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Watching DVDs in Linux HOWTO 398

IceFox writes "Last week CSS Disk encryption was cracked. Soon after the data encryption was cracked. With some hagling I got everything working and was able to watch DVDs in Linux. Sound, Video, the works. I wrote up a how to for anyone else that cares to do it." Its not quite ready for prime time. No sound and vid at the same time. Update by roblimo: Jens Axboe sent a link to his page, which contains additional Linux/DVD info.
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Watching DVDs in Linux HOWTO

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  • But we aren't talking about theft, we are talking about duplication.
  • by Cariboo ( 20973 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:56PM (#1574521) Homepage
    I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I think everyone here is missing what DVD encrytion is all about. IIRC the movie studio's don't give a damn whether you copy thier product or not. The idea behind encrypting the data is so that you can't make an exact duplicate of the movie. You can copy the thing as much as you want. The movie producers problem is that with the ability to digitally copy almost anything there is no degradation, a 20th generation copy is just as good as the 1st generation copy. With DVD we now have the ability to have almost the same experience at home as we do in the theater. This is not a copy protection issue, but rather a picture quality issue. If anyone has read the copyright notice at the start of the movie,instead of fast forwarding through it, you'll note that you can copy the movie for your own usage as much as you want, as long as it is not for financial gain.

    So just to state the obvious, copy to your hearts content, just don't expect the same quality as the origional
  • I'm not saying this is necessarily the reason, but in 1948, making a copy of a book was expensive. In order for a publisher to publish his book, he would either had to have footed the bill himself (probably not something he was willing to do) or give them exclusive rights to it, so that they felt they had a reasonable chance of making a profit off of it. So distributing it freely would have, in essence, meant not distributing at all. Back then most people probably never even considered not getting their work published if they wanted people to read it.
    Today, an author who is not interested in making money off his work can just put it up on a web page, and let people read it for free. Of course, this make it inaccessible to those who don't use the net, and it is also harder to get people to notice it. The average bookstore probably has only a few thousand titles, often organised in sections, whereas there are hundreds of millions of web pages, and they're almost completely unorganised.
  • However, this is so far the industry's best effort at a universal copy-resistant format; as the tide turns our way, it might hopefully be their last.

    Some companies (seemingly led by Sony) have come up with an even more evil scheme called DTCP. In DTCP, each box has its own key (and for software, presumably each computer might get its own key), and The Bad Guys(tm) circulate a blacklist of keys that have been compromised. If a blacklisted system tries to talk to another system, it will be denied. This means they can lock out VCRs and individual copies of the software remotely.
  • But right now?

    A) Get your widgets! $20
    B) $2
    A) $20.
    B) $10.
    A) $20.
    B) Forget it, I have options. I'll not listen to it or I'll go copy it. At least when I copy it, I do get to know the artist and if I really enjoy it will likely subsequently buy further articles, and I get the enjoyment of actually getting the entertainment. Both sides benefit, to a certain degree. Not monetarily, perhaps. But money isn't everything.

    And you're quite correct about the voluntary payment. That model has been proven to hardly ever work, but then, one might argue that it's never been implemented properly, either. :)

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Software decoding is fine and dandy as long as you only want to watch movies on your monitor. I still haven't seen a video card with TV-out that matches the output quality of a hardware decoder.
  • "When I go to the theatre, I want to pay money to be entertained."

    That's really beside the point. You are being offered a license to view a movie for a price. Entertainment isn't guaranteed. If that is too risky a proposition, you need not pay. You may find alternative entertainment. If you view the movie without paying, you have comitted theft, have you not?
  • I've got a "real" player hooked up to my entertainment system.

    No point in buying a DVD unless you're going to watch it properly, not on some dinky 15" monitor with crappy PC speakers ;).

    (yes, I know some people have ungodly sized monitors, and a rarer few have a good quality sound system hooked up to their puter...).
  • I'm talking about theft - you're talking about duplication. I say that's the same thing - you say it isn't.
  • I don't agree on this matter, I tried several software decoders and I was very impressed about the Cinematics 99 engine. I was able to get a very crisp and clear and vibrant video play with it on my old Intel 740 and OC-ed Celeron 450(they use some kind of techniek to put a quadrupple buffer into your video memory), not really highend hardware these days and I think under Linux it could even be done better... eg. WinDVD says, they are only a small team of young coders, so that's the only ingredient you'll need...
  • by Keeper ( 56691 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:19PM (#1574531)
    The Matrix DVD isn't buggy, rather the players themselves arn't up to spec (ie: the manufacturers cut features to make a shipdate, because "who will ever use that overlay feature?").

    If the disc were buggy all of the players would exibit the same problems. Seeing how one thing is broken on one player, while another is broken on another indicates (to me) the player is broken in these instances.

    For what it's worth the Panasonic A-110 is one of the few players I've seen that play it properly.

    I'm still impressed that they used every last byte that the disc could hold... all 4.3gigs :).
  • 21. Cohesive level of componentisation thru ActiveX and COM.
    22. Decent webbrowser (yes had to say it again)
    23. Visual Studio, and other COMPLETE RAD and IDEs.
    24. A decent API for install and settings. Huge *rc files and XF86Config files are lame compared to a centralized registry IMHO. Even corba etc needs one.
    25. GUI that doesn't crash as much as XFree.
  • Individuals can certainly have it both ways. If I stop paying for CDs and movies, the industry wouldn't even notice. Whether I copy the things that they produce illegally or just abstain from them makes absolutely no difference to them, therefore I can both benefit from the big budget stuff and not pay. If everyone did this, it wouldn't work, of course, but I make negligible difference, so I don't need to worry about that.
    In case someone wants to say "but what if everyone did that": that's irrelevant. Whether I pay for my entertainment or not does not have an effect on whether other people do so. That, plus the fact that my contribution has negligible effect on the industry, makes that argument irrelevant.
    Personally, I see no problem in copying things without paying the authors. However, if you appreciate what they produce, it is a good idea to give them money for it, so they can continue doing it. Also it is a way of showing your gratitude, though that can be done without paying money. Additionally, if other people see that those artists get money for what they do, they might be willing to try themselves. But that doesn't make it a moral imperative to pay. People may disagree with this, but that doesn't make them right. The fact that copyright infringement is illegal doesn't make it morally wrong, either, just illegal. There is no such thing as absolute morals.
  • No. Theft would be if I stole it from the movie store. I can view it without paying by going to a friends house. That is legal, is it not? Say me renting a seat in the theatre is worth 2 dollars. Then I should pay maybe 2 dollars for the ticket. If I want to donate to the producers, that is my business and my business alone.

  • I just want to clarify that I'm the problem and nothing else. Does the DVD for Linux work with SCSI DVDROM's?
  • The solution is simple, then. Only view/take 40 year old media!

    I was wondering when you'd get around to saying that you are only playing Devil's Advocate!
  • Just to be stickle: It's copyright infringement when I copy indiscriminately, until 40 years when it's no longer copyrighted. At which point I can copy as much as I please. :)

    But that's external to the arguments at hand. If I buy a license to get a movie, I should not have to pay until after I have seen the movie. Entertainment is not guaranteed, so why should my money be guaranteed? And it seems inappropriate to boycott the movie industry when I can vindicate my arguments by inflicting copyright infringement upon them.

    Which, I might add, does give them exposure of actors, advertisements, directors, etc., to which I might later on be biased towards or against. And as such, they have gained something by me watching their film.

  • 26. AutoCAD r14, 2000
    27. Various job-essential proprietary software packages designed to work exclusively w/ any one of m$'s office titles. (i.e. Access)

    :(

    I expect to see more "portability" w/ improvements to wine and vmware...

