Mr. Katz? No offense -- afterall, the man's intentions are good and more or less in the right place -- but I usually find Mr. Katz a little too...strident, I guess, to picture him doing any real good in this meeting, and he often fails to grasp the realities of the situation he's discussing which could lead to misunderstandings which might in turn work against dismantling this abominable WAVE absurdity.
--WhiskeyJack
Prime Target? [Re: Oh boy...] (Score:3)
My name is Mike Greenberg, and I'm 15. I go to Bloomington High School North (BHSN) in Bloomington, Indiana, and am a freshman. I'll try not to ramble. :)
I am a geek -- I won't deny this. Ever since I was a little kid in kindergarten I was singled out as the 'smart' one. I was in my elementary school's 'gifted' program, and took advanced classes at my middle school. At BHSN I take all advanced classes. With no gratuitous arrogance, I am more advanced than the classes that I partake in, as the level is rather low.
Ever since fourth grade (my elementary school's gifted program didn't begin until fourth grade) I was ostracized from the 'other' kids and, in accordance with the will of the school administration, isolated from the other students, as well.
When I went to middle school, I was a 'punk.' While lacking in the dyed-hair department, I wore the 'attire' (pretty much anything that wasn't pop-culture at the time). I still am 'punk,' merely in the sense that my hair is pink and that I don't wear pop-culture clothes. For this, I am singled out.
Now, my school is pretty cohesive. We don't get a lot of fights after school, we haven't had a suicide shooting. That bond between the students is not universal, though. I am mocked, jeered, and despised by some. In my art class, I am mocked because I argue with the teacher about transcendentalism, for instance. I am not well-liked, and we'll leave it at that.
I am, as some might say, depressed. I'd really rather not go into it (especially not in a forum like this) but, as it is easy to guess, it involves girls...and drugs...and guys. Regardless of the semantics, I am depressed. I am upset at a variety of things, and look so -- I am often times not my perky, question-answering self, and this is clear to all of those around me.
Do I pose a danger? Should I be called into WAVE? I know that I would be, but that is not the question that I've posed. I know that I have the sense to not turn my depression and anger into violence. I think this is plainly obvious. But, out of spite and, perhaps, a little bit of fright, I would be reported -- and unjustly so.
My final question would be: what purpose does this serve? Do you think that a teenager incapable of doing so many things should be, of all things, a judge of his or her peers? Do you think that adults could handle this sort of responsibility? Sure, juries function. Juries, however, judge a single person, for a single crime. Is society capable of judging individuals? Should society have the right to judge individuals? Should teenagers, of all members of society to choose, have the right to judge individuals? I think not.
--Mike Greenberg
Thus spoke Zarathustra.
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Re:OK...questions (Score:3)
Kids need some infrastructure to listen to them. Listen about their problems or about their classmate's problems. If you really care about your classmate do you need money or rewards to start to be concerned ?
If their parent are not the right person to listen to them, they should at least have an anonymous person listening to them.
What they need is not the reward but a person who can listen to them in the first place. IMHO, I can't figure out why someone need a reward to help his fellow man. If you're not the type of person to get involve you should at least be able to tell anonymously what bother you and someone else can do something about it.
As a lots of people point out, history shows us some pretty scaring things about denouncing your neighbors, friends or coworker for a reward.
Ho pleeeeeeeeease, think of our children!
pointless (Score:3)
The premise of the WAVE program has multiple, fundamental flaws:
"Suspicious" kids are sometimes the least deserving of suspicion. I would have been a prime target for the WAVE program (the Pinkerton one, not the movie one) in HS. I was a loner. I wore black and camouflage. I spent hours on the computer. I listened to violent, angry music. I acted out, angered easily, had a twisted and morbid sense of humor. I was a good shot with a rifle. I was the polar opposite of the crew-cut, ultra-conservative, football-playing, prom-going, illicit-beer-drinking status quo that dominated my school. Despite all this, I'm just fine today - graduated college with distinction, have a great programming job, live in a great city, have an interesting circle of friends, make more at 23 than both my parents, combined, ever.
