License Plate Tracking for the Average Citizen 340
Wired News is reporting that big-brother license plate tracking systems may soon be available to the average citizen. Privacy advocates, however, worry that personal information and associated movement could be used inappropriately by marketing companies. From the article: "Bucholz, who designed some of the first mobile license plate reading, or LPR, equipment, gave a presentation at the 2006 National Institute of Justice conference here last week laying out a vision of the future in which LPR does everything from helping insurance companies find missing cars to letting retail chains chart customer migrations. It could also let a nosy citizen with enough cash find out if the mayor is having an affair, he says."
Big brother here we come! (Score:5, Interesting)
Good Excerpt from the article:
LPR cameras, which are usually around the size of a can of tomato sauce, can be mounted on police cruisers and powered by cigarette lighters. As the car moves, the camera bounces infrared light off other vehicles' license plates. The camera reads the plates and feeds them to a laptop in real time, where information from an FBI or local database can tell an officer if the car is hot. Some systems can read up to 60 plates per second, and they work at highway speeds and acute angles.
Free Windows Admin Tools [intelliadmin.com]
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:5, Funny)
Buy one, get a tin-foil hat free.
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:2)
England (Score:2)
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Interesting)
Everyone seams to complain about information like this being used for marketing reasons, but I for one think that is probably the best use for it. I like the idea of marketing companies actually targeting me with things I may want, instead of crap I would never use because they do not ha
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:2)
I would like to have just a local record of cars I encounter daily. Just a thats the bus that turns right in 200 feet, not the one that stops at every stop in the upcoming no passing zone. Also thats the car that completely stops before making a left turn...
Just a few too many vehicles to remember or look up in a list while moving.
I agree (Score:4, Insightful)
However, with better marketing information, we cut out all the places we know people aren't going to be interested. The result: less pointless adverts everywhere.
I wouldn't get car insurance circulars through my door, millions of pizza delivery ads, or loads v14gr4 spam, -if only- they knew I wasn't interested in them.
Proper marketing information helps *all parties involved*. Unfortunately so many people have a deluded sense of grandure and think "omg they're watching *me*" like there's someone with a telescope watching and giggling everytime you fart. No company has that much time! It's usually done statistically.
Navigation systems (Score:2)
http://www.trafficmaster.co.uk/page.cfm?key=traff
(never used their products, bought their stock or worked for them, but I've driven past their cameras plenty of times).
Re:Navigation systems (Score:2)
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:jE-HE3fd-eEJ:ww w.trafficmaster.co.uk/page.cfm%3Fkey%3Dnetwork_ptf m-network+&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox -a [66.102.9.104]
(TM's Coldfusion site has boiled over, hence from Google cache)
says that they '"grab" the four centre digits of a vehicle number plate' - although how you grab the four central digits of a UK 7-character plate I don't know. Does identifying a car to within about 1 i
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, this is great. Now I'll be able to track down the information on that little mf'r that cut me off on the freeway this morning and key his car. Hey, and how about that hot blonde number I saw at the red light? I'm sure she wouldn't mind me showing up at her home or job and hitting on her. And if she turns me down, well, I know where she lives. I know, let's reverse this and make it real time! Then I can track where the owners of a house are while I "browse" through their belongings, and get warning when they get within 5 miles.
Isn't this fun? I bet I could come up with great uses for this tech all day long.
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Dude, I'm just gonna wire this up outside of the local adult video store, and post a real-time list of people who visit, with their name and address. I could probably make this a for-profit service, where folks sign up their spouses' tags and I message them when they visit. Or I can link it to public official records, and snap a photo or video if a politician's car shows up."
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:2)
You are incorrect. It helps you gain a greater profit, which is not reinvested in the product.
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Interesting)
You are incorrect. It helps you gain a greater profit, which is not reinvested in the product.
Actually you are incorrect. I was not just talking about greater profit, I am talking about actual features added. By knowing what parts of the program people use the most, we can find what areas to spend the most development time on. Instead of just listening to the loudest complainers, we can help all of our c
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, asking our customers is faaaaar more intrusive. Who wants to have phone calls from every company they buy from to fill out surveys? And it usually is not as good of information anyway.
Most customers have no idea what they want. They want 20 more buttons on the screen, but they also think the screen is too "busy" looking. They never do actual analysis of what parts of t
A Pity Google Didn't Come Up With This (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Informative)
I imagine this automated system is more intended to be an aid to the police officer rather than a comp
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, then what? The police get to just confiscate your car because some "magic box" says so?
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:5, Funny)
With a mental image of a cop wielding a jar of Ragu while his partner shovels in Bic lighters to keep it going, I have hard time taking this seriously.
