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Slashback

Slashback: Reconciliation, Passportation, Inflation 130

Tonight, Slashback brings you good news on the Gnome Front, news that's either sobering or annoying on the Passport patrol, and a very useful checklist for those caught outside, simulating space travel, and pretty much alone.

Reconciliation among comics and gnomes. CaptainCarrot writes: "In today's Penny Arcade newspost, Tycho continues the discussion on Scott McCloud's piece on micropayments. He has moderated his tone considerably from his original rant on the subject, and offered his apologies for, as he puts it, having misjudged McCloud. During their phone conversations, the two apparently came to some meeting of the minds. Here's yesterdays Slashback on the topic, and the two prior relevant discussions."

On a similar note, in response to the recent story on Gnome losing its 2.0 package maintainer, an Anonymous Coward wrote:"Here's the first chapter in the rest of the story. In short, the guy who quit, returned."

Perhaps they'll be offering student visas. Mike Schiraldi writes: "MSDN users aren't the only ones who have to use Passport. When i bought a Dell computer this January, it came with a "free" (i.e. included in the price of the machine) year of MSN. I went to set up POP, and found out that MSN no longer supports POP for new subscribers. We have to use a secret Passport protocol that only the new Outlook Express can speak. I fought with customer service, and spoke with many levels of tech support, and believe me, they're not budging."

Is this because a Real Doll would be too heavy? Hanford writes: "Looks like this checklist for a simulated Mars mission includes a few comforts from Earth. Check out the last two items. Remember this is from nasa.gov :)"

And since you won't be on camera nearly as much as the astronauts in the various earth-orbiting devices are, this might be more practical than aloft. Remember those vinyl patches, too.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Slashback: Reconciliation, Passportation,

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward
    GNOME troubles are not over. Recently, John Barrow resigned from the GNOME community. Also recently, we learned that Red Hat is working on a light-weight component system called the Hub to replace Bonobo. Ximian is not amused, let me tell you. This behind the scenes infighting is what led to the resignation that was highly publicized but never properly explained here.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 28, 2001 @06:49PM (#121020)
    ... and the real story is this:

    We have 3 kinds of MSN:

    1. Just plain old MSN
    2. DellNet by MSN
    3. Compaq.net by MSN

    Every user of any of them starts off with a POP3 email account, MSN version 5.4 and lower uses POP3, MSN version 6.0 and higher (MSN Explorer, which DellNet users get installed on the system) will convert the POP3 account to web based (hotmail basically) if the user logs into his account through the software.

    ALL web based email accounts CAN BE ROLLED BACK TO POP3 but ONLY over the phone by technical support, however, we are *not allowed* to do it for anyone who has never used 5.4 or an earlier version of the software.

    This is how you get your account rolled back:
    Call up tech support, tell them you were using 5.0 of the software and were using pop3 email but installed the MSN Explorer and didn't like it. Say you want to go back to pop3 and you saw, (these are the magic words right here) on support services, that if you called they can roll it back, if they ask you if you have DellNet by MSN say *no* and they will roll it back to pop3.
  • So get a yahoomail account. Or hotmail.
  • hmm interesting.

    I've been programming the Express 2000 WebStorage, which uses WebDav among other things. I don't think the open source community sees what is coming at them this time. Workflow Designer, WebStorage, folders as automatical page builders, and other things. Ximian may be looking at the wrong place, we may not need an Outlook clone as much as we need an Exchange clone.

    We'll see. Now I get to do the same thing in PHP and I'll see how they both stand up. Right now Exchange is kicking our tails with this problem and that. Its a good idea in theory, and it is its first iteration.



    ~^~~^~^^~~^
  • Well, I might have believed you had I not just read the gnome-2-0-list and seen that the hub issue isn't nearly what you make it out to be. A couple of months ago Havoc did some brainstorming with some other people about a hypothetical component system known as "the hub" to unify linux. The paper was never released to the public, and was only circulated to a couple other developers to get their insight to see if it was actually a good idea or not.

    Here is a link to havoc's explanation:

    http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-2-0-list/2001 -June/msg00311.html [gnome.org]

    If you read the next message in that thread, you'll notice that the person Havoc is refering to agreed he was acting paranoid.

    Nothing to see here. Move Along.
  • I was at apachecon in march and Greig Stein (author of mod_dav for apache) said that Microsoft is actually using the web dav protocal in place of SMTP and POP in Outlook express for Hotmail.

    Maybe MSN is moving to this style of accessing mail. I guess by using dav on the servers the can handle alot more users easier.

    He also said that a MS dude even posted what URL to use to fetch the mail on the mod_dav list. I thought it was pretty cool to see that MS was actaully using open protocals, albeit in a weird way (=
  • by ocie ( 6659 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @04:48PM (#121025) Homepage
    ten packs of chewing gum
    one revolver
    four nylons
    one standard issue prophelactic

    A fella' could have a good time on Mars with all this stuff!
  • Try http://www.freewaytech.com. Fully customizable, and just about the cheapest prices you can get (note: I've never bought from them).
  • Many free OS users don't want to build their own system. I used to build boxen myself, but now I simply don't have the time for it.

