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Microsoft Unhappy With Bungie's Use Of Linux 262

Noctavis writes: "According to this article at Inside Mac Games, 'Mat Soell [of Bungie] indicated in a forum post several days ago that some Microsoft employees they have spoken with were unhappy that the Myth servers ran on Linux, as of course Windows NT is the platform of choice at the Redmond campus.' For those who may not know: Bungie Software, now Bungie Studios, was acquired by Microsoft earlier this year and its upcoming title Halo will apparently be the flagship game on the X-Box in a year from now; some say its "killer-app." It has since been reconfirmed for the Mac & PC, but the timetable for such a release has not yet been revealed. (Anyone think we can realistically expect it sooner than 3-6 months after the X-Box release?)"
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Microsoft Unhappy with Bungie's Use of Linux

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  • Well, let's read Slashdot in Lynx. Then banner hits become irrelevant.
    Maybe the stories will become more balanced, who knows.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    "The game literally put my jaw on the floor"?

    Wow. Either you've got a really, really, really big mouth, or they included explosives in the game box. Lemme know if its explosives so I can stay far away. That's dangerous!
  • That assumes that a command line is ever "right".

    (humor impaired, see above...)
  • You do know that you can filter out postings about Microsoft...

    This kind of news matters to some of us. This post is more humerous than informative, to me. It's entertaining and good reading none the less.

    "Evil beware: I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hampster!"
  • Can you imagine trying to run a game server on some NT box. Bwahahahaha.

    That's one sure way to send Bungy into a black hole and cut out one source of games form a competing platform...
  • I don't know what's more annoying. The knee-jerk Linux supremacists or the knee-jerk Microsoft apologists who are sick of seeing MS attacked on Slashdot.

    A little sensitive to criticism, are we?

    I'm sorry to have to inform you that the technical points raised by this article are salient. Remember Hotmail? It *still* runs UNIX, if I'm not mistaken, despite Microsoft's best efforts to make it run on NT. Fact was, NT just couldn't handle the load. I see no reason to believe that this might not be the case here as well.

    Oh, one other point. You wrote:
    If only the main /. page had a threshold filter like the comments page did... =)

    It does. You can filter out any type of story you don't want to read. Don't blame me if you haven't figured out how to use it yet. And don't complain about /.'s editorial bias. D'you think would give you anything better? Or perhaps Mindcraft?

    Chris Tembreull
    Web Developer, NEC Systems, Inc.

  • It is not only Microsoft. 99% game companies release only for Windows ( on PC market) and it has nothing to do with world domination.
    Linux is not gamers OS and there is no money to made there (remember Quake for Linux ?.) Simple as that.
  • Somebody actually did a 'DOOM for system administration' game a while back. I don't have the link handy, but the idea was that you could run around and kill processes using whatever weapon you had at hand. Each enemy had a different process ID number--when you killed that enemy, you killed the corresponding process.

    I think the biggest problem was that if you weren't careful, you'd kill the PID associated with your DOOM game, dropping you out immediately.
  • Silicon Valley Strategies 101

    How to Become a Millionaire

    Examine the operations of a Silicon Valley giant with huge revenues (Oracle, Cisco, corner Beacon gas station)

    Spot product/service/technology gap in their market direction

    Develop product/service/technology, or a pretty good fake of it

    Wait patiently (thumb twiddling optional)

    Accept their ludicrous buy out offer


    Conspiring Against Bill

    Think of a wildly successful software product/game/doohickey (hint: do not look at what others are already developing, it's probably dead already)

    Develop it entirely without M$ products


    Accept ludicrous buyout offer from M$ (assuming they don't Imitat^H^H^H^H^Hnnovate same idea)

    Listen for disgruntled mutterings from Redmond when they realize it's stable on a non-M$ platform

    Listen for screems from Redmond after they unsuccessfully try to convert it over to their platform

    Throw back head and cackle with insane glee


    It's all true! ±5%

  • ...Someone looking at Slashdot for the first time would think that to Nerds, the stuff that matters is constantly whining about Microsoft and how evil they are. We've discussed things just like this over and over again...

    Someone just joining wouldn't know that we've discussed this over and over again, and people that have been around for a while generally have learned how to ignore stories that they don't like.

    <personal comment>Based on your comment (and the high user number), I guess you haven't learned to ignore yet. Don't worry, enlightenment will come some day...

    If it helps, look through the BLO pages. They're funny... :)

  • Hey,

    I don't see what the problem here is. Microsoft has brought a company, needing (as they do) some real games-programming talent. They want the company that they have brought to run Microsoft software on thier internet gaming servers.

    What's the problem here?

    Sure, we hate NT, and all things Microsoft. I think it's fair to say most of us won't be buying X-Boxes. Worst-case scenario, the servers all topple under the load and a bunch of people will not be able to play online games for a short time, until the problem is fixed. Some adminastrators will have to do some quite hard work getting the servers back up.

    Boo hoo. Boo bloody hoo.


    ...another comment from Michael Tandy.

  • Yeah, I've seen the 150 MB trailer. And I'm impressed. But those tricks are being built into the next generation of engines already - someone has to be working on inverse kinematics by now (and why not, most developers use 3D Studio MAX, which is very heavily IK-based), the physics engines will improve due to free CPU cycles from new TnL accelerators, and many new engines are coming with excellent terrain handling.

    Those would appear to be Halo's strong points, and they're all coming in the next 12 months.
  • by msoell ( 25190 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @11:08AM (#763638) Homepage

    Matt (two t's, IMG) Soell here to hopefully clear the waters that people have thoughtfully muddied in my name.

    There is NO ugly corporate pressure from MS demanding that we change our servers. None, zilch, zero, null.

    There have been a few scattered individuals who've made comments to the effect that we might want to consider an MS server solution. This has never come from anyone in a position of authority and has never been more than a passing suggestion of that individual's own opinion. They are as entitled to their opinions as we are to ours. The decision is still ours to make. In other words, it was no big deal, and that's all I've ever said about it.

    It's like me sending a letter to Inside Mac Games suggesting they fact-check their articles so they can avoid presenting biased inference as fact or at the very least spell people's names properly. They might feel a wee bit of annoyance at my suggestion but they'd still be free to ignore it completely. Know what I'm saying? :-)

    No doubt some of the conspiracy theorists already think I'm typing this with a gun to my head, so there's probably no point in dragging this out because people are going to believe whatever they want to believe. But I'll say it again in a way that hopefully no one can misinterpret:

    There is no interference from Microsoft in our choice of servers or anything else.


