Abiword's PayPal Donation Fund Robbed 608
SabberFlapper writes "According to this Announcement to the developer list of Abiword the Abiword fund was robbed. Dom Lachowicz writes: 'I'm duty bound to let you all know that the AbiWord Fund/Tip Jar has
been robbed approximately three weeks ago. I'm telling you this now,
rather than sooner, since I believed that Paypal would do something
about my complaints during the interim, and that this would all be
resolved quietly. Today, 23 days later, this does not look like it will
happen. [..]
I do however, recommend doing several things:
1) Writing to Paypal, in letter, email, or fax form alerting them to
this travesty.
2) Calling Paypal on AbiWord's behalf.
3) Writing or calling your Congressman/woman, pointing out that Paypal
is acting like a bank, but not operating under formal banking laws.
4) Boycotting Paypal because of these reasons, and the fact that their
system is notoriously insecure, and encouraging others to do the same.'" Of all the groups to steal from -- AbiWord?
Screw Paypal. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Screw Paypal. (Score:5, Funny)
How was it done? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How was it done? (Score:4, Insightful)
My thoughts is more along the lines of: find out who it is, track them down, and have them charged with wire fraud.
Chances are that the cost to paypal of dealing with the court order, etc. would be more than the cost of them dealing with this in a more sane manner... but what the hell!
And I really do think that the cretin that did this deserves to get a criminal record for this anyways... Chances are that this isn't the only account that (s)he's robbed.
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Informative)
Depends on the mood of the cops that deal with him. I was once involved in the citizens arrest of a guy that was abusing his girlfriend on the street. I was on the bus, and when we saw this, the bus driver stopped, and a bunch of us got out to help the woman. As soon as he saw that help was comming, the guy just stopped, and didn't offer any resistance. When we asked him what was going on, he said "That's OK, she's just my ex". That's when I placed him under arrest.
While we were waiting for the cops to show up (took maybe 2 minutes), another passenger got off the bus, called the guy a fu*king asshole and punched him in the face, giving him a bloody nose.
When the cops showed up, they asked about the bloody nose, and I replied, "somebody hit him". They didn't blink and they didn't bother to ask any further.
Although I'm generally anti-violence and waved off the guy that hit this bastard, I'm not completely sad about that outcome. I'm presuming that he plead guilty because I haven't heard any further from the cops about this incident.
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Informative)
SHouldn't we be writing Ebay? (Score:5, Informative)
?sp
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Interesting)
How about this [paypalwarning.com]? Could Dom have been suckered by such a message? (More details here [paypalwarning.com].)
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Interesting)
Typically what happens with PayPal cases like these [paypalwarning.com] (they're extremely common) is that the account is "restricted" from some trivial reason like a cancelled payment or for no reason at all, and then it is impossible to withdraw money from the account. Then PayPal will start making unauthorised withdrawals from you bank account and credit card. They won't unrestrict the account until you fax them utility bills, social security card scans, drivers license scans, etc multiple times because they always claim they they didn't receive the information. Even then, it is rare to get the account un-restricted. Complaints and investigations by police, government, etc tend to get the account nuked. And of course you never get your money back.
Hence, you have been 'robbed' by paypal.
Re:Q Re: Bank accounts (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yes. No. (Score:3, Informative)
Visa now requires (if you are processing a card without being able to swipe the actual plate) a zip code for the account holder as well as the card exp date.
This catches alot of would be number swipers off guard. No zip, No charge. End of Line.
Re:How was it done? (Score:3, Insightful)
You, Sir, are a troll.
Either you haven't read that mail as well, or you are intentionally lying. The mail at the link does not contain any information how this fraud was possible.
Don't give them bank details (Score:4, Insightful)
They actually tried to tell me that I couldn't accept a payment without bank details a couple of days ago. When I pressed the only button that didn't cancel the payment I was *then* given the option to accept without adding bank details.
PayPal is like the stock market -- don't put anything in that you can't afford to lose.
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:5, Informative)
They do exist though.
# Their toll free number is (888) 221-1161
# Another toll free number is (800) 836-1859
# Yet another toll free number is (877)672-9725
# Their NEW regular telephone number is: (650) 864-8000
# Their regular phone number is: (650) 251-1100
# Their fax number is: (650) 251-1101
# Their mailing address is:
PayPal
P.O. Box 45950
Omaha, NE 68145
# Their corporate offices are at:
1840 Embarcadero Rd.
Palo Alto, CA 94303
US
# The Nebraska office is at:
Paypal
11128 John Galt Boulevard
Omaha, NE 68137
(402) 935-2000
(402) 935-7733
If you're one of the legions who've been fucked, there's a class action lawsuit you might be eligible to join.