    Here's to the future and os stability!
  • by Patrik Nordebo ( 170 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @11:05PM (#1574541)
    Componentisation with ActiveX and COM? So they are the end-all, be-all of component technology, using something else is not an option?
    We have lots of complete IDEs. RAD tools aren't that common, but IMHO they suck anyway. Xemacs is a great IDE. Then there are KDevelop, Code Crusader, CodeWarrior, GNUpro, xwpe, RHIDE, and probably a lot of other things that I don't recall at the moment. Exactly what is it that Visual Studio has that these are missing, beyond GUI builders?
    As for configuration, why do we need a registry? A registry is in no way necessary for GUI config tools, so that's not an argument.
    A more stable XFree86 would be nice, but given that it has crashed 4 times in 5 years for me, it's not that huge an issue. And with a bit of luck, XFree86 4 might be more stable.
    A decent web browser we definitely need. And I think Mozilla will provide us with one, though it's a while till that's finished.
    • Gimp - need I say more? Check out Linux.com [linux.com] to see what can be done in this excellent piece of software (blatent plug) also check out tigert.gimp.org [gimp.org]
    • StarOffice, WordPerfect, etc.
    • Netscape, Mutt, and others...
    • Loki, id, EpicGames, and more.
    • DVD is starting to work in Linux (and there are DVD players for TVs btw)
    • USB mice work in 2.2.x, 2.3.x has much better USB support
    • Cut and paste works great here w/ all apps... select w/ left mouse button and paste w/ the middle one
    • Red Hat and others have great installers, Debian has an excellent thing called "apt" to install programs and more after initial installation (and you can even upgrade your whole system in place)
    • IBM has ViaVoice ported to Linux, and typing is still faster. *g*

  • by Anonymous Coward
    If you should buy such a box in California and it's promised interoperability fails due to this blacklist, you can sue the manufacturer for selling you a defective product (Not to mention false advertising).
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Opps forgot the part about 600Mhz machine is required for that min. :)
  • Why is IP an abomination? Your argument doesn't hold for physical things. Why is IP different?

    When you justify theft of IP with "that's life", consider that others would justify their theft of all your worldly possessions with the same argumet. Is their argument valid? In an a society without ethics, yes. But in an ethical society, both arguments are invalid.
  • Any idea where the main bottleneck will be? Is an area where some of the MMX and related X86 extensions (and the equivalant PPC) might make a difference? or is this more of a memory/bandwith issue?
  • by tietokone-olmi ( 26595 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @02:42AM (#1574552)

    From what I've heard, the decoder doesn't support the YUV conversion stuff in many modern graphics cards yet. So the code is pretty fast, for not-really-optimized C. So when the Xfree86 people come up with an extension to support hardware-based YUV conversion, things are going to get lots better with any format that requires a YUV conversion pass to play.

    And by the way, you can pretty much forget about $free{"beer"} decoder card software; from what I've heard, the DVD license comes on a per-developer fee and a hefty NDA. Which means that even if Creative wanted, they couldn't release any critical parts of the DVD "standard", even if the cat is already out of the basket.

  • Lobbying is not the same as law. You've got time :)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 31, 1999 @02:47AM (#1574554)
    Actually 3 cryptoanalytical attacs against the various CSS ciphers have been produced in the last week alone.

    1) 2^^16 attack on the CSS cipher itself Requiring 6 known plaintext bytes [openprojects.net]

    2) A 2^^17 attack on the key generation, that will yield a deluge of player keys in a matter of minutes ( such as the randum nubers ). read here [openprojects.net]

    3) Finaly A third crack that will decrypt a DVD without even knowing a single player key. This attack [openprojects.net] is more complex (2^^24)but will give a valid key in less than 20 seconds on a decent machine.

    In short the CSS system was poorly designed, and has now been thuroughly been demolished.

  • Oh, 1984 doublespeak
    BTW, have you noticed that the way they get people to talk is fascinatingly doublespeak.

    Freedom is Slavery, Duplication is Theft, Words are Property.
  • I must say: it's a start. But there's way much more work ahead... But they're in the right direction.

    Great job people! Thanks a lot!
  • yes, I know some people have ungodly sized monitors, and a rarer few have a good quality sound system hooked up to their puter...

    Man, 15 inches is very small these days. I'm a rather poor college kid and even I was able to fork over the $500 for a 19" monitor and good sound (120 watt (?) boston acustics speakers and sub-woofer) I think this is much more common these days, then a crappy 13"/15" monitor and sb16.

  • The big problems with Netscape 4.7 are instability in the Javascript and Java support, and the fact that it leaks memory like there is no tomorrow.
  • What are the minimum specs for playing sound/video, (ie, can I run it on a spare p200) or would it be wiser to just get a decoder card? Can't exactly afford to get p2+ atm, so wondering what I might need to put a low cost player together... in linux pereferably...

    David
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I'm very glad that you can't simply copy the movies and post them, yes it is akin to mp3's but let's get the legal issues settled about the mp3's first so that there is some legal basis for the movies. Besides it doesn't make sense to take on hollywood as well as the record companies at the same time.
  • Someone put it like this:
    Is it theft, if I steal it and you have nothing less?

    I believe that the good movies are not there to make money, and the satisfaction that their movies are appreciated would justify their work.

    This says nothing about movies produced to make money, however.

  • by Ryandav ( 5475 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @06:51PM (#1574563) Homepage Journal
    use video and sound simultaneously. It just requires a higher end machine or dual processor config...

    This is just because the code at this point is not optimized. It will be soon, since a large chunk of the interested geek communities (sound & video geeks + computer nerds) overlap...

  • That's life? That's life? You're answer to putting an industry out of business is "That's life"? Yeah, that's really good. What a wonderfully dillusional world you must live in, where everything revolves around you.

    Why should payment be viewed as a donation? In what way is paying someone for their product any type of an option? And even stranger, why should it be legal? What legal ground is there for allowing copyright infringement??

    Why is IP such an abomination? If you had your way, people would never get compensated for their effort. That's completely bogus -- In such a world where IP doesn't exist, what motivation is there for producing content?

    Your suggestion that the entire industry disappear is just plain ignorant. You obviously enjoy what the industry creates, otherwise you wouldn't even bother pirating it. What you proposing would wipe out an entire artform that you yourself find appealing. All because you had to be selfish.

    Imagine if that happened in the art world. Art is one of the most cherished and fundamental expressions of our culture. Artwork is considered intellectual property. By your statements, it would be okay with you if the entire industry of art disappeared, all because they weren't willing to give away their property for free.

    Grow up. You can't have everything for free. There are time when payment is due - people work hard and deserve to be compensated for their time.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • let's see. minimum 233 MHz G3. either a dvd-decoding device or mpeg-video decoder or software-based dvd-decoder. dvd drive. a pudgy iMac can push dvd movies using its built-in dvd software-based decoder. actually, any mac with a dvd-drive can play movies. the dvd software comes with every mac (not to mention a very cool control interface).

    -----
    Linux user: if (nt == unstable) { switchTo.linux() }
  • Comparing IP to physical property doesn't make sense.

    Any ethical arguement for IP can be dismissed as easily as an ethical arguement against it; the same applies to any ethical arguement for following an unjust law.


    Surfing the net and other cliches...
  • by tietokone-olmi ( 26595 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @02:58AM (#1574568)
    Well, this is all good and great, but we have a lot of data streams we have to break still :)

    -Quick time came up a few weeks ago on slashdot.

    I seem to recall that a QT/AVI player on the Amiga had a radius cinepak decoder and a CYUV decoder, in source. Although the formats that people would most desire are still the intel indeos... Yes, there are the xanim linkable files, but reverse engineering ain't fun.

    -We need to come up with a good GPLed VCD player (I can't find any, youknow of one?)

    I'd hack the SDLmpeg code myself to do this, if I knew something about the VCD format :-) After all, it's all in the headers, right? MpegTV (an evil capitalist piece of proprietary chicken poo) does this just by parsing the headers and separating the audio/video stream, IIRC.

    -console based Real-Audio receiver that can save to .wav or .mp3 or something

    Uhh... Realaudio sucks, compared to an equal bitrate (equal hz, too) LAME-encoded mp3 stream. IMO of course.

  • Good luck. Sonic Foundry are in bed with Microsoft in a big way (they did much of the work behind the Windows Media format, for example). As such, their software is written around Microsoft's proprietary APIs and they don't even have Macintosh ports. (A sore point with me, as I have a Mac I run Cubase on, and would like to try ACiD on it.)

    Not sure whether MS owns a large chunk of Sonic Foundry, though I'd say it's not unlikely. This does look rather like an offensive to make Windows systems required equipment for music, much in the same way that Avid's dumping of QuickTime (under coercion by Microsoft) was designed to capture the video editing market.
  • quite right that current dvd doesn't support hdtv resolutions. But it's just a scaling problem. DVD's are usually encoded at 480p (480x640 frames @ 30 fps). Highest HDTV is 1080x1920 progressive or about 19.3 Mbps or 2.4 MBps (Most broadcasts will be in 720p which is only 8.8 Mbps) By comparison, my 10x DVD-ROM does 13MBps.
  • by Mawbid ( 3993 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @03:01AM (#1574572)
    I have to disagree with you on the cut and paste thing. I'm on google.com and my search didn't pan out too well. Ok, I'll try altavista. I select the text in the search field, go to altavista in the same window, middle click in the search field and what happens? The same thing that was in the box in Kentucky Fried Movie: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Oh well, I can just type in the same text all over again.

