Latest Vista Build Making Real Progress 263
feminazi writes "Computerworld's Scot Finnie has reviewed the newest Vista build and found some significant improvements over Beta 2, which he had previously criticized in pretty strong terms. There's improved performance, greatly reduced installation time, four network control panels and some wizards have all been combined into one nicely organized Network and Sharing Center. Microsoft is also reducing the number of annoying User Access Control (UAC) prompts. There are some minor improvements in the way Media Center handles windows, but it's still buggy."
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Seriously, New Beta is more stable then Old Beta. A company takes the advice from beta testers and fixes issues the everyone complaines about.
Congratulations M$, you have amazed us all again!
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Offtopic)
The sun is HOT!
Gee, thanks for reminding me... [wetter.com]
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/climate/ [noaa.gov]
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
ABUSE OF MODERATION (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this a troll? WinME was a horrible crashfest that was actually less reliable than Windows 98, and ran less software. It's pretty hilarious to me that they eliminated the 16 bit system in an effort to make it more reliable, and failed completely, only accomplishing a dramatic reduction of backwards compatibility.
If you were going to give the parent comment a negative mod, it would be flamebait. The difference between a troll and flamebait is that you believe your flamebait, but trolling by definition means you are expressing a view that you yourself do not believe in order to elicit a desired response. However, I consider it to be a salient point given Microsoft's track record. WinME isn't the only example, either, I can remember a service pack for NT4 and another one for Win2k that both screwed things ALL up.
Re:ABUSE OF MODERATION (Score:2)
Re:ABUSE OF MODERATION (Score:3, Interesting)
More or less, but I'd say that your personal beliefs are irrelevant to the difference between a troll and flamebait. What is important is intent.
Every few months, somebody posts to debian-legal asking whether the GPL violates the Debian Free Software Guidelines. This has been discussed before, and the concensus is that it does not, for various reasons. If the Debian mailing li
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Insightful)
Jeeze - MS releases their new OS to lots of beta testers and takes their advice and bugs and fixes them - and you are a sarcastic asshole. It's not news that the new beta is better than the old... but do you have to hate on MS just to try to fit in here?
I'm surprised you didn't compare how easy networking is in L
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Informative)
The command to create a new folder actually MOVES around the Explorer menu! And this is a GUI! Graphical User Interfaces are intuitive because you can remember the location of things. But not if the bastards move them about, like when the supe
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
1: No, they're not. GUIs are intuitive because the human brain was hard-wired to operate in a universe where there are blocks and shapes and stuff. DOS 5 had a GUI of sorts, that was every bit as intuitive as Windows or Mac could ever be.
2: Folders and files, which move, aren't the sort of things they were talking about. Windows has at least three ways to make a command or folder always in the same location -- which is
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, GUIs aren't intuitive regardless. Sit the average person without any computer experience (an oxymoron today, but anyway) down in front of a computer with or without a GUI and they will be more or less equally confused. The only computers that are even close to intuitive are the turnkey devices like iPods, or the Mailstation e-mail appliance.
However, one thing we do know (from researching the subject) is that if things move around the GUI they become harder to find, whether we're talking text labels, images, or both, because you can no longer use "muscle memory" to locate them. Muscle memory is a very real phenomenon and is the primary reason why repetitive training of any kind is helpful. The brain likes to follow existing patterns that it already follows, which is also why habits are, well, habit-forming.
I'm sorry, I don't understand this sentence. Three ways to make a command or folder always in the same location? Are you trying to say that there are three ways to make a command or folder that are always in their customary locations? It's not quite what you said and I only want to clarify, I am not trying to be a smartass (for once.)
Anyway I haven't had many problems with the muscle training issue on Windows. Where I do see the issue is on the Mac. They went from the very nice, simple, functional Dock on NeXTStep to the stupid, eye-candy, glitz-only Dock on OSX. The primary difference? The new one looks slick, and the old one's elements are always in the same damned place.
