Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Feedback: Who Owns Ideas

Posted by JonKatz on Thu Mar 23, 2000 11:24 AM
from the new-ways-of-distributing-culture-online dept.
The escalating battle between Net-using music fans and the music industry -- like many of those Washington political brawls -- is mired in name-calling. ("You're a thief!" "No, I'm not, corporate pig!") Lots of people e-mailed ideas for new models for distributing and selling culture online in the hope of moving the discussion forward. For their ideas, read more:

The escalating and increasingly symbolic conflict on the Net between music and movie fans and the entertainment industry seems to drive most people into one of two camps, Ro Sumner writes in response to last week's Slashdot discussion on the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and the free music wars.

The problem, Sumner says, is that discussion halts around two central ideas:

"This is theft! Theft is wrong!"

Or: "No, it's not theft, and so it can't be wrong!"

His analysis is accurate. The discussion certainly gets framed this way by media, politicians, lawyers and law enforcement. And the issue is important, because this conflict will surely shape ones to follow between rapidly expanding open-source models of information that allow files to propogate like virii, and historically proprietary institutions -- banking, Wall Street, law, medicine, education and politics, to name just a few.

The battles springing up around the way music, TV, movies and other so-called intellectual property are transmitted digitally -- and in what contexts their creators are entitled to be paid for their use -- are shaping up in the way issues emanating from Washington so often do. They calcify into two eternally warring sides that never seem to persuade one another, and are thus unable to move the discussion forward.

One fantasy is that the Net, especially open source models of communication, offers the promise of a more rational approach. It makes possible an unprecedented range of open and civilized discussion, feedback, ideas and potential solutions. This is said hopefully, but knowing full well that most innocuous Net discussions can be nastier and more brutish than ones that would be called "heated" on MSNBC.

But something about this issue seems to transcend the usual head-banging. The Net's potential for this kind of discussion was reinforced again last week by intelligent and well-informed e-mail from lawyers, programmers, musicians and consumers. Concerns about intellectual property seem to rise above the usual squabbling. Everybody apparently agrees that something is wrong, a new approach needed.

The fact is, culture is already being transmitted freely all over the Net; that isn't likely to stop. But both artists and corporations have rights too, along with consumers. The existing reality isn't making anyone happy.

Sumner suggests focusing on the unworkable nature of the economic model that currently governs marketing culture. "Bits aren't widgets," he says, "and we shouldn't try to sell them as if they are. There are other models. The service model, the shareware model, the freeware/donation model, etc. I think that's the main point -- we need to pay the bitmakers directly, or as directly as we can."

Ian Stoba pointed out in e-mail that the discussions of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act centered mostly on the consumers of digital music, not the producers.

"I don't know how well this is known outside the music industry, but no one hates the record companies as much as the artists. Giant record companies routinely write abusive contracts and just flat out steal from musicians," he noted. "The royalty musicians get for the sale of a CD is very small (like $15 per unit). The costs of producing the record, making the video, booking the tour, and marketing come out of the artists share, not the labels?" The artists do not see a dime of royalties until all the label's costs are repaid."

Stoba goes on to suggest that "the Net could be a radically more efficient distribution medium for the musicians as well as the people who buy music. A band could sell a CD over the Net for $1 and actually make more than they do selling it in a record store for $15."

Musician Matt Rose wrote that he was reminded of this quote from Bruce Sterling:

"This is the time to be thoughtful, be expressive, be generous. Be "taken advantage of." The channels exist now to give creativity away, at no cost, to millions. Never mind if you make large sums of money along the way. If you successfully seize attention, nothing is more likely. In a start-up society, huge sums can fall on innocent parties, almost by accident. That cannot be helped, so don't worry about it any more. Henceforth, artistic integrity should be judged, not by ones classic bohemian seclusion from satanic mills and the grasping bourgeoisie, but by what one creates and gives away. That is the only scale of noncommercial integrity that makes any sense now."

Sterling's idea of a "start-up society" -- as good a description of Net and Web culture as anyone has ever come up -- suggests patience, creativity, generousity and innovation. Nice ideas, but they don't seem to appeal either to lawmakers or large entertainment conglomerates.

Rose thinks that most musicians don't want to be millionaires; they'd rather have a lot of people hear their music. "A lot of them think that MP3's and the Internet are the distribution channels they've been waiting for. That's not going to happen if record companies don't let them do it. Every musician I know would be happier if MP3 distribution were an accepted way of getting people to listen to their music."

But some artists are understandably worried about releasing music on the Net; people may not want to pay for a CD at all when they can copy it for free. But Stoba says he's been thinking about a system that collects payment for playback, not for purchase, an echo of Sumner's idea.

"What about if consumers paid a very small fee (say .l cent per song played) every time they played a song?" Then a central distribution site (like MP3.com or iuma.com) could collect the usage stats and pay the appropriate royalties directly to artists. Program your player to skip the song you hate on a disc and you'll never pay for it. Play a cut 20 times in a row and the band will get paid accordingly. Stoba's even come up with a collection method: debit accounts established with sites that allow the MP3 player to automatically deduct money as songs are played. Some colleges and universities -- if the record industry wants to be generous and smart -- could collect revenue from music distribution on their sites, instead of dodging lawsuits.

Mikko Hanninen wrote to suggest that there are alternatives to the current copyright system -- like the "Street Performer Protocol" written by J. Kelsey and B.Schneier -- that could ensure that people who are responsible for creative work get paid, while digital information remains freely shareable online.

The SPP is an "electronic-commerce mechanism" designed to make it easier to privately finance public works. Under this protocol, people would put money aside, to be released to authors/artists/musicians in the event that their work enters the public domain. The protocol initially referred to marginal or alternative works, but it has some promise as a new economic model for dealing with Net copyright, in no small part because the Net changes the very meanings of "marginal" and "alternative."

People could pay a single, modest, single fee to an entertainment Web site, which could keep track of the music or movies consumers use and pay small royalties to the company, thus the artist. Like Sumner's debit account, this approach raises a number of privacy and technical issues.But the notion of setting aside some payment for artists is preferable to the cat-and-mouse-game now being played by the entertainment industry and millions of computer users.

That model also gives artists an initial payment, but recognizes that ideas and culture become free -- like it or not -- once they are distributed virtually. This is precisely the point where existing ownership debates tend to break down: there comes a point where content on the Net for practical purposes simply becomes public domain. Payment has to come before that, or not at all.

The first step in approaching issues like who owns ideas online is recognizing that total control over ideas is no longer possible. And it might not even be a good idea economically. The political aspects of the open source impulse driving at least some of the conflict over "free" music -- simple greed and desire are others -- argue that broad distribution of content makes it and the artists and creators of it more, not less valuable.

Their work is seen or heard by many millions of people, they have the opportunity to try out opinions, works and directions in front of their audiences, and they ultimately might be able to turn that reach into economic gain. Nobody's really certain yet. Commercial applications for open source software are becoming lucrative; perhaps there are implications there for other businesses as well.