  • "..sleep with Satan"
    "Now they're just an MS pawn"

    Oh ho, it is only business. Ensemble Studios (Age of Kings fame) released every game with MS being their publisher and somehow, in my humble opinion, their games are the best out there.
    Fact is, they were forced to change hats in jannisaries to some unrealistic crap simply because MS was afraid that historically correct ones looked too much like KKK but, well, this kind of PC stupidity is not confined to MS.
  • You ain't kidding, but you've never seen a more horrid piece of crap than webshots. It downloads really crappy artwork for backghrounds ALL FUCKING DAY!
  • by Eil ( 82413 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @11:14AM (#763641) Homepage Journal

    I would wager that OpenGL works better in HalfLife due to the fact that Halflife is based on the QuakeII engine, which was OpenGL-only. Direct3D support is more of a hack.

    There's another instance this applies to also.. Unreal Tournament. Direct3D performance in this game is quite superior to OpenGL. In fact, the Unreal engine was originally worked only in software and Glide, but for reasons obvious, the developers decided to port to Direct3D as the main rendering engine.

    Of course, OGL vs. D3D performance is somewhat dependent on your video card drivers, but with good drivers for each, you can see the differences between different game engines.
  • Take for example, Motorola! Do you think their employees are running on computers running Motorola CPUs? Nope, they're using Intel boxes! Now, isn't that something. No wonder they're having a hard time fabbing PowerPC chips faster than 500MHz.. the Intel math on their desktop machines are screwing up the calculations! :)

    Linux user: if (nt == unstable) { switchTo.linux() }
  • by Bad_CRC ( 137146 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @10:14AM (#763644)
    I'm as much of a linux fan as anyone, probably more. but, if a linux company bought another who used NT servers, and grumbled that they would rather have the servers running on Linux, would that be acceptable?

    It's fine to advocate linux as much as we can, but it's also important to avoid hypocrisy


  • This story more than any other I 've seen to date, brings home the point of the "borg/Bill Gates" logo used on Microsoft stories. Good sense of humor.

  • Microsoft's panties are in a bunch from the discovery that their newly acquired jewel, Bungie "Studios" is running Linux game servers?

    The developers have spent considerable time building expertise in coding and supporting their game engine (server) for Linux, only to be told to use NT? I've always had the "right tool for the job" mentality - This is not unlike trying to use a small flat-blade screwdriver in a philips head screw because your boss, a technophobic idiot, insists the company's three-ring bound policy manual requires the use of Screwdriver #14, Small Flatblade in ALL SCREWS.

    This is little more than an annotation in the infamous "Microsoft Hall of Innovation" joke file floating around the net. Let's see..

    Will Loki Games be allowed to port Halo to Linux? No.

    Will the Mac/PC versions of Halo ship within six months of the X-Box version? No.

    Will Microsoft allow Bungie to release tools such as: limited source code for mod authors, or information on the engine technology used? No.

    Will mod authors who manage to rip open the game's internals and release custom client/gameplay modifications receive C&D (cease and desist) letters to pull their websites? Yes.

    "Bungie Studios." Fancy the wording - "Studio." Is this an artist colony? Perhaps employees sense their disposable nature in a revolving-door Microsoft world when they are part of an "ENSEMBLE" group, and not a "Software" company.

    Why would the owners of a software company give up self-determination to such a soulless, malevolent entity? To borrow loosely from the words of Dennis Hopper, from the film "Speed".. : "Money, mainly money.. I wish I had a nobler purpose, Jack, but in the end I'm afraid it's just the money."

    Sorry for the venom, but consider: Had Bungie not been acquired, the game would most likely have seen a Mac/PC simultaneous release, with a remarkably well done Loki linux client following two months later. The mod community most likely would have been encouraged. Odd how many game developers today, with the exception of Microsoft, seem to understand that a vibrant mod community can extend the life of your game, and contribute to it's ultimate success tenfold.

    It's it funny how simply putting "Microsoft" in front of anything immediately polarizes the suject in to "them" and "us."

  • by NecroPuppy ( 222648 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @08:54AM (#763652) Homepage
    Well, realistically, why wouldn't they be upset? It's equivalent to, say, Ford Motor company reacquiring Hertz, and finding out that all their executives drive Cadies...

    It doesn't really mean anything tho... People aren't buying and playing Myth because of what server it runs on...

  • by Crash Culligan ( 227354 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @10:19AM (#763653) Journal
    Microsoft meddling in the affairs of one of its vassal companies? This came as no surprise to me either.

    But I bet it came as a surprise to Bungie, judging by their letter to their fans []. To quote:

    What drove us then drives us now: to make the games we want to make, on our own terms, and in our own way.

    Holding true to this vision allowed us to create the Marathon and Myth series, and has now led us to Redmond to work closely with the Xbox development team.

    Here's how I figure the deal went down:

    1. Bungie develops game for several platforms and makes a name for themselves. (I think the history here speaks for itself.)

    2. Bungie would like to develop for the Xbox as well, and tries to get the SDKs for it. (It fits their pattern; if they have the patience to develop for Mac, PC, AND PS2, why not a fourth one?)

    3. Microsoft offers to not just send over SDKs, but buy out Bungie. Part of this was probably the assurance that Bungie staff would have an opportunity to influence the design of the Xbox. (Bungie's Acquisition FAQ [] bears this out -- see "Why is this happening")

    4. Bungie sells out to Microsoft in a fit of naivete and/or stupidity. If you haven't called up that FAQ [] already, do so -- read the Q&As starting with "Why do you believe Microsoft will leave you alone when there are so many documented examples of Microsoft doing shady things?" and try to hold down the bile.

    What it looks like to me is that Microsoft drew Bungie into its blob-like folds on the promise of listening to them and benefitting from their talent, and proceeded to ream them.

    Like this laughable line:

    The existing servers will continue to exist for the indefinite future. We are bringing the current head of the admins along to ensure that is maintained to our standards, and he will act as a full member of an online community team to ensure that future iterations of are designed with the players in mind.

    They probably seriously believed that when they signed over their good name. Pity them. And pity the forseeable future, which ended even before the ink was dry. And as for other promises, well, another thing they said in their FAQ was:

    Will Microsoft control the content or direction of Bungie games?