Once I finally got through to someone at PayPal, they were pretty good about getting me my money. But it was a royal pain in the ass.
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:5, Funny)
Forgive me for asking.. but that name sounds familiar. Who is John Galt?
Re: Who is John Galt? (Score:3, Funny)
Re: Who is John Galt? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Who is he for real? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:4, Interesting)
Schwab [schwab.com] has deposit-only account/routing numbers for all their accounts (they're the ones given out for direct deposit, currently under Account -> Transfers & Payments -> Direct Deposit). If money is attempted to be removed using the same numbers, an "account not found" error is given (saving the fees from both ends associated with the "account overdrawn" error). This works with PayPal, because they verify your account by depositing small amounts of money into it (which will work).
Granted, you have to have quite a bit of dough [schwab.com] for it to make sense to use Schwab for checking, but it would be interesting to know if any other banks provide this kind of service. Of course, it would be more useful if one could pressure all banks to provide this. Then again, I guess the ultimate solution would be to have the same consumer protections that apply to credit cards also apply to one's account/routing numbers.
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:4, Informative)
paypalwarning.com [paypalwarning.com]
paypalsucks.com [paypalsucks.com]
Re:Don't give them bank details (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, no problem!
PAYPAL HOWTO
-----------------------
(1) Don't.
-
Re:Create a dedicated account (Score:3, Insightful)
Overdraft.
It doesn't matter if there is no money in the account - if paypal thinks that they have authorization to make the transaction, and they attempt to do so, your bank will most likely give them the money, give you a negative account balance, and stick you with overdraft fees.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your solution is not really optimal. It still leaves you exposed to greater risk than a credit card only solution.
Jerry
What surprises me (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Insightful)
This is like putting your stuff in public storage, having the garage broken into, all your stuff stolen, only to find out they've replaced the attendant with an automated box and have chosen to leave you no way to contact a person.
It's despicable, and it stinks of fraud.
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Insightful)
And if paypal wants to be an internet only company, fine. They should act like it, though, and get the asses moving on the emails. An internet only company should have given him an answer in under 24 hours. If any internet only company takes more than 48 hours to get something done for me, I get antsy.
This guys been waiting weeks! I've seen letters cross the atlantic and pacific oceans faster than they respond to problems.
Saying "Don't like it? Take your business elsewhere." is a cop-out. I'm soon going to be running a computer company, and if it were broken into and a customers machine stolen, I wouldn't tell them "too bad, and don't bother talking to me again". I'd probably go to jail.
So, if I can't cop-out, why can PayPal? Because everyone "knows" they're a bunch of crooks? That's a pathetic excuse.
[ And yes, I do do my business elsewhere. I'd rather give the crack addict my money to look after than PayPal. At least I'd know where it ends up. ]
Re:What surprises me (Score:4, Interesting)
I quit using Amazon.com after I decided I needed to call them and discovered that their "Contact Us" page does not contain a phone number.
I encourage everyone to boycott companies that try to avoid spending money on a very necessary call center. Sprint ($5 if you want to make a credit card payment while talking to a live representative), Amazon.com (I dare you to find a phone number on the 'Contact Us' page), and any others.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What surprises me (Score:4, Insightful)
If that bad 1% costs you half the income from the other 99%, when what's the value of doing the work to begin with?? You might as well walk away from the process and save yourself the trouble of doing all that work for the benefit of some crook.
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Interesting)
sprint on the other hand is a really disappointing company... i'm getting rid of sprint, though for entirely different reasons.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Interesting)
I call bullshit -- or at least misinformed.
Not only do you accrue interest on the cash balance in your PayPal "account", they also have a money market fund you can invest in.
If they aren't trying to be a bank but saying otherwise, I... never mind.
My point is that PayPal are whores with the ethics of a petty thief, and I sincerely hope eBay straightens them right out.
However, since I read about the debacle of eBay CSRs getting told off for shutting down questionable auctions because those auctions belonged to Power Sellers (eBay's most profitable customers), I'm now questioning eBay's ethics/morals as well.
*sigh*...
Re:What surprises me (Score:3, Informative)
(1) The first line should have been italicised, since I was quoting the parent comment.
(2) The eBay CSRs were being told off by their supervisors, not by the Power Sellers.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Interesting)
Why did you just post 17 articles in defense of Pay Pal?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Easy (Score:3, Interesting)
Way to make everyone else's case with your own analogy.
In the case of banking, this "insurance" is mandated by the federal government. So yes, if your bank account gets robbed they do owe you something.
Similarly, credit card companies are bound by federal law [findlaw.com] to hold you liable for no more than $50 of charges if your card is stolen. There is such a thing as consumer fraud protection in this world.
The legal issue is simply if PayPal should be held to a bank's level of responsibility or not.