Despite corporate warnings, "I don't think the current economic model for selling creative works such as books or music albums will collapse under the piracy and copyright theft on the Net," Hanninen writes, "but the fight about copyright censorship and enforcing will get ugly, and having an alternative would be nice."

The copyright fights have already gotten ugly; an alternative would be nice. It would also be nice if real alternatives emerged to the roadblocks currently in place.

Another post came from Spurius (Rei) via earthlink. "The critical issue that keeps surfacing is artist compensation," he writes. The answer he once advocated was a regular fee charged to gain access to all music. Though the fee would be small, it could add up to a substantial amount.

The problem, as Spurius himself acknowledges, is launching a comprehensive system. "Just neglecting the fact that most musicians currently are signed to long-term record contracts, even new musicians would be unlikely to be swayed to join some new system which can't guarantee anything, seems non-standard, technological, etc., unless they were extreme fans of open media."

Gaming models might offer some ideas for dealing with intellectual content, since that's another industry where the same issues press, Spurius suggests. A company that releases a game, instead of selling it, could offer membership to a service that permits consumers to download any game they choose from the server any time.

Instead of offering only its own games, a company could allow all companies to put their games on its server, including people who have already released non-commercial games.

Spurius's idea is to sell culture, beginning with smaller games and projects, and building towards bigger, more commercial products.

From Timothy Lord, Slashdot's managing editor: "A question that arises when it comes to alternate means of paying for content: 'If prices were lower, would revenues be higher?' If it only cost, say, $3.00 instead of $15 to grab the content of a CD, would enough people buy the CD from music companies or designated agents to justify the move? (From the point of view of the producer, I mean.)

"How about if middlin' quality files were freely available," Lord suggested, "and everyone was allowed to play, trade, store, collect them -- but the companies more jealously guarded high-quality transfers? Like a lot of people, I'd be much happier to pay $8 for 8 songs I like than $10 for eight I like and another four I never want to hear."

Lord's idea is interesting for several reasons. As hinted at before, corporations and copyright law don't distinguish between "popular" and "marginal" intellectual property. (Imagine the brawls among artists over which category they'd get put into). But cost could be tied to sales, either in the way Lord suggests, or inversely: the more people who buy a hit CD, the lower its costs. A number of websites already encourage consumers to mass - purchase products with the understanding that the greater the number sold, the lower the price. Given the size of the Net, that could result in cheaper music than ever before. But it would also require more imagination and daring than any record company has yet shown.

A lot of people wrote suggesting the creation of a commercial entity of some sort that would allow users to choose their own custom CD's, and to pay only for the music that they want. A number of sites have tried to provide this kind of service, including www.cductive.com/ ( now http://www.emusic.com/). But these sites are somewhat limited in that record labels determine the range of available songs as well as their cost.

A theme running through many of these suggestions is the single fee for aggregated downloads. Instead of paying separately for individual titles, for $50 or $100, consumers could download all the music and movies they want up to a certain number -- say 1,000. The potential volume is enormous. But the industry continuously overlooks the potential behind a vast new audience online.

This instinct to move the discussion past name-calling is significant. But the major problem with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act is that it is not merely a point of discussion; it's the law that now covers intellectual property online. Only in recent months has it become apparent how noxious and one-sized a law it is. The DMCA is a statutory embodiment of the problem that stems from corporations becoming the primary contributors to the political process. Whose ideas are members of Congress going to support and protect? The people who fund their increasingly expensive campaigns? Or free music lovers on the Net, many of whom are disgusted by Washington politics?

The DMCA suggests that corporate pressure can reverse the way lawmaking ought to work: the law seems to have come before the discussion, as is clear from messages like this one from Brad Zimmerman:

"This week I've 'pirated' 1GB of MP3's via my 512K ADSL line. What I also know is that wholly because of MP3's I've bought three Aphex Twin CD's, a Apoptygma Berzerk CD, a Cleen CD, several Beastie Boys CDs, a Juno Reactor CD, etc. Later this month, I'll be buying a bunch of CDs (six, online) and they will mostly be stuff I've heard of via MP3s. What I do is still illegal, though. I know it. I do it anyway. I highly doubt I will ever be caught because I honestly believe there is no money in prosecuting me -- and the music industry, though blisteringly short-sighted, knows what makes money and what will lose money."

Zimmerman believes that most people involved in the free music discussion agree that "something" has to change and, in fact, a surprising number of people e-mailing me last week wrote that they would happily pay for music and movies -- providing that the amounts were small, the access substantial, and that the result was greater options and choices.

One reality moralists clucking about "piracy" don't quite grasp is that millions of people all over the world have amassed vast music archives in recent years, and are understandably loathe to give them up. This isn't about stealing a few songs -- it's about codifying the evolution of an entirely new kind of cultural system.

"Hey wait a minute," e-mailed Mike from St. Paul, "I've been downloading music for free since I was in middle school. I've acquired a rich love of different forms of music online -- jazz, folk, hip-hop, techno ... Now all of a sudden I'm a pirate? Give me a break. I could never afford to buy this. I love music and support a lot of musicians, believe me."

Many bristle at the idea that they can only buy music in the expensive, often mixed-quality form in which the record companies sell it.

Since this issue gets shrouded in moral chatter -- "theft," "piracy," "immorality" -- it seems only fair to point out that music industry works much the way drug cartels do, monopolizing music and its distribution, and exploiting dependence.

The hypocrisy involved in this industry yowling about "piracy" is almost too much to take(the record industry earned a record $15 billion in l999, despite its claims of huge losses exacted by "pirates"), and it obscures the plight of artists whose work circulates widely without payment.

"It is not OK for you to let teenagers (or anyone else) pretend that the 'piracy' of movies or music is morally OK," Zimmerman writes. "If we don't agree with the law, let's change it."