    I like being able to give someone my credit card number and get an assembled, configured machine in return. I save money that way, because my time is money. Even more important, when something breaks, I call the vendor and they fix it. I save even more money that way.

    Too bad VA is leaving the hardware business. I'll have to go with Dell or IBM or one of those other vendors that "sort of" supports linux, on some of their machines.
  • Tell me how you are going to do integration, certification and testing in a few hours?

    I've built my share of PCs from parts, but I realize that a reputable pre-built machine has value added in the engineering and testing performed by the manufacturer. I don't have to worry about whether the components are compatible with each other and the operating system. There is a single point-of-contact for maintenance, technical support, software/firmware updates and parts.

  • Because Microsoft products don't run on anything but i686 architecture machines,

    You need to get your facts straight. I can get Microsoft Internet Explorer for Solaris, and it works just fine.

  • However, MSN hasn't made their isp business based on the "closed circuit" model, previously supporting (and still supporting for old customers) the standard: pop. The fact that they are moving *away* from an open standard to a closed one, and that they are one of the largest isps, is definite and legitimate cause for concern and/or outcry. OTOH, if they had started out "AOL-like", this *wouldn't* have even made it to a slashback, because it wouldn't be news.

    HTH,
  • For any potential Mars mission no one who "needs" booze and blow-up dolls would be selected. Luxury items will certianly be included, however, since the crew will have to stay sane, comfortable, and amicable on the 3+ years the mission would take.

    I don't know as I'd consider any adult in the prime of their life who could go 3+ years without sexual release to be particularly sane. Or were you just thinking they'd send an equal balance of the sexes so that no one needs any sex toys?

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • As seen in a post yesterday, although I haven't used them yet: www.pogolinux.com [pogolinux.com]

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • Hmm. And to think, it was NASA that brought us such useful substances as teflon, which makes for easy-clean, non-stick surfaces...

    No, no no NO NO NO! Teflon (PTFE) was not invented by NASA. Teflon was not even invented by someone else for the space program. Teflon was "invented" by accident at DuPont in 1938

    (to be truly anal, I should be using the ® mark after Teflon, but I'm not. Neener-neener-neener.)

    --

  • I'm sitting here wondering how many people actually know where that quote came from ;)

    I'm surprised you didn't use the whole list. Hehehehe.

    "We gotta get us one of them Doomsday machines."

    =)
  • Yeah, i don't use their crappy email, just their dialup. But the reason i submitted the story is that it shows how Microsoft can shove .NET down consumers' throats whether it makes their lives better or not. And it's yet another example of how they leverage one monopoly to gain another.

    Monopoly on OS -> They can dictate terms to OEMs -> People who buy computers find a year of MSN bundled with them

    Monopoly on OS -> They can make the system pre-configured to guide the user right to MSN, while keeping all other icons, like AOL, off the desktop

    Next come instant messaging and multimedia. I say MS controls both by this time next year.

    --

  • Main Entry: inebriety [m-w.com]
    Pronunciation: "i-ni-'brI-&-tE
    Function: noun
    Etymology: probably blend of inebriation and ebriety drunkenness
    Date: 1801
    : the state of being inebriated : DRUNKENNESS
  • Funny, you think that on a real mission they'd want to conserve oxygen, not waste it on those dolls...
    NASA will soon anounce its new vinyl O2 storage tanks available in fun (erotic) new shapes.

    They're not a waste they're a storage system.

  • Actually NASA had nothing to do with popularizing the use of teflon (PTFE). Dupont had discovered it in the late 1930s but the US Government classified it during WWII because it was used to coat the interior of pipes used in gaseous uranium separation for the Manhattan project. For building an atomic bomb you only want one of the uranium isotopes, and the way that the Manhattan project separated it was by turning the uranium into a gas, by reacting it with fluoride. The problem is that uranium hexafluoride is extremely reactive and would erode through steel pipe, so the pipes were lined with teflon to prevent this.

    In the 1960s a french chemist independently rediscovered teflon (PTFE) and sold it to a french company who produced pots and pans for use as a non-stick coating. Rumor is that the US government flipped when they discovered that their top secret material for uranium processing was being sold on frying pans in the local Sears.
  • It wasn't an accedent 444444 was taken

  • if you notice he was replying to the comment that this was no different to AOL but AOL gives you the choice to use a web browser
  • Should mod up that comment as "Funny" since the Passport required by MSN is essentially a hotmail.com account!

    The whole reason the new MSN doesnt support POP3 is because the MSN mail system has been migrated to the Hotmail backend that manipulates the email over an HTTP interface.

    They're simply consolidating the mail services the provide to their customers into one solution rather than several.
  • Heh. It'd be really useful information like

    "Your current location is N47d13m43.0211s E121d2m11.9823s
    ALT 78 000 000 km."
  • Yeah, read the fine print then before you spend $$!

    maybe OT:
    I recently had an offer from my bank to do internetbanking. I read the fine print and I found out that they didn't support Mozilla (not even for Windows). I wrote them back:

    I'm sorry but I'm not in the possession of a Windows computer nor am I able to use one. I therefore regret that I can't use [internetservice].