    Now, I've finally found a working url to q3test 1.08. I've used "copy link location" in Netscape's rmb menu to get the url into the clipboard and I'm going to paste it into a wget command line. Now, I'm going to be doing some X development and I'm afraid I'm going to crash X so I'll need to run wget under nohup in an xterm or in the console. I want to watch the download progress so I'll do it in the console. CTRL-ALT-F3, type "wget ", middle click. What happens? Some shit I selected in the console earlier and contains a load of newlines is pasted, causing wget to try download some garbage and the string "rm -rf /" (that happened to be leftmost on the screen in the garbage I had pasted earlier (presumably a copy of some haX0r digest)) to be executed as a command.

    Fortunately I'm not one of those lesser beings that do everything as root.

    Incidentally, the reason I'd selected that block of text is that I wanted to paste it into jed, running in another console. Guess what. That didn't work either!

    BTW, what are the universal cut, copy, and paste keypresses that work in almost all programs, X or console? What is the ubiquitous method of selecting text with the keyboard?

    "Cut and paste works great here w/ all apps... select w/ left mouse button and paste w/ the middle one" is an example of what we pride ourselves of not doing: sweeping problems under the rug instead of fixing them.
    --

  • Bits is bits. You're getting out the original data... no generational loss. I don't get your point here... it's not like you're making an analog copy (like on to videotape).
  • by SheldonYoung ( 25077 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:37PM (#1574576)
    Unless DVD decoders get very cheap ($5-10) it's better to use the CPU to do it. For several reasons:

    1- Take that $50 you'll spend on a decoder and put it towards a faster CPU. It'll not only let you do DVD with less of a strain on the system, it'll speed up everything else.

    2- Software decoders can be free.

    3- Software decoders can be upgraded.

    4- Software decoders can be portable across platforms.

    5- Hardware takes up space, even a single chip is precious in the land of tiny laptops.

    The only reason hardware decoders exist now is because CPU's weren't *quite* able to keep up. Now they are.

    Some things need to have special-purpose hardware, like 3D video cards. DVDs do not. The frame rate won't ever need to increase. The resolution will stay the same.



  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 31, 1999 @03:20AM (#1574579)
    I just read how DTCP works... Potentially hazardous, except one thing. If the CA private key is compromised to a small group of people before a new CA key can be distributed, the the entire system would be lost to that group of people if they found means to transmit a new CA public key to the rest of the boxen. At that point every box would be at the hands of people of unknown intent, who might redesign the system or (worse) destroy the entire sysem by contaminating it with massive "Certificate Revocations". Immediately at that point, millions of lawsuits would force the manufacturers to repair the damage, would force the DTLA out of business, and inevitably destroy any future chance for "Content Protection" systems to be developed and implemented due to the incredible consumer outrage and economic disaster for the technology companies employing it. This will forever be a danger of a CA system, which is only secure for the limited time it takes to break the CA key. When the CA key size is takes small enough time to break before a new CA key is issued.. Trouble.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 31, 1999 @03:41AM (#1574583)
    It is wrong that the movie industry was preventing me from playing my copy of a movie how/where I wanted to.

    I wish the record/movie industry would learn.
    COPY PROTECTION IS ONLY ANNOYING.

    Dual cassette recorders didn't kill music.
    Two VCR's didn't kill movies.
    MP3's won't kill CD's(yet).

    Though all these probably do serve to keep the industry more honest in pricing.

    And BTW, I do have unencrypted DVD's. I'm not copying those or posting them on the web either.
    There's more issuses that prevent this:
    Download/upload time, HD space
    Honesty

  • by Anonymous Coward
    > The Matrix DVD isn't buggy, rather the players > themselves arn't up to spec

    This is untrue. It is a plain and simple fact that the Matrix is incorrectly authored - it does not comply to the DVD-Video specification.

    The reason different players work differently (or not at all) is simply because they are different! Depending on the memory representations of the DVD's data structures that a player uses, the amount it verifies that the data on the DVD conforms to spec and the amount of work done by the player to work around broken discs such as the Matrix are what make the players behave differently.

    After all - just look at HTML. One single broken HTML page will display differently in different browsers - this isn't because the browsers are broken, but just because they react differently to the broken HTML. (The fact that they also react differently to non-broken HTML is beside the point here:-) This principle is exactly the same with broken DVDs such as The Matrix.

    P.S. I work for a DVD player company. Our players didn't always play The Matrix quite right, so we had to put hacks into our code to work around the DVD authoring bugs.

    A colleague of mine once attended a DVD show where the CEO/similar of the authoring house in question was saying how amazing they were and how they tested with every player known to man. It's pretty obvious he's full of sh*t - just look at all the problems The Matrix has! He didn't get quite such a good reception at a recent conference he talked at after this fiasco!
  • You are leaving out several important things. By far the most important is this: ultra-high quality SVideo out! Yeah, yeah, your TNT2 Ultra can do that, right? NO! Not the resolution and quality of a hardware decoder card, which is just a consumer DVD player-on-a-card. Another thing: AC-3 out, so I can use my $500 receiver for that instead of an unshielded sound card (eg, SBLive!). Another thing: software decoding would kill my distributed.net keyrate! Or kill the compile I might be wanting to do at the same time I watch a movie. The reason I bought a DVD drive was because at the time, a drive+decoder was $100s cheaper than a commercial player, I didn't buy it to watch movies on my computer!

  • The filmmaker need not entertain me to get my money. He just needs to make the movie appear entertaining enough in a 30 second TV spot to get me to pay for the ticket. Before I see ANY movie anymore, I watch the first 5-10 minutes from an .ASF off IRC. Some movies have been good enough that I paid the money to see them in the theatre (Thomas Crowne, Mystery Men). The rest is, frankly, crap.
  • The pioneer 114 and 104S 10x are currently region locked players. Unless a firmware patch of hidden jumper is discovered, the recommendation is to stick with the older 6x model. See http://www.dvdutils.com/ [dvdutils.com]
  • Uhm, usually the patents only apply to encryption, not decryption. In the case of MP3 (which is relevent here because MP3 is part of the mpeg 2 standard, which DVDs use), despite some initial threats from Fraunhoffer and Thompson, there wasn't anything they could do to people writing the decoding software, since their patents had to do with the psycho accoustic models used for compression, and de-compression didn't need to know anything about those models. To my understanding, decode/decryption/decompresion only is interfered with by patents when there is only one algorithm to decode something, and that algorithm is covered by the patent. However, in many (if not most) cases, there are multiple ways to decode things.
  • by Convergence ( 64135 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:49PM (#1574604) Homepage Journal
    When will people realize that JUST because its always been done that way in the past means it CANNOT BE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN THE FUTURE.

    The telephone obsoleted the telegraph. Many people lost their jobs, many telegraph companies lost their only source of money. Do we still lament their passing?

    JUST BECAUSE the current distribution methods of media won't give the CURRENT POWERS their money in the future. doesn't mean that there won't be alternatives in the future.

    So what if the era 100-million-dollar movie ends? So what if the era of MGM or Paramount or Disney as film companies ends? So what if the era of the railroads ended? So what if the era of the Telegraph ended? As long as there is demand, there will be a replacement. Its safe to say that there will always be a demand for entertainment.

    ``I propose that to save the critically important telegraph industry we must make it illegal to transmit voice electronically over any wire.''

    Or how about:

    ``I propose that to save the critically important post office, we must make it illegal to transmit any message electronically over a wire domestically.''

    ``I propose that we immediately discount that new foolish idea that some legistlators are proposing, called 'copyright', as it will let tyrannical authors prevent bookmakers from making books.''

    Or, what was that one about british candlemakers protesting about how the Sun was screwing up their business?

    The future is different from the past, just because its the past doesn't make it better, doesn't make it the only way that works.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:50PM (#1574612)
    In a few years, aren't DVDs & players going to be replaced by HDTV versions of the same thing?

    If so, what's keeping the them from working out a scheme that's exponentially more difficult to break?

    If I'm missing something, let me know...
  • I would put forth that you've allowled your feeling to WANT to be entertained to overwelm you. I've got a news flash, you won't go nuts of you don't have Q3 arena, You won't go crazy is you don't have the absolute latest and greatest thing.

    I would put forth that any psychologist worth their weight would disagree with you.