    No. The plan is that they'll leave us more or less alone to do what we do, and trust that the results will be worth it. They will be involved on some level at every step of the process, including conceptualization, but they will not shape the development of the games or censor content. Their interactions with us will mostly be on a business level.

    In the current light, make of that what you will. To me, it looked like a cloudy day way back when they signed the contract, and now it looks like it's going to hail.
  • Well, by end-user, I meant someone who buys Quake3 and runs a server, not someone id might pay to do the same, etc.

    Pretty well anyone with the bandwidth to run a good server will have a clue about a good machine/OS to run it on.

    btw, one of the replies, the one that says "I wish my users were using Linux" has the right idea. A system which is secure enough that it stops them from screwing with it. (yet, ideally, open enough that they can still install software, etc.)
  • That "failed" conversion to Windows 2000 seems to be working pretty well for them.

  • > the win2k servers are serving well and approximately equivelant load to what the BSD servers did.

    You misheard him. What he actually said was -
    The two thousand Windows servers carry a load approximately equivalent to what one of the BSD servers did.

  • It is getting harder all the time to port a game from Windows due to what is occuring in the Direct3D vs. OpenGL wars.

    Short version of API war: Direct3D sucks as an API, but over time its feature set has grown to signifigantly surpass OpenGL. The OpenGL ARB has its head stuck in (the sand), doesn't want to make "short term" API compromises and add all these new-fangled game features, and would prefer to have 4 years of debate per feature. Companies like nVidia have been opening a plethora of OpenGL extensions to allow game developers access to features otherwise only available under DirectX, but their use now requires card-specific programming, which both sucks in general and sucks even more under OpenGL which hides certain critical info (like texture memory issues.)

    Game companies pressured to produce the latest and greatest looking game would now rather code to DirectX/3D than OpenGL. OpenGL support comes later, if at all, and uses only a subset of the graphics functionality the windows game has, unless a trememdous ammount of additional work occurs.

    Its great if Bungee is still stating they will release for the Mac, but it remains to be seen how they handle the API issue. Most companies writing cross-platform games tend to wrote to the lowest common denominator of Direct3D and their best card donator, this is between nVidia, 3dfx, and ATI.
    If other ports are made, they would likely be using the Mac graphic code base with new platform code, which is non-trivial in and of itself.

    While Microsoft may not prevent them from porting, they may not have the time and/or resources to do it...
  • SInce the process were also armed, there was also a small (but real) chance that they'd kill one another . . .
  • There's a big difference between focusing efforts on platforms that they control, and buying a company in order to prevent that company's product from being released for other platforms, which is what the previous poster was claiming. Now I've seen no evidence to support that claim, and I'm not trying to back it up, I'm just pointing out that you seem to have missed what he was saying.

  • Thank you for purporting to represent the entire Slashdot audience with your personal opinions. Both you and the poster you were replying to are doing a fine job of deciding what all Slashdot readers should see. Perhaps we should just let you guys decide which stories get posted. Hell, if you aren't interested in it, I'm sure nobody else will be either.

    Now that I'm through with the sarcasm, I'd just like to say that if the story doesn't interest you, nobody is making you click on the little link to read the article or the posts. Just skip it and move on. That's not too tough for you is it?

  • by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @03:23PM (#763681)
    I'm not sure you're a developer, but it doesn't sound like it :-( Apologies if you are. ;-)

    > It is getting harder all the time to port a game from Windows due to what is occuring in the Direct3D vs. OpenGL wars
    That depends. If you code is using an middle layer then it's not a problem at all. You just have to re-write the middle layer.

    Big game developers like EA have been porting [ PC ] games to console for ages. If it was really a big deal, don't you think we would see less ports?

    > OpenGL which hides certain critical info (like texture memory issues.)
    You must be refering to the huge thread that Tim Sweeny posted to the "OpenGL Game Developers List."
    I believe there was no acceptable solution, due to an app could switch away from having focus at any time, and the OS would have to keep track of what app had what texture handle.

    > The OpenGL ARB has its head stuck in (the sand)
    There is something to be said for doing "The Right Thing" instead of throwing a spec together then 6 months down the road realizing, "Oh crap, we need to fundamentally change it."

    That's why OpenGL extensions are such a great compromise. They let video card manufactors come up with their own spec, and if it is a good solution, it becomes part of the official spec.
    (In contrast where the next revision of D3D uses it, no matter if it is a good or bad idea. Remember Execute Buffers? It was a stupid idea that was part of the spec, no-where to be seen now.)

    Yes, OpenGL has a lack of "leadership." There was an article on Game Developer just a short while ago discussing this. Fortunately nVidia has taken the lead.

    Yeah, I know most game developers don't care about porting, but some of us ARE trying. Mac first, then Linux.

    Where's Jon Leech for his insight when you need him ;-)

    3D Game Programmer

  • I plead not guilty. I never tried to represent the entire slashdot population, if you'll actually read my original post. In fact I only referenced myself, the orignal poster, and the slashdot staff.

    Its a perfectly valid observation that MS-bashing stories consistently get 600+ posts, while other stories, more interesting to the original poster and myself(not necessarily the entire slashdot population) typically get less than 150.

  • It was the 150 meg movie that made me start drooling over Halo, not a few screenshots. The movie is incredible. If the game looks or runs half that good, it will still kick the crap out of most other games.

  • Here I was thinking it was buggy and slow because I was accessing it with Netscape, but you're saying it was the servers?

    Maybe, maybe not. I dropped hotmail and signed up for some other OS' mail... [] much better.

  • by sphealey ( 2855 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @10:39AM (#763699)
    "Well, realistically, why wouldn't they be upset? It's equivalent to, say, Ford Motor company reacquiring Hertz, and finding out that all their executives drive Cadies..."

    About a year ago I was reading an intervew with Novell's CTO (for internal services) in which she described Novell's internal architecture. The inteviewer asked some sharp questions about why there were a number of NT servers in production on the Novell network. She replied (a) there was a business application required by her clients which ran only on NT (b) Novell's external clients use heterogeneous networks with Novell, Microsoft, *nix, etc products, so she believed her internal network should reflect that reality.

    Now, as a technology strategist, which company would you trust more to be your supplier in the long run: One which tries to eliminate all non-internal products regardless of functionality? Or one which works intelligently to work with the best of all products on the market?