    Unfortunately (because of security and financial reasons) I cannot upgrade to Windows OS now or in the future.

    I would like to see support for my browser and operating system (Mozilla/Linux). They support SSL as mentioned on your website so it should be possible. Actually I don't see the problem of not supporting Mozilla by ABN-Amro in the first place.

    Internetbanking certainly is something that I want to work with. If ABN-Amro would not support this and another bank would this would be a reason for me to join the other bank after a while. I really hope that I can stay a client because I joined this bank because it was client-friendly. I hope I won't have to change my mind, s. yours....

    I think this is a way of handling things concrete but resolute. Maybe the guy shouldn't have bought the computer and email them why.
  • NT on AXP was a promising project. Digital did a lot of good work on the FX!32 x86 emu stuff. Unfortunately, it was not ready, it got pushed out, and it was a poor deployment platform.

    Further, the partnership between Digital (later Compaq) and M$ was problematic... Digital was doing a good chunk of the porting work - M$ sent them code modifications, they got the code mods to work on AXP. Apparently there was an unmanageable amount of code churn in the base NT system.

    Eventually, both companies decided the project wasn't worth the hassle, given the decidedly lacklustre sales and interest.

    I worked with NT-AXP for about a year. We then moved those machinesw to Tru64 (shitty answer, I know, but better than NT-AXP).
  • That doens't mean they aren't, in some sense, con artists. If you were enticed into getting an account at Bank MacroShaft by their offer of a free coffee machine, only to find out that the coffee machine requires special non-standard filters only available from some folks that they happen to do business with, you'd be pretty cheesed off, and you might have a good case for getting money back etc etc.

    Fetchmail is essential, but its existence doesn't mean the deal isn't a con, unless they are PAYING to support fetchmail's development and offering it as a solution for accessing their mail server.



    Boss of nothin. Big deal.
    Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.

  • That's the great thing about Windows XP, as soon as you figure out one protocol, they'll change it and upgrade all the users instantly. You'll never be able to stay on top of it!
  • by oni ( 41625 )
    Where does SPA fit into this? My unterstanding was that they would only allow POP if authenticated through SPA - which means you have to use some flavor of outlook.

    It would be great if they allowed pure POP3 but I can't believe it.
  • The difference is, AOL has *never* supported email thru anything but their own client, and I gather MSN has recently *changed* things so POP mail is no more. How would you like it if your ISP did that to you?

    I can tell you how I'd react -- I'd find a different ISP, or go back to getting *all* my mail thru our BBS.

  • Fun stuff (Kites, Blow Up Dolls) N Optional

    If they had ever seen the Ugly Kid Joe video "(I Hate) Everything about You", they would know that you can use a blow up doll as a kite. Leave the kite behind and make room for those 2 liters of alcohol!

  • by bravehamster ( 44836 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:31PM (#121050) Homepage Journal
    We should be sending Marines there and oil rig miners- people who are used to very extreme conditions and will relish the hardship and use it as an incentive to change the red planet to something habitable for human life.

    We shouldnt be sending people who'll need their booze and blowup dolls by any means.

    If you had ever met any Marines or oil rig miners you would know that those two sentences are self-contradictory.

  • If you don't like the service ... then don't use their service.

    I agree. However, you missed the point. The whole reason he's miffed is that he paid for something and didn't get what he expected. Whether his expectations were created by actual advertisement or were his own idea is not presented here.

    Either way, he bought a Windows PC that came with a bundle of crudware. He should have expected to pay for something he didn't want.

    --
    SecretAsianMan (54.5% Slashdot pure)
  • <p><tt> "People shouldn't hate microsoft..."

    Well guess what buddy, I not gonna do what you're suggesting I do... you sound like Micro$haft running in here ordering people around.

    I hate Micro$haft, and I'm not going to hide my hatred of Micro$haft. I will do what I please, and that includes any and every irrational act based on my hatred of all things Micro$haft.

    Put that in your suggestion box.

  • Once again, Microsoft wants to do services that only work with Microsoft software. POP is simple and efficient. If they wanted to increase security, they could just have upgraded to APOP or Imap. Almost all clients support these protocols.
    But they are somewhat shooting themselves in the foot. Not every Windows users wants (or is able) to upgrade Outlook. I guess their hotline will get a lot of calls, and they may go back to some standard protocol then.

    -- Pure FTP server [pureftpd.org] - Upgrade your FTP server to something simple and secure.
  • And if that one solution was a greatest common denominator instead of the worst piece of crap that they think they can foist off on the average consumer, that would be great. But it isn't, so it's not.

    Bobby Martin aka Wurp
    Cosm Development Team


  • Its not that complicated folks

    It's simplistic, even! :P

    - - - - -
  • From WHERE exactly can I buy those machines please ?

    Check out the Dell Poweredge 300SC. [dell.com] I just bought one (they were $100 cheaper last month) and I am really happy with it. All told, including tax, shipping, and one gig of RAM from Crucial, I spent $1120 for a P3/800, 40G IDE disk, and that sleek black case that I can I completely take apart without a screwdriver.

    And there's no Microsoft tax.


