Phones And Skype Get Together

An anonymous reader writes "MSNBC has a look at some of the interesting gadgets that will be available for purchase now that Skype has published instructions on how to build the service into phones." From the article: "We saw one other innovative product at CES that is definitely worth a Skype addict's consideration. The Skype Wi-Fi phone, coming this March from Netgear, is basically a Skype cell phone. It connects to any wireless network, letting users make Skype calls completely unconnected to a PC or phone line. If it works as well as it appeared to when Netgear CEO Patrick Lo demonstrated it during a press conference by calling Skype founder Niklas Zennstrom, the little service from Luxembourg will have officially escaped from the confines of the personal computer."

Question:

Eventually, we may all live in wi-fi enabled areas, with constant free internet access. It's already happening in some cities. If wireless IP phones take off, it's reasonable to assume we'll all be able to make free, unlimited phone calls to each other because everyone will have access.

Will this happen, or will someone (e.g. the telcos) force regulation upon it? It seems lately that new technology that frees us up ends up being unreasonably restricted.

Re:Question:

Yes, calling landlines will always be chargeable (though with Skype et al it's all local rates). The point I was exploring was that when we ALL have wifi phones there'll be no need to charge at all! One has to wonder whether the phone companies will "allow" that when the technology becomes ubiquitous.

Re:Question:

It will probably be quite similar to email taking customers away from the post office.

I don't think postal service is a good comparison, both because there are things the postal service can do that e-mail cannot, and because e-mail *has* taken a lot of customers away from the post office.

The postal service has two important abilities that e-mail does not. First, it can deliver physical objects. Second, it provides reliability and traceability for important communications, particularly when registered mail is used.

Where those things don't matter, though, e-mail has largely replaced snail mail. There's a segment of the population that doesn't have or use e-mail, but it's shrinking (and aging) and will eventually disappear. Even among low-income people, e-mail use is the norm among the younger population.

In the case of phone service, traditional phones do not have any similar advantages over VOIP. Sure, VOIP has some technical limitations at present -- many Internet connections aren't good enough to make it work well, and the 911 issue isn't fully resolved -- but those are technical problems with technical solutions. Largely, though, VOIP is a fully-functional, drop-in replacement for landline service (and, with enough WiFi hotspots, for cell service) that is more featureful and cheaper.

So, no, I don't the growth and usage of VOIP will in any way parallel the history of e-mail.

There is one element of e-mail's history that may affect VOIP, though: spam. The telephonic equivalent of spam, telemarketing, is pretty well managed at the moment. It's mildly annoying, but thanks to the fact that the telecommunications industry is centralized in a few companies, it can be regulated and managed with things like the "Do Not Call" lists and other rules about who telemarketers can call, and when. The most important factor that keeps telemarketing from being too much of annoyance, though, is cost. In particular it's far too expensive to conduct it from other countries in order to sidestep the regulations.

Both of those elements disappear with pure VOIP calls. Not only would VOIP spam be dirt cheap (especially with recorded calls -- no need to pay a person to talk to the targets), but it would be cost-effective to do it from nations where regulatory force cannot be applied.

However, VOIP is young enough that we have a chance to implement anti-spam technology into the foundations of the technology. We understand the dynamics of spam pretty well from the e-mail world, and people are already talking about what we should do to prevent SIP spam. If SIP spam can be avoided or minimized, then I think VOIP can be a perfect replacement for traditional phone service, unlike e-mail, which can never quite replace postal service.

Fond Memories

Information transfer is now relatively free and fast.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Given the lobbying currently going on by the telecommunications companies, and the relative perceived ignorance/apathy of Internet users, I think we're quickly racing towards a future where how much you pay directly affects not only the speed at which you can get information (as it does currently) but also your quality-of-service and connection priority.

You already pay extra if you want a static IP. You pay more than that if you want a synchronous connection where you can send and receive at the same speed. In some cases more than that, if you want certain ports unblocked so you can run a server. The 'two tier' internet already exists in terms of who can distribute information by running a server and who can't; eventually we're going to have that on the receiving side as well. You want to open a ton of connections and do P2P? Extra fee. You want a low-latency connection for doing streaming video or internet telephony? Definitely an extra fee.

I have a feeling that at some point, we're going to look back at these early days of 'all-you-can-eat' Internet access for all, with a certain nostalgia. We're already looking back fondly on the days when anyone could set up a server on their cable modem in their basement.