The issue is NOT "life is risky, screw you if you get screwed." God that mentality makes me puke.
Re:What surprises me (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What surprises me (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think PayPal should "eat" any costs for these fradulent transactions. They do not provide insurance on transfers. But I think they have an absolute obligation to investigate complaints of fraud, including publication of detailed contact information and tracking of illicit purchases such as this. Paypal could easily work with the merchant involved in that transaction and get the order stopped and the individual found through shipping information, etc. The could go to the FBI or some other authority with this data. But they refuse to do so because they do not want to employ even enough staff to do minimal protection of their customers.
It *is* a problem with their security because they don't have any security other than a password. A password will not magically protect you from all evildoers and is even a rather weak form of authentication when they could be using e.g. some sort of downloadable client with a private key signature scheme. This is necessary IMHO for these sorts of high risk environments like the one Paypal serves. And authentication alone is not enough - they must take steps to investigate claims of fraud and punish those who perpetrate it.
It is well known and has been for a long time among criminal elements online that Paypal is an easy target for fraud and that little investigation is done. This attracts more of this tyoe of person to Paypal.
I know I made the right decision when I closed my account with them a long time ago, when their abuses first began to surface. If they are handling people's money, security should be their foremost concern, and I didn't trust them with the security of my money. Not to mention that they are probably stealing people's money directly themselves.
I'd like to know why you seem to support this behavior as strongly as seem to based on your comment history. Do you have some interest in promoting Paypal?
Re:What surprises me (Score:5, Informative)
They take deposits and pay interest [paypal.com], and are covered by FDIC [paypal.com]. That legally makes them a bank, whatever they may claim.
It isn't just the criminals; it is paypal too (Score:3, Interesting)
But when it comes time to pay, they have so many exclusionary principles [and I don't say exclusionary clauses: you don't see these until you try to collect] that they are effectively not insured.
Further, because of profit structure of their current system, they actually do not even stop the criminals when they could easily do so. A criminal who does $1500/mo. of business through their system is preferred over an honest person who does $50/month; and they help to effectively hide the criminal.
So effectively they provide a haven for criminals, and they also provide a safe-looking "waystation" where unsuspecting people can be waylaid.
That was the specific case of my own ~$500 loss to a criminal on the paypal system with the help of Paypal's structure. They could have easily stopped the payment, they chose not to. They could have easily submitted the fraud claim to the insurance [there were several levels of fraud, 3 of them provable, the fourth being that he shipped a Win98 User's manual instead of the licensed copy of Quark he sold]. However, since there was ONE instance of "unprovable" fraud (well, he shipped something) then they said "valid sale, no insurance."
Paypal needs to go. I don't mind them existing, I don't particularly need the government to get involved, but people need to stop using paypal on their own, not for a boycott, but for their own sake -- more reasons for which have been added here.
I, for one, will not pay by Paypal again.
They waylaid me. Not some criminal [who did take advantage]. No. PAYPAL waylaid me.
Re:It isn't just the criminals; it is paypal too (Score:5, Informative)
2. "Some guy" used fraudulent information on his paypal account. This too is provable.
3. "Some guy" shipped a Quark backup CD (no installation codes, no license) and a Win98 OEM User's Manual instead of a Quark CD with Installation codes (for Quark, Install codes = license, you call Quark with the codes and transfer ownership). I paid a normal used price for that, around 600USD.
4. In the dispute resolution he admitted to 1-3, but said "caveat emptor, tough toenails."
Ebay, with this, immediately gave the $175 insurance maximum.
So far, the criminal is the enemy. Agreed.
However, I was
(1) able to trace down one other fraud of his, by some guesswork, and found that indeed he was getting kid glove service from Paypal as a power seller
(2) as soon as there was a problem, I notified Paypal. They could have frozen his account -- they didn't.
(3) Paypal claims insurance, but doesn't give the details
(4) Paypal made it next to impossible for me to even submit an insurance claim, because I asked them to send us all our money, and close the account [we were leaving the US, and by the Paypal TCUs, we had to do this]. Actually, it is funny, but our Paypal account still isn't closed, but that's their fault, not ours. They canceled the check they sent us to close the account, a few days after we deposited it, and sent us an email saying that they were reopening the account -- but there's nothing I can do about that. I'd prefer it closed, and I'm not going to use it ever again.
My biggest problem with it is that they claimed to be insured -- but when you read the reports about the actual insurance, or try to submit a claim, they essentially are not insured. And they don't fight the criminals. When you do those two things, you sent up an apparently safe "waystation" where travelers can be waylaid.
To me, that is criminal in and of itself, not just sleezy.