    --
  • Agent does work with MSN SPA. Eudora doesnt support MSN SPA however which is a shame cuz agent doesnt support multiple accounts like eudora does...
  • >Reasonable (and legal!) quantities of food items may be brought along for personal use or sharing.

    I'm just wondering one thing here: Could I bring some space-cake(both for personal use and for sharing)? it's illegal in the US... but not everywhere. And I guess getting the munchies is a big nono on a mission to mars

    //rdj
  • by yellowstone ( 62484 ) on Friday June 29, 2001 @05:09AM (#121059) Homepage Journal
    When i bought a Dell computer this January
    There's your mistake. You bought pre-packaged computer. Any time you do that, you get a lot of extra "free" stuff (where "free" means the cost of it is rolled into the base price).

    I've bought (the parts for) my last two machines at Computer Renassance [compren.com] (that's compren.com for the url/spelling challenged). I put together the hardware I wanted at the price I wanted to pay, and didn't buy any software I didn't want.

    I have no connection with them except as a satisfied customer.
    --

  • It still isn't news worthy of an outcry. MSN, whether you like it or not, is yet another company exercising control over a computer system THEY own. How they've done it up until now is totally irrelevant. The fact that they are owned by Microsoft also does not make it news, nor make it worthy of an outcry.

    If you are an MSN customer and you don't like this, you have two options, 1) move to another ISP, or 2) start your own damned ISP (and then we'll see how you feel about others telling you how to run equipment you own).
  • My question is why should people hate Microsoft at all? I think they should just avoid them. If enough people do this, Microsoft will go away by itself...
  • > ... server-class machine (available for under $1000) ... saving $800 ...

    From WHERE exactly can I buy those machines please ? I'd like to get - like - a dozen of those server-class machines with no O/S on them. Today. Now. While supplies last.

    --
  • I think a more accurate analogy would be:

    If your computer came with (i.e. you paid for) a year's supply of dog food, but they waited for your check to clear and then told you that you have to take their dog that shits on your rug in order to get the food, would you expect any recourse?

    I would.

    -Peter

  • "dont' buy products from them indirectly"

    You do realize that's next-to-impossible sometimes :)
  • Remember this is from nasa.gov

    Not *just* NASA. It's on a gov't site, but the other project involved is FMARS, which is private. It isn't all tax dollars at work, so I suppose that justifies the departure from the usual NASA drollness. Non-profits can't afford not to have a sense of humor.

    I think what's interesting are the shotgun classes. :-)

    FMARS is the Flashline Mars Analog Research Station [marssociety.org], which is a project of The Mars Society [marssociety.org] (Flashline [flashline.com] is the name sponsor for the mission). It is a simulated Mars base. There is an article about it in the print version of this month's Scientific American.

    This is one of The Mars Society's projects for establishing a human presence on Mars. There will be a series of these simulated bases placed in analogous Mars environments throughout the world. The first is on Devon Island in the Canadian Arctic. The next will be placed in the American Southwest. Currently it is on exhibit at the Kennedy Space Center Visitors' Center. It will begin its field season this September in the desert.

    Additionally, The Mars Society has a prototype pressurized Mars rover program. It also has a trust fund established to raise money for a privately funded mission to establish a permanent presence on Mars. It may take a century or two of saving, but The Mars Society will *do* it.

  • Hehe, Dude, you from Jersey or somthing?

  • If you buy a brand name computer you're going to get some odious shit with it. Be it inferior hardware, software bundles you'll never use or internet service you don't want, they're going to try to stick you with some shit and you're going to pay more for it.

    If you want to do Linux or any other non-monopoly OS, you'll want to build yourself. Yes yes, I know, you don't want to learn how to build a computer. So get your geekly friend to do it for you. Many of them are happy to do it for just the cost of the hardware because it gives them a chance to show off. If you really dig it, get them to teach you how to go about it. It isn't that hard and once you've lost your fear that you'll destroy your expensive hardware, you've conquered the hardest part.

    Don't have a geekly friend? Come on! You read Slashdot! Don't lie to me, now...

  • I'll grant you, it's a lot harder. I've been wanting to build a wearable for a while now but I've been waiting for the HMD technology to improve a bit. If I need a laptop in the mean time, I believe I can get IBM to bundle Linux on one for me.
  • by BierGuzzl ( 92635 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:33PM (#121069)
    Reconciliation makes the news! :) I'm glad to see some good vibes going around.
  • I agree, even though on a technical note Windows NT is supported on Alpha too.

    Forget Arthur C. Clarke, this is the real 2001:
    Oh my God! It's Full Of SPAM!

    - Steeltoe
  • I really thought this was real, until I saw the Babbage CPU model [realhamster.com].. Guess not :-( Also, they didn't mention if the hair is regrowable. What do you do with it the first time you shave it? Seems like a more expensive proposition to me..