San Francisco License Plate Reading (Score:2)
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Big brother here we come! (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no big reason to fear this any more than there is reason to fear the fact that the phone company has a record of every phone call you've ever made. They have, undoubtedly, used that information internally in research projects to form network diagrams and could very well do the 6-degrees game if they felt so inclined.
I can see how it might be profitable to know where I've been, and where and when I might not be at home/work/etc. This will certainly cause me to think more about personal security. But it won't shed light on any activities that I don't want people to know about.
In small towns everyone knew about everyone else, and still kept quiet and were civil - within reason - because they all had to live together. I think this notion of "public privacy" where one should be able to go to the store without anyone knowing is a relatively new desire, and quite frankly many, if not most, fears of losing it are overblown.
But think about the possibilities if this technology - I'll call this "public neutrality" where I, as an endpoint user of the public space am not restricted from what I can and cannot record and analyze.
I've been thinking about this technology for some time. What I'd like to have is a HUD, this license plate reader, and an internet connection. Then we simply need to develop CML - car markup language.
Above every car messages about that car from other drivers are displayed, not unlike photo tags.
Litterer
Doesn't signal
Has gun
Tailgater
Cell phoner stoner
Plain stupid
etc.
Then we can do the same with facial recognition systems.
Use GPS, a 3 axis magnetometer, and a 3 axis accelerometer and you can mark up buildings and other physically stationary objects.
Then - and this is the next cool bit - you build all this into a flashlight. But the flashlight is actually a miniature handheld projecter. You can actually shine it around without wearing a HUD and it'll paint the tags on whatever you're pointing at for everyone else to see. You could print the "loser" on someone's forehead.
Of course, I've just described several patentable ideas. They are now public domain, assuming they have not yet been applied for. So go out and make them already!
In the rare chance that someone needs to use this as prior art in 10-20 years, contact me at http://ubasics.com [ubasics.com]. If you want me to build them, contact me sooner.
And if someone is curious about where my car is or has been for the last while, no need to spend thousands of dollars on cameras, just check out my tracking system [ubasics.com]. (please note that it is active only during testing periods. Go back a few thousand points and you'll find my trip to Georgia and Alabama. Let me know if you can determine which of my relatives I visited and how I'm related - that would be interesting detective work.)
-Adam
Stalkers' Boon (Score:4, Insightful)
And it gets worse. (Score:5, Insightful)
See a cute girl in a bar? Just get her plate number when she leaves. The cough up the cash and you can find where her car is normally seen. Like where she lives and where she works.
You know, I'd rather take my chances that my car won't be recovered (most of them are stolen for "joy rides" anyway and the most of the rest are chopped) or that someone without insurance will crash into me.
And yes, once the technology is available, SOMEONE will sell the info it gathers.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2)
Far easier to put a tracker on their car. *cough* I've heard.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2)
To use a too tired cliche:
1) Offer subscription service to businesses to scan customer license plates for "loyalty" rewards program.
2) Tie all cameras installed back to a central database.
3) With enough businesses paying you to collect the data, you can now track the movements of a significant chunk of people.
4) Start selling tracking information to anyone who is willing to pay.
So much profit involved in almost every step, that I can't imagine no one will actually do it.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2, Insightful)
Are you under the impression that something must be "made" readily available to the general public for it to be readily available to the general public?
It's disturbing enough for it to be available to the general non-public.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2)
Not the point (Score:5, Interesting)
I want this stuff made available to the general public. I don't want it to be the private data of the cops, or the politicians who control the cops. I want everybody to be able to snoop on those politicians just as they snoop on the people they want to control.
It won't be the "politicians" that are tracked. (Score:2)
Yep. And the cops have SOME oversight on their actions. And we've all heard the reports of cops going bad.
Now, this technology will be in the hands of people without ANY oversight.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2)
Yeah, but, what's to stop enterprising Joe Hacker, public citizen, from setting up IR cameras to scan for plates most anywhere...establish his own website to publish patterns..either freely or for sale.
Re:Stalkers' Boon (Score:2)
Warning warning warning! (Score:5, Funny)
Punch the monkey to find out how to protect yourself.
Neat trick (Score:5, Funny)
Now if only someone can code an extension that will tell me where I left my car keys...
Re:Neat trick (Score:2)
cat coffeetable.txt | grep car_keys
Public places are ... public (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:2)
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:2)
No, but my vehicle happens to be registered to me. My driver's license lists my home address. My vehicle is also often parked at my home address (do the math). My telephone number is available in (reverse lookup as well) the yellow pages.