I am *not* asking for government intervention. But I do think that people should know that Paypal used to consort with criminals, to the mutual profit of both and to the loss of honest customers. Whether or not Ebay [paypal's new owner] does, or will clean things up, I don't know. But from this post, it would seem that perhaps they still do.
Re:What surprises me (Score:4, Interesting)
It's Paypal's fault. Banking institutions take out indemnities against things like theft and fraud, as well as corporate liability insurance and the like. If Paypal don't, they shouldn't be allowed to trade.
ok Paypal sux, but.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:ok Paypal sux, but.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:ok Paypal sux, but.... (Score:4, Informative)
For U.S. citizens that primarily send/receive money to other U.S. citizens, c2it appears to be a far superior and safer option of doing it.
However, for businesses that accept PayPal for transactions, c2it appears limited - especially for foreign transactions.
In short, c2it looks to be more of an extension of a bank, then a payment solution for business.
Some of my businesses use PayPal - loss of the money is always a risk and thus we regularily transfer funds out of it and closely monitor the account.
From my understanding our maximum liability for loss, if reported timely, is limited to the funds in the PayPal account and $50 (if even that) for the credit card and $50-$500 for ACH. My business can afford these losses if they were to ever occur and is built-in to our cost of doing business using PayPal.
With that said, there needs to be more legal protections put in place for PayPal users since many businesses and individuals aren't aware of the risks nor more importantly can't afford to lose any money.
Re:ok Paypal sux, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
yeah, that single message about a service i might actually find useful sure did piss me off too
i have no interest in protecting citibank, but overzealous /. vigilantes desperate to find a cause to bitch about really tick me off by giving everyone else here such a bad name
Re:ok Paypal sux, but.... (Score:5, Informative)
C2IT [c2it.com] is run by a real bank. (Citibank) Try finding their contact information and then see how fast you can find paypal's info.
Btw, some other paypal info:
Paypal's tech support is outsourced to India.
Someone already tried to sue paypal and force bank regulations on them but it failed [com.com]
Stories like this one are very, VERY common [paypalwarning.com]
The Abiword people should be joining the Class Action Suit [paypalwarning.com] against Paypal
There are many Paypal alternatives [paypalwarning.com] including the aforementioned C2IT.
If you are still using paypal for money that you can't afford to lose, you are on very thin ice.
That's revolting... (Score:3, Interesting)
The question is, what other services are there in Internet space that does the same thing they do? Any banks trying to offer secure payment over the Internet?
Re:That's revolting... (Score:3, Informative)
Mr. Fusion
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I would like to know how they did it (Score:3, Informative)
My parents own a small electronics repair shop. It was robbed recently. My parents had to pay each customer what their stolen tv,vcr,stereo etc.. was worth. Paypal is password protected, my parents business was locked with a key. Sorry but I do not see much of a difference. My parents eventually got most of the money back via the insurance company and some of the stuff was recovered within a few weeks.
I think every person with a tv claimed they were less then 1 year old and 5 inches larger, it was a comical event to watch them back peddle when their stuff was recovered.
didn't you already know this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it sucks. It is pretty terrible that donations where robbed. But common sence could have avoided it. You call for a boycott now - well hundreds have been saying this for some time and it was ignored... People have been attempting to get PayPal to have to live up to the same standards of a bank for a long time now. I am sure it is a shock when it is you that gets ripped off but it shouldn't shock you that much that PayPal is being less than helpful.
NR
Pro-bono lawyers might help here (Score:5, Interesting)
Any lawyers out there willing to help out AbiWord pro bono?
Paypal Sucks (Score:2)
I, for one, cannot understand how paypal is allowed to get away with all this. People even suggested that things might change once eBay took them over, but apparently that hasn't happened yet. What a shame, I remember when PayPal was actually quite a helpful service. Now it just appears to be too much trouble, especially if something goes wrong.
($581 * 2) + tax == ~$1,200 (Score:2)
This truly sucks. As a maintainer of a few open source packages myself, who currently is using PayPal to keep the project websites, cvs, et al. bandwidth paid for, I'm at a loss to find any alternatives. Anyone else?
Robbed? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Robbed?-Blind trust. (Score:3, Insightful)
No, see, YOU put the locks on your place. The landlord made you put a lock on there, but you chose the lock. You decided if it was a stainless-steel master lock, or one of those crappy cord-looking bike locks that could be cut through with a pair of grade-school safety scissors. Paypal doesn't set your password, YOU DO.
In all seriousness, isn't the security of a password still sacred? I mean, you can log in to any server, anywhere, with nothing more than an absconded password; do you really expect Paypal to do more than that?
No Recourse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now of course, PayPal SHOULD have to be a bank to do what they do and should be responsible for the money entrusted to them that they allowed to be stolen, but just because they aren't I don't see how that is the end of it.
