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Slashback: Epson, AbiWord, Justification 208

Slashback tonight brings you updates on AbiWord's recent donation theft, persistent Australian spammers, more support for open software in government, and more -- read on below. Update: 10/31 00:09 GMT by T : Oops, doubled news of AbiWord / Paypal situation update has been halved; apologies.

It was the least they could do. Last week, AbiWord's PayPal account for donations was lightened to the tune of several hundred dollars. Now, an anonymous reader writes "According to this posting, PayPal has succumbed to the pressure. They have agreed to reimburse the AbiWord team for the money that was stolen from their account last week. I still want to know how the AbiWord account was broken into..."

Because licenses matter. specht writes "I am a bit surprised that nobody has reported this yet. EPSON KOWA made their scanner and printer software available for downloading again after they had to pull it because of a GPL violation (see the previous Slashdot story). More information about this (and why it had to be removed in the first place) are here . Kudos to EPSON KOWA and EPSON for working with the FSF to resolve these issues."

No, that's "Gorilla marketing." akiaki007 writes "As many might have noticed, Friday most of Manhattan was covered with butterflies. This article on CNN that states that NYC fined MS $50.00 and the cost of cleaning up the static-cling plastic ads. On a side note, most other companies probably would have been fined per ad, though somehow MS got off, pretty much scot-free."

Priceless -- which is nice when you're paying. Digital Soldier writes "HERE is an article from Government Executive Magazine justifying, from a security perspective, the use of open source software in government. In short, the article makes the point that open source software allows security administrators to be pro-active rather than purely reactive in their work. I guess they don't like waiting for service packs."

Lovely spam, lovely spam ah ah ah ah ... ghostrider_one writes "Australian IT is reporting that notorious Australian spammers T3 direct have appealed the recent dismisssal of their lawsuit against the person they blame for being blacklisted in SPEWS."

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Slashback: Epson, AbiWord, Justification

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  • It occurs to me... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by djkitsch ( 576853 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:02PM (#4569524)
    ...that many marketing companies in London regularly go around spray-painting music artist's names onto street furniture...

    Maybe us Londoners are more relaxed about that sort of thing?
    • by Anonymous Coward
      sig:-Let's just hope we accidentally build God

      Which reminds me of the old quote. "Jesus is coming. Everybody look busy!"
  • M$'s Ads (Score:3, Interesting)

    by KeatonMill ( 566621 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:02PM (#4569529)
    $50.00 to Microsoft is like 1 cent to the rest of the world. I suppose that the reason they got is because they 'support' public officials. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if those public officials gave them support on the ads in the first place.
    • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:2, Funny)

      by Soulfader ( 527299 )
      So buying .Net server is going to cost me what, a quarter? =)
    • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jhunsake ( 81920 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:07PM (#4569569) Journal
      Average middle class person with $100,000 positive net worth (being generous to avergae of course) = $0.01 / $100,000 = 0.0000001

      Microsoft with $40 billion in cash = $50 / $40 bil = 0.00000000125
    • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:16PM (#4569633)
      I think it's pretty funny that Micro$oft would choose a bug as it's logo.
      • Maybe they want people to think that some day all of the Microsoft bugs will turn into something beautiful.

        That buffer overflow - it's not just some ugly bug, it's a caterpillar. Some day it will grow up to be a beautiful butterfly called CodeNimdaRed.

    • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:5, Interesting)

      by d.valued ( 150022 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:37PM (#4569762) Journal
      One, I hate it when /. refuses a post just to use it from someone else later. Besides, my copy was much better than this.

      Two: This is pure bullshit. IBM does something similar in San Fran with the "peace love Linux" logos and gets hurt for over $100,000 in fines. They did it in Chicago and they got assesed an $18,000 fine to the person who actually laid chalk on concrete and community service.

      Why the hell did they only hit them up with a $50 fine? For a multibillion dollar corporation, headed by the world's richest man, this is lunacy. Per ad would have been better; a whopping huge fine would've been best.