    Food, shelter, and clothing are physical necessities, though depending on the climate and such clothing may not rank as highly. However, you have emotional needs which go above and beyond that. Everybody, for example, needs to feel loved. Do you die if you don't feel loved? Of course not. But you don't develop healthily (or, if you prefer, normally) if that's the case. The same with entertainment. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." You're right, you *don't* need Q3Arena. You can just as easily get by with a deck of cards, or socializing with friends. But if you never take some time to yourself, to do things that you enjoy doing... then, well, something's wrong.

  • by axboe ( 76190 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @05:50AM (#1574637) Homepage
    After having read the many comments here, it's apparent that there is some confusion with regards to what patch you need for what kernel and what type of drives it works on. Let me attempt to clarify that a bit.

    The original DVD patch was done by Andrew T. Veliath and this is the patch linked on the HOWTO page. While it only worked on ATAPI drives, his interface and structure was good and I decided to integrate this in the standard Linux kernel but in a bus independent way. Current 2.3 kernels contain this code and it works equally well on ATAPI as well as SCSI drives (which is an important point, IMO).

    In summary, if you are running a recent 2.3 kernel you are all set and there is no need to patch your kernel. If you are on a 2.2 kernel, get the patch from my page to get support for both ATAPI and SCSI drives.

    http://www.kernel.dk

  • When will people realize that JUST because its always been done that way in the past means it CANNOT BE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN THE FUTURE.
    In the future, movies will still cost money to make. Maybe not as much as they cost today, but undoubtedly a hefty chunk of cash nonetheless.

    That's the difference between "free movies" and Free Software, which I know is what most of you guys have in the back of your mind right now. Free software can be made for free (on donated time.) And it can even be profitable, if you sell services associated with your software, or maybe printed manuals.

    But you have to put money in to get a movie out, and that money has to come from somewhere. And you can't really use them as a loss-leader, anyway. (Well, George Lucas could probably have given away The Phantom Menace for free and subsisted on the merchandising money, but that's an unusual situation. Besides, do we want our movies to literally be two hour long commercials?)

    I understand the general animosity towards restricted IP on /., but I'm just trying to point out that movies are different. They're not just ideas, they're massive investments.
  • yup that's it, lets just leave the dvd/vcd/games to windows, so that way we never have to add any functionality to linux. What kind of mentality is that?

    Linux is striving to be a better OS. We have code freezes to get bugs worked out, but after that, more functionality enters. That is the beauty of this system. It is nowhere near reaching its limits and I don't think just buying another machine to run windows is a way to solve this problem.

    You mention that you have a linux router/dialup box. Hmm last I checked they have that for windows too, so why do you use linux for it? Stability perhaps?

    This is why I love linux, sure you might have to wait for some functionality, but once its there, it gets improved upon. If it has bugs they get fixed, not covered up. and yes, i have two machines, guess what, they both run linux, cuz it does what i want and will do what i need to later.

    Patience is a virtue
  • by penguinboy ( 35085 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @12:13PM (#1574658)
    ..would be a multimedia-oriented linux distro. Good stuff to include would be MP3 players/encoders, WAV players/recorers, MIDI sequencers, various video players, and of course a fully functional DVD player. It would not be necessary to include most of the various server programs and such, since it would be oriented towards MM and the idea would be to have the system do the best it could.
  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:00PM (#1574668) Homepage
    Min specs call for a 600Mhz proccesor(at least), because the Mpeg player is just a pixal pusher. It is highly unoptimized. Doing just video you can do it on a 450 (that is what my box is), but not a 300 and soudn works on 300.
  • by bgdarnel ( 2144 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:01PM (#1574671) Homepage
    The page recommends 350mHz with 128M RAM for video alone, 600mHz for video and audio (there are software decoders for Windows that require significantly less horsepower simply because the software is more optimized). There are not yet any decoder cards that work with Linux. Another requirement that is not mentioned in the HOWTO is that you must be running a 16-bit X server.
  • Even if you could copy them, and post them, who would want to, do you realize how much bandwith it would take up to upload an 'entire' movie? The only reason that mp3 piracy is a problem, is the average mp3 is only 5 megs, and what's that, couple min download with a decent modem? But, you get up to a couple hundred megs (actualy more) for a DVD film, yer talking some serious d/l time here. It's just not worth the trouble (unless of course your on a lan (like in a collage), but even then, the only other people who would have easy access are few)

    Not much of a threat
  • This is very early software, not optimized at all. Software solutions for linux will be able to play with 300Mhz eventually. This is a major leap that wasn't expected to occur untill much later.
  • As I understand it, however, much of the code in the "Linux DVD" codebase has been generated by disassembling Windows code and converting to C. This is pretty shady at best from a legal perspective. Anyone care to clear this up?
  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:06PM (#1574715) Homepage
    A raw DVD can be 9GB That is way to much for the average user, heck jsut about everyone. And with this program it is stupid to copy the raw data cause it wont work anyway. The only way to copy it would be with a DVD recorder and do bit/bit copy. Oh by the way thoughs are $17,000. Oh and your average DVD is $14.95
  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:08PM (#1574720) Homepage
    The HiVal ones that suck int he disk are good. :) Just about any drive will work. As long as it can be seen as a normal drive it will work fine (i.e. you should ahve no problems with a perticular DVD drive)
  • by voidptr ( 609 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @06:57AM (#1574723) Homepage Journal
    The actual name of the package is nist. It's here [germany.net] or in the LIVID cvs server. I recommend the binary version from the web page, it's a bit difficult to compile right now.
  • IBM have not ported Viavoice to Linux. They have the engine binaries and an SDK available. it is not supported, and since linux sound support is so bad, even if you did manage to build a working task, and managed to get it to talk to the engine, and managed to make a front end, you'd be lucky to get it working on anything apart from a particular spec of machine. Typing is, however, still faster.
  • The main reason not to use Linux is that your company IS department is cramming Windows down your throat and your only choice is to not use a computer at all. Side reasons are specialized applications like SAS JMP or lack of drivers for hardware like ComputerBoards A/D stuff and Camille. I don't think your other reasons are very persuasive.

    CORBA, according to a lot of surveys is more widely used than COM. RAD in the form of Py/Tk/C is very slick, and there still isn't an editor anywhere that can do what Emacs can. Central registries are interesting in theory but the fact is that in real life they get corrupted by poorly written software leading to the help desk advising people "reinstall to fix any bugs you may have" or a system upgrade resulting in having to reinstall all applications as well. To me a the central registry in Windows leads to massive long term system instability and is one of the best reasons to run Linux.

    As far as GUIs crashing, I have far more Windows Explorer crashes than I ever get from XFree.

    Microsoft IE 5 is the best web browser currently available. But it also is a bloated pig in terms of system resources and does not fully adhere to standards, and I'd bet in the not too distant future will be surpassed by Mozilla. In the meantime Netscape is quite 'decent' thank you.

  • The DV iMacs (the ones with DVD drives) are 400 MHz G3's and from what I've heard, the audio and video often get out of sync. For smooth decoding, either a hardware decoder or a really fast CPU is required.
  • by miracle69 ( 34841 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @07:34AM (#1574743)
    Since it took me several tries to get through - /. effect and all, I took the liberty of copying the howto from the aforementioned page.

    linuxdvd.webjump.com/"

    ************************************************ **
    This comes from the URL listed above and is not my
    own personal work.
    ************************************************ **
    To watch a DVD film in Linux you should follow the following steps (to complete the hack, as in challenge, not crack!).

    1) Get the DVD encryption kernel patch from http://atv.ne.mediaone.net/linux-dvd/ It is the file "linux-dvd-2.2.12.1.diff.gz"
    LOCAL MIRROR
    Insert it into the 2.2.13 kernel with the command "patch output.vob

    10) Play the Movie.
    mpeg2player -vob -f output.vob
    (use the option -na for no sound)
    (use the option -nv for no video)

    11) You can use ac3dec to just play the sound if you want.

    /*********************************************** ****************/

    Comments:

    You will not be able to play both video and sound in the current configuration unless you have some sort of a high end system. Min
    requirements would have to be a 350Mhz for just sound or Video. (At least 128MB mem) Min Req for both sound and video would have to
    be somewhere around a 600Mhz. The highest I have tested it on is a 450. The reasoning behind this is that the code is very very new and
    hasn't yet been optimized at all. I have no clue as to dual system.

    There is only one button, so to say. That is PLAY. Once you start a film you have to quit the program to end it! Even then, you have to
    have the vob files lined up. You could stream them from the cd-rom to the decoder to the player, but that would require a insane system.
    And mpeg2player doesn't do streaming yet ( | ), but we would all appreciate it if someone would simply submit a patch to the author that
    would allow it.