  • First of all, the original poster was saying that slashdot should stick to things that really matter, implying that his view was the correct one, despite the fact that quite a few people seemed to be interested in the story.

    Then, you come along and accuse Slashdot of posting the story simply to get page-views. An accusation based soley on the fact that these stories generate a lot of posts. Yes, these stories get a lot of posts. Perhaps that's because there are a lot of people interested enough in the story to post about it? Often a lot of discussion is generated by these stories. While it may be a rehash for you, for others it may not be. There are a hell of a lot of /. readers now, and quite a few are pretty new.

  • If not already observed:M$ has also purchased FASA Interactive (Read: Mechwarrior III), They're laying the groundwork for a big X-Box rollout by capturing some of the best of what runs/will run on PCs.

    Actually acquiring these properties and then trying to monkey them up to make the M$-collective happy is detrimental to the eventual rollout of their toy. Not that they haven't done boneheaded things before, but with one year to go, consider, "Does a project like this benefit from scope creep?"

    It's all true! ±5%
  • ...being shot to heck by the poor judgement of its staff.

    Let someone (anyone, anywhere) post an article that is even slightly wrong about Linux, and Slashdot makes indignant noises. But the same principles of accuracy don't apply to Slashdot, of course... after all, Microsoft is "evil," so Slashdot thinks it is justified in publishing baseless speculation and rumor.

    Come on, Slashdot! While you let talking at MIT go to your head, you forget that with power comes responsibility. Microsoft never learned that lesson; too bad you're interested in emulating their poor example.

  • Zealotry is so humorous.

    Obviously Comet Cursor and Webshots is a joke as they are both bandwidth wasting pieces of crap. And as far as comparing Gimp to Photoshop, well.....


    *wipes tear*

    And please, continue replacing the word "the" with "da" as your street smarts have impressed me again and again.

  • Oh, great. Another "I'm not interested, so we shouldn't have this on Slashdot" post by someone who thinks that their opinions and tastes reflect that of the entire Slashdot community. Haven't we done this before, ad naseum?

    Get over yourself. Some of us like to keep up to date on Microsoft's anti-competitive nature. To those of us who love to play Bungie games on non-Windows OSes, this is not a good sign. If you don't like it, don't read it. There's always the option to filter MS news items.

    You think you're tired? I'm sick unto death of people like you going around discussion threads I like to read bitching about their very existance. I think I just about overdosed on it when Slashdot started carrying anime info.

    Bunch of whiners. Get the point of Slashdot. It's not just about reading what you like and censoring what you don't. The whole point of the moderation system and the ability to customize your Slashboxes and home page is that you don't have to see this stuff if you don't want to, but your opinion shouldn't be able to demand that no one else can.

    Heck, I can't stand Jon Katz, but guess what -- I got over it. I just don't read his articles, even when the front page excerpt is so vacuous and full of misinformation as to send my blood boiling, such as whenever he starts babbling nonsensically about role-playing games he seems to have never actually read, much less played.

    Why don't you grow up and realize that many people here are interested in what MS does. Your opinion is just one amongst many, not The One.
  • Hotmail is being migrated to Win2000 entirely for marketing reasons. The sales people need to be able to say, "Win2000 works for huge operations like Hotmail, it will surely work for your e-commerce company." I think it's a great test. If Hotmail crashes and burns, it will be a major public humiliation for MS and they would deserve it. If Hotmail does fine running Win2000, then good for them, they managed to design an actual working OS.


  • Hmm.. Well I was sure that I read in a couple places that it was based on Quake2. It's possible that they did begin coding with the Q1 engine and then added some of the enhancements from Q2?

    Oh well, doesn't really matter, my original point still stands. :)
  • You know what's funny then? Under Half-Life, the OpenGL drivers make the game run faster, look nicer, and all around run better than using the Direct3D version. I'm using an nVidia GTS2.

    BTW, please not that all I said is that MS wouldn't prevent them - not that there aren't other reasons not to port to Linux - which there are plenty. (Reasons presented in the parent post, the fact that anything you do for Linux will piss off someone, there's a market for Windows games, Linux games tend to be less stable than a Windows version and less feature-full, etc, etc, etc.)

  • Yeah.. Apparently that post was overrated.. That seems like balanced moderation to me.

    I'll say it again -I find the Bungie Liberation Page [] funny and a great way for people within to let their gripes be known.. I work with a guy who left softimage just after MS bought them up.. Sounds like not good folks to work for. Good to hear people from within speaking out.

  • It's their company now - why shouldn't they enforce NT laws? Would a Linux company say to an acquired startup "Gee, it's nice you're using NT. We wouldn't dare consider shifting you to Linux". Of course not. They'd move them as soon as possible.
  • by crgrace ( 220738 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @08:59AM (#763727)
    My, my is this a strange "news" story. Someone looking at Slashdot for the first time would think that to Nerds, the stuff that matters is constantly whining about Microsoft and how evil they are. We've discussed things just like this over and over again (remember hotmail and BSD)? and got nowhere and said next to nothing.

    I'm tired of little digs at Microsoft masquarading as news around here. I use Unix and I don't like Microsoft very much. But I don't want to whine like a spoiled puppy about it either. Can we stick to the real stuff the matters, like new products, on-line rights and privacy, and science?

  • its tech will be extremely dated., you're saying it'll be perfect for the Xbox?

  • ARGH, now I'm going to have to buy TWO next-gen consoles. *grumble*

    -- Dr. Eldarion --
  • by Tarnar ( 20289 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @08:59AM (#763735) Homepage
    I just had to do this. I needed to vent about this whole Bungie situation. Here, we have one of the oldest and, bar-none, coolest software companies known to man.

    I don't know how many hours I lost to Marathon, its sequels, WW, Myth, Myth II.. I planned to lose massive amounts of time to Oni and Halo. But since the announcement..

    Well, I haven't seen Oni (still). That game just looked so damn cool. Anime brought to life. What's worse, Halo. That game literally put my jaw on the floor. And that was before seeing the game in motion on the trailers.

    What was even better was that it was Bungie, a company that was committed to being cross platform and even committed to Linux. And here we see that being tread on. Bungie is being tread on. The thought honestly fills me with anger. Here is one of the brightest groups of people making games. Here is a group of people who gets as much respect from the Macheads as id software does from PC enthusiasts.