Many (not all) of the "symptoms" Pinkerton lists on their website aren't indicative of violent psychosis so much as they are symptoms of an endemic that fails to afflict only the soulless - the emotional tumult of being a teenager. I don't condone violence or violent acts, but to create an atmosphere where adolescent emotion is stigmatized will only increase the wall of isolation that torments many of us at this age.
This will only reinforce administrative incompetence. High school administrators are notorious for being pathologically and monumentally incapable of thinking outside the box. Example: My principal wouldn't let my senior class have the theme from "Cheers" as the class song for fear that it would glorify drinking. (Yes, true story.) As often as not, this tool will end up being used to justify/reify such baseless and capricious acts by administrators. So much of one's success or failure in high school (at least, on the books) already depends on whether the administration/faculty like you or not - I'm sure that one questionable tip on the WAVE line will provide the justification for many an administrator to crucify a good, but disliked, kid.
It sends the wrong message about interpersonal trust and loyalty. Under the WAVE program, authority figures implicitly tell kids that betraying a friend commands a price as cheap as a cheesy baseball cap/t-shirt.
It will be abused. If another group of students doesn't like you, WAVE puts you in danger of being falsely ratted out, without any accountability from the reporting party.
Yeah, there are plenty of holes in my arguments, but I'm a little pissed off right now. Okay, back to work.
I hope... (Score:4)
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My List of W.A.V.E. Concerns (Score:4)
However, the Pinkerton decision-makers have to realize that children live very different lives from the rest of us. In real life, legal protection is subordinate to common practice. Thus, a middle school student who is verbally or physically abused by peers is, by the laws of the schoolyard that prevail, not entitled to any protection from teachers, police, or the court system.
Now, this snippet of argument might lead one to think that I support the idea of adding the authority of a third (private, disinterested) party into the Schoolyard Corpus of Law.
But I do not. At least, I do not support Pinkerton's current version of the law. I think Pinkerton has been seduced by sunny blond girls and boys* linking hands, praying, weeping, singing songs about the violence in schools, vowing to fight intolerance and embrace all students. But the reality is this:
While the popular boys and girls may feel a grain of love and tolerance for their fellow students in the face of monstrous crimes, they fall, soon enough, into their old patterns, which range from simple exclusion by these sunny blond people to the commission of absolute atrocities against the rest of the schoolyard.
Haven't you wondered why you only ever saw cheerleaders linking hands with other cheerleaders in these media pictures? It's because the goths, geeks, and nerds know that the above italicised paragraph is a truism that cannot be affected by any number of Anti-Violence Singalongs. Diversity in the workplace has no analog in schools.
So, what is the solution? W.A.V.E. America is not the solution, in its current form. Here is a list of my concerns about this program.
There is just so much more I could address. If there'd been more notice, I would have asked Pinkerton if I could fly out as well. For instance, the mission statement that states that they are dedicated to "tomorrow's workforce" implies exclusion on their part -- poets and beatniks be damned, we're just protecting the future cubicle occupiers because as a company it would be irresponsible of us to protect anything beyond our own interests.
Anyway...to anyone that has read this far...thanks for listening to my admittedly long opinion on this matter!!
-- Amanda
*I bear no responsibility for the Aryan resemblance to Hitler youth. Associating violent jock gangs with Hitler youth might be valid, but it's still cheap and self-serving.
** Dissecting Columbine's Cult of the Athlete [washingtonpost.com]
***From the Pinkerton site [waveamerica.com]
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Blown away... (Score:4)
That said, here's my list of thoughts, then a list of questions.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for safe schools, etc. But students reporting on each other is the wrong use of resources. I'm all for a WAVE program that teaches inclusion, not reporting of exclusions.The "warning signs"... (Score:4)
More disturbing was "Conveys violence in writings and/or drawings." Lot of room there. I guess kids shouldn't draw battles or scenes from their favorite movies; God knows what will be reported about them.
While still capable of being misinterpreted, I think the Imminent Warning Signs [waveamerica.com] they list are a bit more on-target.
Totally worthless, IMHO, is the Why Call The WAVE Line [waveamerica.com] page and it's purpose. It urges newly-hatched WAVE drones to call the line if they wish to anonymously report drug/alcohol abuse, vandalism and suicide threats -- valid cases I suppose -- along with aggressive behavior, harassment, intolerant attitudes and "Anything Else Harmful to You or Your School".