      Maybe Mayor Rich^H^H^H^HBloomberg didn't want to rock the boat and piss off a potential contributor.... then again, IIRC he _did_ run in '01 out of his pocket....

      • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:3, Informative)

        by monkeybrain ( 305911 )
        M$ are repeat offenders too - they got fined for doing this in Australia for the XBox launch.

        The trouble is that the fines aren't large enough - they need to be substantially larger than the amount of publicity generated by the hoo har that results from defacing the public property (i.e. they get on the prime time news, etc). The fine should be more like $1M.
      • Re:M$'s Ads (Score:3, Insightful)

        by DDX_2002 ( 592881 )
        $50.00 + cost of removal is NOT the same thing as $50.00. What do you figure the average NYC Public Works crew gets paid per hour, plus cost of gas and vehicle maintenance, overhead in coordinating efforts, any tools necessary to remove decals... that all adds up pretty fast.
  • by grytpype ( 53367 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:04PM (#4569539) Homepage
    PayPal is not a bank. It's not run like a bank, it's not regulated like a bank, and deposits are not insured like a bank.
    • You're the first Goon reference I've ever seen on Slashdot! Congrats and kudos, dude!
    • Except it is. Paypal's own page here []states that they keep your money in a bank that is FDIC insured, and that any losses are covered via pass-through regulation. If that bank is looted while your funds are there via Paypal, you still get your money back up to the regulation $100,000.
      • The problem being 2-fold here. #1 I don't think the FDIC insurance protects against someone withdrawing money fraudlently in your name, and #2 the account is in PayPal's name so if paypal were to withdraw the money and use it you wouldn't get any money from the FDIC insurance.
      • The FDIC insures you against loss of money due to the bank. The FDIC doesn't insure your money if it is stolen from you pocket, it doesn't insure the money if it is Stolen from you by checks or by debit card.

        Nothing insures you from theft unless explicitly stated. Visa states that you are insured for all purchases through VISA and ONLY VISA. Has *NOTHING* to do with FDIC insurance.

        FDIC insures that if the bank is fraudulent, goes out of business or gets blown up that you get your money back up to the $100,000.00 insured.

        Now if your dumb ass leaves a blank check or a debit card * pin number laying around FDIC isn't going to protect you from squat and it WOULD BE THE BANKS DISCRETION TO PAY YOU IF ANYTHING AT ALL.
      • That claim misses the point. The countless complaints about PayPal aren't due to claims that it was insolvant, but because it was transferring funds without the owner's consent and then dragging its feet in resolving the complaint.

        Here's a hint: with very little information anyone can create false documents to access my checking account. It is trivial for anyone who had legitimate access to one of my checks. They'll probably even manage to get them cashed. But the back cannot refuse to acknowledge my complaint of criminal fraud, and I'll probably get my money back immediately if the signatures don't match at all, etc.
    • by buffy ( 8100 ) <buffy&parapet,net> on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:40PM (#4569769) Homepage
      PayPal is not a bank. It's not run like a bank, it's not regulated like a bank, and deposits are not insured like a bank.

      PayPal looks like a bank, smells like a bank, and sounds like a bank. The fact that they are not regulated nor insured doesn't mean they're not a bank--only that they've not yet been busted as such. Write your congress critters to take note. PP all but ignores a large amount of fraud, simply because it's cheaper to do so--most people won't do the leg work necessary to get their, usually, smaller amounts of cash back.

      Regulation will come eventually. PP/e-bay will put that date off as long as possible for sure, however.

      • Write your congress critters to take note.
        And fight to shut down/cripple something that's obviously filling a real e-commerce niche? How about instead writing to your bank, who are regulated, insured and already have infrastructure to tell them to expand into escrow services online. Given the choice, who would you rather transact through - Paypal, or your bank?
    • PayPal is not a bank. It's not run like a bank, it's not regulated like a bank, and deposits are not insured like a bank.