    And they're being tread on.

    *sigh* I was looking forward to Halo too.. And on Linux no less. Not some console game. No, I'm not slamming consoles. I just like having a keyboard and a mouse for shooter games. Excuse me, I'm gonna go cry now.
  • Slashdot decides to post anything remotely related to Microsoft, Zico bitches about it and is immediately bitchslapped for being such a predictable bore.

    Yawn, ideed...

  • by daniell ( 78495 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:00AM (#763740) Homepage
    This is one of those things Bungie should have expected. When their FAQ says that they were bought by MS as a model of what a game company and its cuture should be and not as something to be tampered with and assimillated, I wasn't about ready to believe it. I hope for them they have something like that in writing from MS so that they can operate their severs any way they see fit.

    Unfortunately in the future I predict that enough people interested in gaming and MS will apply at and transfer into Bungie, such that the pressure from within the organization of Bungie itself will force a large degree of MS conformity.


  • I too prefer PC gaming to console gaming -- but I do make one exception. For large, time-consuming RPG's (ala anything Squaresoft), consoles allow me to:
    1. Sit on the couch for hours, instead of a chair
    2. Use the single surround sound system I have (I can't afford two decent ones)
    3. Take a memory card (nice n' small) to a friend's dwelling and play there as well.
    There are "solutions" to these, but most of them are quite pricey, so I'd rather just have the console. Besides, I hate waiting for PC ports of console games to arrive!

    Aside from those advantages for RPG's, I must point out that multiplayer with people I know is easier -- I know several people who don't own toasty-enough boxen to play most modern games, and who wouldn't want to lug it around if they did! For this, an N64 is schweet!


  • by Anonymous Coward
    Oh MAN! You had to go and wreck a perfectly good tempest-in-a-toilet-bowl snit fit argument topic!

    Just who do you think you are buster?! :^)
  • The article mentions, right at the bottom, that some microsoft employees groan that it uses linux.
    The editor then ads that 'NT is the preferred platform at Microsoft' . DUH.

    Hardly a groundbreaking article there guys.. of COURSE some microsoft drones aren't going to like it.

    They did NOT say that 'Microsoft is very unhappy with the current state of the game servers' or anything. They just mentioned that some 'employees' didn't like it.

    Wah. Some of my employees don't like using windows either. Doesn't make them conspirators.
  • by clinko ( 232501 )
    Hmm, a MAC gaming magazine is reporting something about LINUX servers instead of WINNT servers. In related news, AtariMag is reporting that a SEGA genesis is being used at NINTENDO btw, What is the plural of OS?
  • by Signal 11 ( 7608 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:01AM (#763753)
    Hey, Microsoft.. if it bugs you that much, why not just integrate the game into the OS? I can think of more than a few geeks who'd love an anti-aliased 3D start menu and be able to pick up ammo in the system tray and go chase down and shoot badly-written applications (and developers!) that eat the last hour's worth of work in their finance spreadsheet.

    I mean, that's what you guys do, right? I mean, go in, muck around with the definition of an "OS" and an "Application" and then get sued by the government, right?


  • by lowe0 ( 136140 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:02AM (#763754) Homepage
    If halo is delayed until 3-6 mo. after the xbox release (currently slated for October 12, 2001), its tech will be extremely dated. As PC Games go, it'll be left in the dust if MS doesn't release by April. Unless they've got one hell of a surprise up their sleeves, they've got to make a Q1 ship date.
  • Sorry, but it's a joke..

    I pull that one on all of the new techies around here, and couldn't pass up the chance to attack /. with it.

    The first fellow I hit with it clicked for nearly a hour before coming over and asking me to do it for him, he wanted to play Doom. (It was so long ago that the 'game' was Doom and the MS product 'affected' was Office97 SP2!)

    Feel free to use it on others; It's so terribly plausible, as Easter Eggs exist in nearly every Microsoft product and 'upgrade versions' are released far too rapidly for anyone to keep up.

    Sorry again for making you click happy..
  • by finkployd ( 12902 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:04AM (#763765) Homepage
    I don't think anyone was bitching that they weren't using their own server OS, we thought it was humorous that they tried to move it to NT and failed, leaving it running whatever open source OS it started with (FreeBSD? IIRC)

    You would think that they would learn from their own mistakes, and admit that NT is not the answer for EVERYTHING and let well enough alone, but they will probably attempt another conversion and cause plenty of outages in the process.

  • I wonder if Slashdot would react the same way "MS is the all-consuming Borg" if Redhat objected to its children companies using NT on their machines.
  • by meteau ( 101450 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:05AM (#763771)
    The sad thing is, posts like yours (and mine) are just as guilty. It would be better to not post messages like yours or mine and jump down and think of something insightful or meaningful and post a new response to the original post. Hence forth from this day forward I declare that I shall never make another post like this one. I will no longer reply to messages such as thoses that I am now replying to. I urge you all to follow suit. Who is with me????
  • Matt,
    Well, you just tell them to fuck off.

    And keep writing the best damn game that ever was.

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:09AM (#763787) Homepage Journal
    Bill: ...and of course they use NT so they're a perfect acquisition
    Ballmer: No, my leige, they use some free operating system
    Bill: What?
    Ballmer (perspiring): Uh... It's not one of ours...
    Ballmer (wetting pants): It's Linux, my lord...
    Bill: Well fix that, you imbecile! What's the point of being a Mighty Evil Master if I can't have my whims!
    Ballmer: Yes, my liege! Your lordship!

    2 years later

    Ballmer: News, my liege!
    Bill: It better not be another one of those damnable snipes about the International Space Station plummeting in flames into Lake Erie after Win2002 hung the piloting systems. I'm sooo tired of that.
    Ballmer: No, my liege, we have converted the Myth servers to our own O/S.
    Bill: Ah, good, how's that going?
    Ballmer: Err.. Well it's funny you mention 'plummeting in flames'...

    It's all true! ±5%
  • Bungie had been one of the biggest indie developers for some time- that meant they eventually had to go deal with distributors themselves. It was hell, apparently, just awful. The worst part was that Bungie had to put up with all sorts of crap just to get the grand holy distributors to carry their product- distributors which only want to deal with, say, Microsoft and their ilk as it's safer to deal with huge conglomerates and nobody important gets offended.