    There is no Menu functionality whatsoever. You can only view it in DVD size 769*239 (something like that). That is how big it is on the
    screen. You can't get Subtitles or any of the other fun stuff. You can't grab any or the sub picture or handle the navigation at all.

    At some point shortly (MAYBE) a lot of this will be merged together to form a software backend for the Linux DVD API. [link]. Thus
    you will be able to use a player (any player) to play the movie without having to do all of this. But that is a long way down the road to have
    this software work in full. The Linux-DVD API is being developed by the DVD hardware group who will be releasing hardware decoders
    around Christmas that support that API. And then you will not need this software at all. Other groups will also be coming out with a fully
    functional (and much faster compared to todays hack) software decoder within the turn of the millenium , that will support everything that a
    DVD does.

    Full screen does not work, nor can you resize the window.

    Please do not post silly comments to the mailing list. When this gets on slashdot please use the feedback on slashdot to handle any
    minor issues that you will have. Please do not badger the authors to make bug fixes or to do something. These people have been working
    at it for a long time and will do it when they see fit. PLEASE debate the ethical side of this on slashdot and NOT on the newsgroup.
    Thanks.

    For all those out there that thinks that this is a wonderful chance to copy the DVD, think again. Yes, you do have full access to the drive
    and you would be able just copy the files somewhere else. The only thing is that you need somewhere to copy it too. The only place to put
    it is on a DVD-RAM. And that is around $25 for a disk. The real DVD is $15 to $20. So it is quite silly to copy it to DVD-RAM. Also
    you simply copy the decrypted files you won't be able to run it as a DVD at ALL. You get funny video, or really weird shit, but none of the
    DVD features at all. This hack was NOT meant as a DVD-RIPPER. And it is almost the exact opposite of that. There are windows
    programs that are designed for that and those are the people that you should be yelling at about this.

  • by debrain ( 29228 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:11PM (#1574744) Journal
    It's quite inevitable that, as the exponentially exploding storage devices become suitable to encompass full motion video, and bandwidth opens enough to exploit isosyncronous transfers, the film industry will be in the place of the recording industry. Where would MP3's be just ten years ago when 3-4 of them filled a hard drive; is that not the ratios of movies now?

    And truth be told, this bothers me none. The multimillion dollar movie does not help my world at all -- rather the contrary, instead of promoting my health, education, or well being in any way, shape, or form, the Hollywood giants get bigger, the recording industry expands, the money eater eats money, and someone whose daddy was rich, gets richer. And what good are patents, when they directly inhibit a healthy economy by promoting stagnation and monopolies. What good are copyright laws that prevent modern Disney films from being referenced in a text book from which I wish to learn.

    What good is music I cannot listen to. And why must the recording industry insist on making people famous, despite their obvious lack of talent, and thereby truncating any forwards my society has fought for local, true, non-mass entertained culture. I say let MP3's thrive, and so will our choice in music, and let true popularity be shown.

    And of movies? Movies make money from commercials, food companies, advertising agencies, theatres, rental outlets, and royalties. How much money do they need? Good movies make good money, as they should. But I have been to countless bad movies, whereby my spent money has left me with only the return of bitterness or exhaustion, frustration or sadness. Whomever made the movie, makes their, in my opinion of the movie, undeserved dollar. Is this fair? No.

    Then what would be fair? I say let me copy DVD's, let me copy MP3's, let me have that moment of entertainment, without worrying about some rich person's pocket money. I have enough issues with money not to have to think about someone else's whenever I seek to be entertained.

    At some point of earning money, I conclude, the possession of more money is fundamentally wrong.

  • How is this a flame. I merely said Linux was not for servers as the poster claimed. That does not mean it cannot raise to a server OS, it means that the origional goal was not for a server machine, and was an offshoot. Many also want linux to be a desktop OS, an imbedded OS, etc. That means Linux is many things, and not one. Calling that a flame of Linux is absurd.

    The rest would be too if considered a flame. Linus has said he considered himself the best programmer in the world when he began Linux, and that's ego, whether he was or was not. That's good, or else he may not have taken the task. He wasn't happy with Minux, which is why he created Linux, and Xenix was popular (many people liked Xenix, because it was functional and had support).

    The rest was 'what OSes have their goal for servers?' FreeBSD is a good x86 OS designed for servers, which means its better at some tasks while worse at others. Don't kid me by claiming AIX and Solaris are not server class OSes, because both are well respected and powerful unix OSes on their platforms.

    Linux is superior to all of these in various ways, but each are superior to linux, and each other, in various ways. Pretending nothing else except Linux exists and is useful is pure ignorance. Take my karma away, fine (who cares?), but don't be so thick headed as to claim anything that does not flaim a different, non-Linux based OS is thereby a flaim towards Linux. Linux is modelled after UNIX, so there has to e some good things to UNIX, and as there are other UNIX OSes, there must be some good things about them too. Its mere logic.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:14PM (#1574753)
    How do you mean?

    DVD's have a few forms of protection in CSS authentication and encryption, but both have been cracked for a while now although only recently has some source code been made available to the public.

    programs like DeCSS and DOD SpeedRipper (both windows proggies) have been able to extract the .VOB files (Video OBject -- mpeg2 streams) from dvds for a while and from there it's not a difficult process to convert to MPEG1 for the vcd "scene" .. as is evident by the number of DVD ripped movies available on the net ..

    I guess what i'm saying is this; the law has been flaunted for a while now, it's just that finally people who have a legitimate and legal right to view their own dvd's will finally be able to do so under linux.

    What i really can't wait for is for one or two big hardware decoder manufacturers to release some programming specs so we can have hardware assisted playback .. software decoding is soo slow.

    -Iain Wade
  • by cdlu ( 65838 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:16PM (#1574758) Homepage
    Well, this is all good and great, but we have a lot of data streams we have to break still :)
    -Quick time came up a few weeks ago on slashdot.
    -We need to come up with a good GPLed VCD player (I can't find any, youknow of one?)
    -console based Real-Audio receiver that can save to .wav or .mp3 or something
    So while we have a way of watching dvds now, we still have a lot more work that needs doing before we can do everything other OSs can.
  • by Chaostrophy ( 925 ) <ronaldpottol&gmail,com> on Sunday October 31, 1999 @08:21AM (#1574765) Homepage Journal
    1- But I don't want to replace my system, dual PPro 150's, 128MB RAM, nice case, PC Power & Cooling power supply, none of it will work in a new system, and I am happy enough with it now.

    1a-a hardware decoder will always be less of a strain on the system than doing it in software. DMA from the drive to the card, and from the card to your video card. Shouldn't eat more than a few % of your cpu.

    2-I cannot argue with that, IF you have a fast enough cpu. In a GPL sense, not as long as there are patents on any part of it, and I expect there are.

    3&4-well, yeah.

    5-hey, and they don't take a PCI slot anyways. But I'm not replacing my Libretto any time soon either. And I bet hardware is easier on your battery. If you have the space, why not use hardware?

    There is a place for hardware decoders, yeah, next summer, when I upgrade to a dual 1ghz Athlon system, software will be great, but until I get around to it (and it may be longer than that), hardware is the only way for me to watch it. Well, when it finally works under Linux.

  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:18PM (#1574769) Homepage
    The stuff is trade secret and not patented. This is where the fuzzy line comes into play. It doesn't need to be cracked then technicly, just figured out.
  • by IanCarlson ( 16476 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:23PM (#1574782) Homepage
    Ohmigod, Ohmigod, Ohmigod!!!

    Can you tell I'm excited? Here's the fourm to say what I need to say. FUCK YOUR ENCRYPTION! Does anyone remember when we thought this was impossible, and that even if it weren't, it would need a hardware decoder? Well, the Linux-DVD team has proven them all wrong.

    Oh, and any posts about the "ethics" of this are pointless to say the least. When you pay for a DVD, you pay for the right to watch it, and enjoy it. Should you be penalized if you aren't using Windows to view it?

    I love you Tux, I love you Linux-DVD team, I love you Slashdot.

    By the way, I heard about people using their DVD drives under Linux (for data DVDs) back in Janurary. I never thought I would see the Matrix playing in an X-Window.
  • by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:25PM (#1574790) Homepage
    Well that's horribly selfish way to look at it. When you say "Let MP3s thrive", I'm assuming you mean the pirating of MP3s because you also seem to want to be able to copy them (and DVDs) to your hearts desire, regardless of the wishes of the people who produced them.

    I don't really care if you have to spend more money than you'd like to, to get a CD you want. That's life. Yes, major labels have hideously overpriced the cost of CDs, but it's still your choice whether or not to buy them. Look, I'm all for the MP3 format, and I love to see artists distribute their content over the internet. What I can't stand, however, is when people decide that it's okay for them to pirate music that wasn't distributed by it's creators for free.