      Aren't the individual accounts FDIC insured through the banks that hold the money? Granted this is not exactly the same thing, but although PayPal is not a bank, there are banks at veraios places in the transactions.
    • PayPal is not a bank - it's a payment system. Some people comment that it looks like a bank, quacks like a bank, and has a bank attached to the back end somewhere, but they're missing the point - the important issues in banking regulation systems are to make sure that the bank doesn't rip you off, and handles your money in a stable non-risky fashion, unlike a stockbroker account, where the investments are inherently recognized to be risky, but where there are still regulations to discourage the stockbroker from ripping you off.

      A payment system is different from a bank or an investment broker - its main job is to move money around, not store it except temporarily, so unlike a bank, if your money earns interest that's pure gravy, and unlike a stockbroker, if your money loses value other than the documented fees, that's highly unexpected, but in all three cases, they've got basic fiduciary responsibility to not rip you off, and to not give your money to other people without permission. It's *your* money, not theirs.

      Regulation may discourage this, and money-handling services benefit very strongly from trusted independent regulators and auditors, because that makes customers more willing to deal with them (and if they didn't have regulators bullying them around for free or insuring them for a subsidized price, they'd go out and buy equivalent services themselves), but fundamentally anybody who doesn't run their business competently will find Darwin kicking them out of the gene pool whether there are regulators helping them or not.

  • So do I! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:04PM (#4569540)
    "I still want to know how the AbiWord account was broken into..."

    So do I!

    I need a new digital camera...
  • by taniwha ( 70410 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:04PM (#4569541) Homepage Journal
    I'm pretty tolerant about /.s occasional posting of the same article twice. But doing it within the same article is just too wierd ...
  • by 91degrees ( 207121 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:04PM (#4569542) Journal
    But there are others with complaints against PayPal.

    Are they going to help them? here is a whole website [] about how bad they are. Several in fact.
    • by cybrthng ( 22291 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @09:07PM (#4569926) Journal
      I don't work for paypal and don't know anyone who does.

      1. I've never had a problem.
      2. Been a customer "since day one"
      3. I've done a few grand through paypal and while they don't have phone support, i've never had an un-answered email request.

      I only deal with ebay sellers +5, i only take payments from verified paypal account holders and i keep a seperate checking account established for just linking to such accounts.

      Paypal is a godsend for those who push money, goods and materials. I don't treat it like a bank, and i respect it for what is is.

      Change your passwords, don't be "gullible" deal with good people.

      Common sense people.
      • by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @10:34PM (#4570427)
        I ran a mail order sales business and took PayPal. I started when PayPal fact, I used their $10 free/$10 referral to drum up business. Sign up for PayPal through me and I'll give you the $10 referral I get in store credit. Worked great, business boomed.

        Then PayPal took all my money (or allowed someone else to), forced me into bankruptcy, the bank took my house and my wife ran off with the PayPal support guy - we had so many problems they fell in love after talking on the phone and exchanging e-mails so much. Now I'm posting this from the public library, I sleep in my '75 Vega, shower at the Y (don't drop the soap), eat out of McDonald's dumpster.

        Yeah, you all wish that was the story, don't you? The fact is neither I nor any customers had any trouble with PayPal. I continue to use PayPal for auctions, again without trouble. My password is "fraGTh1$BuddY**867-5309" so you see it's very secure and I keep it safe - not even my wife knows it.

        Basic security precautions, people. The fault lies not with the stars but with ourselves (or something like that).
  • by carb ( 611951 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:07PM (#4569566) Homepage
    I'm enjoying the idea of a handful of Microsoft PR employees rubbing these static-cling butterfly ads over their heads, vigorously no doubt, to achieve the desired sticky effect.
  • Epson. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well the thing about Epson allowing downloads again has already been reported. BTW Epson makes some nice high-end scanners. One model for about $800 can have any particular interface installed. USB, FireWire, SCSI, Ethernet. Plug-in card.
    • "Well the thing about Epson allowing downloads again has already been reported"

      I never heard.

      I do have to say they make some great scanners. I love my 640U. Its quick and still makes great quality scans compared to anything out there.
  • "That's the PayPal news. Now it's time for the PayPal news..."

