Who Makes Custom Chips? 79
toybuilder asks: "I have an idea for a neat consumer product that could benefit greatly from a really simple bare-die chip to reduce cost and size. I took a VLSI and chip design class back in college about 10 years ago, so I know how to design the circuit I want in CMOS. Now, I'm sure there must be fabs for older-generation designs (maybe in China/Taiwan) that I could have such a chip made -- I've seen bare chips in musical greeting cards and in tiny toy gadgets. How do I go about making my chip design into reality if I only want to make a fairly short run (a few *chips* during development, and maybe a 6" wafer's worth of the final design)?"
You DO? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You DO? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:You DO? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, if the chip you want is a digital logic chip.
If you are doing any sort of signal creation or analysis, or a mixture of analog and digital, ann FPGA won't cut the mustard.
Consider going back to your school, to use their cleanroom (if they have one) and make your own. Maybe there's a program available as a business outreach or research arm that would let you do this as a student project if you include a few seniors.
If your school doesn't have a cleanroom, maybe the VLSI profs would know somebody who can spin a chip for you. There's lots of cleanrooms around, hiding in companies here and there, so you might not even need to go overseas.
Re:You DO? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
Yes, but my suspicion is that they consist of high-performance ADC at one end, a DAC at the other, an FFT, and an IFFT, with some digital logic tying them all together.
Most cutting edge signal processing is done in the digital domain: for instance, using FFTs it's possible to build a 100 kHz high-pass filter that has a stupidly high Q-factor.
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
There is a government program that subsidizes chipmaking for schools, last I heard, it costs $50k (before subsidy) to make a custom chip. I had a prof that showed off his custom chip during the IC design class. Our school
Re:You DO? (Score:2, Informative)
There are Field Programmable Analog Arrays that may provide the analog functionality that you need. Never personally used one though.
Re:You DO? (Score:3, Interesting)
Custom ASICs start at $50k and go up for the die charges. Some companies that make them include IBM, Toshiba, and Oki.
However, you can get results that can be just as good with an FPGA. Consider the Cyclone II or Stratix II lines from Altera, or the Spartan III from Xilinx (be careful of power rail sequencing issues with Xilinx parts!). These will work into the hundreds of megahertz, and will cost you from $6 to $50 each, depending on size, performance, and features.
If your desig
Re:You DO? (Score:1)
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
Also seen it in the high speed Altera parts.
-nB
Re:You DO? (Score:1)
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
My group tends toward Altera, which (for the lines I've used) have no rail sequencing issues at all. And Altera has come leaps and bounds in the past few years with the Cyclone line.
Re:You DO? (Score:2)
FPGA (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:FPGA (Score:5, Insightful)
The only drawback to FPGAs is component cost, it will always be higher than a custom IC. On the other hand you can get them from anywhere from $1, to $500, depending on how big of an FPGA you need. The real advantage is that you can develop your idea, mostly for free, prototype it and then convert to a custom IC later when you get funding. It's a great way to go that many very well funded companies start with.
Building a custom IC has a very high NRE. It requires lots of expensive tools (Simulation, Synthesis, Verification, Floorplanning) and you almost certainly won't get it right on your first rev. Respins aren't free. If you want to do a fully analog design, it's even harder and I suggest you try to sell your idea to companies that specialize in this.
If you can develop and prove your idea in an FPGA, and put together a believable business case, you can probably get the funding you need. Otherwise, especially right now, it'd be very hard.
Re:FPGA (Score:2)
The main reasons to use hybrids are size, power and noise characteristics, not price, though, as they are AFAIU generally more expensive than a circuit board solution.
Uh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, depending on the simplicity, are you sure you can't get away with a pic microcontroller? That's what the OTPs are for, after all.
Economies of scale (Score:1)
If you want to go cheap, several companies make low-cost microcontrollers. A quick hop over to http://www.ti.com/msp430 [ti.com] shows that you can get a 16MH
Re:Economies of scale (Score:2)
Re:Economies of scale (Score:2)
I can't disclose hard numbers, but 90nM masks are very uncheap. If you want say 25 micron parts (250nM about 5 year old tech) then the masks should be under 500K for a set (10-16 layers) and to be honest I don't know if anyone will even build larger geometry masks any more. All the FABs want to get away from the smaller wafers and larger geometries because they are inherently more expensive per die.