If you want a look at where the future is headed, take a look at Australia. They used to have unlimited-access internet plans there, but they practically don't exist anymore (I'm told), at least at the consumer level. Instead there are plans with varying levels of bandwidth/transfer caps.

Going forward, once the packet filtering systems get a little better and a little more widespread, you're going to start seeing plans that limit transfer by type: you get unlimited transfer to your ISP's "preferred" VoIP carrier, but if you want to use your own, that'll be $15 extra a month. Same with streaming video and internet radio. "Unknown" and encrypted traffic will be capped or throttled -- so don't try to just tunnel it.

While on the backbones we may have a "two-tier Internet," to the consumer there are going to be many subtle gradations that make up the tiers. It's going to be just like a cell phone: the most basic service costs one thing, but everything extra you want to do with it costs more.

I don't think there's really any good way to avoid this. The Internet is becoming bigger and bigger business, and at the same time the companies that effectively control it are under more and more pressure to find new ways of squeezing revenue from their assets. Given that the government is pretty toothless when it comes to dealing with large corporations and their lobbying arms, I don't think that our children will have anywhere near the unlimited access to information that we've gotten used to lately. At least, not unless we buy it for them.

Re:LIPA and Govt Security

If Skype gets anywhere close to mainstream it will be forced to provide mandatory legal intercept without any need for inventing fantom associations. This will be regardless of its use for drug dealing or not.

And here comes the most interesting bit. In order to provide legal intercept capabilities it will have to provide law enforcement access via a remote control interface to computers serving as supernodes in the P2P network. These computers are not even owned by Skype and may be outside the jurisdiction of the party requesting intercept. In fact intercepting on them may be illegal in the country where they are located. This is bound to get very entertaining at some point sooner or later.

And by the way using specially dedicated nodes for legal intercept only will not work because one of the requirements for legal intercept in telephony is that it should not be noticeable to either party in the conversation. A node located in a strange place will very happily show up in the netstat on both Linux and Windows and writing a utility which shows which address block is the supernode you are connected to is a piece of cake.

Most Important /. Question

But does it play ogg?

=)

Picture and info

More about the phone (including a link to a large, print-quality image) can be seen at Netgear's site: http://tools.netgear.com/skype/ [netgear.com]

Any sip account

I'd love to have a phone like this that I could set up to use a sip server. Then I could use my "Home phone" from any WiFi point. Get enough WiFi points and I could even trash my good ol' cell phone. Well, almost. ;-)

Re:Any sip account

You mean like:

http://www.utstar.com/Solutions/Handsets/WiFi/ [utstar.com]
or
http://www.vocera.com/ [vocera.com] (star trek - like)
or
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/ZyXEL+P2000W [voip-info.org]

All are wifi SIP phones and work well with Asterisk

Re:Any sip account

Yeah, but if you have a PocketPC based PDA, you can already run Skype on it.

No need to have a SIP service (which may/not gateway into your asterisk box).

Virtuous side effects

If we're lucky, these WIFI cell-phones will embarrass WIFI providers into actually making their networks useable. As things stand, a WIFI cell-phone will suck utterly compared with a "real" cell.

What we need is...

Someone just needs to write an open-source SIP/IAX Skype gateway so I can use my SIP phone (now available super-cheap) w/Skype. I see there is one [rsdevs.com] out there, but it's windows only, thirty bucks, and closed source.

Asterisk support for Skype, now there would be something!

Re:What we need is...

Definately. I'm still waiting.

There's quite a bounty now to have a skype channel in Asterisk. Up to $1545 USD now.

WEP Encryption...

...AFAIK we should be going to WPA/WPA2 because there are a couple of nice vulns in WEP.

The site states though "nobody will be able to be listening in"...

Re:WEP Encryption...

The site states though "nobody will be able to be listening in"...

This is because Skype already has its own encryption layer. An attacker might be able to do something annoying once they crack the WEP encryption (such as interjecting packets), but they won't be able to listen in to your conversation without then breaking the Skype packet encryption (which is probably stronger than WEP).

However, I do share a general annoyance with devices that don't support WPA/WPA2. My wireless network is completely WPA2 based, and I have one device which does, at best, WEP. My current solution has been to disallow this device (a Palm Tungsten C) from connecting to my network by continuing to run WPA2, which is an annoyance (as it means I can't use its WiFi functionality in my home). Device manufacturers need to wake up to the fact that WPA and WPA2 are a reality, and that their devices need to support these modern standards alongside WEP.

