Office Tools On The Web 153
ReadWriteWeb writes "What will be the primary elements of an Office Suite for the Web be? Who among the big or small companies is currently providing the best examples? ZDNet's Richard MacManus reviews the contenders for collaborative Web Office tools. Some of these products may well be acquisition targets this year for Microsoft and Google, as it is anticipated that both companies will release fully functional Web Office Suites sometime in the next few years."
Am I behind? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd say more like (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyone else remember WordPerfect for Java?
* No, AJAX is *NOT* good enough. It's fine for email. It's not good enough for anything else.
Re:I'd say more like (Score:3, Informative)
AJAX/DHTML is good enough. It's the programmers that aren't. Most of these "Web Office" products are really nothing more than beautified HTML Editor components disguised as something we haven't seen before. The types of features that make a Word Processor a real Word Processor are missing because no one else has done the work for them. Not to mention the lack of spreadsheets, presentation software, and database inte
Re:I'd say more like (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux, Mac OS X, and even recent Windows releases are actually quite stable if you use good drivers. Why tie an important a
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
1. Because tying your applications to the network affords a great number of features that can't exist (or exist poorly) in disparate systems. Such features include: centralized storage, powerful document search engines, automatic document sharing, application availability from any location, and protection against massive data loss through the fail
Web-based office apps: WORST IDEA EVER (Score:2)
Re:Web-based office apps: WORST IDEA EVER (Score:2)
However, if someone wants to try to address them, I'll be perfectly happy to put a finer point on any particular compromise. Would you like to be first?
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
I'll take HTA for $500, Alex.
# Open two Firefox windows: one with your really important document and one with a page that crashes Firefox. Poof: no more important document editing for you.
I just tried it with GMail. My document was still under the drafts label when I reopened the application. Who'd have thunk that designers could account for crashes, eh?
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Here's a hint for you: Every action performed by the user can be recorded as an atomic event. If those atomic events are saved, packaged up, and sent to the server at regular intervals, the server side copy could be kept up to date with a minimal amount of bandwidth.
Now, consider for a moment: How does MS Office save it's files so much faster than Op
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
You, sir, have failed it. Given that OOo does a COMPLETE save to disk every time it saves a file, JavaScriptOffice (assuming it sent updates in a fashion similar to what I described) would be WAY faster than OOo.
Once again, no network-based version of Office will ever take off so long as you need to maintain an Internet connection at all times. Why should I be sitting on a pla
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
--- Original Message ---
Re:I'd say more like
(Score:1)
by AKAImBatman (238306) on 08:01 AM February 22nd, 2006 (#14775719)
(http://akaimbatman.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com])
How does OpenOffice save its files so much faster than JavaScriptOffice? It uses fantastic technology known as the local hard drive.
You, sir, have failed it. Given that OOo does a COMPLETE save to disk every time it saves a file, JavaScriptOffice (assuming it sent updates in a fashion similar to what I described) would be WAY faster
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
An HTA application can continue to allow someone to work (caching the necessary files on disk, and saving updates to disk) until the next time a network connection is made. Then it can shunt
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
I find it completely insane that in your criticism of Firefox's so-called memory leak you actually link to the page that explains why it's not a memory leak. Set browser.sessionhistory.max_total_viewers to something other than -1 and less than 8 and the number of pages cached will decrease - if you have a gig of memory. With 512MB, you have to set it to less than 5 to make a difference, and so on - which is all explained in your very own link.
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:4, Insightful)
You want systems that were made for complex user interface tasks? Try
If you want a simple text editor that can do minimal tasks, sure, web interfaces are *okay*. But compare that to something like abiword, which is still free (or openoffice, if you want), and they *still* can't compare.
Why even try to do a web office suite? To make it cross platformable? Once again, abiword and openoffice have this covered. Remember, the internet consists of more than just webpages. There's lot of ways of transporting data. If you want something that can run anywhere, a solid crossplatform library should be used. QT and GTK are two good examples of this.
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Wait, I know - let's try some basic page layout tasks like drawing lines and ellipses [walterzorn.com]. My Atari ST could manage that (it could also do full WYSIWYG with TrueType fonts rotated to arbitrary angles, bezier curves and assorted other vector type stuff) - it's a bit harder in DHTML/AJAX without SVG, which is admittedly very promising but still a bit
DHTML/AJAX might have bright
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Why do you think I (and others) have been screaming for SVG? It's the final piece of the puzzle that will allow us to get rid of the last kludge in the stack. (i.e. Server generated images.) With Opera and Mozilla working to make SVG a required part of the browser, the future looks very bright indeed.