    - Steeltoe
  • A friend of mine got sick of our university's [letu.edu] clunky email server, so he figured out (ok, reverse engineered) the HTTPMail protocol that Hotmail uses. He wrote a proxy server [sourceforge.net], initially in perl, and more recently in ruby [ruby-lang.org], which allows you to point your mail client at your local machine and it will proxy requests to the HTTPmail server (i.e., Hotmail). It's OSS and hosted on SourceForge. Give it a try. It beats whining on /. about not being about to use POP3.
  • don't like how the u.s. government scans your passport upon entering the country at a controlled access point to see if you've filed a tax return recently? just get a passport from another country. I hear the Cayman Islands will let you become a "citizen" as long as you have enough money to take care of yourself...

    oh, this is about microsoft's passport system? uhm, same thing applies, just get a different passport (account) w/ a different provider (isp).

    ---

  • This can definitely be called monopolist tieing if they are using their market force to pressure OEMs into 'buying' the free year of MSN with every machine. This is much like the Microsoft situation:

    You buy the machine, you get the service for free AND it is conspicuous on the desktop. If y ou want anything else, you don't just have to pay for it -- you have to hunt it down, and install it.

    If you use their service for a year, by the time you have to renew, you have a choice of learning new software (and possibly loosing easy access to your old email and email addresses, etc.) or just paying the piper and getting on with life.

    Most newbies are just going to stay with Microsoft.

    And if you do something silly like installing Linux on your box, they'll have to get a new email address to use under linux (another tie-down to Linux).
    --

  • They said the same thing about Hitler -- Chamberlin's "We shall have peace in our time! et. al. Granted, Microsoft isn't planning to gas whole sections of society (we hope), but they are starting from a position of (monopolistic) strength and attempting to (in some cases) beligerantly claim new territory as their own. Sometimes they did it on the pretense that it was always theirs by right -- they just hadn't bothered to do much about it previously.

    Sometimes they are acknowledging that other people own the territory now. You can try and stop us, if you want, they may imply, but you'll loose the war.
    --

  • They're not really on Mars; they're in the Arctic.
  • Check out my HTTPMail project [sf.net] which is a client for the HTTPMail protocol used by Outlook Express for Hotmail and MSN mail. There's even a POP3 proxy.
    --
  • by brassman ( 112558 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:11PM (#121078) Homepage
    Inebriety is cause for immediate and indefinite expulsion at the expelled person(s)'s cost!

    Which would be even more of a real disincentive if that expulsion involved an airlock, halfway to Mars. (Though expulsion above the Artic circle is no joke, either.)


    --

  • Hmmm. More like "Don't hate me because I'm evil. Hate me for trying to squash you like a bug."

    And for the commercial... "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful... Hate me for ripping your heart out with a rusty spoon and spitting on it."

    What, me bitter? Nah...


    --Fesh

  • Is it just me, or does it seem like the entire software market has become a giant game of CoreWars?


    --Fesh

  • Check out Pricewatch [pricewatch.com], many system builders their will preload a linux distro on an order or even set up a dual boot system before it leaves the shop. Plus they allow you to hand select the components that dell won't give you a choice on, mainly motherboards or other video and sound cards than their exclusive deals with some companies prevent you from ordering. A2Z computers [a2zcomp.com] is who I had build my latest rig and I have been pleased with the system and their support, but shop arround and check with the BBB to make sure the company is legit.
  • > Dont send all that stuff to Mars with these people, folks..really.

    Who's going to Mars? The post is about a trip to the arctic.

    > We shouldnt be sending people who'll need their booze and blowup dolls by any means.

    For any potential Mars mission no one who "needs" booze and blow-up dolls would be selected. Luxury items will certianly be included, however, since the crew will have to stay sane, comfortable, and amicable on the 3+ years the mission would take.

    >We should be sending Marines there and oil rig miners...

    Oh, like in Aliens and Armageddon!

    > Dont think their aren't sci fi hacks who couldnt get published sitting at CIA analyst desks right now thinking about this stuff.

    ...or posting on Slashdot. I'm sorry... why on Earth (or Mars) would the CIA care about the social dynamics of a colony that won't even exist for at least a century?

  • I don't know as I'd consider any adult in the prime of their life who could go 3+ years without sexual release to be particularly sane. Or were you just thinking they'd send an equal balance of the sexes so that no one needs any sex toys?

    All I meant was that the original poster's implication that NASA was somehow encouraging alcoholics and sex-addicts to sign up for important missions was far-fetched. I didn't mean to imply that booze and blow-up dolls would be inappropriate on such trips -- quite the opposite.

  • Wow, now that sounds like fun. M$ dicides to break pop, why becouse standards dont matter. Well lets take them to task. Many of the .NET features(bugs) will do this. The way I see it is we must crack/hack/document the M$ secrets, then write a compatibality layer. So a proxy that will talk M$ crap on one side and standard POP+SSL on the other side is a good start!
  • I guess they haven't heard of the "Real Doll" over at NASA yet.
  • pricewatch.com does have ads for "bare bones" laptops that, IIRC, go as stripped down as "screen,case,mobo,power supply." Add your own HDD, RAM, etc. With laptops, the case and mobo are usually designed together (I'm not aware of a standard), and the video/sound pretty much have to be onboard, so it'd be tough to buy less than that.


    Sotto la panca, la capra crepa
  • Its very simple: if you want MSN, you must use Outlook Express or a web-based interface.