    Jeez, lots of people bitch and whine about duplicate stories being posted, but when the same news is posted twice in the *same* story, you gotta laugh...
  • M$ adds (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MadCow-ard ( 330423 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:11PM (#4569595)
    Of course the marketers knew what they were doing with the ads. Did they not realize they were breaking the law? Of course they knew. They were counting on it, and by making waves, they were counting on getting on CNN and maybe others (/.). If they didn't make a fuss and apologize and such, then I, who am not a New Yorker, would never have known or seen the photo of the campaign. It worked. That's why they did it, and took the risk. So what if they have to pay a few dollars, even per butterfly. Its cheaper than running an add, most likely!
    • Yep. I don't hate Microsoft, but I think they got off way too lightly on this. If some common joe had posted stickers all over New York for some demo CD he made, they'd put him in jail for vandalism.

      That would rock if you could "arrest" corporations. :-)
      • As someone who lives in manhattan, I can tell you that if they're arresting all the guys putting up stickers/posters illegally it's not deterring anyone at all. Maybe they need to move to caning.
    • Re:M$ adds (Score:2, Funny)

      by One Louder ( 595430 )
      NY: Hey! Pay this $1,000,000 fine!

      MS: Let me introduce you to the BSA.

      NY: Did I say $1,000,000? I meant $50.

      MS: I thought so.

    • All you Microsoft-bashers crying about Microsoft getting off "scott-free" should read the article again. They had PERMITS for crying out loud! And the city didn't argue the fact that they had permits, only that the permits were improperly issued. Sounds to me like the CITY made the mistake, and Microsoft shouldn't have been fined at all!

      Of course, I'm certainly no Microsoft-lover, but c'mon guys, be honest. If there's ONE thing that Microsoft has consistently done WELL, it's gotta be marketing. We geeks could learn something from them.

      • Sorry, but the parent post's (+3 insightful) claim is unsupported by any source except a single MS executive (cited in the NYT story []) who, when asked what the issuing agency was for those "permits", conferred with her ad agency team and after due consideration refused to say.

        All fact-checking aside, it defies belief that any NYC agency has the power or the inclination to issue permits for the plastering of decals over public subway signs, private building facades, and public sidewalks.


  • *) The PayPal documents were multi-page MS Word documents. AbiWord opened and printed both copies (paper output in my hands) before OpenOffice even loaded. Abi's versions look better, to boot.

    I was quite impressed with the performance from AbiWord. This really is a good incentive to check it out!

  • by fmaxwell ( 249001 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:14PM (#4569612) Homepage Journal
    I am certain that high-profile news stories on Slashdot, The Register, and elsewhere had nothing to do with PayPal's decision to refund the money to the Abiword account. Now if any of us loses hundreds of dollars off of PayPal, we can be comfortable in the knowledge that PayPal will refund the amount we lost.
  • hmmmm (Score:4, Funny)

    by fuzzywig ( 208937 ) <default DOT fuzz AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:21PM (#4569669)
    Am I the only one to see the irony in the fact that a /. Ed goes a bit copy/paste mad and suddenly there's not 1 dupe but at least 16 comments (out of 32 at the mo) all saying the same thing. I mean, did you think that no one else had noticed?
  • by JabberWokky ( 19442 ) <> on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:23PM (#4569676) Homepage Journal
    So let me get this straight - the prosecution had 8 by 10 colored glossy photos with a circle and arrow on the back of each one, they took tire prints, foot prints, dog smellin' prints...

    And Microsoft had to pay $50 and clean up the garbage?!?!?!

    Typical case of American Blind Justice, I think!

    Evan "Ah, the classics..."

  • by Andy Smith ( 55346 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:26PM (#4569706)
    Two facts:

    1. I've never used PayPal.
    2. I've never lost any money to PayPal.

    Somehow these seem connected.
  • by aminorex ( 141494 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:31PM (#4569731) Homepage Journal
    This time, I want to walk around town with a marker,
    putting swastikas on all the butterflies.
    • Is it illegal to graffiti something that is already deemed illegal?? I mean, I know it would be illegal in Germany to walk around drawing Swastikas on these things, but maybe not in the US ( or Australia, if they try something here)
  • The Perpetrators (Score:5, Interesting)

    by namespan ( 225296 ) <namespan@elite m a i> on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:35PM (#4569752) Journal
    Here's my question: did Pay Pal give AbiWord the information about the transaction so they can track down the thieves who did this?