Gee, could I call the WAVE line to report that WAVE is harmful to me and my school?
Any of you high-school gratuates out there remember not experiencing some kind of agressive behavior, harassment or intolerant atttudes during those years?
I'm so damn glad my school days are long past; high school was stressful enough without worrying about the Stasi looking over my shoulder every minute.
Online gaming for motivated, sportsmanlike players: www.steelmaelstrom.org [steelmaelstrom.org].
My biggest fear about WAVE: a tool for bullying (Score:5)
Jon,
I'd really appreciate if you could ask the WAVE people how they plan to deal with its potential as a tool for bullying.
WAVE strikes me as an easy, anonymous and rewarding ($$$, t-shirts) way to cause instant grief to a fellow pupil. Kids who are willing to break a kid's bicycle lights, ostracise her in the yard, or embarrass them in the classroom on a permanent basis, will have no qualms about abusing this company's tool to get anyone quiet or different into trouble.
Now what I suspect is that, further to the above, the company's mechanisms will not be sufficient to catch such abuse.
Remember Independence Day? Remember the drunkard pilot who dusted the wrong field? Remember the TV interview with his "friends" who said, "Nice guy. Harmless guy. But the aliens abused him. Sexually."
Picture this now: an anonymous tip is received, "this guy's trouble". The class is identified. Now I don't know what WAVE's procedures are, but I reckon they're not going to just use a single anonymous tip-off before hauling in the kid, right? Surely they'll interview other kids first to make sure it's not just a grudge thing?
In a class of thirty, you will get twenty-four people who say "Dunno. He's quiet all the time. Noone seems to like him." and five who, for the laugh, will make up half-truths for the interviewer to make the kid seem as disturbed as possible.
Interviewer files his report, which is processed and added to the statistics database that will be presented to customers at the end of the year saying "we dealt with 100,000 potentially distressed students this year".
It's easy to see the individual elements of WAVE as pretty harmless in themselves. But taken together:
Dave
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I have a report (Score:5)
------------
a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless
Question from a european point of view (Score:5)
I second Signail11's question. I have another question: do you realize that in Europe a plan such as yours would raise much concern, so much as to throw hundreds of thousands of protesters in the street? Do you realize that anonymously denouncing people has been only used by the harshest dictatorships in this century? Do KGB, Stasi, Gestapo and Sekuritat ring a bell to you? Ever heard of the concept of yellow star?
As for the marketing angle to your website (and as I understand it, whole program). Do you know that Europeans would never let their kids be exposed to the kind of advertising that's widely used in american schools? Maybe here again that's a reminiscence of dictatorships: I believe the nazis pioneered the use of propaganda towards children.
Having drawn those parallels, do you share my (our) concerns? If you do, and I hope you do, how come you did'nt think of it before?
KISS (Score:5)
The root cause of this is remarkably simple: standardized education hits the middle of the bell-curve and ignores, or is actively hostile to, any more than a standard deviation or so out. That is to say public education satisfies it's demands for about 69-78% of the population. For the rest, however, it's living hell.
Many kids who go through this become depressed, suicidal, despondent, their grades falter, peer relationships become unstable or non-existant.. all the symptoms of a person under high stress. What you are proposing to do will not help these children. All the program will do is associate yet another label to a problem nobody wants to address.
This background was necessary to give you a framework in which to see where I'm coming from with my question. My question is, why are you punishing these kids for being different?
Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling (Score:5)
I was by no means a jock in high school, but I didn't fit any of these geek stereotypes either. I participated in the Track & Golf teams, as well as Speech, Drama, and Yearbook. I never played a single game of D&D, and we only had Wolf3D, no Doom yet.
When I look back at some of the bastards who made my day hell, I realize that it is terrifyingly easy to understand how anyone could be driven to depression, suicide, or revenge by the purposefully cruel actions of their classmates. I got slammed against lockers, given "titty twisters" in the locker rooms, kicked, hit, and generally verbally abused as well.
I'm not trying to tell my story here, I'm sure most of you experienced things that very similar, and I'm sure many of the "jocks" did as well, especially from upperclassmen in the same sports.