Well said. Until reasonable systems of compensation and distribution are in place, the music-industry / listener schism will only deepen, to the benefit of neither.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Feedback: Who Owns Ideas | Log In/Create an Account | Top | 255 comments (Spill at 50!) | Index Only | Search Discussion
Display Options Threshold:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1) | 2 | 3
  • CDs not overpriced (TANSTAAFL): by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:07AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:40AM
  • Here is an interesting idea... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:04AM
  • Re:Blinded Visionary by Maryck (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:10AM
  • Quality is a good incentive to buy by Maryck (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:08PM
  • Re:I thought DIVX was dead? by Maryck (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:20AM
  • JonKatz - Whatever happened to Credibility? by Threed (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:29AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Langley (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:21AM
  • Why the Sea is Boiing Hot by jzitt (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:22AM
  • You get paid for working... by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @04:58PM
  • Re: REAL Artist Compensation. by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:10PM
  • Re:Exactly! by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:19PM
  • Re:Ideas and programming by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:22PM
  • Re:The Music Industry and Capitalism by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:39PM
  • Re:it's funny how little any of you really know by richieb (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:53PM
  • Re:Exactly! by richieb (Score:1) Friday March 24 2000, @06:11PM
  • Intellectual Property? by lambda (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:12AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property? by lambda (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:02AM
  • Dad, is that you? by unitron (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:13AM
  • What about the IUMA? by lrc (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:31AM
  • Re:My $0.02. by Byteme (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @03:40PM
  • My $0.02. by Byteme (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:36AM
  • Re:My $0.02.(Pissed in my Wheaties) by Byteme (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:24AM
  • Re:Force and RMS? by Zagadka (Score:1) Friday March 24 2000, @03:28PM
  • But maybe that world... by JonKatz (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:20AM
  • But how.. by JonKatz (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:22AM
  • Re:This is all about freeloading by elflord (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:13AM
  • Re:This is all about freeloading by elflord (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:17AM
  • This is all about freeloading by elflord (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:10AM
  • Isn't that happening in Open Source? by haakon (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:03PM
  • Open Content license by Logolept (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @02:49PM
  • Re: REAL Artist Compensation. by um... Lucas (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:08PM
  • Re:Changing times by um... Lucas (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:12PM
  • get your own idea's by um... Lucas (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:51AM
  • If you want original solutions... by orpheus (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:12PM
  • Re:Changing times by zzyzx (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:05AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by SpacePunk (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:59AM
  • Re:My $0.02.(Pissed in my Wheaties) by nnet (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:09AM
  • Re:That doesn't work... by angelo (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:25PM
  • Re:But how.. by angelo (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:36AM
  • Re:That doesn't work... by angelo (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:31AM
  • Just Do It... by SEWilco (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:42AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by mberkow (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:05AM
  • Free Speech or Free Beer?? by mberkow (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:08AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by mberkow (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:12AM
  • Re:You know... by Wah (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:37AM
  • Re:Ghost performances -- Phish by zavyman (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:09AM
  • Well, that's the way it is... by Sun Tzu (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:43AM
  • And what about ideas posted ??? by zanONi (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:11AM
  • by considering the Internet as a broadcast media.. by zanONi (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:22AM
  • Re:You know... by zanONi (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:51AM
  • 1c / song ~= 40 cds / year by prizog (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:44AM
  • We Pirates, Buyers of Music, Rapscallions of Yore by WillAffleck (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:13AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by SpIcEz (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:09PM
  • Money meets Mouth by goliard (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:31AM
  • Re:Did Jon Katz just re-hash an older article? by kubalaa (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:05AM
  • Summary? by Kazir (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:58AM
  • Just stop supporting to the record companies by ODiV (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:02AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by TheTomcat (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:14AM
  • Re:But maybe that world... by axo (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:26PM
  • Re:Changing times by axo (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:48PM
  • Actually I have a patent on ideas by Cy Guy (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:32AM
  • Position by tilleyrw (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:05AM
  • unsigned bands by The Queen (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:56AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by jamienk (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:18PM
  • Re:Ghost performances by jamienk (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:24PM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by jamienk (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:28PM
  • Re:Blinded Visionary by Battra (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:21AM
  • Here's an idea... by deblau (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:59AM
  • Todd Rundgren by Taucere (Score:1) Friday March 24 2000, @02:33AM
  • Re:Almost, but not quite by Stonehand (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:00AM
  • Re:Almost, but not quite by Stonehand (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:00AM
  • Re:You know... by matman (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:23AM
  • why the industry fears this by alprazolam (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:46AM
  • You think the intermediaries will disintermediate? by Tau Zero (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:05AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by uninerd (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @03:01PM
  • Talented artists will always have power by WiartonWilly (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:54AM
  • john katz: pls search "chaordic" by zerone (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:47AM
  • Re:Almost, but not quite by DebtAngel (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:27AM
  • Almost, but not quite by DebtAngel (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:28AM
  • Mommy I'm Bored... put Katz away he bores me by Rares Marian (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:06AM
  • Re:Ghost performances Concerts > Records by Rares Marian (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:24PM
  • revenue stream by eddeye (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @10:05PM
  • Re:Did Jon Katz just re-hash an older article? by typhatix- (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:22AM
  • Glaringly obvious by davidc (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:15AM
  • Force and RMS? by Arker (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:47PM
  • Re:Force and RMS? by Arker (Score:1) Sunday March 26 2000, @02:50AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Butt (Score:1) Friday March 24 2000, @12:45AM
  • Compensating artists by brennan73 (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:24AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Your_Mom (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:26AM
  • Why not sponsor-supported content? by El (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:12PM
  • How about tips? by Garbage (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:39PM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by curunir (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:17AM
  • Re:You know... by -wAx- (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:32PM
  • Re:Music spending habits won't change by tokengeekgrrl (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:41AM
  • Internet business model. by Last Warrior (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @04:27PM
  • Something is lost with custom CD's by Stalemate (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:17AM
  • Artists earning millions is not right by shario (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:42PM
  • digital freedom by kaoshin (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @01:30PM
  • Re:Ghost performances by eldurbarn (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:23AM
  • The problem with intellectual property law by Thiarna (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:52AM
  • Re:My $0.02. by swordgeek (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:22AM
  • Re: REAL Artist Compensation. by Alkaiser (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @03:30PM
  • Re: Something like that... by Alkaiser (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:57AM
  • Re: Well sh*t. by Alkaiser (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:09AM
  • Nothing New by Andy_R (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:42AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by dafunn (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:47PM
  • flawless replication by rmstar (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:37AM
  • Re:Econ 101 by Galvatron (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:32AM
  • Music inc. by Uncle_Al (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:22PM
  • Hip-hop DJ's have been breaking this law for years by klyX (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:24AM
  • A viable means for rewarding artists? by erodios (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:22AM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by jallen02 (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:11AM
  • for what it's worth by Lord Omlette (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:14AM
  • Re:You know... by Lord Omlette (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:16AM
  • do you really think so? by Lord Omlette (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:28AM
  • Re:You know... by talonyx (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @10:18AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by frknfrk (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:07AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by hakioawa (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:35AM
  • Quick Correction by Angron (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:41PM
  • Re: REAL Artist Compensation. by YIAAL (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @05:20PM
  • Supply vs. Demand Re:Record co's don't get it by devilsadvoc (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:30AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Bear13 (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:55AM
  • A partial solution by shren (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @02:39PM
  • There are no solutions by Rysc (Score:1) Friday March 24 2000, @01:23AM
  • Free BEER^^^^Music by pe1rxq (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:30AM
  • Only 1 Windows program ever written! by www.sorehands.com (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:00AM
  • Changing times by absurd (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:35AM
  • Re:You know... by skinhead (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:23AM
  • Re:Music trading has always been free by ZikZak (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:26PM
  • Promotion not Piracy by Markar (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:15PM
  • Re:Free BEER^^^^Music by AntiNorm (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:40AM
  • discounting bestsellers by adoxograph (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:04AM
  • Re:Not to sound like a Communist or anything, but. by MasteroftheVoxel (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @10:08AM
  • Paying per Listen by MasteroftheVoxel (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:04AM
  • The Music Industry and Capitalism by MasteroftheVoxel (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:18AM
  • Re:Ideas and programming by wsabstract (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:27AM
  • Ideas and programming by wsabstract (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:49AM
  • Re:Only 1 Windows program ever written! by wsabstract (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:04AM
  • D.I.Y. by SigVn (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:17AM
  • what we pay for by Grogg (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:43PM
  • Theft? But nothing was stolen...... by Implacable Hate (Score:1) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:20PM
  • A deeper problem by Phil Winninghoff (Score:1) Wednesday March 29 2000, @10:14AM
  • Re:You know... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:02AM
  • Matt Rose speaks for me! by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:53AM
  • Re:Here's an idea... by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:44PM
  • Sure, it's already happening by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:16PM
  • Albums as art? by Trepidity (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:05PM
  • Ideas... by pb (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:34AM
  • Re:That doesn't work... by Danse (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @10:00AM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by Hrunting (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:03PM
  • Music spending habits won't change by Frank Sullivan (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:09AM
  • Poor little troll, was Re:Intellectual Property? by Nicolas MONNET (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:00AM
  • How radio works by unitron (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:44AM
  • Somebody please moderate up the above. by unitron (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:55AM
  • We don't need no steenking summaries by unitron (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:57AM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by Signal 11 (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:10AM
  • Distribution for profit == quality levels of MP3 by CodeShark (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:25AM
  • Record Company Contracts by wesmills (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:24AM
  • Meta-Ideas.. by angelo (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:35AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Wah (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:46PM
  • Re:Ghost performances by Wah (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:47AM
  • Re:Just Do It... by e-gold (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:33AM
  • It's about the consumers, stupid! by Somnus (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:18AM
  • Re:I admit it, I'm a thief! by Hard_Code (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @11:49AM
  • Re:But maybe that world... by SloWave (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:52AM
  • Re:The Music Industry and Capitalism by FalseConsciousness (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @12:02PM
  • Simple idea... by Noryungi (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:05AM
  • Re:Ghost performances by G27 Radio (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @02:48PM
  • I thought DIVX was dead? by Quintin Stone (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:08AM
  • Re:Did Jon Katz just re-hash an older article? by TheCarp (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @08:52AM
  • Re:Ideas and programming by TheCarp (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @09:14AM
  • You are really proving Katz' point... by guran (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @10:46PM
  • Distribution and access is everything by guran (Score:2) Friday March 24 2000, @01:12AM
  • Re:Blinded Visionary by 348 (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:33AM
  • Blinded Visionary by 348 (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:51AM
  • Everything belongs to me! by www.sorehands.com (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @06:58AM
  • Re:But maybe that world... by skinhead (Score:2) Thursday March 23 2000, @07:50AM
  • by Danse (1026) on Thursday March 23 2000, @08:03AM (#1179741)