    Both choices make it prohibitively difficult or impossible to filter spam.

    1) Buy a Dell

    Like Gateway is any better <cough>AOL</cough>.

    2) Choose Windows on that Dell rather than Linux

    A Dell box with Linux actually costs more (MS tax per box Dell ships whether or not Windows is installed, plus Linux media and printed manual costs), and the kids will eat you alive if you don't get them a new game machine, which Linux isn't at this writing.

    3) Choose to use the included MSN

    When the only other online provider in your area is America Online?

    So move.

    Give me a break [pineight.com].

    4) Choose to use MSN e-mail instead of a thirty-party mail sever

    The affordable POP3 and IMAP mail providers don't advertise much; how are the consumers to blame for not knowing that they even exist?

    5) Chosoe to continue to use MSN even after learning it was non-compatible.

    Again, the only other choice whose modem is not a pay-per-minute long-distance call (i.e. America Online) is even worse.

    dont' buy products from them indirectly (ala Dell)

    Name one company selling x86 architecture workstations to the home market who is not subject to the Microsoft tax.

  • Why should anyone care if Microsoft requires you to use their products when you use their ISP?

    Because Microsoft is in monopolistic bed with the spammers, and you can't read hotspam [hotmail.com] if you're using a POP3 or IMAP MUA with good filters (which Outhouse Express lacks).

    Because Microsoft products don't run on anything but i686 architecture machines, and if you don't already have an i686, prepare to fork over $1,000 for a new computer. (I'm not sure if Outhouse Express for the Mac supports the brand-new protocol.)

  • At least you understand what I'm saying...hell, at work , we throw together small HP servers (like the LPr) in about 1/2 hour...the point is that nobody should be whining about how hard/how much time it takes to put a machine together these days..I remember pushing roughly 32 individual RAM chips into my 386 motherboard, to get a grand total of 8 megabytes of ram..given that they were fragile, and it also cost me over $800, it took well over two hours :)
  • You don't have the time to build a system? Good grief...it takes about 20 minutes to get a mobo into a case, about another 20-30 minutes to install the drives (HD, CD, Floppy), and about 5 minutes to drop the cards in (video, NIC, sound). Wiring should take about 20 minutes, if you are doing it carefully (no backwards IDE cables on the first try), and neatly. That's a grand total of less than two hours.

    Compare that with doing an install of Linux, coupled with the requisite kernel build, module installation, etc, and overall, the hardware build is most likely going to be the shortest part of the build. Please don't tell me you just slap on a default install of Redhat or whatever, because at that point, if you're looking for a pre-built machine and a default install of an OS, you might as well be buying a Dell with Windows ME pre-installed. Linux distros, out of the box, need a ton of work to become usable (as does Win2K, no bias implied)

    Either way, pre-installs suck

  • ...then why do you care how you get your MSN mail anyway?

    Just do the same thing I used to do with Lotus Notes at work--use it for the "required" company BS, use real mail to do real work.

    If MSN sends you privacy notices, billing info, things like that, then you have to read your MSN e-mail, but you should be able to filter out everything that doesn't come from them and/or just check it once in a while to make sure you aren't being charged for scratching your butt. If you never give out your MSN address, then you know that everything else that comes there is spam.

    Use real mail for everything else. Is it a PiTA? Yes, but what did you expect from a freebie given away with a box for promotional reasons?

  • If they don't want to upgrade their client, they can still use HotMail, right?

  • Fetchmail can load mail from Compuserve's servers. It has a special protocol built in to do this.

    I've been told that this also works with MSN, but requires some tweaking.
  • by Linguica ( 144978 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:35PM (#121094)
    When I saw the department thingy under the headline, I immediately thought "Flash file extension" and not "single white female." Is this as bad as I imagine it to be?
  • Not in any way that matters...

    /Brian
  • I do think Dell has some of the sexiest server cases out there...

    Dell does seem to be pretty good about the commodity thing, apart from their obsessive reliance on Intel. I am inclined to agree though that you're better off going small-time or self-built sometimes.

    /Brian
  • Pretty impressive, but you've still got, y'know, Hotmail to deal with.

    /Brian
  • The thing about Sony's systems is that they're so proprietary that getting Linux on them is something of a challenge. It's a psychological thing -- by buying a LavenderPlasticBox and throwing Linux on it, some people probably feel that they're repudiating proprietary business models in their own way.

    Me, personally... now that the PC subnotebook market has opened up again, I'd just as soon buy one from Gateway if I was going to. Theirs are just as slick and a lot less proprietary. (Though I'd go for the iBook first, just like you...)

    The thing about laptops that surprises me -- how is it that we don't see partially-assembled systems with power circuits and such where all you need to do is add a motherboard and hard drive? (Or do we? I never see such things in Computer Shopper...) It would seem like a pretty obvious thing to do.

    /Brian
  • If you really care, they use a diluted primer as a buffer between the two materials.