Re:No Recourse? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well... (Score:5, Informative)
One has to wonder if the Abi folks knew about PayPal's failings ahead of time. If so, then had they looked into other ways of obtaining donations? That is to say, if the Abi folks are saying "Look, we knew that PayPal sucked and was insecure, but we used them anyway, so please write them to tell them how much they suck" then it's a little harder to take their complaint seriously.
I've used PayPal for auction stuff. I was fortunate enough to get payments mostly through PayPal from a large USENET auction I held a while ago. But once that big chuck of money was in there (we're talking less than $1k) I had them cut me a check and send it to me so I could put the money somewhere I trusted...a real bank! Even now, I never keep more in the account than I could bear to lose, should something go wrong.
That the Abi folks weren't taking better care of their money hardly seems like PayPal's fault. Many people know PayPal has been difficult to deal with...it's no big secret and it's even been talked about on
I don't want to defend PayPal too much here. They're clearly sleazy sometimes (if not all the time). But that doesn't absolve the Abi folks from being more careful with their benefactors' cash.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)
What the AbiWord folks think of PayPal should have absolutely no bearing on PayPal's liability in this theft. PayPal is bound to provide a certain service, and should be responsible enough to remedy this situation, if only because required by law.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Monopolies are a drag (Score:2, Interesting)
So, what are my choices (that's what we love to jump up and down about having)? Are there other online aucctions that even have a chance of being as large as eBay? Or other payment methods? I see the whole PayPal-as-part-of-Ebay, so much like the Microsoft having become the defacto desktop and then pushing it's web browser and subsequent internet policies on everyone.
How was it stolen? (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me that if the system is that insecure, the perps could have found something more lucrative to rob than the Abiword tip jar. I'm sure there are power sellers on ebay that do more business in a week than the tip jar sees in a year.
Perhaps his fund password was something like "abiword" or he responded to a scam e-mail...
Reading the complete post, I see "...Their silence implies to me that they are treating this matter as if I got mugged on the street, rather than as if someone walked into their bank and withdrew my money without my consent."
So it sounds as if it was not a hole but rather an error on Dom's part. I look forward to reading more about this to find out just how this happened.
Re:How was it stolen? (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, isn't the purpetrator's name tagged to the transaction? You have to have a valid bank account to move funds out of your PayPal account.. wouldn't it just make it that much harder to hide from the authorities if you broke in to someone's account and moved stuff over?
This reminds me of when lowendmac [lowendmac.com] got hit last month (earlier this month.. something like that). It's unfortunate PayPal has "critical mass" or whathaveyou. You'd think that someone big would care, but they can't even be bothered to work with all banks.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Done and Done... (Score:5, Interesting)
Even if they do outsource their support to India, I'd bet they keep some sort of stats about emails and the issues covered...maybe if enough people complain and cancel their accounts someone will listen...unlikely but it's worth a hope.
-tcp
I'll cancel my PayPal account... (Score:5, Insightful)
I do notice that the referenced note is long on inuendo and short on facts, and that in itself makes me suspicious.
It's not news, stuff like that is usual with PP (Score:3, Informative)
I saw previous posters say they closed their accounts after they found out about AbiWord theft, I closed my account as soon as I've read through posts on the site above.
Question Regarding Paypal Fees vs. Greed (Score:5, Insightful)
How much money should someone be allowing to accumulate in a Paypal "donation" account? I ask because I think that anyone who lets the account grow too much (like beyond $100 or one transaction, whichever is greater) is begging for trouble. I know that there are transaction fees when you take money out of the account, so were the Abiword people being cheap by not withdrawing earlier?
For example, if there is a 2.9%+$0.30 charge to receive $100 from the account (see Paypal [paypal.com] for details), that would be a charge of $3.20 leaving $96.80 in the check I assume they would send out. Even at $50, you're looking at $2.25 with $47.75 of actual money coming at you.
Clearly, were I running the deal I wouldn't be leaving money in this "fund" and I think that Mr. Lachowicz was a damned fool to do so, whether Paypal is generally believed to be a security risk or not.
Frankly, I have more sympathy for someone who loses $30 or $40 from their Paypal account because of this kind of fraud than I do in this case. Someone who loses such a small amount of money could have had some valid reason to have the money in their. Someone who leaves $800 sitting around, doing nothing (savings account interest rates are small, but Paypal interest rates, well, are nonexistant), probably needs a lesson taught to them.
Blaming Paypal alone would be a mistake.
Paypal: Excellent Service (until you need help) (Score:5, Informative)
Paypals complaint resolution works like this:
File complaint
Paypal emails other party on your behalf
Paypal receives no response for other party after X number of days(duh)
Paypal deems your money unrecoverable (sorry)
Filed fraud w/ my CC company
CC company investigates (and when they finally stop laughing) remove charge from my CC (thank you!)