    The problem is that nobody gets to see the patent until it's granted. Then it costs big bucks to dispute it in court. Corporations are concerned with the bottom line. If it's cheaper to just pay the royalties, that's what they'll do. Then the bad patent stays on the books and the little guys are the ones that get hurt. They can't afford to pay and they can't afford to dispute it either.

    The other problem is that they keep giving patents on blatantly obvious stuff. Things that are so commonly known that nobody bothered to document them. So someone goes to the PTO and says, "Check out this great idea i've got." The examiner (during his ~8 hour search, which presumably includes the time to do the paperwork) can't find any documented use of the technique, so he awards a patent on some trivial idea.

    The Amazon 1-click patent is a pretty good example of something that is obvious to someone skilled in the programming field. It was a pretty obvious use of cookies. Big deal. It doesn't deserve a patent just because nobody else had decided to implement it, or at least they didn't document it if they did. It's just too similar to too many other things out there. Are we going to hand out patents for every minor modification of an existing idea? I'm sure we will if the PTO is the only one deciding these things. That's how they make their money after all. The more patents they can crank out, the more money they make. Sounds like a pretty screwed up system, doesn't it?

  • by cpt kangarooski (3773) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:21AM (#1179742) Homepage
    Yes, but a lot depends on the specifics of the crack. If you've got a system where anyone can redistribute a file, and anyone who uses it automatically pays for that use there is a serious problem when someone redirects the payment to themselves.

    Frankly the system that was in place earlier in the 20th century was more or less decent, when coupled with common sense. Sadly we are in a bit of a common sense drought in certain circles, and the copyright laws have been getting more and more oppressive to the public (which is pretty contradictory as these laws are there for the public, not for the artists)
  • A simple idea, a really simple one, without risk of any kind, that would'nt change their revenue model at all, and that would enable them to sell MORE ...

    Here's the starting point: you've heard about a product, you want to get a grip of it. In the proprietary software business, 99% of the time, they allow you to download a crippled (functionality or time-bomb) version of the software. You want to try it, you download it, or request a demo CD. It's a good idea, it's respectful of the customer, and it fits extremely well in the proprietary software business model.

    Now, s/software/music/, s/product/song/. You've heard about that band, or you've heard it briefly ... and you want to hear more of it. Why don't they just offer a crippled, low bandwidth, freely redistributable version of the tunes they sell? Say, they encode it at 32kbps. It gives you an idea of it, you can somewhat enjoy it, but if you like it at least a little, you'll feel compelled to buy the high quality version without a doubt!

    And it's so simple to implement. And they would get benefits from people passing their files along to friends.

    BUT THEY DON'T DO IT! Because they don't get it. Instead, when they offer files on their websites, it's 10sec long excerpts, low quality, unsaveable real audio files. And they expressely repress you from distributing/copying it! (As if there was any kind of worth in them).

    Instead of trying to get the best out of the MP3+Internet medium, they fight it. They will lose. Good riddance.

  • by Signal 11 (7608) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:06AM (#1179744)
    There's a quote I'm reminded of which I will paraphrase:

    A man goes to a trade show and tells the security guard "I am the greatest thief of all time, and I will plunder this trade show". This worried the guard, so he kept an eye on the thief, and on his way out, searched the thief.

    The thief returned the second day and said "I stole many things yesterday, but today will be better!" The guard was now very worried, and at the end of that day searched the thief. After he found nothing he asked the thief "What are you stealing?" And the thief smiled and said, "I am stealing ideas!"

    The moral of the story is that ideas cannot be kept locked up in boxes, buried in vaults, or kept behind the magic of technology. They cannot be imprisoned.