    It's a little like shelf space in a supermarket. Most people don't know what a battlezone that is. Bungie had to know how ugly distribution really was because they depended utterly on being able to do it- well before internet file sharing was as big as it is now. Every step of the way, they faced total failure if one of the 800lb gorillas decided they didn't like Bungie being there.

    I don't know how much 'stick' was combined with the 'carrot' MS offered- it hardly matters. Bungie would be able to smell the _shadow_ of a stick. The merest hint of '...or we'll lean on your distributors' and Bungie would cave, knowing better than most companies how weak their lifeline was.

    Sure this isn't capitalism- your point? Slashdot readers of all people ought to understand how real barriers to entry can be. The way things work, Bungie had and has no guaranteed access to a free market, the way they were playing it. They wanted the distribution channels that are owned by the larger players, they wanted to be sold in stores and they were.

    They got tired of the brinksmanship. I for one won't hold that against them- the stress would have killed me if I was the one daring to do it :) at the same time, I don't expect their products will ever see any platform I use (i.e. Mac or Linux)- yes, I know it's promised for Mac, and I believe this is a lie or deception and that MS will FIND a way to see that Halo doesn't get finished for Mac, even something as simple as setting the priorities so fixing X-Box bugs etc is always more important. And finally, it's somewhat academic for me as I simply won't knowingly buy Microsoft stuff under any circumstances, any more than I'll buy RIAA label CDs at this point. It's a pity, but there it is- the only way you can pretend to defy a trust is by depriving yourself of whatever they are controlling. I will have to choose to not give MS money in the event that Halo manages to ship for Mac. I still don't believe this is likely to happen, though. *shrug* Bungie died, deal with it. They don't even use its name in MS X-Box press releases, did you notice? So much for using Bungie brand recognition.

  • by gfxguy ( 98788 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:10AM (#763790)
    all they have to do is build a better server OS.


  • by photozz ( 168291 ) <`photozz' `at' `'> on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:11AM (#763793) Homepage
    Quote from the linked article. :
    "We are an organized resistance to the subjugation of the Myth The Fallen Lords and Myth SoulBlighter game servers by Microsoft. We don't mind Microsoft running them as long as they don't attempt to make any stupid changes to their mode of operation, performance, free status, or existence
    Ummm.... Microsoft purchased the whole company, servers and all. That kinda gives them the right to do whatever they want. If Bungi was smart, they would have put a clause in the sale contract providing for the maintinance and status of these games in their curent configuration. If they didn't, I can't blame Microsoft for wanting to make a profit off this some day. Why else would they buy the company???

  • ok, let's say redhat buys adobe. goofy, yes, but let's say that happens. i would expect redhat/adobe to port adobe's suite of products to linux. i would expect them to maintain the mac an nt versions of their products. i wouldn't want them to drop any port - i'd just want them to add linux.

    i have no problems with ms/bungie adding support for nt, but keep it's linux support.
  • by jafac ( 1449 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @01:45PM (#763795) Homepage
    Mr. Coward, obviously you're befuddled by too much Solitaire - how can you say that W2K DC performs better than Sun, when performance is a hardware issue, and when you compare SPARC to x86, it's an apples and oranges game?

    What performs better? ten intel boxes to one sparc box? $50000 worth of intel equipment for $50000 worth of Sun equipment (which presumably includes OS and service, which the intel box would not, because the OS is licensed free from MS - to MS).
    How does it compare price/performance when you include what a REAL customer pays for Win2K Data Center - which is exhorbitant considering it's almost identical to Win2k professional, code-wise, with a few registry bits flipped?

    Reliability is also a relative term, because in the Windows world, you have less uptime, but you CALL that reliability because the downtime is planned for, not unexpected downtime. But can you hot-swap CPU's and motherboards in your Intel boxes? How many more Win2k boxes are required simply to maintain the CaptiveDirectory services?

    How many MAN-HOURS were invested in this project, start to finish? (including the prior attempts at migration that FAILED). Do you REALLY expect a customer to undertake such a foolish venture, and eat those costs? How do you explain the increase in customer complaints? Is this Microsoft's grand vision of the future? The promise of "New Technology"? Will HotMail be better off at the end of this migration, or will your marketing people finally get to brag, and forget about the big black-eye they got when they picked a fight with big-bad Unix. That makes it worth it, eh? But it's all about serving your customers, isn't it?
  • Does every Slashdotter agree with every other Slashdotter?

    Even more, does any Slashdotter agree with any other Slashdotter?

  • "There is no market. We give up. It's not possible to be an independent game company. We're off to join the biggest trust we can find, before it bothers to step on us and put us out of business, so that we can still have salaries and feed our families."

    Need it be explained that Microsoft set the tone for this situation? There are _plenty_ of industries out there where you can start a business, do good work, and have a future- though the numbers may be decreasing across the board (corporatism, in a word). The game industry is not one of them, apparently. Bungie chose not to die like Looking Glass. The question people should be asking is, do they wish to have companies like Bungie and Looking Glass forced out of the business for the convenience of the larger players? Do they like having their choices wiped out? Just because this effect is prevalent does not make it desirable.

  • There's a site which uses the embeddable version of IE to do this for you... You point it at a URL and it returns a JPG of what the site looks at in the browser you specify. I didn't bother saving a link because the odd bits of web stuff I do work just fine in lynx, but it could be handy to your web person.
  • You would think that they would learn from their own mistakes, and admit that NT is not the answer for EVERYTHING

    Just like Linux isn't the answer for everything.. or any other OS.

    Each OS has its uses, and each problem asks for a little research which system will work best for the given problem. As someone once explained to me: (and I've seen the statement on /. as well)

    "What's the best OS?"
    "Depends on what you want to do with it".

    Of course it makes sense to move everything to one system to decrease TCO, especially when other systems make up only a very small percentage of the total network. But, I suppose Bungie runs independently from the rest of MS so I doubt that's an issue here.

  • Maybe there should be a back page for /. What about all that news that is submitted but never posted?

    Actually, there is a back page for /. If you submit a story to a specific subtopic (such as Apache) they'll sometimes post it only to the subtopic and not to the front page. You'll be lucky if the story gets 10 comments total. Quite possibly a fate worse than being rejected.

    But...if this article had been back-paged, the signal to noise ratio would probably be a bit higher. People don't bother slinging flames when they know that no one is reading.
  • Fortunately for Linux geeks, it's highly unlikely that MS would completely prevent them from porting any games to other OSes. The DOJ would just love to have a Bungie employee come in and say that MS forced them not to develop for other OSes.