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
You see a problem with this? The Gameboy has the necessary processor and graphics hardware. What it's lacking (which AJAX/DHTML *do* have) is the proper input devices. Without proper I/O devices, making an Office Suite would be pointless. It's simply too tedious to interface with the device.
If you had your eyes open, you should now realize that there's no technical reason why a proper Office Suite cannot be done in AJAX/DHTML
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
I really think you need to b
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Such as? Name a single language that is ubiquitous as JavaScript, runs in all W3C compliant web browsers, and can provide the features we've been discussing?
I'll save you the trouble: You can't. JavaScript sucks sometimes, but it's the only language we have available to meet the needs of Web Applications. And make no mistake, AJAX may be a buzzword for XMLHttpRequest, but DHTML is not a buzzword. It is a very real techno
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
*cough* "something less vague"
Apologies for the error. We're already well aware that you can do vague.
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
I do [blogspot.com], but I'd have a hard time classifying them as "stripped down".
Re:I'd say more like (Score:2)
Fast. Efficient. Saves regularly. Beta, but mostly solid and constantly improving.
That's OK (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Am I behind? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Am I behind? (Score:1)
Maybe I'll end up eating my hat on that last statement, but there you have it.
Re:Am I behind? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Am I behind? (Score:3, Funny)
It looks like you are trying to contend with MS Office. Would you like some notoriety?
Re:Am I behind? (Score:2)
Just one word: wikicalc
Re:Am I behind? (Score:1)
Re:Am I behind? (Score:2)
(Not that mine is that low either, just pointing that out)
This is obvious (Score:3, Funny)
Googles product will be minimalist, open, and in beta for years.
Re:This is obvious (Score:2)
Oh Please! (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft has a VERY large and very well-developed office suite that connects quite elegantly to a bunch of Microsoft's back office software.
So these start-ups are going to usurp that somehow?
Also, some people love to lease cars, but when it comes to software, I don't see it happening so much.
What they may do is fill some very small gap.
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
Depends on what Microsoft's strategy is at the time. We are talking "a few years down the road" right? Perhaps MSFT goes for all online with a subscription based model (not all that different from their licenses now -- just more profitable for them because it removes some of the Warezing capabilities) and people get pissed off and want something else (either physical or free).
I don't believe that there are any viable alternatives, for the business world, other
Re:Oh Please! (Score:4, Funny)
Web 2.0 business plan
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact that your data resides on a foreign server cannot be easily overcome with hacking and patching. It simply declares a field day for the SEC and the FBI, even with encryption.
Why on earth should I "Pull a Tom Horn" and braid my own noose? Yes, online apps could prove a convenience, but Federal Pound me in the Ass Pr
Re:Oh Please! (Score:1)
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
not to mention the ungodly number of third-party apps that are designed to work with Office and share a common look and feel.
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
Microsoft has a VERY large and very well-developed office suite that connects quite elegantly to a bunch of Microsoft's back office software.
What [these office suites] may do is fill some very small gap.
You are assuming an enterprise-level point of view. That is only roughly half of business sales for Microsoft. A big segment, sure, but what of the other half, the small businesses, who don't have any back office kit to connect with? They don't fret over Exchange connectivity, bec
Re:Oh Please! (Score:2)
Let's check the facts:
Microsoft has a VERY large and very well-developed office suite that connects quite elegantly to a bunch of Microsoft's back office software.
So these start-ups are going to usurp that somehow?
Also, some people love to lease cars, but when it comes to software, I don't see it happening so much.
What they may do is fill some very small gap.
Microsoft has shown us in the past that they feel they are such a monolithic application vendor that all they need to do to retain customer
Dark Fiber... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Avalon Business Systems (Score:4, Informative)
It's a web-based (AJAX?) management tool that my company uses to handle our scheduling, inventory, invoicing, CRM, etc. It's really slick, but useful (it reminds me a lot of GMail).
Really, web services like Avalon, GMail, and Flickr are coming along nicely. It's a lot nicer to be able to access your data and tools from anywhere than it would be to have to install software on a dozen computers.