    It's theft, plain and simple. I know that everyone thinks of the industry as being the big bad guy, and maybe they are. That doesn't make it okay for you to steal from them though. If you do, then you're just as bad as they are. Just because you don't like a musician or a company doesn't make it okay for you to violate their right to intellectual property. They can charge whatever they damn-well like for their products.

    Look, it's not like music/movies are something you HAVE to have. If you don't want to pay their price then vote with your feet: take you business elsewhere. But don't reduce yourself to the level of a theif by pirating their material. It's unacceptable in any media: music, movies, software, or whatever.

    If pirating movies and music becomes a wide-spread practice (right now MP3s aren't quite as ubiquitous as they could be) then the movie and music industries will have to hike their rates for people who actually have a conscience. And if those people can't pay the price then said industry will be shut down. Period. If people aren't willing to pay for movie, then no one is going to spend 100 million on special effects to create it.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • by Sir_Winston ( 107378 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @08:41PM (#1574799)
    I'm glad of these breakthroughs mostly because, as it stands, a DVD I buy in France can't be played with an American DVD player. If the addage is true that information should be free (as in freedom), then this is a terrible thing. It's especially bad since many films are not available outside their own regions--for example, there's a "director's cut" of the movie called in America *The Professional*, which is called *Leon: version integrale" which is only available in Europe. The American version of the film is fluff, but the French version is beautiful--they won't ever release it in the U.S. because 13-yr.-old Natalie Portman (Queen Amidala in her latest role) asks Leon to sleep with her, and though he refuses he does take her out to help him in his job as a hitman and teach her the ropes. None of that happens in the U.S. censored version. That's just one version. Now we're closer to breaking down the barriers of film-industry censorship, and that's a great thing. Thanks to the hackers and code-breakers who did this work. Thanks a lot.
  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:33PM (#1574803) Homepage
    Oh by the way the Matrix has a differnt code that isn't int he source yet.

    Here is the number:
    {0x28, {0x53, 0xd4, 0xf7, 0xd9, 0x8f}};


    or for the codeers:
    struct player_key player_key = {0x28, {0x53, 0xd4, 0xf7, 0xd9, 0x8f}};

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Except for the VCD (isn't that just MPEG on a CD?) these are codec problems, not stream problems. The stream for Quicktime is open. The codecs (e.g. Sorensen) are not. Thus if you have a QT file that uses mpeg, you can view it. It's a LOT harder (I would imagine; never tried) reversing a codec when all you know is what it's supposed to look like than reversing a file system when you know what the data should vaguely look like.
  • Read the description in NTK [ntk.net] of how the crypto on a DVD is organised: the whole disk is encrypted with a single random key, then the key is itself encrypted several times, once for each DVD manufacturer. Your DVD player will have only one of these manufacturer master keys built in, so the corresponding encrypted key needs to be on the disk for you to read it.

    The nasty bit is this: the idea was that if a given key is leaked, they simply stop using it on newly pressed disks. Bang: the key in *your* brand of DVD player was leaked, so now neither you nor anyone else with a player from that manufacturer can play new disks. This threat has never been carried out.

    Fortunately, they screwed up the crypto: master keys can be brute forced in a few days. Basically DVD locking is dead; they'd have to come up with a forward-and-backward incompatible "DVD Plus" format to rescue things now.

    However, this is so far the industry's best effort at a universal copy-resistant format; as the tide turns our way, it might hopefully be their last.
    --
  • I found a bunch of random numbers lying about, they are good for seeding
    poker programs and such:

    $ cat *.keys | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | cut -f1 | uniq -c:

    75 6
    160 5
    75 4
    61 3
    24 2
    673 1

    $ cat *.keys | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr (skipping the last 673
    uninteresting numbers):

    6 {0x7d5, {0x4c,0xbb,0xf5,0x5b,0x23}}
    6 {0x7b7, {0xab,0x36,0xe3,0xeb,0x76}}
    6 {0x7ad, {0xec,0xa0,0xcf,0xb3,0xff}}
    6 {0x78f, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x762, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x73f, {0x26,0xec,0xc4,0xa7,0x4e}}
    6 {0x730, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x71c, {0x26,0xec,0xc4,0xa7,0x4e}}
    6 {0x717, {0xec,0xa0,0xcf,0xb3,0xff}}
    6 {0x6f4, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x6c2, {0xcf,0x1a,0xb2,0xf8,0x0a}}
    6 {0x6b8, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x6ae, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x68b, {0x45,0xed,0x28,0xeb,0xd3}}
    6 {0x67c, {0x4c,0xbb,0xf5,0x5b,0x23}}
    6 {0x672, {0xab,0x36,0xe3,0xeb,0x76}}
    6 {0x64a, {0x26,0xec,0xc4,0xa7,0x4e}}
    6 {0x622, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x61d, {0x45,0xed,0x28,0xeb,0xd3}}
    6 {0x618, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x604, {0xec,0xa0,0xcf,0xb3,0xff}}
    6 {0x5be, {0xec,0xa0,0xcf,0xb3,0xff}}
    6 {0x591, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x58c, {0x2f,0x25,0x9e,0x96,0xdd}}
    6 {0x573, {0xcf,0x1a,0xb2,0xf8,0x0a}}
    6 {0x564, {0xcf,0x1a,0xb2,0xf8,0x0a}}
    6 {0x550, {0x26,0xec,0xc4,0xa7,0x4e}}
    6 {0x537, {0xec,0xa0,0xcf,0xb3,0xff}}
    6 {0x532, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x519, {0xab,0x36,0xe3,0xeb,0x76}}
    6 {0x4c4, {0x4c,0xbb,0xf5,0x5b,0x23}}
    6 {0x4a6, {0x45,0xed,0x28,0xeb,0xd3}}
    6 {0x4a1, {0xcf,0x1a,0xb2,0xf8,0x0a}}
    6 {0x433, {0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0}}
    6 {0x410, {0x2f,0x25,0x9e,0x96,0xdd}}
    6 {0x40b, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x3c0, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x3bb, {0x26,0xec,0xc4,0xa7,0x4e}}
    6 {0x38e, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x36b, {0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0}}
    6 {0x366, {0xab,0x36,0xe3,0xeb,0x76}}
    6 {0x361, {0x45,0xed,0x28,0xeb,0xd3}}
    6 {0x357, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x352, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x339, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x320, {0xb1,0xb8,0xf9,0x38,0x03}}
    6 {0x2f3, {0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0}}
    6 {0x2bc, {0x2c,0xb2,0xc1,0x09,0xee}}
    6 {0x2a8, {0x2f,0x25,0x9e,0x96,0xdd}}
    6 {0x29e, {0xbf,0x92,0xc3,0xb0,0xe2}}
    6 {0x28f, {0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0}}
    6 {0x28a, {0xcf,0x1a,0xb2,0xf8,0x0a}}
    6 {0x27b, {0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0}}
    6 {0x258, {0x2f,0x25,0x9e,0x96,0xdd}}
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    4 {0x05f, {0x01,0xaf,0xe3,0x12,0x80}}
    4 {0x046, {0x1a,0xa4,0x33,0x21,0xa6}}
    4 {0x041, {0x12,0x11,0xca,0x04,0x3b}}
    4 {0x019, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x7e9, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x7df, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x7cb, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x771, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x75d, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x6f9, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x6d1, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x6bd, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x6b3, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x5f0, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x5c8, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x5a5, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x59b, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x55a, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x54b, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x50a, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x500, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x4ec, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x4ce, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x4bf, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x4b5, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x483, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x474, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x447, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x442, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x3ed, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x3ca, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x3ac, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x3a2, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x393, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x37f, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x32f, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    3 {0x325, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    3 {0x2fd, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x2df, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x2b7, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x299, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x271, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x26c, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x20d, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x208, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x203, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    3 {0x1e5, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x1d6, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    3 {0x1cc, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    3 {0x1c2, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x1b3, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    3 {0x19a, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x181, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x172, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    3 {0x168, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    3 {0x163, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x159, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x104, {0x53,0x94,0xe1,0x75,0xbf}}
    3 {0x0eb, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x0c3, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x0aa, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x0a0, {0x33,0x2f,0x49,0x6c,0xe0}}
    3 {0x082, {0xab,0x1e,0xe7,0x7b,0x72}}
    3 {0x078, {0x14,0x71,0x35,0xba,0xe2}}
    3 {0x03c, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x7e4, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x78a, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x785, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x753, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    2 {0x712, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    2 {0x631, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x5cd, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x5af, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x4dd, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x3f2, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x348, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x31b, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x302, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    2 {0x2ee, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}
    2 {0x280, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x21c, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x190, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x15e, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x14f, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x113, {0x57,0x2c,0x8b,0x31,0xae}}
    2 {0x0d2, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x091, {0x4b,0x65,0x0d,0xc1,0xee}}
    2 {0x06e, {0x36,0x67,0xb2,0xe3,0x85}}
    2 {0x055, {0x35,0x5b,0xc1,0x31,0x0f}}

    takes about 30 minutes to generate

    ---
    credit goes to Mike on this post
  • by kaphka ( 50736 ) <1nv7b001@sneakemail.com> on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:48PM (#1574841)
    And truth be told, this bothers me none. The multimillion dollar movie [sic] does not help my world at all
    Maybe you don't care about the movie industry (which makes me wonder why you have such a strong opinion on it), but personally, I like to watch movies. Big budget ones, and little budget ones. I would be very displeased if they ceased to exist.