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Really? I challenge you to find someone who has never used an iPod before who can work out how turn the damn thing OFF in less than a minute of pointless poking and pushing. "Oh, I know! You push the play/pause button, and hold it down for a few seconds! It's so intuitive!"
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the other functions? Most of them are only "intuitive" because they're how most walkmans/discmans/audio systems have worked for the last 20+ years (ie holding the 'next' button to fast forward) - I'd still argue that they're fairly learned behaviours, they just f
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Actually, GUIs aren't intuitive regardless.
They're certainly more intuitive than CLIs.
Sit the average person without any computer experience (an oxymoron today, but anyway) down in front of a computer with or without a GUI and they will be more or less equally confused.
Certainly. However, they're far more likely to discover the relationship between the physical mouse and the on-screen mouse pointer and that clicking the mouse buttons can achieve [useful] things, than they are (after discovering what t
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
No, they're intuitive because instead of expecting the user to know exactly what they want to do and how to do it, they give the user a range of options to choose from.
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
While this is probably a fair comment for other reasons, I disagree that consistent location of conceptual UI elements has much, if any, influence on how intuitive an interface is.
Ease of use, yes. Intuitiveness ? Not IMHO.
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Insightful)
And an important one :).
"Intuitiveness" is a measure of the "discoverability" of new, similar functionality based on knowledge you already have (eg: discovering how to drag and drop selected text, once you already know how to drag and drop icons). A more verbal description would be "ease of learning".
"Ease of use" is a measure of efficiency - once you know how to use it, how well does it work. This is a mixture of finer measurements like intu
Re:In other news... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
It booted in seconds rather than minut
Re:In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Man, some days, the jokes just write themselves. 8^)
For those who haven't had their coffee yet: the statements 'stable', 'reliable' and 'runs for days without problems' are not exactly synonymous.
Re:In other news... (Score:2)
Seriously, New Beta is more stable then Old Beta. A company takes the advice from beta testers and fixes issues the everyone complaines about.
Congratulations M$, you have amazed us all again!
Actually it is a bit Hot... Not only Microsoft, but I have been involved with a lot of betas where builds would go down hill several times during the development cycle...
And there is also the stunning WindowsME example, it never got better.
Re:In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
PRINT View (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?co
Improvements vs. limitations (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Improvements vs. limitations (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Improvements vs. limitations (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, it's far more of a problem for casual, non-technical pirates than the handful of legitimate customers who have been misidentified.
I personally know of at least half a dozen people who have subsequently either a) purchased a legitimate copy of Windows, b) downgraded back to their older, legitimate version or c) bought a Mac, because they lack the technical knowledge to keep up with the WGA arms race.
WGA is certainly going to reduce the level of Windows piracy. Unfortunately for Microsoft, it's going to do so because some people will move away from Windows altogether.
Now if you have a legitimate activation required license of Windows, that is when you have to deal with WGA spying on your every keypress and sending the data off to Redmond with your credit card number.
Yay for ignorant hyperbole ! Also, don't forget to mention that WGA kills puppies...
Simple fact is that WGA is utterly transparent and utterly irrelevant to most legitimate users, and even those it isn't, it isn't an issue for very long.
Re:Improvements vs. limitations (Score:5, Insightful)
Download Beta 2 (you can get it for free), install it, use it for 20 minutes, and you'll see just how stupid a lot of the FUD is. Vista is very, very much like XP in terms of DRM, restrictions, and the like. TPM support is minimal (only used for BitLocker), you can still install unsigned drivers, uTorrent and Azureus still run fine, K-Lite Mega Codec Pack still installs fine and XVID movies still work.
I guess the most annoying thing about posts like yours is that they are so nondescript. Which DRM features are you referring to? What limitations are you referring to? I see an OS that is no more restricted than XP. The new DRM features don't mean a thing to me because I don't buy WMV-DRM movies.
Vista is making real progress and is shaping up to be a substantial, albeit not revolutionary, upgrade from XP. Slashdot doesn't like that.
