The Ultimate Geek Food

Triune writes, "Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, has started Scott Adams Foods in order to sell their new burrito-type snack that contains 100% of most, if not all, the daily requirements. The Dilberito!" The ultimate geek food? You'd elect this over ramen noodles? Note to Andover execs - exploit marketing possibilities of the CmdrTaco.

That's just wrong...

[emc]

There are some things I wish could be undone.

This is definatly one of them.

I'll stick with my Cup O' Noodles, Eggos, Pop Tarts, and Diet Pepsi.

Jolt

[threaded]

Jolt [wetplanet.com] is the ONLY geek food ... ever.

Oh, and some cold pizza to soak it up.

Yeah, but...

[moonsammy]

Where's the beef? And whats with the non-dairy cheese? This can't possibly qualify as geek food - its not even close to unhealthy enough. We don't drink coffee and Dew and Jolt becuase we're taking care of our bodies!

Delivery Taco Bell - that is the ultimate in geek eating.

quality control

[Skald]

I wonder what percentage of Ratbert the FDA will allow in this...

Poor forethought...

[Issue9mm]

I think that maybe he should have paid a little bit more attention to what coders actually eat, if that's his target audience. I think it's good that it can be held in one hand, but I find it disturbing that there isn't a 'pizza' flavor. I mean, come on now.

Seriously, I'll probably pick up a 'Barbeque' or 'Mexican' to see if they're any good, but I really doubt I'll be picking up any 'Indian' or 'Garlic and Herb'. Now, if 'Pizza' was an option, then I'd probably buy a case of them without ever having tried them.

As far as the utility of the 'Dilberito', what's going to seperate this from other one-handed foods? e.g. Hot Pockets and others of its type. Better be tasty.

Hold it.....

[Shaheen]

Wait just a minute... what's this about daily requirements?? Here's the excerpt from the Indian Dilberito [dilberito.com] page:


Total Fat 5g 8% 8%
Saturated Fat 0g 0% 0%
Cholesterol 0mg 0% 0%
Sodium 630mg 26% 28%
Potassium 230mg 9% 10%
Total Carb 53g 18% 21%
Dietary Fiber 3g 12% 12%
Sugars 4g
Protein 8g


While the page *does* say that it provides 100% of many vitamins and minerals, the above is clearly not 100%.

Also, note that Total cereal DOES THE EXACT SAME THING in their marketing. You've seen the ads where they scroll down the Nutrition Facts and everything says 100% - that doesn't count the PROTEIN you need, it's only the vitamins and minerals.

If something with "100% of your Daily Requirements" were the ultimate geek food, Total would be much more popular than ramen.

Re:Yeah, but...

[DanJose52]

About the Taco Bell delivered food...why they don't do it. I work for Pizza Hut Delivery, which, as some of us know, is the same company as Taco Bell and KFC...and I can explain to you why you won't ever get a Grande Meal brought to your door: construction problems. Around here they have Taco Bell/KFC/Pizza Hut combo restaurants that used to deliver all three foods to people using the pizza drivers, but all this did was create problems with the Taco Bell food because it falls apart and gets messed up relatively easy. Fried chicken and Pizza are incredibly durable, a Chalupa is not. You can order KFC and Hut food delivered and get it intact(trust me, it goes through hell getting there in one of our cars), but tacos just don't fare as well.

This may be off-topic, this may be a "troll" according to some of the recent moderation, but it is meant as informative or to be left alone...

Dan

It's a health food

[blogan]

I remember reading about this a long time ago. Basically, Scott Adams was grossed out by something and became a vegitarian. He couldn't find any good vegitarian foods out there, so he decided to make his own. No preservatives. I prefer Pizza Rolls myself.

Slashdot poll: Which snack food do you like best?

Hacker's Diet

[Anthony Kilna]

This sounds like the perfect food for the Hacker's Diet. It looks like alot of volume for the calorie count, and has quite a bit of nutritional value as well.

I do have to agree that this looks more like Yuppie Chow (tm) than geek food. I just don't see engineers eating alot of legumes and non-dairy cheese. It is, however, a microwavable food... and there is a certain charm to foods you've just prepared by exposing them to radiation.

Now if Mr. Adams can hook up with Pepsico to make a healthy Dorito with 100% of my daily nutritional needs, to go along with my DMD (Diet Mountain Dew, a gift from above to dieting hackers)... Then he's really got something.

