Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×

Mandriva 2007 Released 173

Posted by kdawson from the ia-ora-to-you-too dept.
moyoto writes, "Mandriva has announced today the immediate availability of Mandriva Linux 2007. This new version includes the latest Gnome 2.16 and KDE 3.5.4, as well as a 3D desktop with both AIGLX and Xgl technologies. You can download Mandriva 2007 in one of the several free versions available with bittorrent, or buy one of the commercial packs. You can easily test the new 3D Desktop with one of the 16 Live/Install CDs, Gnome- or KDE-based, available in more than 70 different languages." The distro features a new theme named Ia Ora ("hello" in French Polynesian).
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Mandriva 2007 Released More

Mandriva 2007 Released

Comments Filter:

  • Bloated (Score:5, Funny)

    by millwall ( 622730 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:26PM (#16296017)
    This new version includes the latest Gnome 2.16 and KDE 3.5.4, as well as a 3D desktop with both AIGLX and Xgl technologies.

    With Mandriva it's probably easier to list what it doesn't include.

    • Re:Bloated (Score:5, Insightful)

      by CastrTroy ( 595695 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:28PM (#16296065)
      But that's the way some of us like it. Why should I have to download and compile some .tar.gz files rather than just opening up the GUI, selecting the packages I want, and install. No need to worry about dependancies or weird compile errors.
      • There is always things like apt. No need to have it all on the install media.

        • Re:Bloated (Score:4, Insightful)

          by ronadams ( 987516 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:52PM (#16296529) Homepage
          There are always things like install media. No need to require everything be obtained from apt. It's a war of preference.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by Shawn is an Asshole ( 845769 )
            It's a pain in the ass to have to swap multiple CDs during an install. Especially when you get to #4 and the drive doesn't want to read a file off of it.

            Ubuntu has the right idea on this. The install media is a single CD that contains a usable desktop. Everything else can then be installed over apt (though they really need to make a n00b-friendly alternative to Synaptic). If you want a specific desktop, download the correct CD for it. Ie, Gnome (Ubuntu), KDE (Kubuntu), or XFCE (Xubuntu).

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by taylortbb ( 759869 )
              Why choose? Mandriva has a multi-disk version and a single disk one. And the multi-CD version has a single DVD version. Not every location has a high speed internet connection, and even if it does it takes a while. As someone who installs most of what's on the DVD it sure beats waiting for everything to download. Sure I have to download it initially but when I've got 5 machines to install on it takes less time in the end.
            • though they really need to make a n00b-friendly alternative to Synaptic


              They did. Applications->Add/Remove... opens a simple install/uninstall gui, that includes most apps that someone who's likely to be confused by Synaptic could possibly want. It's at least as easy as MS's add/remove programs in Control Panel. Need more? File->advanced in that same program will open Synaptic.
        • But if there's room for it, then why not? It still all fits on a single DVD. If I have to download all the packages I want to install then it may take me ages to get the initial install done. Not everybody has a 5 Mbit connection. I'm on a 1Mbit connection, because it's fast enough for most stuff. But I don't want to have to download all the packages that I want to install.
          • A DVD/full-featured CD install is convenient for doing additional machines, and when it's a live disk you can take advantage of that for rescue, hardware compatibility checking, and having your OS of choice portable to any machine you like.
            My install media weigh the same if I burn Damn Small Linux or a full DVD worth of software. :)

        • Re:Bloated (Score:4, Informative)

          by meringuoid ( 568297 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @05:06PM (#16297611)
          There is always things like apt. No need to have it all on the install media.

          Yes... and it seems they've thought of this. There's a single-CD download, which installs a minimal system and then lets you get the rest over the network. I'll be getting this one, I think: I don't care to clutter up my room with unnecessary coasters!

          http://qa.mandriva.com/torrent/2007/mandriva-fre e-2007-mini.torrent

          Soon as the ADSL contention clears tonight at about half-elevenish, I'll totally nab that.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by scott_karana ( 841914 )
        In any modern Linux distribution (and even most antiquated ones) ther is no need to worry about downloading tarballs or compiling.
        It's just a matter of how many packages are installed by default, and I respect the fact that you like having lots of 'em to choose from.
        I'm just being a pedant about packaging systems for Linux is all.