Yaz.

One problem....

There's no WPA support according to the FAQ. Also, how does it handle captive portals? Maybe it has a built in web browser, but I can't find any mention of it.

Maybe we need to convince more hotspot providers to allow free skype calls!

Anyway, wifi is still pretty rare around me, unless you want to 'borrow' home users connections, and thats getting quite dicey now.

Darren.

Oh, well...

I knew I should have moved from Germany to Luxembourg. Smaller country == less political-assholes-that-like-to-restrict-shit-for- no-official-reason.

Now I'll have to wait for 10 years before they let us have it.

new song.

"ding dong, telecoms are dead!"

Who's crapping their pants now?

step 1. Old telecom companies notice their revenue dropping like stones.
step 2. old telecom companies attempt to preserve unsustainable revenue streams by limiting the bandwidth of competitors on their networks
step 3. Customers sue over equal access to networks
step 4. company such as Google kicks their asses by offering free, unrestricted wifi in every major city around the world
step 5. old telecom companies stop whining and do what they should've done in the first place

couldn't they have saved the trouble?

Problem

There is a problem with this because, underneath it all, Skype is still a proprietary, closed technology. This creates an unacceptable barrier to anyone looking to enter the marketplace: competition is not fair and free.

It's absolutely inconceivable that in a civilised country, anyone should have to licence "intellectual property" from anyone else just to do their job. This is nothing short of privatised taxation.

The telephone network -- indeed, all public infrastructures, be they roads, railways, sewers, power lines or hospitals -- exists for the benefit of Society at Large, all of us, not just those who pay money to private corporations; and it is the place of governments -- as our elected representatives whose wages we pay -- to ensure that everyone has the ability to benefit therefrom.

Re:Problem

It's absolutely inconceivable that in a civilised country, anyone should have to licence "intellectual property" from anyone else just to do their job. This is nothing short of privatised taxation.

That's odd -- last I checked, I can call SkypeIn users from my GPS Cell phone, the POTS pay phone up the street, and from my Vonage account.

There are standards in this world for telephone systems, and Skype has to follow them in order to be accessable both to and from the rest of the world. It isn't as if Skype is the only telephony solution around, or like anyh Government is forcing its citizens to replace their existing telephony technologies for Skype.

Skype being propretiary is a problem, but not for the reasons you give. If you want to compete against Skype, it's not a problem -- Gizmo [gizmoproject.com] seems to be making a go of it without any serious problems. So long as Skype intergrates with the rest of the International telephony network, there is no problem -- competing with them won't be impossible at all, and won't require you to license anything from them.

Also on Skype's side is that at least they appear ready and willing to license their technology to a variety of hardware manufacturers.

The big problems with Skype being propretary are:

1. Platforms Skype Ltd. isn't interested in targeting won't be able to connect to Skype's network (at least without some software developer licensing the protocols from them). If you're on OS/2 and want to run Skype, you're SOL, and always will be.
2. You have to trust Skype Ltd's security analysis of their encryption and associated protocols. Much of Skype's protocols are currently "security by obscurity", and while they may well be up to the task, it's hard to prove this point due to a lack of source code,
3. You have to count on Skype Ltd. to improve the product over time, and have no ability to do so yourself.

This might come as a shock to some, but some people are okay with such things. Personally it's not for me -- I have Skype installed for those times when I must communicate with other Skype users (although given the choice I prefer iChat AV, or the X-Pro softphone that is attached to my Vonage account when I need to call a normal phone system user from my laptop while away from home), but otherwise wouldn't use it as my primary telephone system. But not all people are me, and not everybody cares so much about the use of open standards, so long as they get what they pay for and the cost is low.

So in conclusion I agree witth you that closed protocols are bad, but in this case not for the reasons you have given. The underlying telephone system is sufficiently open that any Skype-competitor can arrive on the scene and doesn't have to pay Skype a single penny for the privledge.

Yaz.

Skype and linux?