Re:Avalon Business Systems (Score:2)
I'm sure it's great, but what does it offer that I can't get with a laptop?
Re:Avalon Business Systems (Score:2)
Really, the greatest thing we get out of it collaboration. There are a few solutions out there to bridge the virtual divide, but doing it with online software sure makes it easier.
Another aspect is that it runs even when your computer isn't. We have automated tasks (like reminder e-mails) go out at certain times of the day and it's nice not to have to maintain servers or backups ourselves.Mp> Oh, one of the other nice things is that our clients and vendors
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
* OpenOffice.org, a hugely-bloated fork of an old closed-source imitation of Microsoft Office, doesn't count.
** Assuming that your "valid" XHTML and scriptaculous JavaScript works equally well on all web browsers, which it won't, forcing you to make various forks of scripts.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
You do realize where you're posting this, right??
Re:Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
Where did you get the 70 MB figure from -- the installer? Once you actually unpack and install OpenOffice.org, it rivals Microsoft Office for raw bloat. Its Excel clone is absolutely awful, barely playing catch-up to Excel's worksheet storage limits (whic [msdn.com]
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Only thing I can think of is the downright awful Salesforce integration that allows you to click on a link to see the web interface and slow down Outlook.
Other things are poor stability, poor performance, 2GB pst storage limit, painfully slow startup with more than several thousand emails, decay from normal use requiring periodic installation, etc.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Outlook also connects to an Exchange server to do file and calendar sharing more readily than Evolution does. Evolution's Exchange connector, when last I checked, uses an interface which mimics a web browser clicking through Outlook Web Access. Outlook uses the proprietary Exchange protocol and
Re:Why? (Score:2)
It's easy to roll out upgrades, people don't have to worry as much about backups (the tape drive will take care of that), you don't have to maintain hundreds of separately installed office suites, etc...
I could see this being somewhat attractive to an administrator, but as a user it seems like a real pain in the ass.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
That's all very well until they roll out an upgrade, without notice or without your having any control over it, that breaks your business's criticial documents.
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Sorry, but that just doesn't have the ring of truth to it. There is a reason that every major corporate IT group in the world field tests upgrades, uses things like SUS, etc. We used to have some systems at work set to pull from Microsoft Update automatically. One day, a patch for a known vulnerability took down the entire office network when it "fixed" Samba so that none of our Windows machines could talk to any of our *nix servers. The following day, no machines in the office were set to pull updates auto
Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)
As far as I can tell, the only reason everyone here is so excited about it is that they're convinced that Google, with its Super Google Power, will be first to market.
If Microsoft (which, believe it or not, still has a few developers left, plus an existing code base to work from) steps up with first with a closed-source, subscription-based office suite with remotely stored files -- we'll see how enthusiastic the AJAX groupies are then.
Options are benefits (Score:3, Insightful)
Another good feature is that things could be automatically stored online. Currently, I don't download any of my email to a local PC. I leave it where I am assured either ssh or web access. This is quite benefitial because I use about three computers in the average week, and sometimes I will want to access my email elsewhere.
Consider my personal situation:
I don't o
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Advantages to the consumer:
Hey firefox guys! (Score:2)
Re:Hey firefox guys! (Score:2)
why? (Score:2, Interesting)
What?? No edlin? (Score:2)
Who needs an "office tool" when they have edlin. vi and emacs users don't know what they're missing.
Re:What?? No edlin? (Score:1)
Re:What?? No edlin? (Score:2)
I had to use edlin just once. I think I used ed about twice. If I'm lucky, I'll never have to touch either ever again.
I think this joke has passed its expiration date. DOS users mostly no longer exist and even if they do they probably won't know what edline is. Unix users mostly won't give a shit and if they even know it exists, they probably know it's an ed-knockoff.
Here's my guess (Score:4, Insightful)
Failure, I suspect.
What advantage does any web-based office application have to justify the incredible risks of allowing your data out-of-house and being dependent on a working Internet connection to be able to do anything?
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
I agree with your criticism of the idea, but from what I've seen in the past couple of decades, the fact that it is an abysmally stupid idea with no pros and many cons makes me think it will catch on like wildfire.
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
The security model would be fundamentally flawed in several ways, so I'm afraid you're almost certainly right. :-/
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
Using these technologies as services outside the company network is a serious security risk. But they don't need to be outside the company.