Is your idea all digital? If so the answer is already posted: FPGA. If not
Try a PIC (Score:1)
You don't. (Score:3, Insightful)
university (Score:2, Informative)
Re:university (Score:2)
You could literally fart in there and no one would be the wiser. Then again, this is most engineers good friend
Re:university (Score:2)
Around here (UC Berkeley microlab) it's not too uncommon for someone who has recently graduated to start their own company and pay to use the facility. It will still be expensive, but it could be less expensive than trying to get a pro fab house to do the work. You'll probably have to dish out either a decent paycheck or some intellectual buy-in on the project in order to convince a com
Lost cause I am.. (Score:1)
I've seen it mentioned before in this thread, ask and include students, you never know what will happen until you do.
Re:Who makes custom chips? (Score:1)
Yes, but we..... (Score:2)
IBM (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www-03.ibm.com/chips/asics/ [ibm.com]
Easy Answer (Score:1)
As some others are saying (Score:3)
Re:As some others are saying (Score:2)
Not so much, now that both Xilinx and Altera FPGAs are available with very competitive free software licenses. Complete evaluation bundles for the Xilinx S3 are in the $100-$150 range...
Use Verilog or VHDL (Score:4, Interesting)
Get thee to MOSIS! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Get thee to MOSIS! (Score:4, Informative)
If you need real silicon rather than an FPGA you could talk to MOSIS (as above), or you could look at TSMC's shuttle [tsmc.com] service. (MOSIS are probably your best bet though, but it never hurts to look at a few other possibilities).
Duh, PIC's and FPGA's? (Score:3)
Real VLSI (Score:2)
I did such a search a while ago when I had an idea incorporating an ARM core and some other stuff. There are VLSI-named mailing lists or groups where I found the names of such companies who do provide this service. For low volume theyre really expensive mind you.
I forgot where I saw that but the prices put me off. Do your own googling before posting to slashdot.
Try using MOSIS (Score:5, Informative)
However, you should remember from the VLSI class you've taken that it may take several runs before getting anything usable. Unless your design has some aspect that makes using a FPGA infeasible, you'd probably be better off with the FPGA. As I recall, a couple of FPGA vendors can also do conversions from FPGAs to hard-wired ASICs if you desire it later.
Try a micro if possible (Score:3, Interesting)
The newest microcontrollers are incredibly capable devices, and have great peripherals. Even if you have to make a design compromise or two, or use some extra (non-custom) chips, software on a standard micro might be the cheapest option.
OTP Microcontroller (Score:2)
Re:OTP Microcontroller (Score:2)
What exactly motivates people to post to Slashdot saying, "I have no imagination whatsoever!"?
Is it something you're all proud of? Do you want a pat on the back?
Re:OTP Microcontroller (Score:2)
It's a figure of speech, man. Get a grip. I'm not claiming no imagination, I'm saying the article dude is trying to use the wrong tool for the job.
Re:OTP Microcontroller (Score:1)
Re:OTP Microcontroller (Score:2)
That's totally beside the point. What I'm saying is that I can't think of anything that fits the description of "[a] neat consumer product that could benefit greatly from a really simple bare-die chip to reduce cost and size" that would necessarily require a digital logic solution. We're talking some cheap little widget, right? Nobody custom designs silicon to make cheap widge
University Labs (Score:4, Informative)
Mosis multi-project wafer (Score:3, Interesting)
the data is directly written to the wafer. Each project makes up 10 to 20 die on a large wafer. Flextronics was doing this for a while too, but I believe they have moved to a different business model. Check out the following link to IBM talking about their current Mosis schedule. I'm sure more info is there on the website.
http://www-03.ibm.com/chips/asics/foundry/tools/m
Good Luck
Re:Mosis multi-project wafer (Score:1)
Netcraft confirms it, ASIC's are dead (Score:5, Insightful)
From your post, you seem to be underestimating the amount of effort required to correctly design an ASIC. Verification that your hardware design is correct is an extremely difficult task and the fab costs will mean that you won't often be able to revise your design based on tests of the real world device.