So what do we do about this problem? Blaming the victims will get us nowhere. If you want to create a resource for kids who need help, howabout one where they can go to report the abusive actions of their peers, where school administrators won't tell them to "tough it out" or to "deal with it". I never ONCE felt that any teacher or administrator in my high school would give two craps that Andy Jahnke tried to stuff me in a locker. (He's dead now, head-on car accident, I laughed when I heard that, seriously, maybe there is something to karma.)
My suggestion, Pinkerton, is howabout not rewarding students for turning people in, but providing a resource for students and administrators about what steps to take to stop these abuses. Students should have someone, several someones in fact, at every school who will be their advocates in these cases. There should be a local police liason with the high school, and these cases should result in charges being filed against the abusers.
Too often, I feel that these things are viewed as harmless, when the victims are truly physically and emotionally harmed.
If you leave bruises on a person, it's assault. Period. There should be no suspensions from sports, you're off the team permanently. You do it again, or so-help-me-god retaliate against the person for reporting you, and you're expelled, as well as violating your probation.
There need to be real consequences for those who abuse their fellow students. Not 15 laps, not detention. If I walked into my co-workers office and slugged him in the stomach, would my boss make me work late? No, I'd be charged and sentenced by the legal system, and fired from my job.
Why is this not similar if I'm a senior in high school? Why do those being abused not report the cases of abuse to the police and/or school administrators? Why do we as a society view it as less-severe if the participants in these forms of violence are still in high school?
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I Find it Ironic (Score:5)
I find it ironic that there are so many young people who are confused and hurting, who really need just one or two good adult role models to sit down with them and listen to them for a while...
When I was a teenager, I didn't want people to listen to me because they might be afraid of what I might do. I wanted people to listen to me because they cared about me and could identify with the way I was feeling and the thoughts I was thinking.
Don't alienate young people even further in the guise of helping them. Please.
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Want to Stop WAVE dead? Ask them this: (Score:5)
They cannot rely on the "open conduit" principle used by ISPs because they specifically stated that the 'kids will be trained' in the danger signs to recognize. As Governor Hunt noted, "This program is more than just a tip line, it teaches students and parents to look for the early signs of violent behavior and to resolve conflicts constructively."
Training children does not automatically induce liability (if it did, few would dare teach anyone anything out of fear that the student might not learn well or might deliberately misuse the knowledge), but the possibility clearly exists
I hate the fact that we live in a litigious society, but note that my examples (below) are just issues of responsibility. Corporations are not people (except in the eyes of the law) so the legal system stands in lieu of many of the elements of societal conditioning and 'conscience' that individuals are expected to have
The WAVE training and hotline will be the equivalent of showing a few Driver's Ed videos in assembly, leaving a Pinkerton car in the parking lot with the keys in the ignition, and telling the kids "it's for you to use only in serious situations."
If anything goes wrong, there will be two or more "innocent" minors involved, a 'beleagered' school, and a Big Corporation. And perhaps third party victims as well. Whatever the details of the case, no lawyer could overlook the deep pockets of the corporation.
There are a hundred issues of access/liability in such an unreliable database: Will they relay all tips blindly? Will they accept responsibility for those they choose to relay? Those that they choose NOT to relay? Will they keep all tips confidential (hiding them from potential victims)? Or does the public have 'a right to know'? Will the info be available freely to law enforcement or only under specific subpoena? Will the 'subject' be told of the detailss of the tip made against him/her? Or will it ne an undefendable slur?
What are the specific criteria for reportable actions? Example: drugs, yes -- but casual use or dealing; and what type of drugs? Tobacco? Alcohol? Only 'illegal' drugs? Oops, sorry, both butts and beers are illegal in this group, and being drunk poses the same dangers as being high when it comes to both violence and lethally poor judgement (e.g. throwing rock off the water tower onto the school yard)
What about pornography? Allegations of danger signs or situations inside the family (physical or sexual abuse -- gee, I guess even the parents aren't safe, after all)? Depression? Sexual activity? Religious beliefs? Political beliefs? (Look out Satanists and neo-Nazis... but also, wiccans, politically active Arab refugees, etc. it doesn't take much to be labeled a potential terrorist or 'cult')
Oh yeah, I'm waiting for Crosstown High's entire football team to be hauled in for questioning the week before the state finals... on a series of tips from Riverdale High. A rumor of last week's kegger is one thing, but with an outside company making the report, the pricipal doesn't dare risk one of the kids getting in a drunk driving accident next month.)