I'll try it, and if its good I'll continue buying it. But I don't really know if its wise for 'ol Scot to use the Dilbert name everywhere. Expecially on something whose concept it doesn't mesh fit with, like yuppie health food. We don't want Dilbert to become so ever present that we get tired of it.

ACK!

[jpowers]

They spray it with vitamins and stuff. Now I'm going to be sick.

http://cnn.com/FOOD/news/9910/20/functional.food /index.html

jpowers

Re:Jolt

[Accipiter]

There's a difference.

Jolt is more of a drug than sustenance. Yeah, it gives you a blow of caffeine, but it has damn near no nutritional value. (Don't get me wrong, I like Jolt, but it's not what I'd have in place of dinner.)

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Will it hurt my keyboard?

[thinmac]

More important than taste, at least to me, is how many little pieces of food will fall into my keyboard. If it could be eaten in one bite, that might work, but for multi-bite meals, it has to be clean. Ramen is *really* bad for this.

Scott Adams' Motivation

[Erbo]

If you have a look at Chapter 11 of Adams' The Dilbert Future (pages 213-216), you can find his motivation for inventing the Dilberito. Adams starts off by lamenting how difficult it is to figure out what you should eat that's healthy for you, as opposed to, say, finding the right motor oil for your car's engine. He then goes on to say:

Someday, you will be able to buy a burrito-like meal that is engineered as scientifically as a can of motor oil. This burrito-like thing will have just the right combination of food to give you 100 percent of what your body needs.

...

If someone doesn't build this burrito thing...then I'll build it myself. Someone is going to make a trillion dollars selling low-cost, nutritious meals to Induhviduals, and it might as well be me.

So, say what you will about Adams, it seems that, by investing his own money to develop the Dilberito, he's trying to help people eat healthier without having to become "nutrition geeks." The "Dilbert" name and packaging is just a way to market it to people (like sugar-coating on pills, perhaps).

It's a noble goal, whether or not its actual execution is flawed. (And I've never tasted or even seen a Dilberito, so I can't yet judge for myself, but next time I'm in the local King Soopers, I'll have a look for 'em.) So, before you condemn Adams out of hand, ask yourself how healthy you eat on a regular basis (and I know I for one am flawed in that respect). If Adams can leverage the Dilbert brand to get a few more people to eat healthy for once, isn't it worth it?

Eric
--
"Free your code...and the rest will follow."

Dilbert sex dolls -- could happen!

[sumana]

Remember, in one strip several years ago, Dogbert tried to get a date for Dilbert by putting a phone number on a billboard (in the strip). Scott Adams made the mistake of using his own personal fax number for that purpose, and women were calling for days, if not weeks. Adams consequently wrote an essay about Dilbert being the new archetypal stud, since he understands technology and that's what men will need in the Info Age. A woman will be attracted to a man who can survive in the new Darwinism, etc. I think it was published in the New Yorker or something.

So there IS a demand for Dilberts.

Still, one would hope that the accessory would NOT be Dildog...

real hacker eating

[vyesue]

if you're really looking at this from the hacker perspective, you view eating from a utilitarian and pleasure-oriented point of view. first, you need to eat, and second, you can have very happy sensations when you eat certain foods. the utilitarian bit is what makes you want to eat one thing that contains all your vitamins and minerals and whatnot so that you can stay alive as efficiently as possible. the pleasure-oriented part is what make you eat doritoes and coke and unhealthy stuff that tastes yummy.

what I propose is the following - get as many vitamins and minerals as possible through the use of dietary supplements. quite simple - you can eat a handful of pills and never work about scurvy or any other wierd deficiency no matter what other shit you eat.

then you eat a lot of something that fills you up but isnt loaded with fat. I prefer Fla*Vor*Ice, sometimes I switch to bleached white Wonder bread (mmmmmmmm); you might like cheez-its or doritoes or any number of things. IMPORTANT - do not pick something like "pork rinds" or "lard" for this unless you want to turn into a disgusting blob. eat this food all day, every day.

then, every time you feel like eating something else specifically, go get some. i.e., if suddently you want a pastrami sandwich, or some steak, or some carrots, or some tofu, get it. your general sense of fullness will prevent you from pigging out on these sporadic demand-items, but you won't die of protein deficiency or anything of the sort, because when your body needs something, it will tell you.

Re:I can't believe it!

[Accipiter]

what happens when you get too many vitamins?