But that has nothing to do with this technology. This just let's people capture your license plate. So what's your point?
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:2)
But I think we already have plenty of laws against the actions of those who would use this kind of thing to further their own illegal ends.
The difference is the technology. (Score:2)
And if there were someone hanging out in a public place, making notes of what vehicles he sees, that would be one thing. Someone would be sure to call the cops to report a "possible terrorist" who is casing the place.
But with this technology, someone can record the plate numbers without his actions being noticed.
And once you remove the possiblity of the surveillance being observed, you o
Re:The difference is the technology. (Score:2)
I disagree.
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:3, Insightful)
Sigh. A camera with OCR software isn't that big an idea. The notion that it wasn't possible is a little naiive - as is the idea that this is the first time it's happened.
This is the first time it's been AVAILABLE to you and me for cheap.
I'm sure you'd be quite annoyed if someone was following you around all day. This is no different. People may see I go to the grocery store, but I don't feel like anyone has
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:2)
No, I don't suppose we'd have known. And I don't suppose it'd be the police.
The difference is that you could then pick up and leave town, and start over again somewhere. With this technology and the internet, can you really leave your old life behind anymore?
And here is one of the points where you and I will probably just differ. I believe that people are who they were, and t
Re:Public places are ... public (Score:2)
I won't even tell you what a person with a chainsaw can do!
but OMG!!1!! Watch out for the people who might look at your car and read the letters advertised on the front and back!!!
Used by McDonalds (Score:2)
Re:Used by McDonalds (Score:2)
I think if I found out a place was using it, I would drive right by.
Re:Used by McDonalds (Score:2)
Remember you get such huge piles of crapp advertisement because nobody knows what you may want so they have to send you everything. At least this way advertising may be of things you actually are interested in.
This is damned good stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
Same with public cameras. Once we get cameras all over the place, whether controlled by private citizens, or whether public cameras which everyone can see instead of just the cops, a lot more ordinary joes will be observing the rich and powerful than vice versa.
The Colt revolver was the great equalizer of the 1800s, making the average person just as deadly as those who had the time to practice swordsmanship. Computer cameras like these license plate readers and public webcams will be the great equalizer of the 2000s. I relish the equalization of power these will bring.
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
http://industrial-coatings.globalspec.com/Industr
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
a foolproof way for the police to get the real plate number whenever
they wanted it.
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
'course, it's mostly illegal to have a handgun nowadays.
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:3, Informative)
of states require a permit to own one (CA, NY, any others?).
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an effort to make those tests harder in order to reduce legal gun ownership...
Do you think the Mayor's data will be there? (Score:3, Insightful)
>there's will be a lot more people interested in where the mayor's
>car goes than the other way round.
I'm sure the people in power will make sure that certain license plates are exempted from being displayed.
Steve
Brin's "The Transparent Society" (Score:2)
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:3)
"Fear no man, no matter what his size. Just call on me, in time of need, and I will equalize." - ~1870s ad for the Colt Peacemaker
Re:This is damned good stuff (Score:2)
Foot, meet bullet. (Score:4, Funny)
CFO: You dumbass! The mayor is the guy who signs the check! You just terrified our entire customer base! ...b-but I said "with enough cash". It's not like just any citizen could use i-
Bucholz:
CFO: NO! Remember your mantra. "Citizen is to sheep as Mayor is to farmer." Nothing more. Nothing less. Go now. Do not speak to me again until you've meditated upon your mantra for another week.
86 Camaro Style... (Score:2)
Or, if you don't want to get too technical, how about some dirt?
Re:86 Camaro Style... (Score:2)
Just another sample of our government spending millions for a tool that can be avoided for a $5 made in China piece of plastic.
-Rick
In the UK... (Score:2)
Not quite public information, but I remember doing a few searches on friends and relatives ca
Everything old is new again (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Everything old is new again (Score:2)
Those are typically called "plat books." As you imply, you can still get them, but they're not usually free anymore. Your local public library probably has a current one for your county. Here in the big (ha!) city, they're not terribly useful because they don't usually show the owners of individual lots, just the names of housing developments.
But they've become irrelevant in a lot of places anyway. See, for example, this website [kcgov.com] or this [macoggis.com]
Re:Everything old is new again (Score:2)
I'm inclined to think that if "everyone" has access to the comings and goings of people, it ceases to be news, and just returns us all to "one big happy neighborhood". It's if only the government has the access that I start worring about Big Brother.
Geoff
Captcha (Score:4, Funny)
Or if.... (Score:3, Insightful)
They can get you for minor things even easier... (Score:2)
Some systems can read up to 60 plates per second, and they work at highway speeds and acute angles.