Oh I'm sorry, is this a downer? Is this getting awfully complicated when all you wanted to do was stamp out DOOM players, kids who wear black, freshman whose AP Chemistry scores suggest "more than adequate knowledge to make a bomb" (it happened to me, and the shadow followed me through HS. Funny thing - a senior with the same knowledge would be applauded)
Lord help them if they decide 'on a case-by-case basis'. That's pretty much full liability.
In short. THEY design a system. THEY implement it. THEY are going to have a tough time if something goes wrong. And it WILL, perhaps not because of them, but nonetheless their nose will be inextricably stuck into a situation fraught with inherent perils... with a plan that's untested and has had relatively few man-months of thought. (something with this kind of impact needs tens or hundreds of thousands of man-months of debate -- e.g. a public referendum on the ballot)
__________
Bring me the head of the football team captain.... (Score:5)
Athlete-worship and America's anti-intellectualism (whichever caused the other) are both to blame for the "socially acceptable" violence that occurs as the alpha males haze the underlings. The problem is that even in chimp research, every once in a long long while, the underling surprises the alpha male and kills him. Doesn't just rub his nose in shit, doesn't just throw him out of a tree... kills him. And then the whole family of chimps, enamored with their alpha male, ostracize the chimp who did it.
WAVE might give the nerds a chance to rat out the jocks (but who would wear a shirt that says, "I'm a Narc, guys!" to school?), but no matter what 20/20 hindsight they have, and no matter what they told the interviewers, the jocks never saw Columbine coming. Let me say that again:
THEY NEVER SAW IT COMING.
Any jock who beats up geeks knows that he's not as smart as they are. Bullying stems from insecurity. A bully who picks on a pensive geek is asking to be taken by surprise, in a devious, well-thought-out plan, that allows no revenge.
SO: we need to save these Darwin candidates from themselves. Turn them in, take the cash, buy hardware, and stay smart. The more bullies we stop young, the less we have to kill.
In short, WAVE won't ever find the dangerous geeks, but if its creators are smart, WAVE can be used to stop all of the violence.
Oh boy... (Score:5)
Is this what people think is actually the solution? I am amazed by america everyday.
Can kids not go to their parents anymore? I came from a severly broken home, but I could almost always go to one of my parents with a problem. I have a 10 month old daughter. I hope that she can come to me when she is older.
Personally I don't see kids getting worse, on the contrary I see less violence than when I was in High School 3 years ago. My younger siste is a junior and has had progressivley less problems and talks about progressively fewer fights every year.
I think the major problem that we are facing is completely irresposible media. Sure, Columbine was news worthy, but it was NOT a commentary on America's youth. It's not a commentary on the Internet, it's not a commentary on Games.
I know many people that spend hours per day on the net, play quake, listen to heavy music and wear dark clothing that are as happy as humanly possible. They are just enjoying life. At work we played a Q3A deathmatch last night. I didn't go kill anyone, i didn't even harm animals as I ate my vegetarian dinner. So i listened to some punk rock and went to sleep.
This morning I woke up and was at my job at 7:30 a.m., about an hour and a half early. I didn't kill anyone. I have no real anger in my body right now and I've been on the net all morning.
In high school i would have been a prime target for this. I was a depressed, insomniac, geek/musician that had multi-colored hair in multiple spiky arrangements and a skateboard and a really bad attitude about life. I never went over the edge. But being persecuted like this could have easily pushed the wrong buttons.
OK...questions (Score:5)
2.Why not offer a help line for depressed kids rather than a snitch line? Canada has had the Kids' Help Phone for about 10 years now and it is wildly popular and successful, as well as ANONYMOUS
3.Rewarding kids is nothing new, but doesn't WAVE take corporate sponsorship to a new level? It's bad enough that there is so much advertising in schools, and I feel kids today are just being groomed to consume and consume since they day they're able to point "I want that".