    That is what you're suggesting, right? Because of course, movies cost a hell of a lot of money to make. Movie companies aren't going to spend $100M+ on a movie like Titanic if they are forced to give away their movies for free. (Because they're "too rich"?) Sure, they could still charge people to see the film in theaters, but that will become increasingly irrelevant as home theater technology advances.

    That reason alone is plenty explanation for why you can't copy movies. But I can't let the many snide remarks about "rich" movie companies go by without comment. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Rupert Murdoch and Ted Turner and their peers really are completely selfish and amoral. When you steal movies from them, since they're already so rich anyway, do you think they're just going to smile and take a pay cut? Of course not. They'll close a studio, putting hundreds of minimum-wage workers out of a job... they'll cancel interesting or controversial projects, in favor of guaranteed money-makers like Big Daddy... they'll raise prices on whatever it is that they're still alowed to sell... and everyone else will be hurt.

    I must say, I lose a bit of respect for /. every time I see such a childish, selfish rant like this one marked as "Insightful".
  • by Shaheen ( 313 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:49PM (#1574843) Homepage
    With one of the last few bastions of end-user Windows software being ported or made available on the Linux Operating System, there are fewer and fewer reasons to remain a faithful user of the Microsoft family of operating systems. However, I was able to come up with the following top 5 reasons to continue to use Microsoft Windows.

    1. The idea of using something primarily controlled by typing revolts you.
    2. You could never get the hang of the GIMP.
    3. You are an employee of Microsoft.
    4. Paperclips turn you on. Especially talking ones.
    5. You like the color blue
  • This key is in version 0.8 of the css package, available from the site linked to in the howto. The Matrix seems to decrypt OK, but when I try to pass the resulting .vob file to mpeg2player, it says "can't read first packet", creates a small white window, and sits there indefinitely. The Matrix is the only DVD I have to test with currently, so I'm not sure if it's a problem with that disc or with my setup.
  • I have a serious qualm with thieving the money of artists. I have no qualm, however, with taking money from the industry that holds the artists down, that represents itself as if it were the artists themselves. I'm speaking of distributers.

    All music that I enjoy, I wish I could give the artists money, but from what I have seen, the $1 that an average artists makes on a CD just doesn't justify the $20 I'm going to pay for it, especially when I know that the majority of the manufacturing cost is in the jewel case!

    Movies are a more complex, but the problem still exists that a costly movie does not indicate a good movie! See Waterworld. Whereas many cheap movies have been great, see Judgement at Nuremburg. My experience has lead me to believe that the more a movie costs, the more effort has been put into the development of the movie to cover up for lack of acting, or plot, or overall richness of content. But that's subjective, and completely dependent on the genre as well. (Sci-fi benefits from the cash injections.)

    My qualm with movies is that Hollywood consistently releases movies I do not enjoy. They still get my money. There is no "pay if you like it", scenario. You do not "get what you pay for", you simply "take it or leave it". However, if I walked out of Fight Club for example, I'd have gladly given $10 for the entertainment value, intellectual stimulation, and overall relaxation induced by taking me away from reality for a few hours. That kind of thing is priceless.

    In reality, however, with such high margins, what incentive does a producer have to make a good movie? It's more likely that the movie was brought up to schedule against the desires of the cast, crew, and producer to make a good movie, in an effort to meet a movie season peak.

    With less margin, the incentive exists to provide better movies. I see fit to vindicate these wrongs by not paying.

    And I fear no reprisal from law enforcement: any law that undermines the morals of the people is of null and void effect. What decent person would punish someone for copying a movie? The producer of the movie comes to mind, but then, if it was a Hollywood movie, they'd likely not care because they have sufficient money. And if the movie bombed, and they made little money in the theatres, advertisements, fast food endorsements, and so on and so forth? I say that it is unlikely that this is a movie I would want to copy, and were it a movie I desired to possess, I would gladly pay a reasonable amount for it.

    My time becomes more precious with age, and my interests with mass-produced entertainment dwindle. If anything, the producers of movies will eventually have to pay me to spend my precious time to sit and watch their movie. If the advertisements in the beginning of the movie incite me to spend money on particular products, then everyone is happy.

    I am not sure how this comes across as selfish. This is my attitude towards a selfish world. My $20 is not worth a 2 hour movie I'd watch three times in my lifetime. My $20 is not worth a single track on a single CD that I enjoy a severely finite number of times. If they want my money, let them barter for it. I'd gladly give $2 for the single track I want to listen to, but cut the crap and give me the things I want at the prices that meets both of our needs. I do not feel the need to be exploited, and will go to great lengths to engage those that attempt it!

  • by IceFox ( 18179 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:18PM (#1574851) Homepage
    I accually have a player in the works that will be done by the end of next week. It works to the LinuxDVD API specs, so as soon as this is converted into the standard the player will be able to work :) Read above for the two companies that are releasing DVD hardware cards in December. Yes other companies need to too. HOPEFULLY they will use the API that is allready in place. I player is allready skinable etc. :) If any of you patition them or even inquire ask them to follow the API that is allready in place. standards standars!
  • by Fizgig ( 16368 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:24PM (#1574855)
    There is no objective pricing of entertainment. If I say it is worth $2 to me, then who can argue with that?

    The studios and me. That was my point. Bargaining works like this:

    A) Widgets! Get your widgets right here! Only $100!
    B) I'll pay $2
    A) $50
    B) $2
    A) $25
    B) $2
    A) Screw you. I'll taking my widget and going home.

    You removed the studios' ability to say the last part. It would be one thing if you said "I'm not willing to pay $18 for that album" and sucked it up and went without. But when you say "I'm not willing to pay $18 for that album; I'm stealing it instead", what incentive does the studio have to lower the price? Sure, a FEW people might buy it instead (you claim you would, but are you sure?), but most would not and they would lose more money (I suspect they could lower it some and gain more from people who abstain, not pirates).

    When you say "It's worth $2 to me" that means you're willing to pay $2 and if it costs more you won't have it. It does not mean that you will give the person $2 for the item. A subtle difference, but consider. How much is fetchmail worth to me? I'd say $25, maybe a little more. Does that mean that's how much I pay for it? No. Likewise, the album/movie may be "worth $2" to you, but the studio has no evidence that you won't just steal it anyway, so they won't sell it for $2.
  • Extortion has to be the biggest stretch of the imagination. No one needs movies. You don't have to pay their price, but don't expect to get something for free, just because you don't think it's reasonable.
    Is it a stretch of the imagination that someone making millions of dollars would leave prices high such that they might make margins where no alternative exists to their form of entertainment? And is entertainment really unnecessary? Never before in my life have I seen a society so deprived of real connections between people. In fact, I believe there is a need to see movies, listen to music, watch tv. Because the natural social bonds are slowly break down after years of exposure to mass media.
    If you don't pay for a movie, then the producers don't get a return on their investment. If they don't get their money back, they won't sink money into another film. Unless you're satisfied with a thousand films a year that all look like "Blair Witch", then someone needs to shell out a couple million.
    Again, this is the flip side of a coin that isn't recognized here. If a producer make a horrible movie, still makes his millions, because I and millions of others paid to see his film, is that not an attrocity? The producer did it to all the innocent, unknowing people that paid to see the crappy movie that was produced. And what incentive does that give him? Produce shitty movies. People will go see them anyway, I still make the mint, and don't have to put the effort into producing something of entertainment value.

    I don't feel like gambling my money on the entertainment prospect of a movie every time I go to the theatre. I don't have the time, the money, the energy, or the incentive.