If you choose an FPGA, as others have mentionned, you'll be able to inexpensively implement your logic on the device at a very low cost (for mid-low volumes). In addition, since it is field-programmable, you can revise the design, issue bugfixes, and add features very easily in most cases. If your sales ever end up reaching high volume, you will likely be able to easily transition (mostly) to a custom die ASIC when it becomes economical for you to do that.
To give you an example, the company I work for spent millions of dollars to design a custom processing ASIC for some of our hardware. Our newer boards include a reconfigurable processing FPGA and were developped for a fraction of the cost.
Re:Netcraft confirms it, ASIC's are dead (Score:3, Insightful)
FPGAs are great in a small number of area.
first google ad link (Score:3, Funny)
http://www.makeyourownchip.com/ [makeyourownchip.com]
Re:first google ad link (Score:2)
System on a chip (Score:2)
Re:System on a chip (Score:3, Informative)
There are some programmable mixed signal devices avaliable now. Off the top of my head I can think of the PSoC Mixed-Signal Array [cypress.com] from Cypress. I'm sure there are others that could be found with some searching.
We're all friends here, right? (Score:1)
And even if it sounds like a really good idea, I don't want anyone running off to the patent office or anything, OK?
---
I'm not an electronic engineer, but I play one at work.
Taiwan (Score:2)
If you're in Canada, look up CMC - they fit several designs on die from different universities which makes it cheaper to manufacture because you'll no longer have to pay for more prototypes than you need to made.
FPGAs are the way to go (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Analogue or digital? (Score:5, Informative)
Almost every reply seems to think that the only chips in existence are digital. If you are thinking of a digital design then, as the others said, FPGAs are the way to go - certainly for prototyping.
If you need an analogue device or want chip scale packaging of your device, then an asic would be more appropriate. It is possible that FPGAs are available in very small packages but I'm not very up on that.
If you're in Europe, the Europractice [www.imec.be] scheme provides access to Multi-Project Wafer (MPW) runs to reduce overall fabrication costs. They also provide the software and design kits [rl.ac.uk] that allow you to make your designs.
My price breakdown for a 10sqmm chip in the AMS C35B4 process (0.35um, 4 metal, 2 poly, high res) with 20 devices in CSOIC28 packages:
Full Europractice membership (annual): €900
Cadence IC package single license: €1800
Cadence IC package maintenance (might not be applicable for the first year): €1150
10sqmm of AMS C35B4 silicon @ €720/sqmm: €7200
20 packages @ €52/package: €1040
Total: €10,940 or €12,090
Non of the prices include any local taxes.
They also do low volume production, but I don't know anything about the pricing.
So how to bring that down? You could save €1800/€2950 on software by using free alternatives such as on this [sourceforge.net]
page. You'd have no end of problems with design rules and layout vs. schematic verification but it would be possible. Normally I'd say allocate two months of hard graft at the very least using the normal tools and with support from someone who knows what they're doing. With inadequate tools (no design rule check/layout vs. schematic) you would have to at least double it and you still might have errors.Don't be influenced by your opinions of current design processes. We use a 0.35um process all the time. It's perfectly adequate for what we want to do - in fact in many ways it is better than smaller processes for us. You could save a lot of money by going to a coarser process such as the AMIS 0.7um (2 metal, 1 poly) at €360/sqmm or the AMIS 0.5um (3 metal, 1 poly) at €420/sqmm - both with a smaller minimum size at 8sqmm. Silicon cost would then be €2880 or €3360 compared to €7200. 8sqmm is quite a lot really.
Ultimately, you need to decide what you need. If you need analogue circuitry but don't need linear capacitors, go for the cheapest process. If you do need linear caps, you'll have to use a process with 2 poly layers. If you want digital as well, go for something finer and with more metal layers
Scale, packaging, testing the bigger issues (Score:3, Informative)
First, I don't understand how a "consumer" product could need only a wafer's worth of chips. In the industry, consumer == high volume. I assume, therefore, that this isn't a commercial venture, but a hobby of some type. (Oh, and a word to the wise: Don't go around anyone in the industry with the line about the fabs for older-generation designs being in Taiwan--you'll be marked immediately as either a newb or an idiot. TSMC and UMC are leaders in the semiconductor foundry business, not also-ran bottom feeders.)