Recieve nastygram from PayPal for not initiating the charge back through Paypal for the 10 dollar fee instead of the free service my CC provides.. (dick heads!)
Luckily my CC company came through with no problem. But I was scammed on a PS2 system on Ebay (long story) the sad part is that there were about 20 of us that lost out on the ebay thing. A couple of them used paypal and got nothing! and since they didn't use a CC (which paypal would rather u use a straight bank transfer) they got screwed. Got nothing back. Sad.
Slashdot Subscriptions (Score:5, Insightful)
To Close Your Account (Score:5, Informative)
Then send them an e-mail [paypal.com] explaining why. I'm going to now.
P.S. It seems to me the seller of the camera/PDA must have mailed the thing somewhere. Get that address. Contact local police. Contact EBay's fraud division. ETC. I'd be surprised if this money cannot be recovered. In the meantime, I hope Abiword is busy setting up a C2it [c2it.com] account.
PayPal is unregulated.. treat it that way.. (Score:5, Insightful)
But, I'm not going to cancel my PayPal account over this just yet. I've had the account since the service began (remember when it was for Palm Pilots?). Never had a problem. I treat PayPal with kid gloves because they are not regulated the same way banks are (and they shouldn't be: they are a payment service, not a full-service bank), and they are a huge hacker's target.
Here what I do with my PayPal account (I use it quite a bit on eBay for buying and selling):
1) Set up a separate bank account for PayPal. I have a money market fund whose sole purpose in life is to transfer money between paypal and my regular savings account. I transfer the money out at least once a month or so.
2) never give PayPal any more information than they need. Give them one credit card (preferably exclusive to PayPal with a PO box billing address). Don't sign up for the piss-ant Money Market fund that requires giving them your Social Security Number. No extra emails, phone numbers, or mailing addresses. Change password often.
3) NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES leave a balance in your PayPal account. Because it's PayPal's money, not yours, until you take it out (remember, it's not a bank). Withdraw immediately. Even if you need to pay for an auction later, use your bank/credit card to pay for it. (I use a Citibank card that gives a cash back bonus, so I actually get a small benefit from doing this.)
4) If they send you a free Debit card, cancel it. Don't sign up for the credit card either.
You have to keep in mind also, PayPal can freeze your money at any time. All that has to happen is someone file a complaint against you. They can lock your account. They can do various silly things.
I don't want to "blame the victim", but if your money is not in the PayPal account, it can't be stolen. And if there's a fraudulent charge on your credit card, it can be taken care of with a signed affidavit, or maybe just a letter, like any problem with your card. Your card has consumer protection laws associated with it, your PayPal account doesn't.
I did have one of my other cards stolen once and used on PayPal (had nothing to do with my paypal account, the perp opened his own). I wrote them and received a response and an affidavit to fill out, the next day. In fact, all my PayPal customer service mails have been answered the next day. (I have a "premier" / "merchant rate" account, which gets better treatment, ymmv).
By this point, with all the horror stories out there, I'm surprised anyone would keep a balance in their PayPal account.
Put responsibility where it belongs (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit. How about "I had an insecure password", or "I responded to one of those emails from a scammer that claimed to be PayPal", or "Another system I use was compromised and I stupidly use the same password everywhere" instead?
I'm gonna guess one of those scenarios is more likely than any security failing on PayPal's part. Certainly if there was a security hole in PayPal itself, there are much bigger fish to go after -- any of eBay's Power Sellers, for instance, probably have much more than $500 or so in their accounts at any given moment.
Re:Put responsibility where it belongs (Score:5, Informative)
I don't really blame PayPal for my fund being robbed. I do blame PayPal for not responding to my customer support emails. This is the crux of my complaint.
All I asked for was an address of my grievance. I'd be pleased if they acknowledged my existence as a member of this planet. But they don't, and in my opinion, it would be the least that they could do to keep a customer happy, nevermind their legal obligations.
Paypal proclaims to be a trusted third party, collecting, holding, and disbursing your money as only you see fit. My money was disbursed from their coffers without my permission. This is robbery. No, Paypal did not rob me, someone else did. But Paypal as a trusted third party is responsible for providing certain safeguards to make sure that they're not duped too easily. And if someone tells them that they've been duped, they have an obligation to at least investigate my charge. Or at least they should.
Paypal is a company that manages and holds others property on behalf of them. As such, they are duty-bound to protect those properties. There are laws for companies that do this, and names for businesses that do this. Namely, they're called banks. As such, my money should be protected under laws and statutues similar to FDIC. It is not. Am I stupid for using PayPal? Maybe. Shame on me.