Highlights (Score:5, Funny)
"... when powering up the hardware required by Vista, we had a brownout affecting neighboring homes -- a massive improvement over the four-city-block blackout resulting from the prior build. This is likely because I was able to pull several pre-release Xeon 5100 boards out of the render farm for Aero
"
"While it was annoying to have to confirm my Firefox download 18 times, Microsoft graciously refrained from sending another squad of Khazak mercenaries to 'verify safe uninstall of hacker tools.'"
"Vist has not yet drowned the remaining kitten."
3rd'ed (Score:2)
Beta Coverage (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously why does a friggin beta need so much coverage here.
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmm, lets think about this Einstein. Maybe because the Windows franchise is the most widely used consumer desktop OS on the planet?
Quit being such a fuck-tart, you don't have to click and read the story if you don't like it. Filter the MS related news if you don't want to read it. Based on the number of responses this story gets, I imagine that a number of people are genuinely interested in what progress is being made on a OS that will be shoved down all our throats over the next 5-10 years.
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:5, Funny)
Nah...they just need to give it its own icon. A panoramic view of a landfill seems appropriate....
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
Would you care to look back to see how many open source projects still in alpha get coverage here?
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
Re:Beta Coverage (Score:2)
wrappers (Score:3, Funny)
Re:wrappers (Score:2, Funny)
Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:5, Insightful)
That's an odd criticism of UAC. With XP, if you run as a limited-access user, it simply prevents you from deleting the All Users shortcuts at all. Of course Vista's UAC would require a password for that. You don't have permission to modify that folder.
Apparently the criticism must be coming from people who never ran XP securely. That said, it's probably more convenient now. No right-clicking Windows Explorer and having to hit Run As like you do in XP to delete All Users shortcuts.
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Yes, you would think that somebody would realise that the problem is that it's impossible to differentiate between things on your personal desktop, and things on every desktop. They need some sort of visual flair on items that apply to all users. Likewise, i
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:4, Interesting)
That was my thought exactly. Beta testers revealed that the OS behavior was stupid, and sure enough, Microsoft changed the behavior-- to a different stupid behavior.
Seriously, there's just something a little wrong with the way Microsoft handles the "All users" profile. It's a pretty good idea-- to have a place where if you change the settings, it changes for all users. However, it's more complicated of a situation than Microsoft's handling of it implies.
There are your criticisms, and others besides, of Microsofts methods, but I think their solution should entail at least 3 features:
Creating the administrator interface for this behavior might be a bit complicated, but that's how it should work.
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
If they lean towards security, vast numbers of gibbering idiots in the community will lambast them for poor usability.
If they lean towards usability, vast numbers of gibbering idiots in the community will lambast them for poor security.
Because Microsoft is so big, the publicity they get in either case is tremendous and negative. Still... the only thing worse than being talked about...
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Well, as things stand in XP, the first and second of these can be handled by adjusting the invisible "Default user" profile -- yes, there's yet another profile just to make things ultra-complicated -- but the third c
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
It's inconvenient, but you can find out where the shortcut is located in its general properties (right click).
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
True, but they should. It's incredibly amusing and gratifying having spyware/rootkits ask you for permission to install themselves.
It works with CD/DVD autoplay too. You can just hit cancel when the CD asks you for your password to install their crap. Sorry Sony. Try again.
Re:Deleting Shortcuts with UAC (Score:2)
Speaking as someone who has been running NT as a regular user for about ten years now, the number of things that don't work with Run As is greatly exaggerated. Heck, I can't even remember the last time I actually needed to log in to any of my Windows machines as an Administrator to do something I couldn't as a regular user via Run As.
20% chance of slipping again... (Score:5, Interesting)
I love it when they are already talking about the new release slipping when they have already made promises through their teeth for the last 3 years.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:20% chance of slipping again... (Score:2)
It's amazing that as Linux desktops, Linux server, Open Office, Firefox and Mac desktops continue to gain on them that their stats continue to rise. Too many cooks spoil the books.
Re:20% chance of slipping again... (Score:2)
Re:20% chance of slipping again... (Score:2)
Ah yes, the real world - where Engineering and Marketing collide.