    --
  • No, no no NO NO NO! Teflon (PTFE) was not invented by NASA. Teflon was not even invented by someone else for the space program. Teflon was "invented" by accident at DuPont in 1938

    I didn't say they invented it, of had it invented for them. However they brought it to us, no matter where it came from originally. It was NASA's use of it that popularised PTFE and its related fluoropolymers, at least in this part of the world. You couldn't get Teflon anything here until the late '80s or so, at least that I'm aware of.

    Of course, your mileage may vary. Given that it had been around for about forty years (as a trademarked product) before then, it's quite likely that American markets would have got such consumer products considerably earlier.

  • by Morbid Curiosity ( 156888 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:27PM (#121102)

    Hmm. And to think, it was NASA that brought us such useful substances as teflon, which makes for easy-clean, non-stick surfaces...

    Then again, if a RealDoll's too heavy, I'm sure they could get by with a RealHamster [realhamster.com] instead.

  • by ErikTheRed ( 162431 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:18PM (#121103) Homepage

    Fun stuff (Kites, Blow Up Dolls) N Optional
    Should have read (might as well go all the way):

    Fun stuff (Kites, Blow Up Dolls, Condoms, Pr0n, Silicone-based Lubricants, Vibrators, Dildos, Handcuffs, Leather Hoods, Corsets, Riding Crops, Large Feathers, Massage Oil) N Optional
    Funny, you think that on a real mission they'd want to conserve oxygen, not waste it on those dolls... (Robert Schimmel joke: "Inflatable love doll - she never has a headache! Yeah, but you do after blowing her up...) I wonder if they have NASA-approved sex toys...?
  • Fuck Guam and Greenland, send the bastard to Mars.

    The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit:
    Pissing off coffee drinking /.'ers since Spring 2001.

  • 2 hours? Damn. I've built boxes while AT the fry's parking lot (because if you take it home and it is broken (likely scenario at fried, er fry's) ya gotta go back to the store again), in well under half an hour (inverters are nice). Whatever...
    Though self built machines usually don't have small, cramped, super sharp-edged shitty cases (i.e. compaq, HP - though dell is fairly decent) that can only be serviced by midgets.

    The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit:
    Pissing off coffee drinking /.'ers since Spring 2001.

  • by loraksus ( 171574 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @04:50PM (#121109) Homepage
    that this isn't for a mission to mars, just a training mission (so all the arguements about weighing too much, sending miners and marines to mines, etc, etc are kind of moot)

    but if you can bring 2 liters of any alcohol, you might as well bring 2 liters on moonshine, a few packs of coolaid, some sugar and make "nuclear slurpies". That'll warm you up on a cold night...

    The slashdot 2 minute between postings limit:
    Pissing off coffee drinking /.'ers since Spring 2001.

  • Or how about this: don't use MSN, don't use .NET, and don't buy computers with windows installed on it. Its pretty simple, why should we go to the trouble of hacking and cracking and all that stuff when instead we can just use an alternative and not support MS in any, or give them the satisfaction of shutting down/stomping out your probably illegal use of their service?
  • Like Gateway is any better AOL.
    I have built all my computers from OEM parts. If I can do it, so can you. In fact, most computers are mom&pop/self-built. If you add up sales by all major vendors, it accounts for less than 50% of all computer parts sales. The rest all go together by hand.


    Name one company selling x86 architecture workstations to the home market who is not subject to the Microsoft tax.
    Go to your yellow pages, and look under "Computer Sales". Look for 'mom&pop' style computer stores. Bingo. There are about four in my smallish city (65,000 people), I am sure there are more in larger cities.


    Again, the only other choice whose modem is not a pay-per-minute long-distance call (i.e. America Online) is even worse.
    Starband works anywhere in the United States. The other alternative is DONT USE THE INTERENT. Its not a freaking right or a necessity you know. I used to live in a remote area with no decent non-AOL dial-up access and you know what? I had a dial-up ISP in a far-away place and I used a calling card to get my email. For other stuff, I walked my ass down to the public library and used their ISDN connection.


    The affordable POP3 and IMAP mail providers don't advertise much; how are the consumers to blame for not knowing that they even exist?
    I don't care. You make it seem like it is impossible to ignore MS, when it fact its readily do-able, and even financially prudent. If you just use MS because its easiest or most available then fine by me - but be clear about it - you are actively choosing to use their products and services.


    Both choices make it prohibitively difficult or impossible to filter spam.
    Then don't use MSN. Bottom line: if you dont like the product, then don't use it.


    I don't know why you are dead-set on trying to prove that MS rules everyone's life. Its not true. The only power they have derives from the consumer. If people such as yourself and the original author would step up and take a proactive approach to the Microsoft situation, MS would soon either whither and die or change its business practices. Instead, we have people who complain and whine and bitch about MS on slashdot when they are running IE, Win98, using an MS Mouse, and connected through MSN.


    Take responsibility for your choices, and be sure to always consider the effects of those choices. If we all just did that, MS wouldn't be who they are.
  • Microsoft is in business to make money
    Yep, indeed.

    So why should they let you access your MSN email without using a Microsoft email product?
    They don't, and several of the big players don't do POP3 at all anymore, or never did. AOL comes immediately to mind.

    That way, they reap the monopolist benefits coming and going.
    That doesn't make any sense. Its very simple: if you want MSN, you must use Outlook Express or a web-based interface. How is that monopolist? Are you claiming MS controls the e-mail market?