Skype under linux completely sucks. It seems after ebay took over skype, they chucked out the support for linux so much so that it doesnt work at all. Check this out http://forum.skype.com/viewtopic.php?t=32290&sid=8 0e30a3a5027922776d84bb7906d8bf1 [skype.com]

Skype, wake me up when you have fixed the audio bug, otherwise go to the DOGS

Calls using "Wi-Fi phones"

I puchased an HP ipaq 6315 a year ago which was one of the first mobile phones to have classic cell phone service, GPRS internet, WiFi and bluetooth all in the same device. Here's what I've observed and learned, the first of which relates directly to Wi-Fi phone calling:

    1) I tried making WiFi calls with Skype running on the MS PocketPC OS 2002. I *was* able to make a Skype call over WiFi... but I couldn't really hear much more than a word or two from the other person and lots of garble. Basically it was disappointingly unusable. I am not sure whether the slow 3-400MHz CPU is the problem or the nature of the non-optimizal internet connection and signalling overhead (I suspect the former). But I tried repeatedly, and I tried to move to be closer to the WiFi source with no positive effect. So this may not work great on mobile phones today. YMMV and "tomorrow" is a different story of course.

    2) The cell phone seems to end up in wierd states that need rebooting. This happened once every few months with my Palm-based Treo, but has annoyingly, and ironically according to Microsoft stereotype, definitely been a once a week-type issue with my PocketPC phone. *Most* annoying is when it happens when you're on a call and you get a second inbound call and then system then gives you an unending series of dialog boxes in confusion. (By rebooting I really mean a "soft reset" where you need to push a thin object into a hole.) To be fair to Microsoft, it may be true that some fraction of those hangs might be due to bugs in the apps that lead to a platform-level hang. *But*, I can't cut MS too much slack because the MS platform doesn't give me a way to kill/restart the app it seems. (Note: I haven't had time to spend the hours necessary to research and get to the bottom of this.)

    3) The cell-phone seems to lie about signal strength at times; it might show full signal but then right after I dial, it shrinks to two bars. I thought it might be a limitation of how polling/powersaving works, but in any case, I've found that I can't necessarily trust the "bar" ratings, even when I'm stationary, to describe signal strength until I actually make a call. I have zero idea whether this is caused by my phone, or just random emi interference, or the carrier or whether others have this same issue.

    4) My favorite feature on both my Treo Palm and the PocketPC phone has been the ability to sync contacts on my phone with contacts on my PC (in MS Outlook, which I use for contacts but not for email.)

    5) My second favorite feature has been the free downloadable musician tools available on the platform. (The selection was stronger on the Palm-based Treo.) I.e. metronome, tuner, and guitar chord charts. It's just very cool, since I always have my cell phone with me, that I also thus always have guitar chord charts in a pinch.

YMMV but here are the lessons I shelled out too much bucks to learn so I pass them along to my fellow Slashdotters.

Cheers,
    --LP

Office VoIP WiFi

I wonder how long before offices around the world will start using WiFi-based phones backed by * instead of regular, wired PBX.

Skype for Nintendo DS

I am suprised that no development house (or Nintendo themselves) has yet to start developing Skype for the DS (or have they?).

Handheld wi-fi device already in the hands of millions
+
application with an installed user base of million
=
Millions of happy people talking to each other over SkypeDS!!

....not to mention many more units of the DS sold!

/yes, we know that Nintendo already showed off a Skype-ish application with Wario on screen prior to the DS release.
/yes, we know about DSspeak but alas it doesn't have the installed userbase of Skype.

Small EU Country Always = Luxembourg?

I keep seeing comments that Skype is "Luxembourg-based". Skype's legal headquarters are (were, pre-Ebay?) based in Luxembourg for tax reasons, but just about nothing else is as far as I understood it. Estonians wrote the code, and it's touted as a big success story in Estonia. The co-founders are a Swede and a Dane. Newsweek might see minimal legal headquarters as being the basis to call it its base, but from a Slashdot readership's perspective, you'd think you'd want to know where the developers are, and what they're doing now.

It's probably safest to say "EU-based". But I think Estonia at least needs a nod.

Free Skype?

Is there any project to create Free Software application compatible with Skype protocol? I don't like Skype interface, and can't find any alternative UI...

Warning...

Maybe all of these companies should be a little more careful about jumping on the wifi bandwagon. Although wifi is now quite mature what would happen to all these wifi solutions if say it was found to cause cancer, loss of hair or whatever, well the answers to that would be there would be a mad rush to go back to wires for the well informed and then it would slowly start a rewiring revolution. I'm not saying that will happen but if it did it would be devastating. Also may it be worth companies investing phones that no replace our landlines rather than mobiles, to be honest mobiles are generally used for business of for calls that have to be made. Whereas landlines I find are more for calling relatives and friends in the evening at home. Business landlines I believe have the same kind of usage as mobiles. The other benefit to making a land line replacement is that they tend to left on always as they are connected to the mains, so if you coupled that with and answering machine, and a small LCD screen for quickly texting or sending email then they would probably sell like hotcakes.

skype LD & 411 free

Free 411 and LD on Skype [skype.com]

Just passing this along the information superhighway.