Your friends are probably correct in that it shouldn't be released in January, but Marketing knows they can't keep making excuses for why it slipped again without the analysts/custo
Reactions From Linux/OS X Fans (Score:2, Insightful)
It's like there is an underlying bitterness that Vista is coming together that is attempted to be covered up with sarcasm directed at Microsoft.
I guess it is dawning on people who hoped that Vista would crash and burn and Microsoft customers would come fleeing to their favorite niche OS that that simply won't be happening.
Regardless, golf clap for Microsoft for taking so fucking long just to get a system
This seems crazy, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I just don't buy the whole Microsoft is hurting Linux/Apple/BSD etc. because all of those systems are growing and getting better all the time. Linux is getting better and better, OS X is super cool, and so on.
Sure, I think some people would hope that a awful Vista will sink MS. Well, it won't. because if ME didn't, I can't see Vista doing it. So, maybe it's best to hope for a good OS from MS, more secure, less bugs, less @#$@#$@#%%^ spyware/adware infections for us to all fix, etc. etc, and then just focus on using what we like.
Re:This seems crazy, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Then when in Jan. after the first beta was released and the WMF flaw was found not only in XP but Vista as well, and MSFt's excuse was that they hadn't yet checked that dll I knew MSFt was going down hill. Win32 code is still present and merely thrown on top. no separate layer just direct cross calling. no sand boxing old apps properly just an ugly hack to keep everything working. Then with Beta 2 MSFT has to "fine Tune" UAC means that the system doesn't work right. That security will be to complicated for the average users and weak admins which make up 75% of MSFT's install base. MSFT never learned the KISS principal creates a stronger security layer, and then you add on more complicated layers for fine grained control ala selinux, and the other systems designed for hardening a computer, but aren't needed by say my mother.
UAC can be tightened up well, and MSFT and real admins will do so for Servers and other important machines. But the home user will only get frustrated at it's complexity and find ways to disable it like they have already begun to do in the betas.
While I had High hopes for Vista, the above combined with the outrageous hardware requirements to deliver the same features found in OS X running on literally a 1/3 of the hardware has found my hope for vista gone. i have converted my brother to OS X If I can get my mother then all will be good. My brother could switch to linux if he desired, and my mother isn't a tech person.
Re:This seems crazy, but... (Score:2)
Microsoft never talked about a ground-up rewrite of Windows for Longhorn/Vista -- ever. Their intention all along has been to build on the existing NT 5.x kernel and core architecture. You're welcome to provide links to prove me wrong on that, but it's pretty unlikely you'll find anything more than speculation.
Internet Explorer has never been part of the NT kernel -- ever. Where'd you get that idea from, Slashdot? IE's rendering engine (MSHTML
Yet another Windows API (Score:2)
What is this Windows Presentation Foundation? Do I want to learn it or should I go off and do Java and be done with Windows dependency? What is this Windows Presentation Foundation offering for the developer in terms of features to make it worth the while? WindowsForms actually offered fewer features apart from the more streamlined object-oriented framework.
Re:This seems crazy, but... (Score:2)
Re:This seems crazy, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
If vista is bad then MS will make a little less money. Maybe that will decrease their influence a little. If that happens then it's good for eve
Re:This seems crazy, but... (Score:2)
It matters not to me personally what Vista is like, I have one windows machine because I need to compile stuff on it from time to time, otherwise it's Linux all the way.
If Counterstrike source were available for Linux, my son w
Intentions and Reality. (Score:2)
I just don't buy the whole Microsoft is hurting Linux/Apple/BSD etc. because all of those systems are growing and getting better all the time. Linux is getting better and better, OS X is super cool, and so on.
Microsoft's inability to disrupt free software is not from a lack of trying. See the Halloween Documents [catb.org] for graphic proof of their honesty, attitude and intentions. The attack includes all dependencies and weaknesses perceived eight years ago, discussion groups and standards of all sorts. If any
First User Full Privileges No Password? (Score:2)
Tom's Harware:
"But Microsoft hasn't taken this principle entirely to heart, either. The first user defined during installation is automatically granted administrative privileges. Worse yet, the reserved account named Administrator is not required to have a password to log into the machine!"