    If not, why not? Maybe there's NOT a security problem... and the thieves work at PayPal?

    OK, it's ridiculous... but so is the idea that Pay Pal wouldn't help AbiWord with such info...

  • Microsoft Ads (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Neologic ( 48268 )
    Reminds me of the old saying, "There's no such thing as bad publicity".

    Makes you wonder, why pay for commercials during prime time news, when you can be the news for so much cheaper?

  • by eclectro ( 227083 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:39PM (#4569767)

    The idea of a grown man in a butterfly suit quite frankly scares me.

  • by rob-fu ( 564277 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:39PM (#4569768)
    what about the countless other people that haven't resolved problems with Paypal? It seems the only way to get a response from them is to have someone post a story on Slashdot so they'll buckle under the pressure :)
    • Paypal is now owned by Ebay.

      Ebay wants to keep people happy.

      I could care less about AbiWord tipjar. Other places with 1000x the amount of funds abiword ever saw do just fine.

      I'm sure Trillians tip jar was larger then abiword's by 100 fold, yet they didn't have problems!
  • by Dionysus ( 12737 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:41PM (#4569774) Homepage
    How is what Microsoft did in NY different from what IBM did in SF?
  • "On a side note, most other companies probably would have been fined per ad, though somehow MS got off, pretty much scot-free."

    They admitted wrong, publically apologized, and cleaned up their mess. That's how they got off 'scot-free'.
    • Yeah - there's a lot of times where admitting you were wrong, publically apologizing, and cleaning up your mess is all that is needed. Propose that to the cop when you get pulled over...
      • "Yeah - there's a lot of times where admitting you were wrong, publically apologizing, and cleaning up your mess is all that is needed. Propose that to the cop when you get pulled over..."

        I have. I was pulled over once at 2am in the morning going 40 in a 25. The rest of the road was 40 mph, but this was next to a school. However, at 2am in the morning on a Saturday (Sunday?) there was no children. What I did was illegal, but for all intents and purposes it was harmless.

        When the officer asked for my license I handed it to him and said "I'm sorry, I was going way too fast." That was it. I didn't even get a written warning. I imagine the officer was happy that I didn't try to give him a BS excuse to rationalize doing something illegal.
    • Pretty much scot free is about $50, apparently.

      Yes, I know Microsoft's butterfly decals are not much different than IBM's Linux campaign, but let's think for a bit here. The stickers that Microsoft used were rather slick on the top, I hear, and putting them on the curbs and sidewalks is like an invitation for hip-breaking.
      • "The stickers that Microsoft used were rather slick on the top, I hear, and putting them on the curbs and sidewalks is like an invitation for hip-breaking."

        No doubt about that. And if they did break somebody's hip you know MS'd be in rather big trouble.

        Question: Weren't the 'stickers' more like mouse pads? They didn't really stick so much as they just didn't move very easily? Weren't they really easy to pick up?

        Unfortunately, it was hard to tell that from TV. It didn't look like clean-up would have been a big deal as long as MS did it themseles instead of having the city waste taxpayer money to do it.

        I do suspect, though, that there might have been concern over whether or not MS would retaliate. Imagine what an MS audit would bring up...
    • I am just grateful they didn't use the Right to innovate defense.
  • by ittanmomen ( 596981 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:44PM (#4569793)
    How about giving M$ a taste of their own medicine? NT users have to pay per server and per license fee, so why not charge charge M$ per square meter and per pedestrian that walked by at the time?
  • by antiher0 ( 41258 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @08:52PM (#4569834)
    Update: 10/31 00:09 GMT by T: Oops, doubled news of AbiWord / Paypal situation update has been halved; apologies. Those responsible have been sacked.