The next step is connecting the technology to databases that will tell cops whether a sexual offender has failed to register in the state or is loitering too close to a school, or whether a driver has an outstanding warrant. It could also snag you if you're uninsured, if your license expired last week or even if your library books are overdue.
Ok, I don't have a problem with this being used to
In the hands of the public... (Score:2)
My concern is (slightly) less about the government using this technology to identify cars for criminal investigation/prosicution (the sex offender's car in front of a school for example). But what about social groups that have strong opinions and motivation that do not directly corellate to
Police Already Use Info Inappropriately (Score:4, Interesting)
I can't see this information becoming more easily accessible the least bit comforting or reassuring.
Re:Police Already Use Info Inappropriately (Score:3, Interesting)
Now wait a minute. There are two separate issues here.
The police officer has every right to run cars' license plates through the police systems and pull up the owners' private information, including names, addresses, ages, and driving/criminal records. However, t
In New Hampshire .... (Score:2)
I've learnt that you can have exactly the number on a standard and a moose plate, different cars, different owners. Is that normal in other states? I always thought that the state and number was enough for uniqueness. Obviously not in NH.
On the plus side... (Score:2)
Incidentally, this would be how criminals would stay off the radar.
the easy answer to this one is: (Score:2)
If people started walking, using bicycles, rollerblades or any other form of transportation besides cars, then there would be a massive problem for the marketing people: their data wouldn't hold up, and stalkers would find other ways anyway. Stalkers are not the problem, m
where is the open source alternative? (Score:2)
So where is the open source software that does the license plate tracking with commodity hardware? Surely we can beat $25,000 and put this in the hands of nerds everywhere, right?
When the DC sniper was running around killing 10 people in 2002, it crossed my mind that tech like this could have help
Re:where is the open source alternative? (Score:2)
Re:where is the open source alternative? (Score:2)
map of the shootings [wikimedia.org] if you are curious.
Of course there might have been false positives, but keep in mind police were looking for "a white van" instead of the blue Chevrolet Caprice that was used in the shootings. (Fun exercise: next time you are in a major metro, count the number of white vans.) I bet a list of cars in vicinity of 2 shootings would be in single digits. Just check 'em all out.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it (Score:2)
Could I "frame" the mayor with going to a strip club if I wear a t-shirt with his license plate number?
Tracking for Profit - Paparazzi Style (Score:3, Interesting)
Essentially you'd end up with "bounty hunters" cruising bad parts of town looking for stolen vehicles and the like. On the other end, you'd have people driving around L.A. and New York, trying to figure out which celebrity is staying and whose home for the night.
Think of it as Little Brother.
IR Reflector (Score:2, Interesting)
not woried (Score:2)
Re:not woried (Score:2)
When an item of interest is deiscovered on the road, it could then go to a centralized database (either real time, or wait till end of shift to download depending o
Already Here? (Score:2, Interesting)
make the info available to everyone (Score:2)
Maybe even include an option to opt-out of (or opt-in to) tracking. If you opt out of being tracked, you can't track anyone else. If you want to track someone else
David Brin (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:David Brin (Score:2)
Get rid of your car! Get a bicycle or rollerblades (Score:2)
The few times I need a car I rent one. Sure, the credit card company knows that I rented a car. The car rental company probably has GPS for all I know, but I am most likely going to a state park for camping for with I have made a reservation on a government computer besi
driver notes (Score:2)
Then, you can write up a polite note about how they should consider improving their driving skills.
Easy defeat? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Easy defeat? (Score:4, Informative)
there's another one that makes it all reflective, so a camera flash will be blinded out.
Re:Easy defeat? (Score:3)
Time to abolish license plates (Score:2)
It is that bad. (Score:2)
Think about it from an investigation standpoint. If you take your car out for a drive along some highway and some "incident" happens in the same area. If the police then go back and troll for
Re:Not that bad. (Score:2)
Scary part of this, if you read TFA, is that it isn't cops the article is talking about. At least the cops have some sort of oversight and repercussions if they violate the public trust. The article is talking about this tech becoming cheap and easy enough for businesses and the general public to get their hands on.
Re:Not that bad. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not that bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not that bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree, it isn't, but now the Police can make mistakes at a much higher rate. As they say in IT, it has a "scaling problem". Now, put it in the hands of private citizens and corporations too, and there will be a lot of complications since their databases probably won't be any less error prone.
Re:Not that bad. (Score:2)
They are not searching your vehicle, they are just scanning the plates. If you are not wanted (Or atleast your car
Re:Will photo blocker help? (Score:2)