    Especially in this situation, where you're stuck with MSN.
    Stuck with it? Lets review the choices that the author had to make: 1) Buy a Dell, 2) Choose Windows on that Dell rather than Linux, 3) Choose to use the included MSN, 4) Choose to use MSN e-mail instead of a thirty-party mail sever, 5) Chosoe to continue to use MSN even after learning it was non-compatible.

    With the courts unwilling to stop Microsoft, this kind of thing may go on for a long time.
    No, with weak minded consumers like the original author Microsoft will stay in a powerful position. If you don't like Microsoft, the products they make, the services they created, or the policies they institute, don't buy any products from them, dont' buy products from them indirectly (ala Dell) and don't use their ISP.

    Its not that complicated folks, and it does'nt even require an overbearing and intrusive court decision.
  • Please Note:

    Inebriety is cause for immediate and indefinite expulsion at the expelled person(s)'s cost!

    Sort of takes the fun out of it, no?

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

  • by TrumpetPower! ( 190615 ) <ben@trumpetpower.com> on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:19PM (#121116) Homepage

    If you don't like the service that Microsoft is offering--that is, if you want POP3 access and they won't give it to you--then don't use their service.

    Sheesh, it's not like Microsoft already has a monopoly on email.

    So you got a year's free access, and you feel you have to use it? If your computer came with a year's supply of dog food, would you eat it just because you don't have a dog?

    b&

  • "Personal GPS receiver 1 Recommended Camping

    A strongly recommended item. Garmin and Magellan are among the more reliable brands. "Selective availability" is no longer a limitation. If you have a GPS receiver, be sure you know how to use it if navigating with it."

    Somebody please explain how GPS would work on Mars? (i.e. without an existing network of orbiting satellites)

  • I actually like Dell and I think they sell pretty good HW for the price. Mostly the reason is cuz I know I can call them and with the right attitude I can get them to send me just about any replacement component overnight.

    Even though I couldn't reformat it fast enough I believe in (most) of their products.
  • by Omerna ( 241397 ) <clbrewer@gmail.com> on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:31PM (#121124) Homepage
    Literally ; )
  • Dont send all that stuff to Mars with these people, folks..really.

    We have two ways of developing Mars- tourist method and productive method. In the tourist method, the luxuries from Earth are imported to hermetically sealed hotels, and, like "ecotourists," those who are on Mars are enjoying it for its pristine nature.

    The productive method is prefarable; through grueling work over centuries, Mars is terraformed to bring a less exotic but more profound benefit to all humanity.

    We should be sending Marines there and oil rig miners- people who are used to very extreme conditions and will relish the hardship and use it as an incentive to change the red planet to something habitable for human life.

    We shouldnt be sending people who'll need their booze and blowup dolls by any means.

    Of course, a Spartan existence for Mars colonists may encourage a nascent nationalism among them- even a desire for eventual independence from Earth. That's why Earth will want them as dependent on luxuries as possible- to affect their deep politics and character.

    Dont think their aren't sci fi hacks who couldnt get published sitting at CIA analyst desks right now thinking about this stuff.

  • I'd switch. The trouble is, they lock you into paying for a year of service, _then_ you find out that certain standard services are not included. If you were free to quit anytime, then it's simply taking advantage of idiots, which has never been a big deal in the USA...

    If I understand the MSN FAQ cited above, the proprietary protocol doesn't even support Outlook, just Outlook Express. (One difference between these is that Outlook stores your old emails on your own hard drive. Express stores them on the server only.)

  • ...then why do you care how you get your MSN mail anyway? RTFA. He got a year's MSN contract with his new computer. Now if they would let you cancel the contract as soon as you find out what it really entails, it wouldn't be worth complaining about. But it sounds like they're going to bill him for 1 year whether or not he uses it...
  • by markmoss ( 301064 ) on Friday June 29, 2001 @06:17AM (#121135)
    They are going to somewhere in the Arctic, maybe Devon Island (Canadian, NW of Greenland if I remember right), where conditions are as Mars-like as possible without spaceflight. OK, the air is still breathable (except a sudden inhalation through the mouth could frost-bite your lungs), and the gravity is wrong, but temperature and terrain are similar, and we've got to train somehow before the real thing.
  • by Gazelem ( 460580 ) on Thursday June 28, 2001 @03:17PM (#121146)
    AOL requires you to use their software to check mail on their systems.

    Big shock. Why should anyone care if Microsoft requires you to use their products when you use their ISP? Where are the articles about AOL requiring you to use their client software to get mail?

    Look, there is plenty to get irritated about with Microsoft. They are very predatory with their licensing and the way they bully their partners. Wouldn't it make more sense to attack the things that are almost universally decried rather than attacking everything MS does and look "anti-microsoft"?

    People shouldn't hate microsoft because of who they are but rather hate the specific things they do are wrong. It's counterproductive to seek out issues that will detract from the primary point that Microsoft uses licensing, bundling, and bullying to keep its suppliers in line and crush the competitors.

    Again, this is no different than what AOL does.

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