4.One of my favourite authors once wrote about the indecency of being made to pee in a bottle "with the results potentially ruining your life forever" or something to that effect...is WAVE more interested in ruining lives or actually helping them?
Re:What if -- A compromise (Score:5)
FYI, I had an acquaintance who decided to get a mutual classmate in serious trouble; he enlisted my aid, and the aid of a number of other kids likely to be considered "reliable witnesses" by the teachers, and the complicity of a bigger kid for "backup". Then he got the majority of the class to help him provoke a fight with the target; the bigger kid stepped in a saved his butt from being kicked. When the principle was called in, all the witnesses were already lined up. We got the kid detention for a week.
Just so you know.
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Fury (Score:5)
Two things, Jon:
(1) Sure, read it to the CEO. But you do realize that Pinkerton is exploiting this political stunt? That if they don't sell this or some other "defensive" product (they aren't in a position to sell therapy or other remedy to personal problems, only defense of the school), they have no business interest at all?
(2) The thing which most pisses me off about this entire thing, having gone to read their web site, is that they're selling to the schools and parents the myth of students that they want to hear: that it's all the kids' fault. In particular, they have all this nonsense about getting students to take the threat of violence seriously. I assure you, the kids take the threat of violence seriously! That's why most kids bring knives and guns to school in the first place! That's why teasing is so threatening and traumatic -- it's not because your feelings have been hurt, but because you don't know how far or fast the situation will escalate.
The FACT is that it is the teachers and administrators who don't take the threat of violence seriously. They're the ones who turn a blind eye ("kids will be kids") right up to the moment one kid blows another's brains out.
That Pinkerton could so venally cater to the self-serving, responsibility-absolving fantasies of school administrators that it's really all the kids' fault for not taking violence seriously, or not "walking away from fights" is sick and evil.
But, theres's no business in selling schools a product which shows them their deficiencies, or seats responsibility in the school staff. Who will buy a product or service which tells them that they allow violence to be perpetrated against children? Much more emotionally safe to buy a product which puts the responsibility onto the victims themselves.
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Re:The Onion's take on Geek Profiling (Score:5)
Dissecti ng Columbine's Cult of the Athlete [washingtonpost.com]
Which is a fairly good analysis of the fact that the administration at Columbine seemed to tolerate and encourage violence among the students. (Especially the ones who were involved in athletics.). It's basically a serious version of the Onion story.
Incidentally, I don't think that the Columbine murderers were geeks, really. I think that a good portion of the media/political establishment decided to label them as such because it serves their agenda. For instance, geeks are always complaining about things like the DMCA and they know more about computers than members of Congress. Not surprising that the government favors the image of geeks as dangerous social outcasts with scores to settle. They did the same thing with hippies after the Manson murders. It seems like the two murderers got some of the same lenient treatment from the school as some of the athletes, if the Washington Post story is to be believed.
For example, in the story referenced above in this post, it is noted that the two Columbine murderers had committed felony burglary before they went on their killing spree, which would seem to be more germain than the fact that they modded levels for Doom. Most people, however, only ever hear about Doom. Also, Columbine isn't the only one of these attacks, how come Jonesborough is never mentioned? Could it be that the details of the Jonesborough incident don't fit a useful profile? In fact, I pretty sure that a careful analysis of Jonesborough wouldn't yield it as a "geeks vs. jocks" situation at all.
Kids and Guns (Score:5)
Approximately half of the households in the United States have one or more gun present. A large fraction of those households - probably the majority - are populated by members of one of the factions of the American Pluralist culture.
These people train their children in proper gun handling at an early age. They are generally gifted with a gun, as well, typically when the parents or guardians determine that they have demonstrated by their behavior that they are responsible to handle it, or at the first birthday thereafter. This may happen as early as age 12 (though the gun will be stored safely, and the child will lose access to it if he demonstrates irresponsibility later).
The criminal and violent activity of children who have been trained with guns by responsible adults has been studied, and compared with that of those who have not been so trained. It turns out that the overall delinquency rates of the two groups are about the same. But when you look at the TYPES of misbehavior, the difference is drastic.