  • by Kaa (21510) on Thursday March 23 2000, @08:32AM (#1179745) Homepage
    finished and produced tracks and film are not 'ideas'. They are intellectual property. They are actually a product. When someone steals this, they are stealing property,

    Please unbunch your panties. Thank you. Now, intellectual property is a weird beast. There are good reasons why it is legally separate from "general" property like land, widgets and beer. I'm not going to go into that right now, but any textbook on IP law will spell out it out nicely.

    Given that, what you refer as "stealing property" is legally called "copyright infringement". Please note this -- law does not call it theft. Because bits are different enought from physical property, different laws apply to them.

    Consider what a copyright is: it is basically a government-granted limited-time monopoly. It's also limited-rights monopoly -- such doctrines as "fair use" (until DMCA, at least) and "first sale" considerably limit what copyright owners can impose on users. So shouting "this is theft, didn't your mother teach you not to steal, you'll rot in hell you bastards" like the RIAA and MPAA are doing is not either particularly useful or accurate.

    there's a right way and a wrong way. Breaking the law is the wrong way. Changing the law is the right way.

    Well, this depends. I don't know about you, but my life is too short to spend it fighting all the laws I find ridiculous. The current laws neither arouse mystical awe in me, nor they dictate my own personal morality. So I have no problems at all in doing things that I belive are moral, but at the same time break some laws (to give a trivial example, I and 99% of Slashdot readers break speeding laws all the time. The rest 1% cannot tear themselves from the screen in order to drive anywhere).

    I don't believe there is an absolute moral imperative that says "Thou shall not break any laws, ever". Obviously, breaking laws may lead to quite severe consequences, and is not always (and, probably, even not usually) the optimal way to solve a problem. However, sitting on a high horse and pronouncing "You people are all thieves, and immature brats, to boot" does not strike me as a particularly reasonable position.

    Kaa
  • by goliard (46585) on Thursday March 23 2000, @08:16AM (#1179746)

    You, friend, are an accoustic musician, as am I. For us, performing makes much sense.

    However, there are such creatures as "recording artists" in truth: artists who use electronic means to produce a recording as their work of art. For such as they, the concept of live performance is an absurdity.

    Sorry, just had to play devil's advocate. I am highly sympathetic to your point of view (More Gigs Good!), but it doesn't work for all of what we today consider music.
    ----------------------------------------------

  • by hypergeek (125182) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:48AM (#1179747)
    For the past century, the technology required to make quality informatic products (whether movies, recorded music, software, or published books) required large amounts of capital to get started, so big companies had an immense advantage.

    The march of progress, however, makes it easier and easier to create, market and distribute such content, enabling individuals and small companies to produce their own, and even make money in the process (no matter how ideological you are, there always lurks that bottom line).

    Whether indy labels, free music archives, independent filmmakers, or global enclaves of thousands of hackers making free software, these independent types are starting to provide content with more creativity and variety than was ever possible under the media behemoths. Soon they'll give the Big Guys a real run for their money.

    Of course, the Internet accellerates this trend a thousandfold. For Big Media, the Internet is Pandora's box, but for the rest of us, it's our Prometheus.

    Sooner or later, this independent effort will force all content providers, big and small to provide their wares at reasonable prices, and the Big Guys will feel the pinch... especially when the rest of the world realizes that they don't even need to pirate anything anymore, due to the proliferation of free and low-cost content.

    Although Big Media knows they need us, their dirty little secret is, We don't need them.

    And they're scared.

    --

  • by jjsaul (125822) on Thursday March 23 2000, @08:07AM (#1179748)
    Notice how every example you stated was of the Catholic Church as patron? The patronage system did allow artists to work, but the artist's work was dictated by the agenda of the patron. Is this a bad thing? I don't know. But it does tell me that there are many forms of expression that are unlikely to attract a patron with the resources to give the artist the means and freedom to work.

    In a way, all commercial sale of art ( including performance licensing) is distributed patronage. A million individuals might pay $10 each to support an artist, acting as patrons or consumers - same thing. Or one person may pay $1 million. Which is more likely to result in a greater variety of expression?
  • by Raunchola (129755) on Thursday March 23 2000, @06:42AM (#1179749)
    OK, didn't Jon Katz post a story similar to this a few weeks ago, albeit a few hundred lines less?

    That comment not withstanding, the whole point of the story is the same as the last one...we should all be able to download MP3s as we please, because it's some kind of "evolution of an entirely new kind of cultural system." I hate to have the unpopular opinion in this matter, because I too have a decent collection of MP3s on my drive, but theft is STILL theft, no matter how much utterly boring verbiage Katz uses to justify it. At least this time Katz acknowledges that some people knowingly download MP3s, rather than his last argument of "Well, they didn't know!"

    As you put it Katz, "culture is already being transmitted freely all over the Net." That doesn't mean that downloading MP3s from the latest Filter album is justified. I too would like to see a change in the current law on copyrights, but rather than babble on Slashdot about your absurd utopian views which drag three flames for every regular post, how about DOING something about it?

  • by www.sorehands.com (142825) on Thursday March 23 2000, @06:49AM (#1179750) Homepage
    It's over the ease of distribution.

    The music industry would love to distribute music over the net as long as they get their cut. When casettes came out, they had the same concern as they do with MP3s. The MPAA had the same concern with BetaMax as they now have with DeCSS (imagined, not real).

    Especially now, where you can make unlimited copies that do now show generations, they are even more concerned.

    Some of it is valid. But, their actions are overactions and inappropriate.

    There are companies selling copyprotection for software at SD 2000 in San Jose. There will always be people making illegal copies, no matter how impossible (yeah right). But how much of this is really lost revenue?

    If I have a photographic memory, do I have to pay royalties everytime I repeat lines in a movie?

  • You know... (Score:3)

    by Mathonwy (160184) on Thursday March 23 2000, @06:40AM (#1179751)
    If artists arn't happy with big compaines.... And consumers arn't happy with big companies...

    If we could figure out some way of making sure that artists get paid, but can still distribute on the web, (and the above artical has several promising ones), and if we could convince enough artists that it was safe, then the other artists would probably eventually follow, and we could all just quietly move away from big companies, thus making everyone happy. (Except the big companies)

    of course, they're the ones with the cash, and so they probably wouldn't go down quietly, (I think they already sense that the end is near, hence DMCA and it's friends) but if enough artists and consumers simply walked away.... then the big companies would just quietly curl up and vanish.

    Wouldn't that be nice.
  • by zipped (163315) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:07AM (#1179752) Homepage
    I currently am one of the heads of an independent jamband record label (Lauan Records [lauan.com]). The jamband community has always been a huge supporter of tape trading (which is similar in many ways to people trading mp3s), in fact it is one of the fundamental ideas that jambands stand by to get their bands name out there (some popular jambands: Grateful Dead, Phish, Blues Traveler, Spin Doctors, Dave Matthews Band, etc.). What many jambands learned a long time before the Internet was available to all, is that free distribution of music can/will pay off in the long run. There is a reason why Phish packed in over 100,000 fans for their new years celebration (which was by far the highest grossing show on 12/31/99 anywhere).