    Should MS win the court case, then they might be able to do that. Right now, they're in deep shit and they know it - they're actually playing the game very, very, carefully. Doing something like forcing Bungie to only develop for MS OSes would not go over well with the DoJ. So for the time being, we're OK.

  • X-Box. Just means it won't compete with Tribes 2 anytime soon.

    I'm biased, I love tribes, and I think Tribes 2 will be awesome. It kinda burns me that some sites show 1 or 2 screenshots from Halo and suddenly every gaming site and their mother is crowing that Halo is THE game we should be anticipating, THE game that will revolutionize squad warfare, and so on. It's just hype, hype, and more hype, when Tribes 2 will be out in a month or two, and Tribes IS the game that revolutionalized squad warfare (with due respect to TFC and CS).

    sorry, just a little rant, don't mind me.

  • by Phroggy ( 441 ) <.moc.yggorhp. .ta. .3todhsals.> on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:19AM (#763821) Homepage
    everyone know that NT can not support heavy traffic, everyone remember Hotmail when M$ changed server for NT? it was crap.

    Yes, but apparently Win2k is less crap, because Microsoft has finally successfully migrated Hotmail from FreeBSD to Win2k. So while NT4 can't handle it, 2k probably could. Of course, you'd probably need more powerful machines, and more of them, to do the same job, but that's fine; this is Microsoft.


  • Anyone else amused that the resistence is 'BLO' and they don't want:
    our game is not swallowed whole by the beast

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
  • They already have.

    Open up Word 2000, and intentionally invoke the paper clip (or other animated friend). Double-left click on him seven times, (click-click, pause, click-click, you get the idea!) If you got it right, the 'assistant' will to a breif animated trip. While the animation is still running, go to Help and right click 'About..'. A single left click on the 'what's this' gets you..

    A FPS surprisingly like Quake. You only get the one weapon, a cheesy plasma pistol, and there are only five enemies to kill, but there is a neato spinning obelisk in a secret area that scrolls the programmers names. Shoot it repeatedly to return to Word.
  • by Fross ( 83754 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:24AM (#763834)
    btw, What is the plural of OS?

    If it's Microsoft operating systems, the plural is SOS.

  • by leshert ( 40509 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:25AM (#763838) Homepage
    "Mat Soell indicated in a forum post several days ago that some Microsoft employees they have spoken with were unhappy that the Myth servers ran on Linux..."

    Hmm... I'll bet some Microsoft employees don't like kung pao chicken. Does that warrant a headline like "Microsoft Unhappy With Chinese Government"?

    The assumption that Microsoft speaks for every employee and that every employee speaks for the company is utterly ridiculous. Does every Slashdotter agree with every other Slashdotter? Would you be willing to adopt the views of "some Slashdot viewers" when talking about the views of "the open-source community"?
  • It's too late to save Bungie, I fear. My guess: inside of two years, they'll be Windows-only. Halo will never come out for anything but Windows (or, if it comes out for MacOS, it'll be a crippled port not unlike what Sierra tried to do to Half-Life). Or if it comes out for anything but Windows and Mac (and remember that even a Mac port is highly unlikely), the inevitable sequel will not.

    But this is more proof of why MS must be stopped. It buys companies with big cross-platform plans, and then turns them into platform-tied shadows of their former selves, more or less solely to try and keep control of the industry. Think about it: these guys even fought TCP/IP for years, because they couldn't control it (even MacOS, the supposed "lord of all things closed and proprietary," can file-share over TCP/IP out of the box; only Windows can't, at least not with the standard mechanisms they provide).
  • by jidar ( 83795 )
    I wouldn't say the migration was really 'successful', maybe mediocre. I am tech support at an ISP, and I have been getting a lot of calls lately complaining that hotmail is slow and gives errors. That didn't used to happen.

    Of course I have nothing to do with that, but it doesn't stop people from calling...
  • If I recall correctly, Bungie no longer owns the rights to the Myth Series. When Microsoft bought out Bungie, Take Two owned like 20% of Bungie, and as part of the deal, Take Two gets to own all rights to the Myth series, so it should be a null point which OS the Myth servers run on. Check Section II []
  • by peterdaly ( 123554 ) < t c> on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:27AM (#763843)
    The comments about the usage of Linux for the server has very little to do with the entire article. As a matter of fact, what you see quoted in summary is the whole discussion of the OS issue from the article. I was hoping for information on the topic.

    I went there expecting to read about the OS server war, and was greated by text about the Mac gamers not wanting the software messed with. I have nothing against Mac gamers, I was one once myself. Frankly, I don't give a rats ass about 99% of what this article was really about, and would have appreciated a more balanced summary.

    Slashdot should have done a better job with the commentary on this one, or at least added more about the "meat" of the article.

    I think this qualifies as news for a gaming site...this is not really late breaking Linux, or techie news. The geeks at the compund may have forgotten the second part of their slogan on this one. (Stuff that matters.)

  • They did? When did this happen - I would've thought there would have been a lot of talk about this?

    The word I heard was that MS had used a lot of Windows machines as "front ends" to the Hotmail service (to make it look like the Hotmail service was completely running as a Windows-enterprise service), but that the backends (database/file services/etc) were still running some form of BSD because the Windows platforms couldn't handle the load.

    Has this changed in the last year?
  • But, Linux *is* the answer if you're looking for a cheap and stable platform for something you're counting on end-users to run.

    Sure, a huge Sun box might be faster and more stable, or WinNT might be more common, but what's the most likely for some geek working in an ISP to use to throw up a server?

    Of the OSes and hardware available to the target group for Halo server-ops, Linux on PC hardware is the best available.

    (No doubt a *BSD could do it as well, but here I'd aim for the largest of the free OSes first and get users to port to the others, like id did with Quake servers.)
  • I would rather see everyone at Bungie leave and form another game company. When you buy a company, you're really buying the attention of the people who work for it. It would be very fitting if the Bungie people told Microsoft that it wasn't worthy of their attention by leaving.

  • "which according to the article they're not getting"

    I understood that the "resistance" group was organizing in case something does happen; but all is good for now.

    There is concern that MS *might* switch the servers to NT, but they have *not* done that, much less has there been any server problems.
    D. Fischer
  • Wow! This story actually made /. front page news, eh?