    • Re:Bloated (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Svartalf ( 2997 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:31PM (#16296117) Homepage
      And to list what works 100% on all systems...

      Not everything in the past has worked right (There's a reason I'm using FC5 or Ubuntu
      right at the moment for my main systems...)- their SQA has left quite a bit to be
      desired in the past. To be sure, 2006-1 was probably one of their best iterations;
      but like before in the past, things like PCMCIA not working 100% of the time on 100%
      of the platforms just mar the whole experience. Oh, I'll continue to be a member and
      install on part of my platforms, but that's because I'm needing it for testing purposes.
      Unless it really shows up nice and stable, it's not going on everything.

      • Re:Bloated (Score:5, Insightful)

        by nine-times ( 778537 ) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @04:06PM (#16296787) Homepage
        To be fair, what OS works 100% of the time on 100% of the platforms it supports? Maybe OSX comes close, but only by limiting the supported platforms quite a lot.

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by Afrosheen ( 42464 )
          Yeah, OSX has bragging rights with hardware compatibility.

            "Our OS will run on every single supported platform. All 5 of them!" ;)

          • Laugh it up (Score:4, Interesting)

            by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <.ten.yxox. .ta. .nidak.todhsals.> on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @05:34PM (#16297969) Homepage Journal
            Make fun all you want, but I've said multiple times that the way Apple does peripheral hardware ought to be a model for Linux and any other non-Windows OS.

            Back before I just threw in the towel and started drilling holes in my walls, I would have killed a man for a "Linux 802.11 Card." When you want a wireless card for your Mac, you go into a store, and you buy it. Note that I said "it," not "one." Because there's only one. (Okay, at some points there have been multiple, i.e. Airport vs. Airport Extreme, but most computers could only take one or the other.) Yeah, it costs more, but there's no messing around with anything.

            I've wondered if maybe some Linux User's Group wanted to do this as a fund-raiser: do a bulk-purchase of some Linux-compatible peripheral (say a WL card or TV tuner) in OEM packaging, and then wrap it up with the appropriate drivers and sell it over the web at a 50-60% markup. I think you'd move product -- too often do you get recommendations for a product that works well, only to find that it's been discontinued or only sold in some other country, or it's nearly impossible to tell which products use it. (This was my experience finding Prism-based WL cards.)

            Laugh all you want, but "choice" isn't always good, particularly when it means just having a high signal/noise ratio. Having one and only one hardware configuration available is better than having a thousand hardware configurations available, if only one or two of them works perfectly. In the first case, you have a 100% chance of getting the 'good' config, in the latter, you might as well buy Lotto tickets.
            • As someone said previously in the conversation about software media, it is a war of choice. With multiple selections you get a mix of price, features and performance. But the costs is potential install issues that vary between peripherals of the same type. Besides, very few vendors make hardware specifically for Linux.

              That said, a LUG could not afford to purchase hardware in bulk and hope they have enough customers to buy all of it over a short period of time. Hardware changes (improves) too rapidly an

              • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

                by lordofthechia ( 598872 )
                Maybe manufacturers could be convinced to submit their hardware for linux testing and award them a logo they could attach (or imprint) on their product to demonstrate Linux compatibility... Just a though and sure most may not care but it could be a start.

                Or we could draft up a generic letter to some manufacturers statings something along the lines of:

                "Your (insert product here) has met or exceeded criteria to be considered ready for linux thanks to (community/oem drivers). As such please feel free to atta
                • I actually have hardware that is 'promised' (no certification program I am aware of) to run on Linux. All my Keyspan USB hardware (USB to serial adaptor) comes with the penguin right on the box (next to the Windows Logo and the MacOS X logo) as did my USB to IDE adaptor (Newer Technology USB 2.0 Universal Drive Adapter). Somewhere I have some network gear with our buddy Tux on the box too.

                  Some vendors do care enough to show it.

            • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

              by Mad_Rain ( 674268 )
              I've wondered if maybe some Linux User's Group wanted to do this as a fund-raiser: do a bulk-purchase of some Linux-compatible peripheral (say a WL card or TV tuner) in OEM packaging, and then wrap it up with the appropriate drivers and sell it over the web at a 50-60% markup.

              In case you haven't heard, there is a HDTV tuner card made specifically for linux [pchdtv.com], to receive Over-The-Air hdtv broadcasts, and analogue cable channels. I believe that as of kernel 2.6.12, driver modules are included with the kernel
        • what OS works 100% of the time on 100% of the platforms it supports?

          Windows XB [xbox.com].

      • Not everything in the past has worked right ... - their SQA has left quite a bit to be desired in the past.

        Here's an example even more basic than PCMCIA issues.

        I own a pretty standard Microsoft optical mouse (2 buttons, plus that wheelie thing). My last attempt with Mandrake/Mandriva the installer system found the mouse and worked great, but after installation it could never find the mouse. Just try navigating without a mouse, even just to try to find the control panel for the mouse.

        How could the in

    • ... it has a new, French Polynesian, "Hello World" theme!

      If only it were "Hello Kitty" I dould download it at once for my niece.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Liam Slider ( 908600 )
      No, what's bloated is when you buy and install the lastest version of Windows, which is about the same size and takes just as long....only to find your list of applications is one web browser, a media player, one rather crappy shell, one e-mail program, a calendar, one built in photo gallery (finally?), one crappy DVD burning program, and a handful of crappy tools.

  • Pfffttt... (Score:3, Funny)

    by gEvil (beta) ( 945888 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:29PM (#16296091)
    It's just like Mandriva 2006 only it has a new player roster...
    • The funny thing is that Linux might actually be more popular with Madden-esque voice overs plugged in as error messages. Like clippy, only openly farsical.

      EX:
      "OOOoh.... It looks like he's caused a segmentation fault. That's gotta hurt."
      "Wow. Now, that there's just some good old fashioned permissions problems. He's gonna need to log as root and run some chmod and chown commands."
      "You know, right there's where you really have the option of some good coding. The rehashing of that string with the library function would make your code quite a bit more efficient. Just like in the old days."

      And everyone's favorite,
      "Boy, that's a good little piece of code, but you could really use a run back to the manual on that one."

      I'd love to see the whiteboard-enabled screen on my code sometimes, and have someone who knew what they were doing scribble out what was wrong with it, but maybe that's just me.

  • Distibution Errors: #1 (Score:4, Informative)

    by bfree ( 113420 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:30PM (#16296103)
    Announcing a new release and having your web site melt under the load. Though I suppose it could be worse, they could be a hosting provider launching a new high availability service :-D

  • Today is the day of desktop linux! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Reverend528 ( 585549 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:31PM (#16296135) Homepage
    A new Slackware and a new Mandriva! What a time to be alive!
    • Mandriva - great for home usage, everything works smoothly. The moment you install it at the office, where your home folder is nfs mounted - pletora of things stops working. For example Amarok. Strange KDE bugs show their ugly faces on nfs mounted home.
      • Make sure you have file locking configured correctly. If you see the nolock option in /etc/mtab (it's implicit with some options) or if you don't have the NFS lock daemon running, you won't be able to run apps which require file locking.
  • I dunno if this new oral theme will fly with my gf...

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by joebutton ( 788717 )
      > dunno if this new oral theme will fly with my gf...

      Get yourself a Windows box. It'll go down much more often than your gf.

  • Mandriva/Ubuntu. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by haeger ( 85819 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:40PM (#16296321)
    I recently tested Mandriva (LiveCD) on my KUbuntu-box. I must say that I'm very impressed with how polished Mandriva is. KUbuntu isn't bad, far from it but Mandriva is just better. Atleast the latest version. Just like KUbuntu everything just works but there is a consistensy in Mandriva that I don't see in KUbuntu. I really recommend everyone to take Mandriva for a testdrive. It's really impressive. I was going to switch my old Mandriva2006-box to KUbuntu but seeing this new version I don't think I will. I'll just do the normal upgrade-dance and all will be well.
    One thing that annoys me though is the high price for the retail version. A silver membership will be more expensive than Vista in just 2-3 years. I think.