Since you mention a VLSI class I'll assume you want a purely digital chip, and that you have no special needs (ultra-high speed, analog circuits, etc.). As others have suggested, if you're doing this yourself an FPGA or microcomputer is the obvious way to go, but I'll add another reason why: A single individual, working in his garage writing Verilog or VHDL from scratch, cannot conceive and design enough VLSI logic in a year to fill up even the smallest ASIC in any process even remotely modern. (Even a five-generation-old IC process is good for 25k gates/mm^2, with the smallest die typically 5 mm^2 or so; that's a lot of Verilog!) So even if you did an ASIC, the size of the die likely would be determined by the number of pads, not the logic--a so-called "pad limited" design--and so isn't likely to be economical to produce. So, FPGA.
What you're looking for, you say, are "bare chips." Your biggest challenge isn't going to be the logic design of the chip, it's going to be this--finding a vendor that will supply bare die FPGAs that you can flip-chip or wirebond and pot to your substrate (whatever it is). Discuss the issue with your local Xilinx and Altera reps. Packaging is a far bigger problem for you than your logic design, especially if you care--maybe you don't--about nasty environmental conditions like humidity and vibration. Do a google search for "custom IC packaging" and look for a custom manufacturing house that will do this for you. Bring to the first meeting a wirebonding diagram (a drawing showing the locations of all the pads on the die to which you want to connect) of your FPGA, a technical description of the substrate material (manufacturers' trade names often suffice), and clues to your overall plan that you can share with the people making your product. If you're doing flip-chip (a.k.a. C4, or other names) packaging, be advised that the die must be specifically designed for such packaging; your task, should you choose to accept it, is to find a mutually-acceptable packaging method between yourself (who has the end-product vision), the chip vendor (who has to supply the chip), and the contract manufacturing house (who can only do the packaging/mounting techniques for which he has the materials and equipment). Oh--and be sure that the FPGA vendor supplies you TESTED bare die--not just bare die.
You may wish to ask the FPGA vendor about "chip-scale packaging" options for his part. Often these packaging schemes, which can look like bare die to the naked eye, are simpler to use than true bare die.
Finally, don't forget that you'll want the contract manufacturing house to test your product after packaging your chip, to ensure that you get good working product and not just high technology waste. Provide him a written test procedure, which typically exercises each pad he was to connect.
Best of luck, and welcome to engineering. Isn't it fun?
MOSIS (Score:2)
http://www.mosis.org/ [mosis.org]
Maxim Semiconductor (Score:3, Interesting)
More info (Score:5, Interesting)
MOSIS is exactly what I was trying to remember from my college days. I only had exposure to this back in college, so I didn't remember the prices being so high. Maybe it was subsidized a lot back when I was doing it for educational use...
What I have in mind is a chip that conmbines very simple finite state machines, some additional counters and logic gates on the digital side. Imagine a 8" x 8" breadboard full of 74-series DIPs, and you'd get the basic idea of the low complexity on the digital side.
On the analog side, I want to have some caps, opamps, and very beefy output drivers.
The whole thing is going to be "thumb sized", including the battery and the output device, so there's not a lot of room. And smaller the better -- so that's why I was thinking of bare dies.
It looks like I should first try to find a mixed-signal programmable device and hope that there is a chip-scale packaging.
I had dismissed ASIC because they seemed like overkill. A tiny uC might be okay in light of the high development costs of a chip.
Thanks guys. This has been great!
Re:More info (Score:4, Informative)
Consider SOIC packaged standard parts (Score:3, Interesting)
The previous poster's suggestion is, of course, even better IF you can find a stock chip that has the requisite analog capabilities. You can do a lot with small-outline surface-mount packages for op amps and microcontrollers; there are many inexpensive, powerful options there.
Re:More info (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other side of the board you place your TSSOP package opamps and drivers and SMD capacitors.
NRE = NOT COST EFFECTIVE (Score:1)