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/31/windows_vis ta/page18.html [tomshardware.com] [tomshardware.com]
Did they fix this?
If someone nitpicks about how Linux's sudo is somehow equivilant, it's not. Stop spreading t
Re:First User Full Privileges No Password? (Score:2)
AFAIK the reserved "Administrator" account is disabled until a password is specified. The user created during installation is still an administrator by default, but the theory is that UAC will prevent them from doing
Re:First User Full Privileges No Password? (Score:2)
It's worth noting that not even "Administrator" runs like root, you will *always* recieve UAC prompts if you try do something like delete sys
Improved install times, needs to be improved more (Score:2)
the install time was around 50 minutes. That is a lot longer than what it takes
to install equvalent functionality on e.g. Linux, it is far more than
what it takes to install MacOS-X.
In 50 minutes you can install Linux, including office suites, database software
e-mail software, windows file servers, image editors, software development tools,...
With Vista you just get a plain OS.
Microsoft is lucky that they most of their software preinstal
Re:Improved install times, needs to be improved mo (Score:2)
I think you're missing the point; while MS can't bundle everything in one install, it takes as long to install the OS as it does to install competitors entire desktop environment. It's not about what's included in the installation, it's about the time of the installation.
Installing Vista + the new MS Office, a database server, and other such things as are bundled in Linu
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why the big deal over Vista? (Score:2)
That's because a new revision (e.g. 2.6.16 to 2.6.17) is put out every few months, and minor patches (2.6.17.2 to 2.6.17.3) more frequently than that.
Even if you count SP2 as a new version (this is pretty reasonable; the changes there were more substantial than a Linux revision) it's been quite some time since Windows has been updated (close to 2 years). If you don't count SP2, it's been close to 5 years.
Window
Re:Why the big deal over Vista? (Score:2)
And yet, you'll find that slashdot reports on them, too. In fact, as annoying as Vista Beta stories are now, Linux kernel release stories were just as bad a year or so ago when there was seemingly a teeny release every week or so, and slashdot reported every single one of them.
Re: (Score:2)
Article bloat (Score:2)
TFA is a serious bloat of splashy eyewhore for the amount of content-per-page.
Tiring (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Slipping release dates affecting reputation? (Score:2)
Just like Duke Nuke'm?
If Vista had come out when promised, it would have been ground-breaking and innovative. If it had come out only two years late, it would have caught up. But now Windows is so far behind other modern operating systems that Vista will still be underpowered. If it weren't for vendor lock-i
Computerworld needs an editor (Score:2, Offtopic)
FTFA:
Won't someone think of the poor innocent oranges?
Re:Computerworld needs an editor (Score:2)
the mods round here seem to have gone insane.
I'm running the latest beta (Score:2)
The interface is pretty slick and I keep stumbling over new things I hadn't spotted before, something that happened to me when I started using OSX which is a good thing. I could start using it straight away but the deepe
Re:Deliberately setting the bar low? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Will it come packaged with.. (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, and the TV ads will be done by the Prophet Zarquon.
Re:Pagination... (Score:2, Insightful)
Serve the interests of your users, or DIAF. I don't really care which.
Sincerely,
The User
Re:hmmmm (Score:2)
I think Vista is still easier to kill -- even if billg is the Borg!
Unrealistic expectations (Score:5, Funny)
2K?!? For a modern operating system? The average Atari 2600 game is larger than that!
Re:Footprint Mistake (Score:2)
Per the insightful post above, it's going to be business as usual as soon as this thing is shipping. It will keep me gainfully employed because there is no incentive to make it secure. There never was. There's a huge windows security industry that proves me right.
Meanwhile my family and I have great peace of mind running (insert
512 (Score:2)
Re:Generic Graphical Network Overview (Score:2)
Re:UAC (Score:3, Funny)