    I might have to re-evaluate running KUbuntu on my laptop. I do however remember that there was something that annoyed me so much about the packages in Mandriva that I just had to switch. I think it was the fact that new packages came to the distribution at such a slow pace.

    .haeger

    • Re:Mandriva/Ubuntu. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by l3v1 ( 787564 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:55PM (#16296587)
      A silver membership will be more expensive than Vista in just 2-3 years. I think

      Just one question: what do you think how many new releases Mandriva will live to see during those years ? And Windows ? I'm not saying it's cheap, I'm saying your comparison is flawed.

    • A silver membership will be more expensive than Vista in just 2-3 years.

      Or 4-6 years for 2 PCs.

      Or 6-9 years for 3 PCs.

      Or 20-30 years if you install on a small office or install for relatives too.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by AdamWill ( 604569 )
      Er, what? The kernel is 2.6.17. There isn't even a 2.4 kernel in the distro any more (we still had a legacy one in 2006).

  • I prefer SUSE, Fedora or Ubuntu (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Yahma ( 1004476 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:48PM (#16296471) Journal

    This will probably get modded down as flamebait, but honestly I prefer SUSE over Mandriva (Mandrake). I have tried Mandrake many times over the past few years, and even joined their "Mandrake Club" a few years back when they were on the brink of Bankruptcy to help them out; however, I have always felt that their Distro was never QA'ed as well as SUSE or Redhat for that matter. When you fire up the latest SUSE, you tell you have a professionally QA'ed product, as everything works out of the box. With Mandriva on the other hand, everything looks great on paper. They always have some of the latest packages, and include alot of the new technology; however, there are always a few things that dont work well with my system after I install it. In fact, on more than one occasion, I've even had trouble installing a new release of Mandriva.

    Now I have nothing against Mandriva, and I like urmpi, but I think I may pass on this release, or try it out on a Virtual machine first before getting rid of my SUSE and Fedora boxes.... Now there's a thought..

    Yahma
    Browse the web safely, use Firefox [getfirefox.com] and an Anonymous Web Proxy [blastproxy.com] to avoid spyware and viruses.
    • I found the exact opposite with SUSE. I recently tried SUSE 10.1, and after a new install, it wouldn't even update itself. And I couldn't even get the 3D drivers working with all I tried, and in Mandriva they just work by default. It looked really nice and polished, so much so that I really tried to get everything working, but there was just so many problems with things "Just Not Working" that I switched back to Mandriva. Now Mandriva has the 3D desktop too, and I have no reason to use SUSE.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by tljlb ( 196502 )
      I have to agree. We ran Mandrake/Mandriva almost exclusively for five years and moved to SUSE simply because of QA problems, at times problems a team of brain-damaged monkeys couldn't have missed. Of course, now that SUSE has Zen, I REALLY miss urpmi. Still wouldn't move back though. At least SUSE works reliably.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ReinoutS ( 1919 )
        Mandriva Linux 2007 is the first Mandriva release developed on a 1-year release cycle, which means it has received lots of QA. Having followed the release process quite closely (as close as you can get as a non-employee), I have no doubts about recommending it for anyone to try.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      From http://en.opensuse.org/Download [opensuse.org]:

      BEFORE YOU INSTALL READ THIS:

      The package manager in SUSE 10.1 is regrettably broken on most systems.

      I wouldn't be bragging about QA on a distro that ships with a broken package manager (sort of an integral part of the OS).

  • No distro comes close to Mandriva for ease of use. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by IpSo_ ( 21711 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @03:50PM (#16296509) Homepage Journal
    In my opinion Mandriva still takes the cake as far as distro ease of use is concerned. The installer is dead simple (yet has an advanced mode) but the most important part is once you get it installed, it has the most complete set of utilities to configure and maintain your system which are accessible from a single "control panel". Everything from one click network printer discovery, to setting up TV cards/scanners, to firewall configuration.