    Everyone has to learn about a band before they can be fans of that band. Tape trading allows new fans to check out bands. It is It is very similar to swapping mp3s (or other formats) on the web, only it has been around a few decades longer. in fact, the web has allowed for quicker and more trades (see links at end of post for more info on this). This has resulted in a boom to the jamband scene.

    So others know, the scene is not made of just the big names you know of (and that many people think of as "hippie dippie bands"). There are in fact hundreds of bands in the scene that range from a more classical jam style to jazz to funk to Latino, etc. There is no one style of jamband (Check out Jambase.com [jambase.com] for dates of a jamband playing in your area).

    What I am trying to say is what the jamband community has known for a long time, allowing your music to be traded free of charge to the public, can pay off in many other ways in the long run (more ticket sales, album sales, merchandise sales, etc.). We are in a new age, where record labels need to learn that a 35 minute CD for $16+ is no longer acceptable, and the fans have the power now to prove this. As it has been said many times before, labels are going to have to figure out new ways of doing business because the old model just doesn't cut it anymore. These labels have to come to a realization, stop fighting the inevitable, and change their models of business. We are in an age where the consumer has the upper hand, and many more companies are learning this the hard way.

    If you are interested in seeing more of the jamband community and how it operates check out these sites (these are only a few of the thousands of sites on the web about/for tape trading, if you are seriously interested in more sites or information just follow the links from these pages):

    etree.org [etree.org] - This is a community dedicated to freely trading tapes (only of bands that allow it) via shorten format (a non-lossy form of compression).
    Sugar Megs [sugarmegs.org] - a community that trades full shows in the mp3 format

  • by Bigboote66 (166717) on Thursday March 23 2000, @10:18AM (#1179753)
    Let's be realistic.

    I don't have the facts on this one - maybe someone else can find them - but personal experience and common sense says that an overwhelming majority of record company revenue comes from people under the age of 20. There's a decent amount to be made on 21-25 year olds, but once you get older than 25, the desire to follow the music scene & buy records drops precipitously. Just looking at the marketing for music tells you this - think of how much teen- and college-oriented music <magazines|promotions|television|commercials|produ ct placement|websites> there is compared to that aimed at the 30+ crowd.

    Music marketing is based on this. Record companies produce the albums/artists they do, because they know the revenue can be SCALED, through both exposure to the right consumers and through lifestyle "propaganda", establishing which acts are hot or not. They're not so interested in acts that they can't leverage though these techniques. You can't build a huge business on "quality" acts that sell on their merits, simply because there's no way to predict (especially before the album is made) what the general public is going to go crazy over.

    But you can predict returns on investment when you apply marketing over a broad range of music, aimed at a demographic that is easily manipulated through ideas of "popularity" and image ("I am what I listen to" is an almost universal identification badge for 18-15 year olds, at least the ones I know). Record companies are about leveraging the somewhat unpredictable, but nearly universal human behavior of listening to music into a predictable stream of revenue based on marketing.

    Now, combine with this the fact that MOST members of the age group in question are a point in their lives where they haven't really developed a strong ethic towards voluntarily giving away their money "just because it's right". Before you all start howling, yeah I know YOU aren't this way and that YOU support the artists and that YOU are happy to pay money for the stuff you think is good, but look around you - teenagers & college students are the prime customers for the record industry, and they're the prime "sharers" of intellectual property. Arguably college students are more motivated to do the right thing, but they also have much less disposable cash. The basic capitalist assumptions of limited resources and unlimited demand probably has no better example.

    The music industry knows who pays their bills - a segment of society who, given the chance, would gladly not pay a dime. Sure, people talk about going out & buying CD's after listening to downloaded MP3's, but how long is that behavior going to last? At some point we're going to reach the price/MB level where portable MP3 players like Rio are cheap enough that you will be able to carry days of music inside them, with a virtual Tower Records of material stored on your hard drive. Music will be, in all likelihood, sold through some medium whose end product will resemble a Rio-type device anyway, so what's the incentive to go out & buy the exact same thing you already have. Altruism? Maybe for the loyal 1% of the music listeners out there, but I don't think record companies will settle for a compromise of 1% of their current revenue.

    The same thing goes for computer games - I spend a lot of time reading gaming-related message boards, and the only people out there talking about pirating software are teenagers & college students. It's no wonder these industries are worried. But to put it in perspective, when Katz talks about the record _industry_ raking in "15 billion" last year, realize that's pretty puny in the world of consumer markets. Philip Morris alone rakes in about 10 billion a year on domestic revenue of tobacco - 20 billion on international revenue; now add all the revenue for RJ Reynolds, plus all the other tobacco companies around the world (a huge number of them are state-owned enterprises), then add cigar revenue & smokeless tobacco, and it pretty much makes music revenue look like a joke. I'm not making any value judgement on tobacco here - just citing an example of other industry revenue.

    I have absolutely no sympathy for the media copiers out there. I'm actually a programmer - I make money for my output, and people who copy my work are not doing me any favors, even if I'm only getting 1/15 of the sale of my work as "profit" (which is a pretty damn high return on investment, when consider how much capital the artist is risking). Let's not forget the artists are receiving a lot more than just money from their record company deals - they're getting fame & exposure (most artists know they could be making better money at day jobs) & the chicks. You hit it big, you get to pick out a runway cutie of your choice).

    So what's the real issue?

    Ironically, should the existing system go down the tubes, and the whole thing becomes a cottage industry of artists selling directly to their audience, I don't think much will change for people who enjoy listening to music. Unlike the other entertainment industries such as movies & computer games, producing the product in music doesn't require a lot of capital - it can still be done by an individual or small group, and boutique recording studios are everywhere now. Movie studios & software publishers still fulfill the role of financiers for their industries, and an "open source" model would probably wreck them - unless you're all happy consuming "Blair Witch" budgeted films for the rest of your life & playing shareware games (both of which have produced good products, but let's face it, we all like to consume big budget entertainment that can only be made if there's some guarantee of a huge audience seeing it, and if the risk of failed ventures can be distributed over the winners).

    But great music can be made & recorded on the cheap. While I was working at Philip Morris, they would periodically jetison product lines that they couldn't leverage anymore - two classic examples were Kraft caramels & Kraft marshmellows. Despite the fact that when people think of caramel cubes, they see the little white Kraft words wrapped around the outside, PM realized that it had become a commodity item, and that their branding could no longer allow them to carry enough premium to make it worthwhile. They sold off that portion of the business (maybe even the brand image) to the generic caramel manufacturers of the world. The media companies are probably going to have to realize that the days of making a billion dollar business out of music marketing will go the way of the buggy whip.
  • by Hrunting (2191) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:42AM (#1179754) Homepage
    The moral of the story is that ideas cannot be kept locked up in boxes, buried in vaults, or kept behind the magic of technology. They cannot be imprisoned.