Imagine this "online" Office suite as something you can deploy inside your company network, this can really help to increase productivity. Sharing documents will be a breeze, immagine be able to interconnect complex documents using a Wikki-like structure! Be able to collaborativelly edit them, and keep several versions and revisions. And do this with nothing more
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
But that is a manageable risk. Trusting a random third party with your criticial, confidential information is not a manageable risk; if they lose it it, you're screwed, and if they leak it, you're screwed. In fact, data protection legislation would make even using a service like this legally dicey in some places, for precisely this reason.
Re:Here's my guess (Score:2)
IBM (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not really sure who they were/are planning on marketing it to -- developing countries, perhaps? -- and I'm not sure that the recent past has really shown much support for the whole "the network is the computer" concept, but maybe they could sell it to people as a cost savings. Get one reasonably priced server, and a dozen or so diskless thin clients, and you could outfit a whole classroom with computers without buying a single copy of Windows or Microsoft Office. And nobody ever has to worry about moving their work from one computer to another, it's always stored and available.
There are a lot of good things that could be said for such a system. It would take me a while to get over my hesitation to use a web browser for anything BUT web browsing, though.
Here is the article I think I heard about it from:
http://news.com.com/2100-1012_3-5208998.html [com.com]
IBM Workplace (Score:2)
Thanks, AC.
Well, there's my answer: it's called the IBM Workplace, and the client software is the Workplace Managed Client (they don't waste a lot of effort on their names, do they).
When I saw "White Paper Series" my first reaction was "vaporware!" But it does seem to actually exist. In fact there is some sort of demo which you can download here [ibm.com], although proceed at your own risk, I didn't try it. There is some sort of
Business won't bite (Score:3, Interesting)
Imagine the news - "Office Farm Servers Hacked Last Night".
Local security just feels safer, even when it's not.
Re:Business won't bite (Score:2)
Actually, businesses have been biting on this model for a while - almost 40% of corporate email is hosted offsite by a 3rd party, and this trend is growing. MS Exhcnage hosting is one of the fastest growing ASP products out there, and that stuff ALL of your goodies offsite...
What will be the primary elements (Score:3, Funny)
<hand up>I know I know I know...call me!!! </hand up>
how about Word processing, spreadsheet and presentation?
duh
Re:What will be the primary elements (Score:2)
Cant wait (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Cant wait (Score:2)
Honestly... don't bother. (Score:4, Insightful)
Why not cut out the web site bollocks? Honestly, not everything has to be on the web. If I *really* wanted a centralised office suite I'd add a VNC server and connect over ssh.
Re:Honestly... don't bother. (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, many people who use office don't know what VNC or SSH are. But they know how to type in a URL.
hang on a second... (Score:1, Interesting)
I've worked in accounting with medium sized construction companies for a few years now. I've never "officially" had a position in IT, but at the firms I've worked for I've always been the computer guy.
Within an environment with 'less than savy' compu
Airset (Score:2)
pdf to usurp doc and ppt in user land (Score:2, Offtopic)
In terms of Office Tools for the web pdf will become the defacto format. The Open Source community has a chance to finally compete with MS word and ppt, as both file formats will give way to pdf. While the continued development of Open Office is a good thing, in terms of competing with MS on equal ground pdf i
Re:pdf to usurp doc and ppt in user land (Score:2)
My web-based word processor (Score:1)
I recently created a web-based word processor with a bunch of features that I felt were lacking in other offerings.
Description: AJAX-powered web application which serves as a web-based word processor, content/document management system, publishing system, and wiki-like collaboration system
Link: http://ghostnotebook [ghostnotebook]
Constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.
Re:My web-based word processor (Score:2)
Not that far off (Score:2)
why not yet? (Score:2)
Number 1 reason companies push web apps? (Score:2)
Re:Number 1 reason companies push web apps? (Score:2)
Instead of collecting fees from the consumers, you collect it from the advertisers who are mo
Office Suite as a concept is outdated (Score:2)
I hacked something together (Score:2)
As an author, I rely heavily on OpenOffice.org and sometimes Word, but I also like having a light weight web based system for writing notes, etc. that are mostly for myself. BTW, my http://kbdocs.com/ [kbdocs.com] system nicely exports to other formats.