    Sure some of the other distros are just starting to catch up now, they usually have a hodge-podge of utilties that work similar to the Mandriva ones, but few have a consistent interface and you usually need to know what they are called before you know what to click on, they aren't all located in one easy to find place. If you want a distro your mom can install and use, this is about as close as it comes currently.

    Here is the list of just some of the custom utilties Mandriva (Mandrake) offers for configuring your system:

    lsnetdrake,menudrake,drakbug,mandrakegalaxy.real,d rakconf,drakhelp,localedrake,drakoo,draklocale,man drakegalaxy,packdrake,userdrake,lspcidrake,diskdra ke,mousedrake,drakkeyboard,drakhelp_inst,drakconne ct,drakconsole,drakupdate_fstab,drakTermServ,drakn et_monitor,drakscanner,drakedm,drakids,draklog,dra knfs,drakx11,draksec,drakups,drakxtv,drakfirstboot ,drakconf.real,drakbackup,drakauth,drakboot,drakcl ub,drakconf,drakdisk,drakfont,drakperm,drakroam,dr akuser,drakautoinst,drakgw,keyboarddrake,drakonlin e,drakfirewall,draksplash,drakhardware,draksambash are,scannerdrake,drakxservices,logdrake,adduserdra ke,drakclock,drakhosts,harddrake2,drakmouse,drakpr oxy,draksound,drakxconf,userdrake,XFdrake,printerd rake,drakbug_report,drakprinter

    • Re:No distro comes close to Mandriva for ease of u (Score:5, Insightful)

      by opkool ( 231966 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @04:05PM (#16296781) Homepage
      +1

      Plus, there is the **other** configuration utility included in Mandriva that everybody forgets:

      vi

      Yes, you can use vi to configure your Mandriva and be happy.

      That's why I like Mandriva, choice:

      If I'm lazy or I want to show off, I use the Mandriva Control Center.
      If I want to configure something fast, screen + vi

      I wonder if those who call Mandriva a n00b distro have ever try it to use Mandriva as a serious distro. I do.

      Peace!
      • I do as well. I've been using it pretty much since its first release. It has the same basic layout as Redhat, uses a similar PAM configuration with pam-stack - unlike SuSE the last time I fought with it, and takes most Redhat RPMs without too much tooling around. Source RPMs tend to compile easily as well. The installer tends to do a better job at setting up hardware, and the dkms support is a pleasant surprise for keeping up with drivers that need to be compiled for each new kernel. I haven't had any probl
    • I've had to fight with Mandriva installs since 9.1 to get my touchpad (barely) working. My machine worked more cleanlu two versions back, than it does now. *Fight*, I tell you. Not to mention the broken Kat and gam_server problems (act like malware on Windows, eating up scads memory and CPU time), badly incomplete documentation installed (for many K-applications) problems with Kiosk installs (crap like Mindawn, a paid music subscription service I'll never use with dependencies on the other stuff in the bun

    • When it works. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by pavon ( 30274 )
      My experiance with setting up hardware using the Mandrake control panel a couple years ago, was that when it worked it was easy as cake, but if it didn't you were worse off then having nothing. For example, I was attempting to setup a hauppauge TV tuner card, which I knew was supported in linux. The rest of the install so far had been a snap and it recognized all my hardware with no problems. So I run the TV tuner card setup from the control panel, it pops up a dialog box saying it is setting up my card th
    • I'm glad it worked out for you, but I'm unconvinced that your experience is commonplace. Three (or was it four?) years ago, I tried to find a Linux distro that worked for me. I was fairly technically proficient, but I had no Unix experience and I didn't have the patience to spend more than a day (12~ hours) getting the basics to work. Red Hat (this was pre-FC) was first on my list--the installer inexplicably froze. Knoppix gave me all kinds of crap about my graphics card. I went down the list, including
  • Remember when Mandrake 9 had bragging rights for its multimedia support? You could actually do music editing - audio and even midi - and Mandrake was your distro. Then remember when it merged with Connectiva, and we lost multimedia, and even 3D? Then remember what happened after that? I don't, 'cause I switched. I really loved Mandrake 9.x, and when they get back to their strengths I might even switch back, but until then, it's pretty much like the "player roster" comment above... all fluff, no stuff.
    • Er, what? Merging with Conectiva didn't change anything at all about MDV's multimedia support. We didn't take anything out in that line, at least on purpose. What are you missing? And, um, we never removed anything to do with 3D support. Might have been some bugs in 2005 or 2006, but that's bugs, not intentional changes...
    • Mandriva's niche is also supposed to be user friendliness. What? you can't have 2 distros supporting the same niche?
  • Do you get the security updates and updates to the softwares with the free version?