    Oh great, this has been categorized as Insightful. Wonderful. Let's get a few things straight. Music and movies are not 'ideas'. Pre-scripts, riffs, those may be ideas, but finished and produced tracks and film are not 'ideas'. They are intellectual property. They are actually a product. When someone steals this, they are stealing property, like taking someone author's novel or some company's car design. It's theft of an actual product, not an idea.

    Your analogy is akin to the man walking into a music store, listening to the music, and walking out with an idea for a rock song. If he takes Metallica's Master of Puppets and re-records it and gives it away or selling it without acknowledging that it belongs to Metallica (notice the use of the word 'belongs) and/or paying a fee to use it, it is a crime. It is theft of intellectual property. If, however, he listens to Master of Puppets and then records a song with the same sort of idea, of heart-pumping, hearing-destroying pounding, jamming, and yelling based on his Master of Puppets experience, then yes, he's 'stolen' an idea (what most people call 'influenced').

    People have no respect for musician's and their distributors rights. I want the system changed as much as anyone, but the fact is, there's a right way and a wrong way. Breaking the law is the wrong way. Changing the law is the right way. As soon as the immature brats who find the need to steal music in order to make their point grow up and learn to respect people, the sooner we'll get a system that benefits everyone.
  • Ghost performances (Score:4)

    by eldurbarn (111734) on Thursday March 23 2000, @06:49AM (#1179755)
    I'm not just a geek. I'm also an author and a musician. From that perspective, here's my $0.02:

    I can't see why I should be paid when someone listens to a recording of my music. I just can't see it. I get paid when I perform. People come to hear me play (or I'm paid by the owner of the venue). WHYINHELL should I expect to be paid when I'm not doing anything?

    Recordings of my music may create demand for my live performances. Why should I do anything to reduce the distribution of recordings?

    If I'm selling a recording, I expect to make good the cost of the media. Distribution on the 'net kinda makes that point moot :-)

    My only concern are OTHER artists who play my material in live performance.

  • by Alkaiser (114022) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:26AM (#1179756) Homepage
    What I really like about this RIAA vs. everyone on the planet battle is that they keep crying about how the artists are hurt by MP3 transfer. Well, they posted huge profits...so they aren't being hurt. For a second, let's take a look at the RIAA argument.

    According to TLC in their VH1 "Behind the Music" interview, they got a whopping...56 cents per CD they released. (BTW, the 8% sales tax on the CD ends up being $1.12 on a $13.99 CD...twice what TLC got per album.) So, if their album sold 1 million copies (extremely successful.) they all got, total...$560,000. Or basically $186,667 for T, L and C, respectively. Meanwhile, there's $13,430,000 floating around from sales of THEIR album that they aren't getting. Granted, it does cost 3 cents/CD to press, master, and mass produce a CD.

    The RIAA wants to talk about *US* hurting the artist? Why don't they just GIVE the ARTIST MORE MONEY? The part in Katz' article about artists being able to sell their own music on the web at $1 a CD and make more than they get out of their record contracts is TRUE. (Although Jon really didn't have to rewrite Dune to make 2 or 3 points.)

    I'm a huge They Might Be Giants fan. Recently, they released an album on the web, in MP3 only format. It cost $8. While browsing around on Napster, every once in a while I look for TMBG songs, just to see what's floating out there. Although the producer said the album was "the most successful internet only album ever" I have NEVER found any of the TMBG songs from that album on Napster. (although there are upwards of 3 terabytes of MP3s shared on Napster on a given day now.)

    So why is this? Artist loyalty? Amongst pirates? Yes...it exists. Maybe people are tired of giving upwards of $13 million to bastards like Suge Knight and that music thief Puff Daddy. Hell...Jennifer Lopez couldn't even afford to wear a real dress to the Grammys...she had to wear a curtain. (nobody ever said all side-effects were bad.) I'd much rather pay $8 for an e-album where upwards of half went to support the band than pay $13 to a producer and a half dollar to the group that does the actual work.

    Producers do actually do some hard work, but it's not 24 times as much work as the artists do. I'm all for supporting the artists. But I ain't about supporting some guy sitting on his ass, and milking my groups, bastardizing their work, and then discarding them. It's time for a paradigm shift. It starts with MP3s and e-albums. Support them.
  • Re:You know... (Score:4)

    by 348 (124012) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:19AM (#1179757) Homepage
    Your right. Now that we've done all the complaining, next step is to get involved.

    Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org]
    US House of Representatives [house.gov]
    US Senate [senate.gov]
    Global Internet Liberty Campaign (GILC) [gilc.org]
    Internet Free Expression Alliance (IFEA) [ifea.net]
    Digital Future Coalition (DFC) [dfc.org]
    TRUSTe Privacy Policy Certification Program [truste.org]

  • by dpilot (134227) on Thursday March 23 2000, @08:51AM (#1179758) Homepage Journal
    In order to get their music onto a CD and into a "record" store, musicians sign a contract. THAT's why they can't put their music out on MP3, and all of this distribution stuff is illegal. Let's say I come up with a company called "Net Music Distributers" and sign some musicians to a contract, then the terms of payment and distribution can be named in that contract - including (obviously) Net distribution.

    Music is being considered an idea, and placed on a similar plane to software, which is also an idea. But there's a rub, and you have to go to ESR's "The Magic Cauldron" to get it. 95% of software work is in-house, not for sale. Those 95% of the programmers are being payed for solving problems, not putting software on the shelf. (or other distribution medium.) Inasmuch as they may use, and thereby contribute to free software, it becomes a win-win situation. Their job is done, and there's more free software.

    But music is a bit different. While there is some 'captive music', like weddings and parties, most of the money in the music industry appears to be in the sales of recordings. From what I've heard, even/especially concert tours don't really pay, because they're so expensive to run. They essentially act as non-profit (for the musician, any way) advertisements for the recordings.

    We need a way to pay artists. We just can't lump them in with programmers. The same applies to games, along the ID software model. The engines have been released under GPL, but the artwork is still owned.

    Once we come up with a way to pay artists, and once some artists buy into it, the existing system is just legacy. It's in the contract.