While the kids not trained with guns are out selling drugs, mugging, and robbing liquor stores, the kids trained with guns are out after curfew, or smoking in the boy's room. Even when kids trained with guns become involved with local youth gangs or commit assaults (which they do much less frequently than those not so trained), there is a conspicuous difference: They don't use a gun in the assault.
And if you look at the perpetrators of the various highly-publicised school shootings, you'll see a significant fact that the press has missed: Virtually all of the perpetrators came from families that were strongly anti-gun. At least one was the child of a prominent activist in the anti-gun movement.
So I share with the rest of the posters the concern about labeling of intelligent tech-savvy kids who hang out with others of their kind, don't participate in sports, and are already the butt of the jocks' and authority figures' harrassment. And I share the concern about the use of such turn-in programs by the little psycopaths prevalent in schools to further harrass anyone who doesn't knuckle under to them or who reports THEIR misbehavior, to obtain gifts off the system, or to hassle people at random just for giggles. But I have an additional worry.
I'm concerned that the Pinkertons will become involved in the current culture war. I'm concerned that this tool will be used to stigmatize children who have the misfortune to be born into a household that is a member of one of a set of well-integrated, peaceful, social traditions that predates the American Revolution.
And I'm concerned that this will further the attempts at the eradication of those cultural groups.
Dear Pinkertons: (Score:5)
But even given the strictest 'psych-inspired' guidelines, I would have been locked away in a WAVE-sponsored rubber-room. I spent quite a few years studying 'profiling', and the underlying psychology as part of degrees in criminal justice and forensics. At the time, we were introduced to a study that had come out of the Ohio Department of Youth Services. According to their risk assessment criteria for juvenile offenders (which looks strangly enough like your WAVE criteria) I would have been locked away in a maximum security juvenile facility, drugged with antidepressants, and forced to undergo extensive counselling had I done anything as wrong as being ticketed for spitting on the sidewalk in Dayton.
And what had I done to deserve this dangerous classification? I was introverted, had an IQ of 160+, made vague verbal intimations of violence toward others ('get out of my face, jock, or I'll make sure you're the first one dead when the Revolution comes') and was more interested in frobbing ten-year old computer equipment than frobbing sixteen-year old girls.
'I must have been ill.' Bull. You stick yourself in a room full of mental vegetables and see how long it takes you to become depressed and angry. Try to sit through two years of high school after graduating college. Same feeling.
And what became of me? Well, I finished two degrees, and am on the 'fast-track' at a major company. I am well-adjusted, moral, and probably finished ahead of 90% of you 'WAVE-approved' sheep. The last generation of my family was almost locked up in a rubber room at Pleasant Ridge during the wave of profiling in the early sixties, for much the same reasons Ohio would have had me locked up. One is a lawyer, one is on her second doctorate, and the last is a published author and noted engineer. We are collectivly the cream of society. If your system would have us locked up as 'deviant', it needs to be rethought.
Checks and balances (Score:5)
I was wondering what kind of checks and balances you would be applying to this system? Surely you must have considered the issues behind this beforehand and must have some kind of idea about how to separate the potentially dangerous from the depressed or prank victim. Given that the point of this is that fellow students are in a better position to notice behavioural problems, how do you as outsiders determine the validity of an anonymous call?
Given that Americans pride themselves on the various checks and balances inherent in the Constitution, I am curious to know how this system will be balanced. I believe that the underlying idea has some merit - after all fellow students are the most likely to notice problems at an age where parents generally aren't confided in - but in its current incarnation it seems it will simply lead to a deluge of pranks, hoaxes and wrong diagnoses. The flood of names supplied to WAVE may seem to validate its purpose, but in reality what is the use of this system in every teenager in America is on their lists?
Turn em' in (Score:5)
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:5)
Re:How will Pinkerton avoid misclassifications ? (Score:5)
C'mon, Pinkerton -- if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, you're just another bunch of snake oil salesmen, trying to suck up to the public trough. Clever racket -- school shootings are so rare that nobody can really tell if your system works. *You* don't care if you ruin a few thousand lives, as long as you get the dough.
If you aren't willing to pay indemnities, then you don't believe in your own system. If you don't believe in it, why should anyone else?