Use with WiFi hotspots

Haven't seen much mention of this so far.

These wireless handsets, as has been previously pointed out, have been available for SIP networks for quite some time, along with decent wired handsets which also don't require a PC to be switched on. One good (albeit expensive) wireless SIP phone is the Hitachi WIP-5000 which has regular firmware updates including support for new features like WPA.

The main drawback with most of these phones, though, is not just the lack of support for new security standards like WPA (many, like the skype phone, support WEP only). The biggest problem, at least here in the UK (I dunno if it's different elsewhere), is that most of the wi-fi hotspot providers do not run encryption at all. Instead, they have an open network but require you to login through a webpage, in order to bill you. This technology is fine for laptops and PDAs with web browsers but makes such phones utterly useless* except when you're at home or you're lucky enough to have a workplace which supports standard wi-fi.

I'm sure someone will come up with a wifi sip phone with a browser eventually (Nokia's new E-series supports wi-fi, so that's promising) but, at the moment, the handsets are very expensive and not being able to use them at most UK wifi hotspots is a major drawback.

Sam.

* In theory, you could clone the MAC address to a laptop, sign in with that and then swop to the phone, but that's obviously far too much hassle for real usage.

Note a coder, not complaining....

...I'm just waiting for a skype.conf to appear in my /etc/asterisk directory. ;)

Fudge the phone

I'm serious. The future is the iPod.

It already has a H.264 decoder. All it needs now is a H.264 encoder, one of those swanky macbook cameras in the top and wi-fi card and we got ourselves the ultimate iChat client device.

The Value is In the Network AND Not in Skype

There are a few major challenges that Skype faces and will likely relegate it to a popular but, not ubiquitous application.

1. Quality of service from Public Wi-Fi - There is no guarantee the access point won't be saturated or have sufficient bandwidth to support the number of users trying to use the acces point.
2. Carrier Grade WiFi infrastructure will be owned by those who will take a dim outlook on having their income eaten by free calls. Traffic will be "shaped" to make the quality less than existing wireless options.
3. Skype to Skype is free...Skype Out [skype.com] is not so you need to pay to access POTS lines.
4. Not everyone who is attracted to Skype will be willing to pay to access Land Lines.
5. As has been mentioned, Skype is a proprietary application, thus there will always be someone looking to build a better mouse trap and keep this segment of the market fragmented.
6. Voip is not new and most carriers route their calls through a VOIP infrastructure to reduce their costs. Consumers can get cheap calls now through long distance calling plans and cards. In North America local calls are free and long distance can be had for about the same as Skype out.
7. PDA+Voip+Wifi [blogspot.com] can be done without Skype.

Gizmo Project.. any of you guys use this?

Its like Skype only uses SIP. It also includes free voicemail which is kinda cool. Mails a .wav file with the message to the email message you have associated with your SIP Id. It also supports unlimited conference participants where as skype only supports someone hosting with 4 other individuals. You can purchase a SIP router to tie it into your home telephone system for as much as one of those Skype phones costs. Its by the same guy who started Linspire. THe only thing that I don't like is that the linux package support is wonky. I don't suppose they care about other distro's besides Linspire using it without a hassle. Another neat feature is the party line functionality. You can use a special SIP number starting with 1-222 for a unlimited (i'm sure there must be one but its big) number of participants and doesn't require anyone to host the call (think Team Speak replacement).

The real question: Dynamic Network Switching?

No one has yet to answer this question, but will these phones automatically know when one wireless network is out of range and switch to another? If no then this product is bunk. It's only good if you're staying in one place.

A mouse that doubles as a skype phone..

The article also forgot to mention a CES highlight from YapperNut: The YapperMouse [yappernut.com]. A USB mouse that doubles as a skype phone for $39.95

Looks promising imo...

This service is not free (as in beer)...

Although it isn't that expensive and the cost [skype.com] is apparently applicable only if you are calling someone who doesn't have Skype. I suspect that somebody will be paying more in the future if their is wide-spread use of this service.