    It's also interesting to note that the RIAA and MPAA are both downright paranoid about electronic distribution. Could it be because they know that they're ripping us off? How about that cassette tape that costs $10, and the CD that's CHEAPER to produce, but costs $16? The movie industry had a clue, once, when they reduced the price of movies from the $80 range down to the $20 range. But they appear to have lost it. The DVDs appear to be taking the lead from the audio CD. When the infrastructure is fully in place, I expect DVDs to cost less than VHS, but the price to always be a premium. How about taking the old computer price/performance curve and applying it the music/movie recording industries? They're bootstrapping off of our technology, and walking a different price/performance line.
  • Re:You know... (Score:4)

    by gilroy (155262) on Thursday March 23 2000, @06:59AM (#1179759) Homepage Journal
    and if we could convince enough artists that it was safe, then the other artists would probably eventually follow, and we could all just quietly move away from big companies, thus making everyone happy. (Except the big companies)

    of course, they're the ones with the cash, and so they probably wouldn't go down quietly, (I think they already sense that the end is near, hence DMCA and its friends)

    That's it, exactly. Notice that the MPAA and RIAA aren't going after the so-called "pirates". They are attacking the format that (they claim) make the "piracy" possible -- even though it has lots of legitimate uses. They are going after the Web sites linking to open software (not copyrighted content), rather than the illegal copies they claim are flooding the market. They are suing people discussing the situation, not people causing it. Why?

    Becuase the MPAA and RIAA, like many animals on the verge of extinction, have an inkling that something's not right. They don't understand the Net but they sense a menace in it to their 20% to 30% overprofits. They understand that this is a cultural war, and that the fight isn't over encryption processes or exchange protocols. It's about the common perception of what is "allowed" and what is not.

    Sadly, too many on the other side don't understand this, and so we concede them every victory in the social and legal arenas...

  • by Zagadka (6641) <zagadka AT xenomachina DOT com> on Thursday March 23 2000, @09:36AM (#1179760) Homepage
    I can't see why I should be paid when someone listens to a recording of my music. I just can't see it. I get paid when I perform. People come to hear me play (or I'm paid by the owner of the venue). WHYINHELL should I expect to be paid when I'm not doing anything?

    What about artists who simply can't do live performances? For example, electronica groups. Galbatron [galbatron.com] has been working for many months on their latest album. Shouldn't they get compensated for that work if others benefit from it? They can't do live performances, but they put huge amounts of effort into producing music that others enjoy listening to. If I want to have a copy of their music to enjoy, aren't I morally obligated to repay them on their terms?

    And the thing is, this applies not just to music, but other forms of art as well. Take visual art. How can someone who makes digital imagery (stills, or animations, movies...) make a living by doing "live performances"? What about software developers? These are all really special cases of the same thing: digital media.

    And now that I've brought up software developers, I know someone is going to say "look how well open source software is doing. People are making money off that...". Yes, people are. Distributors like RedHat are. Not developers though. RedHat is like a record label, in a sense (except musicians at least try and get money from their labels, while software developer just hand over their work for free). Look at the ideas Katz suggests. A lot of those ideas can very easily be economically controlled by labels, just as open source software is economically controlled by distributors like RedHat. Think about it: if anyone can distribute the same data, it's the one with the best distribution channel that wins. Technological superiority is no longer an issue, because if you improve your product, your competitor will have it out the door the next day in a prettier box than you. If you're a little guy, people won't even know about the cool stuff you've added until the bigger distributors have made it available.

    But I digress...

    I believe that when someone does some work, and others benefit from that work, the people who benefit have a moral obligation to compensate the provider on their terms. If you don't like their terms, go elsewhere. That said, I do disagree with DMCA, an I think that both the RIAA and MPAA are getting out of hand.

    While I do think it's wrong to keep an MP3 of a song that you don't have rights to (ie: didn't pay for, on the producer's terms), I think it should be fine to have MP3's of songs that you do have rights to (no matter what channels you got the MP3's through). That's fair use. It also seems that it should count as fair use when you download an MP3 of a song you don't own rights to, but you just want to listen to it a couple of times to see if you like it.

    Likewise, the whole DeCSS thing seems pretty ridiculous to me. Yes, I think people shouldn't be copying DVD's and giving them to all of their friends. But if I buy a DVD, and want to play it on my Linux box, or over at my friend's house (even if my friend lives in a different region) I shouldn't be prevented from doing that. Heck, if I want to copy all of my DVD's to my 40Tb RAID in my basement (heh, I wish...) then I should be allowed to do that.

    Despite the fact that I share the "common /. viewpoint" when it comes to fair use, I don't think that I should be able to keep copies of, or distribute copies of, things that I don't have to rights to. That means music, movies, or whatever. If people want to give their work away for free, that's great. But forcing them to do so isn't right. This is my big gripe about RMS, incidently. (well, that, and his ego) While I do think that free software is wonderful, which is why I've contributed to several projects, I don't think software developers should be forced to release their code as free if they don't want to. If you write the code, you can choose the terms. If I don't like your terms, I'll go elsewhere.

    Heck, I'd write more free software myself, if someone would tell me a viable business model. I've been actively looking for one for a couple of years now. I still haven't found a business model for open source software where the developers actually make money, rather than the middle-men (distros). If you can think of such a model, it could probably be applied to other forms of digital media as well. The problem is, if you ask for money at virtually any point, most of the /. whiners will complain that "it isn't free (like speech)!", which has effectively become a euphemism for "it isn't free (like beer)". [sigh]
  • by H3lldr0p (40304) on Thursday March 23 2000, @07:25AM (#1179761) Homepage
    There has been one overriding and ingnored point throughout all of these debates. One that has not been discussed because then we might have to forget about our all important internet and focus on what the real world is doing.

    And that is simply that this is not a new problem.

    Everything that has been talked about here, from the inadequacies of the notion of IP to the woefully anti-consumer laws that have sprung up to protect it, but it is nothing new. We have seen people, and even Katz himself, quote Jefferson from over two centuries ago. And yet nobody picks up that this is not new.

    The Internet has not caused this problem, and quite frankly, the Internet is not going to solve this problem.

    So far every solution proposed has been that some sort of change is going to have to happen. From the one extreme of simply giving up the various ideas of property through the spectrum of changing the ways we pay artists and thinkers to the opposite extreme of creating technological ways to make sure everybody pays no matter the thought used. Yet, none of these will be satisfactory to everybody invovled.

    So here is what I propose.

    Let's go back to the tired and true method that was used centuries ago. Patronship.

    Why does this work? Well, people (the public at large) got to view/hear/touch/whatever the works the artists and thinkers produced. The artists/thinkers invovled got paid, a roof over their heads and a creative outlet. Everybody was more or less happy with the arragnement. If, as an artist/thinker didn't like your patron. You put yourself up as work for hire and ran out the time with your patron. Then you got the patron you wanted, and if you were important enough, your new patron would give you whatever you wanted. The patrons got the prestige of saying that you worked for them, and mostly fell overthemselves keeping you happy.

    And in the end, the public could take your ideas, apprecate them, and build off of them if they could afford (in terms of material, not licencing) if they so desired.

    Think about it: How many current artists have been inspired by works like the Cistine (sp?) chapple? How many by Beethoven and Handel? That's the system they used. It worked for them.
  • 56 replies beneath your current threshold.
(1) | 2 | 3