    Thank you.
  • #define SARCASM biting
    Boy, I've seen duplicate stories on /. but never duplicate inane discussion messages!

    What next, duplicate discussions of duplicate discussions?!? Quick, call CNN, they're sure to not give a crap.
    #undef SARCASM
  • by merriam ( 16227 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @09:02PM (#4569901)

    ... unsatisfying resolutions.

    Paypal will resolve a problem with a prominent customer after a big fuss has been made about it. Otherwise, of course, no change.

    Epson makes the smallest possible change to a license (not to forbid reverse engineering), so as to use an LGPLed library legally. It looks like Epson tried it on; it didn't work out, but it was worth a try.

    Microsoft was almost certain to gain more by the stunt than it would lose in fines. $50 per "decal" would have been cheap, but it wasn't even fined that much.

    • Microsoft was almost certain to gain more by the stunt than it would lose in fines. $50 per "decal" would have been cheap, but it wasn't even fined that much.

      To be honest, no matter how we see the situation, the fines are not meant to ensure that Microsoft pays more than it gained, but to gain some assurance that this does not happen again. I guess that this was covered by the two correspondents.
    • "Paypal will resolve a problem with a prominent customer..."

      "Prominent" customer? I hardly think the tip jar for the guy giving away a homebrewed word processor qualifies as "prominent". So, do you know how the money was taken? How do you know it was Paypal's fault?
  • When I first saw these ads online, I thought, "That's what Arthur looks like in color." Arthur [] is the sidekick of The Tick. Arthur dresses up in white, but otherwise it's an almost prefect match (he's even kind of nerdy). I wont try to explain why the show is so much fun to watch.
  • ...MS $50.00....

    Does Microsoft have is own currency now ?... Well i guess it makes sense : )
  • refund or donation? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fermion ( 181285 )
    So, did ebay make this reimbursement as a donation or refund? In other words, did they admit guilt, or make a tax deductable gifte?
  • by Salubri ( 618957 ) on Wednesday October 30, 2002 @09:54PM (#4570185) Journal
    I feel this sudden urge to make a joke about performing illegal operations and Microsoft, but after a while you just start to wait expectantly for the legal ones. So, once again, Microsoft has performed an illegal operation and will not be shut down. Look on the bright side of this one though. This one is actually minorly entertaining from the stupidity factor. You sit back and wonder about a few things. 1.) Which ececutive woke up one morning and said "I know what we can do to drum up buisness! Lets annoy and confuse people by having a bunch of people in butterfly costumes litter a section of a major metropolis! Customers will be SO impressed with our superior marketing that they'll switch ISP's in the DROVES!!!" 2.) How much it costs to get someone to throw dignity out the window and skate through NYC in a brightly colored butterfly costume. 3.) How they were able to find so MANY people willing to skate through NYC in a brightly colored butterfly costume. 4.) How hard did the judge laugh/cry while in his chambers that with all the dealings with Microsoft in court, he had to deal with this part, as opposed to something possibly weighty and constructive like the antitrust dealings. and finally... 5.) We know they paid the $50.00 fine and cleaned it up, but how much was it to buy the dignities of all the skaters, pay for the actual cellophane ads, buy/rent the butterfly costumes, and pay for the lawyers time in the courtroom that bought them such a low fine. When you think about ALL that, it was a little more expensive for their little ad campaign. Was it still cheaper than a TV ad? Probably. But still, I'm actually curious as to the $$ ammount M$ pays people for a slice of dignity and a few minutes ot time on skates...
  • A few weeks ago I had $15 removed from my account, without notice. PayPal claims they sent me to chargeback warnings via email, but my mail server logs showed no such emails.

    The amount was a donation to an educational site [] that I run, but the credit chargeback was because I 'failed to deliver merchandise'. How I failed to deliver on a donation is beyond me.

    Unfortunatly, PayPal won't give me time of day over the issue. It is a shame that I would have to be an open source project, and rally the slashdot masses, in order to have a chance at reasonable customer support.


"For a male and female to live continuously together is... biologically speaking, an extremely unnatural condition." -- Robert Briffault