Now, if PayPal had merely responded saying "We're investigating this charge" *EVEN* if they came back saying that my charge had no merit, I would not have sent this email. I refer you to these quotes from paypal's own site:
"PayPal will investigate your complaint and attempt to recover any funds you are owed. You will be entitled to the return of any funds PayPal is able to collect on your behalf. However, fund recovery is not guaranteed."
Please read:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen
and
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bi
This inaction when dealing with my funds pisses this one customer off. And, IMO, rightly so.
Dom
Paypal is not considered a bank... (Score:5, Informative)
Pay Pal is sleazy (Score:5, Interesting)
The delay was beyond any point of being able to pretend that they actually made any effort to resolve the situation. It was in fact more than 10 days after we first contacted them before they would even open what they call an "investigation". They claim that their procedures are set up to combat fraud, but it's just a way of establishing deniability. That is, they pretend that they have no intention whatever of stringing me along as long as they can, while they collect interest on my money. (And no, they never did offer any compensation for the lost interest, let alone the many hours we were forced to spend pursuing them, to get our money back.)
You think mine is an isolated case? It is by no means. Just do a web search for paypal+complaint. See all the distressed people. See the lawsuits.
It's a transparent scam: by locking up the money of only a certain percentage of their customers, and treating the rest reasonably well, the people who claim that Pay Pal engages in a pattern of sleazy misconduct will never be believed, because they will always be outnumbered by customers who have never had a problem.
That doesn't make it right.
A Possible Alternative to PayPal (Score:4, Informative)
The only apparent drawback of the program is that you can only transfer funds from one NetSpend account to another, so of course, your buyers/contributers need to have a card themselves... Considering that the fee is extremely low, and the fact that NetSpend is on the BBB, they seem a bit more straightforward than PayPal... Also, they don't need to pass any credit application procedures, or open a bank account (unlike secured credit cards), it can be extremely simple to obtain.
Another added bonus is that the credit card acts as a secondary form of ID...
Paypal sucks, Abiword doesn't so... (Score:4, Informative)
Heck, if some nimwit in NYC can raise 20k to help pay off their credit card bill from donations, surely at least $600 can be raised to help abiword? Hell, maybe we can get some of that infamous Slashdot effect directed towards kicking a buck to their back account.
-Bill
Re:Paypal sucks, Abiword doesn't so... (Score:3, Informative)
Ummm, because that would require me to setup a PayPal account?
I think I'll wait until they get a better donation service provider. What about c2it [c2it.com], which is run by CitiBANK (I stress the bank part).
Paypal and their phone support (Score:3, Informative)
The prices are like a form of sales tax, but at least they are better than c2it, western union, or bank wire. Checks would be cheaper in the US, but also less convientent. Not sure checks from out of the country would work.
Overall I am just going to require payments be charge + paypal sales tax. It makes me wonder if the government is going to get especially upset with ebay/paypal now they they have found a way to virtually collect a sales tax on the internet.
I am definitely use the methods mentioned above to protect myself and look for something better. So far I haven't found anything as cheap online.
My wife's horror story... (Score:5, Informative)
Sure enough Paypal processed the payment to some individual for $6,009. Wife freaks. Writes to paypal, they tell her tough shit, they can't do a thing about it, please ensure she has money in her accounts to fund the transaction.
So the wife cancels her credit card, talks to bank to make sure they will bounce the draft, etc...
Sure enough, next day, a draft for over six grand bounces, first $29 bank bounce charge fee. Pay pal autowrites her a nastygram saying to fund the account, that she MUST fund the account due to her paypal user agreement and they will try again in two days. Wife writes back, DON'T TRY AGAIN. Again, they say there is nothing they can do about it.
Again, another bounce, another $29 fee from bank. Finally, paypal gives up.
Some tips for all that she uses that saved her....
Like another posted said earlier, Paypal is like playing the stock market, don't put in what you can't afford to lose. Just in her case, it looked like she was going to lose much more than that for a while there.
The money belongs to PAYPAL! (Score:4, Insightful)
The money belongs to PAYPAL! So the theft was from PAYPAL, not ABIWORD. So it's PAYPAL that should be calling up the FBI. Why haven't they? Because maybe they'd end up being investigated for their shoddy business practices.
Some Useful analogies (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, I would probably feel safer giving my money to a backwoods county fair carney. Least I can try to kick his ass if he loses it, and would have some knowlege of who stole it from him, if he were robbed.
Screw Paypal, contact Ebay (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't even bother with Paypal customer service, they have been stonewalling everyone for years. Try talking to Ebay customer service,... and try to talkyou way up to amore senior Manager or someone else who has the authority to call up the Paypal losers and demand "whats going on here?" Hopefully Ebay doesn't want to risk its reputation going gown the tubes as quickly as Paypal's did a few years back.