    I think a lot of people, including IMG [] are over-reacting to Mr. Soell's comments. His original forum post at [] only indicated that a few people made some "snarfy comments." It is not like Microsoft in general is in a state of discontent because Bungie Studios is using Linux to power their [] servers.

    Honestly, I doubt Microsoft in general really cares, as long as the product works and makes them money. Granted they don't make much if anything off of, but the people who use it are the same people who are going to buy Halo when it is released.

    So, I guess the point is: there is no need to over-react because a couple of OS fanatics made a few remarks...people here do it all of the time...


    btw, that was sarcasm.


  • by Xzzy ( 111297 ) <> on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:51AM (#763864) Homepage
    Matt Soell said this under this URL []:

    "We've spoken to a couple people here who've made snarfy comments about us not using an MS server for and we've ignored them."

    Sounds a fair bit different than what Inside Mac Games reported, doesn't it? Sure, you can translate that to mean "M$ is unhappy", but he never actually SAID that. It's just people falling prey to a media organization (insidemacgames in this case) who are buttering up their stories with scandal and comments that scare people.

    It increases page views (heck, how many of you visited the url given in the story?), and that's all they're trying to do.

  • by skoda ( 211470 ) on Thursday September 21, 2000 @09:52AM (#763865) Homepage
    As far as I can tell, Bungie was a privately held company, with 20% held by TakeTwo. MS bought TakeTwo's ownership, TakeTwo got ownership of programs, including Myth & Oni, as well access to current and future technologies.

    So blame Oni's absence on TakeTwo.

    If I'm correct, and Bungie is a private company, then they weren't bought unless they (the owners) wanted to be bought. By all accounts, this was not a corporate raid, or hostile takeover. MS made an offer that Bungie liked, and they went with it.

    So blame Bungie if Bungie is screwed by MS. If they made a pact with the devil, it's their own doing.

    Another perspective comes from their CEO. They saw the writing on the wall (and to infer), didn't want to go the way of Looking Glass Studios. So they got a big company with deep pockets to give them access to what they would need to stay in business for a good while longer.

    Here's the full quote:
    Why is this happening?

    For two reasons:

    A. Microsoft is offering us the opportunity to lead the way on a next-generation console system. We will not only be one of the premier developers for the platform, but we'll be working directly with the Xbox team, helping to optimize the hardware and software for each other. We'll influence the design of the system; we'll help to ensure that the Xbox is the best platform to code for, and the most impressive console on the block. Such an opportunity does not come often. Bungie has always tried to keep abreast of the industry, if not ahead of it, and next-gen consoles seem like the place to be if you develop games. This deal allows us to get into that market in a big way.

    B. The business of publishing entertainment software independently has changed enormously since Bungie started. Bungie was not in immediate danger of going under, but we realized that within a few years we'd need a strong partner if we wanted to keep making games the way we always have. We opted to make what we saw as an inevitable move while we were still in a position of strength, rather than wait for circumstances to force our hand. The ultimate goal is to ensure Bungie continues to exist and continues to produce the high-caliber games for which it is known.

    Here are locations of info:

    MacCentral report on acquisition []
    Bungie Corporate Info [] []
    Bungie Acquisition FAQ []

    D. Fischer
    Huh? It took them ten versions of the operating system to get the command line right.

    For the humor impaired, sod off :P
  • End User != ISP.

    I wouldn't want any of my end users running Linux. I think it's great for my servers, but my users do just fine with solitaire and word. Not to mention they need photoshop, webshots and comet cursor.

    Hey that's just me though. Call me a crazy sonm of a bitch.

  • Wow! This story actually made /. front page news, eh?

    As if there is back page /. news. Mmmmm, makes you wonder. Maybe there should be a back page for /. What about all that news that is submitted but never posted?
  • At least we can hope. =)
  • >> Can we stick to the real stuff the matters, like new products, on-line rights and privacy, and science?

    Sure, that stuff is what really matters. To us. What matters to slashdot is getting those banner views, and for that, nothing beats a good ol' "my OS can kick your OS's ass" flamefest.

  • its tech will be extremely dated. As PC Games go, it'll be left in the dust if MS doesn't release by April

    Right, and that would be why Half-Life, which was released in the fall of 1998, is still the most popular online FPS game, beating out Quake III 22,000 to 4000. []

    It's not all about tech. Gameplay is important. And that's why Counter-Strike is the best FPS game ever made, and why Halo can still succeed *shudder* if MS decides to maximize their profit by hoarding it on the X-Box for a few months.

  • I hate consoles. The PC keyboard and mouse combo (along with tons of other available peripherals) offer infinitely better control. PC monitors have much better resolution than TVs. Hard drives are fairly cheap and offer tons of storage space. PC game graphics nearly always kick the crap out of console game graphics.

    I've tried playing shooters on playstation, N64, and Dreamcast... to put it mildly, they suck. RTS games suck on consoles too. About the only games consoles are good for are platform scroller type games and sports games, but since equivalent controllers are available for the PC, the PC does those games just as well or better anyway. The only real advantages that consoles have are consistant hardware and a low pricetag. But, as they say, you get what you pay for. I think the additional utility, flexibility, and power of the PC warrants the extra cost. But then, I'm a rather hardcore gamer and have been for nearly 20 years. I've seen several console games that have slow-down problems even though they were written specifically for the console's hardware. So even with consistant hardware, games don't always run smoothly, which is a complaint I've heard console gamers make about PC games.

    I'd be glad to elaborate on my complaints about consoles, or to hear other people's views on them.

  • if your users *need* comet cursor I'm very happy I don't have to be anywhere near them.
  • Hmmn.. there is only one thing you all but said so ill say it for you

    Microsoft has goofed up yet another good thing..

    Lets put the focus to where the real problem is, Bungie SOLD OUT.

    Thats the problem, going public (not sure if they are) or just plain selling out means that whoever is running the company is a sell out.

    Public companies do whats best for their stock holders...

    Private companies who see $$$ signs when MS come to them... Obviously sell out.

    Blame whoever made this deal with MS not MS, For MS this is natural for their company, for Bungie it is obviously painful.

    But please dont come out and say Bungie is being abused, MS is doing this but it could have bene prevented by Bungie.


This process can check if this value is zero, and if it is, it does something child-like. -- Forbes Burkowski, CS 454, University of Washington