    The real issue: Will years of mind-bogglingly bad movies produce a state where one cannot recognize the true value of a film, such as Blair Witch project, wherein we have been spoiled or brainwashed, by Hollywood marketing.

  • by Zico ( 14255 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @07:55PM (#1574861)

    1. The Linux community has earned a reputation of not being willing to pay for anything.

    2. The Linux market for things like this is sufficiently small that the companies figure that it's not worth spending the money to make sure that it works under Linux.

    They don't sit around and say, "Yeah! Let's shut out all those Linux/Amiga/Etc. users, we don't want them watching our movies," they just don't yet see a business advantage in doing so.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • by pberry ( 2549 ) <`moc.cam' `ta' `yrrebp'> on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:02PM (#1574870) Homepage

    Does anyone just sit back and enjoy the hack anymore? It seems everyone wants to jump 20 steps ahead all the time. At least take a few seconds to give credit for the hack...

    Here we have a person/group of people who complete a not so trivial task and the first thing people hit them with is, 'gee, is that all, it wont clean my room for me?'

    At least give them a day to bask...

    Or has the time come when none can rest and all must push for world domination by next tuesday at the latest?

    Anyway, congrats to those who hacked...

  • It does not help your credibility that you repeatedly attempt to justify intellectual property through analogies with physical property. If I steal a car, the dealer no longer has a car. If i pirate a movie, i have created another copy, the stores all have just as many as they used to. There are valid arguments for IP, but not through analogies with physical property. So that deflates half your argument.

    As far as no more movies being made...
    If enough people want to pay for movies, as you apparently do, then the movies will get made. How will it help anyone if I go without instead of pirating? If nobody but me can ever possibly know, how can anyone but me possibly be hurt? If we all choose to not watch movies, it has the same effect as everybody pirating them. Why should one be preferable to the producers than the other?

    The only reason I can come up with is a vague notion of injustice based on the idea that it is immoral to recieve any benefit without paying the creator of the benefit. It seems that it is maybe rude to not pay, but how is this rudeness anywhere near as bad as theft?
  • 6. Macromedia Dreamweaver
    7. Quicken
    8. Mastercook
    9. Greeting Card Workshop (no, really)
    10. Kodak DC40 connectivity
    11. SQL-Station

    I look forward to ports/equivalent apps for all of these someday.
  • by Musc ( 10581 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:05PM (#1574881) Homepage
    I agree completely. What right does anybody have to expect money just because you viewed a copy of their movie/software/music? What does the fact that you look at/copy it have to do with how much effort they put into it, how much it cost to make, and how much money they ought to make? If they make a movie, spending billions of dollars, and nobody pays to see it, well then they should have thought of that before making the movie. It is just like software. If the movie producers want to get rich making their movies, they must find a way to be paid for making them, NOT for viewing them. Just like software, movies are less valuable if fewer people can see them.

    You are completely justified in 'pirating' a movie rather than submitting to extortion. Think about it, how much more does it cost the movie producers when you view their movie? How much more work do they have to do when you give 1000 copies away? ZERO!! Asking to pay for copying is demanding something for nothing, which is most certainly wrong. Some people claim that viewing a movie without paying is getting something for nothing, and therefore stealing. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Viewing a movie gratis is getting nothing for nothing. You aren't getting anything, except the right to do something no one has the right to deny you.

    If this causes the movie industry to crumble and die, as is happening any time now with software and music, then so be it. Musicians will still write music, they have for years before copyright. Software will still be written, it is necessary for many aspects of life and business. If movies don't get made it is because nobody wants to pay. If nobody wants to pay, then obviously no one would care if they stop being made.
  • Linux was never "for servers." Linux expanded to server, it was a desktop UNIX. Look at the history, Linus wanted a cheap, good UNIX on his desktop and wasn't happy with Minux, nor was going to pay for Xenix (SCO by that time?). He also had a big ego. :-)

    If you want a server OS unix, you have FreeBSD whose goal was a server-class BSD unix on x86 (IMHO, its done a good job), or various nice UNICES, such as AIX or Solaris. But.. umm... don't think you'd often be watching dvds (heh.. and even already most are porn) on your Power4.
  • by tialaramex ( 61643 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:10PM (#1574884) Homepage
    You're way off :)

    The CSS stuff (which is where this breakthrough was) is NOT PATENTED
    If they had PATENTED it, we would have had working (but illegal) stuff last year. Instead, they kept it a TRADE SECRET. That has no legal protection, but it means it took an extra 12 months or so to get free code which works.

    For the player, no-one can legally make a FREE (as in Beer or as in Speech) player. You have to pay per-copy fees for at least some of the component technologies (AC3 comes to mind) in a player.

    However, just because it is ILLEGAL to make a free player, doesn't mean no-one has :)
    Anyway, the key breakthrough (CSS) means there's no major difference between "DVD Video on Linux" and "MPEG 2 on Linux", except a few silly add-on features. I can live without subtitles if I have to.
  • by jeremy f ( 48588 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:10PM (#1574886) Homepage
    Let's face it. No matter how much we push the code, no matter how much we optimize the routines, no matter how fast our machine is, there is *no* way a software decoder, open source or not, will outperform & look better than a hardware decoder.

    After we get the Linux-DVD project on the road to completion (now that CSS & Data encryption have been cracked, and a makeshift player has been put together -- way to go IceFox, a "snowball" effect is almost sure to start...) Within a few months, we should see quality (hopefully) GPL'ed players emerge. But there's something that really irks me. We need to concentrate on the manufacturers of hardware decoders. Creative has given somewhere between a very poor to slightly poor effort to bring drivers for it's DXR series of decoder cards to *NIX systems. They've opened up the SB Live drivers, but what of the DXRs? We need to e-mail, petition, press (not harass, just make our voices heard) to open up the source for the hardware decoder drivers. Many of you (including me and my DXR3) have a $70-$150 card in our computers that if we were to delete Windows, which some of us have, would become worthless to us. This is a shame -- and should be our next challenge to overcome.

    Way to go on the software. Now we need to get the hardware.
  • by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @08:13PM (#1574889) Homepage
    Look at what you're saying! Do you think that music and movies are some kind of god-given right? I don't care how inflated you think the prices are, that doesn't give you warrant to steal them.

    Extortion has to be the biggest stretch of the imagination. No one needs movies. You don't have to pay their price, but don't expect to get something for free, just because you don't think it's reasonable. I don't think it's reasonable to pay $35,000 for a car. I happen to know that cars do not cost that much to build. That, however, does not give me the right to walk into a Nissan dealership and drive off in a new Maxima without paying for it.

    If you don't pay for a movie, then the producers don't get a return on their investment. If they don't get their money back, they won't sink money into another film. Unless you're satisfied with a thousand films a year that all look like "Blair Witch", then someone needs to shell out a couple million.

    From your last comment, though, it seems like you wouldn't mind if the entire movie industry disappeared. Fine. Go fsck yourself because the rest of us enjoy it. People like you are nothing but theives. Go ahead and justify it by telling yourself that they are the one's who're extorting you. Its dillusional and no moral person would have any part in it.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • I can't begin to tell you how sick I am of people saying that theft of digital media is completely differnt than theft of physical media. Yes, it does have different ramifications, but the principle is the same.

    While digital media is certainly much easier to duplicate then the physical, it still costs money to produce. People have to be paid for their work, without which, that digital media would not exist. The costs of producing ANY media are defrayed (and turned into profit) by selling the product. No matter what it is, if you get it for free then you're obviously not paying the pricetag, and therefore not defraying the producers overhead.

    You (along with many others) make the argument that it doesn't make a difference whether you pirate it, because you wouldn't buy it in the first place. This is true in some ways, but it's on very shaky ground. If one person did what you suggest (pirates instead of going without) then there really is no difference.

    Imagine though, if everyone did that. Now nobody is paying for the content and the producer isn't seeing a penny to compensate for his work/investment. Suddenly the market for his product has no value for him and he will, unless he doesn't care about losing money, discontinue production of newer media.

    Here's the real issue: You're using something that a person just like you spent time and hard work to create. By not paying them, it's a slap in their face. If you don't respect them enough to pay their price, then don't use their product. I don't care what it is - Music, Video, Software, whatever.

    I guess you're right though: It's not theft in the traditional sense of the word. You aren't actually stealing anything, just copying it. But it is theft by the legal definition. You are violating another persons right to profit off of the use of their intellectual property. You're also causing the destruction of a market that you obviously enjoy to some extent. Have a little foresight and do the right thing. If the price is too high then vote with your feet -- don't use the product.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

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