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by AdamWill ( 604569 )
      Yes. Always have, always will. Run MandrivaUpdate, there they are. We sell Online, but that's an update _notification_ service - it gives you the little panel applet that alerts you when updates are available (and, optionally, can install them automatically). It's just a little convenience.
  • Is there or will there be a PPC version?

    I can't seem to find one for this or the previous version :(
    • I think they stopped doing PPC releases at version 9. And now with all the Macs being Intel machines, I can't forsee anybody supporting PowerPC. Unless you go to a PPC specific distro like YellowDog, I don't think you're going to find a lot of distros that support PPC.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by AdamWill ( 604569 )
      There are no official PPC releases any more. The PPC port still exists and is maintained by volunteers (principally Danny Tholen, actually). They haven't had the resources to do a stable release since, I think, 10.1 or 2005, but Cooker is still kept mostly up to date and works pretty well. If you really want to run Mandriva on PPC, go with current Cooker. Frankly, though, I'd recommend a dedicated distro like Yellow Dog unless you specifically want Mandriva, because you're comfortable with it or all your o

  • Web site slow . . .download links below (Score:4, Informative)

    by jonesy16 ( 595988 ) on Tuesday October 03, 2006 @04:36PM (#16297199)
    Since the site is slow to respond, here are the download links for the 3CD version for i586 and x86_64, these are bit torrents . . .

    i586
    ------
    http://qa.mandriva.com/torrent/2007/mandriva-free- 2007-CD.i586.torrent [mandriva.com]

    x86_64
    ------
    http://qa.mandriva.com/torrent/2007/mandriva-free- 2007-CD.x86_64.torrent [mandriva.com]

    dual architecture DVD
    ----------------------
    http://qa.mandriva.com/torrent/2007/mandriva-free- 2007-DVD.torrent [mandriva.com]

  • Here's what I'd like to know:

    • How close does it get to solving the dependency hell problem? This is probably my biggest single problem with Mandriva.
    • How's Menudrake? That's one of my other big headaches with Mandriva. How easily can you modify the main menu now?
    • Where can I find a complete list of packages included? I have some very specific wants that the Mandriva website doesn't discuss.
    • Are the problems with SCIM resolved? A lot of people just basically unplugged it, but I have to use it because I use

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by N7DR ( 536428 )
      How close does it get to solving the dependency hell problem? This is probably my biggest single problem with Mandriva.

      I don't have an answer, but I agree that that is one of the two problems that finally got to the point where I switched from Mandriva to Kubuntu a couple of months ago. Compared to Mandriva, Kubuntu is a bit... weird :-) But that's probably just because I've been using Mandrake/Mandriva since 2000. I'll try out 2007, but it will have to have improved vastly in three areas for me to cons

  • Does Bronze == Standard???

    Also, when you try to upgrade your membership, it sends you to the download page where you have no access because your membership level is too low. When you click the link to renew/upgrade you go back to the download page... Rinse, repeat. Great Q/A on the club site.

  • Anyone know what happened with the contest [mandriva.com] of login/logout sounds for Mandriva 2007? I'd hate to download the entire ISO just to see who won...

Slashdot Top Deals

Love may laugh at locksmiths, but he has a profound respect for money bags. -- Sidney Paternoster, "The Folly of the Wise"

Close