Did they miss the obvious solution (Score:4, Informative)
Then, was this money left in the Paypal account, or was paypal just used as a conduit to rip off the bank?
I have to agree with a lot of others, who say to not leave much money in the account. There's just no upside, unless they were saving up to pay a seller who wouldn't take credit card payments.
Finally, to further protect yourself if you need to se Paypal: 1) sweep your account daily, 2) contact your bank and tell them to not allow transfers to Paypal, or 3) attach a bank account to Paypal that has a low balance.
Paypal is not a bank, they don't claim to be. And you can sue Paypal, as a judge ruled their arbitration process was unreasonable [com.com], more or less.
Good luck recovering those funds. Go after the transaction endusers, as they have some liability here for receiving stolen goods/ property.
Whom do you serve? (Score:5, Insightful)
The bank offers the service of holding your money in a safe location so that you don't have to worry about losing it. The bank also provides money services that require a certain amount of trust - chequing, lines of credit, etc. You pay the bank for these services.
On the other hand, you are providing the bank a service too. You allow them to use your money (for many reasons) and, in exchange, the bank pays you for this service in interest (although, not very well).
A bank requires trust not only from those who bank with them but also with those third parties who interact with customers of the bank. A cheque (and credit cards, too) only works if everyone trusts that the bank system works (sure, you can overdraft on a cheque, but the bank will report that).
PayPal _is_ a bank by definition. They can skirt around the issue as much as they want to, but they are a bank. More importantly, they are a (or should be a) trust. That is, everyone _trusts_ that PayPal is honest to the core - that you can trust them to hold your money and provide the services that they offer in a legitatmite and honest way.
They are not a savings bank, however, and should not be required to fall under the same laws as a savings bank. They are not (should not) be required to provide insurance on deposits and they should be allowed to verify all transfers and 'money movement' at their discretion.
The abiword theft doesn't make sense - did this person steal a password or something? Did (s)he compromise the PayPal system in some way? If the former is true, PayPal would not, necessarily, be liable - the person who stole the password would be. If, however, there was a security compromise, then PayPal should be accountable for the money - they should put the money back and sue the thief.
--
I want to touch on something that I've read alot on sites like paypalsucks - the issue of PayPal "double-dipping" and taking funds without permission to settle accounts.
IF YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO AUTHORIZE ANY COMPANY TO DIRECTLY WITHDRAWL / DEBIT MONEY FROM ANY OF YOUR ACCOUNTS THEN YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE.
Don't be so fucking stupid and ignorant as to give _ANY_ company the keys to your accounts. So what if you have to enter your credit card # on each transaction? Or send a cheque instead of allowing them to directly withdrawl from any bank account. Don't get me wrong, if PayPal takes your money without authorization then it's still wrong on their part - you just helped it along. By not authorizing them to save your information you catch them in a much tighter corner.
In the end, it's all about trust. If enough people stop trusting them then they will either fold up or mandate themselves under the same laws that control the banks.
Paypal is unsafe! (Score:3, Informative)
Do your research. I never donate if it's a paypal tip jar because of things like this [paypalwarning.com] and this [nopaypal.com]. Paypal based donations are a disaster waiting to happen.
Re:Pay Pal (Score:2)
Re:Pay Pal (Score:2)
Negligence (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Questions? (Score:5, Informative)
1. No, you shouldn't be worried about it, BUT you shouldn't be giving Paypal your bank account information. You should only be dealing with Paypal on the basis of a bank-issued credit (not debit) card.
2. If you have more than $50 in Paypal, you should take it out immediately. You shouldn't keep a balance with Paypal. If someone buys something from you and the money goes to Paypal, just take it out ASAP (though if they are small transactions, for convenience you might want to wait until you are up to $50 or so).
3. There are indeed viable alternatives to Paypal. One example is Bidpay [bidpay.com] from Western Union. There's no account balance, you simply buy a Western Union money order (online, of course) and they send confirmation to the seller who can then be assured that their money is on the way. Each transaction is its own beast and nobody leaves any money hanging with them. Some of the above messages contain other alternatives.
4. I don't know if Paypal has to change. I think the consumer perception of them is the problem. Too many people think of them as a bank when they clearly are not. They can't even be confused with a bank if people would simply maintain ZERO balances with them and use them purely as the money middleperson as they were originally intended.
Of course, Paypal has a tendency to foster the impression that they're a bank, so their marketing can take some blame as well.
It's all about education. If somebody isn't giving you interest on money they're holding for you or isn't federally insured - i.e. credit unions, banks, savings and loans - you really need to either move your money elsewhere or, as in my case, SPEND IT.