Nothing bad, usually. In fact, when some vitamins are taken in larger amounts, they actually have preventative effects on the body. Toxic vitamin levels are a possibility, but rare. (300% isn't much of a problem, but when you hit 1000%+, then you may run into problems. Especially with fat-soluable vitamins like A, K, and E.

I'm not a doctor, so don't take the above as a replacement for doctor's advice.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

ulterior motive

[gschmidt]

it's not only vegetarian, it's vegan. as in, no animal products. thus non-dairy cheeses and gluten (in its seasoned form sold as "fake meat.")

the funny thing is.. why does scott adams avoid mentioning this? it's nowhere on the website or in any of the press releases. it's like he's trying to sneak veganity past the unwashed masses. I suppose that's what the "nobody knows how to eat healthily" and "make the world a better place" doublespeak is about.

the other funny thing: my vegan friends tell me that caseinate (one of the main ingredients in the "non-dairy cheese") is milk-derived and not vegan-safe. maybe this is some kind of synthetic casein? maybe he's too vegan for real cheese, but not too vegan for artifical cheese with milk protein?

as far as people pointing out that it's not really a "complete day's nutrition," it's worth noting that the only things they don't have 100%usra of are the things you normally get much too much of. it is *just hard* to live in america and consume less than 100% of your recommended fat, protein, sodium etc intakes -- this is called dieting, and it's not something coders are known for. you wouldn't eat just a burrito in a whole day -- you'd grab some chips and jolt or something. one of these dilberitos plus a serving or two of unhealthy junk food will give you a great approximation of the rda's.

How can such a businessman sell out?

[sumana]

Adams has clearly stated that his first objective has always been to make money. He sounds like an Ayn Rand disciple if you read his interviews. He's never been in it just for the creative urge, so there's no way that this merchandising could be reasonably characterised as 'selling out.'

Remember, Adams has an MBA and has always worked in the business world, and HAS NO ENGINEERING EXPERIENCE. He's not a geek. I don't think he's ever claimed to be. He's looking to make money, and until his cost-benefit analyses tell him that he's overusing the Dilbert trademark and decreasing its appeal, he's continue to paste it on anything he can sell.

dorm life

[Evro]

I'm not one who really ever eats ramen noodles, unless there is *nothing* else to eat. I have about 10 packs of ramen sitting in my drawer, which have all been there for 2 months.

But in response to your question, I think a lot of this junk food ethic comes from college. I live in a dorm and we're not allowed to have hotplates or anything in our rooms (although I do have an "illegal" hotplate, but that doesn't really help prepare a huge meal). There is a kitchen in the building, but I live on the third floor and the kitchen is in the basement, so that's a no-go right there.

When I was on break, I cooked lots and lots. Hot dogs, pasta dishes, fancy meals, steaks, everything. I would love to be able to cook meals all the time but it's just not possible.

I realize many "geeks" (note, I don't really consider myself a true "geek") are no longer in college, but the move from college to work is often a matter of location. They find themselves doing the same thing at work as they did in college and so they fall into the habits they had in college. Pulling an all-nighter to get the server running? Well, eat the Dilberto.

Also, I usually get hungry around 2 am. There aren't many places that deliver at 2 am and preparing a huge dish that late is a pain. So there the Dilberto (or other quick/junk food) comes in handy.

These are just theories, of course.

_________________

Cool. One more thing for me never to eat.

[Dast]

Besides the fact they look disgusting, they are marketed by Scott Adams. I have no respect for that man after the Dilhole lawyer letter. He and his dilbert strip can jump off a cliff.

But all of this is beside the fact. They certainly do not give you 100% of your daily needs:

no caffeine
no alcohol
and no where near enough sugars/fat

That excludes it from being the perfect geek food.

Jargon File says: NO

[sumana]

Jargon File on Geek Food [tuxedo.org]:

.....

For those all-night hacks, pizza and microwaved burritos are big. Interestingly, though the mainstream culture has tended to think of hackers as incorrigible junk-food junkies, many have at least mildly health-foodist attitudes and are fairly discriminating about what they eat. This may be generational; anecdotal evidence suggests that the stereotype was more on the mark before the early 1980s. (Italics mine.)

Geeks' affinity for junk food is a stereotype that has its roots in reality but doesn't stretch its branches far enough to cover us all.

From the health standpoint.

[Mullen]

Okay, not all of us Geeks eat like crap. I am one that tries to eat "right". Ya, I have my overdose of Caffine everyday, but other than that, I eat pretty well.

The Dilberito actually looks like it is "healthy". The Fat content is good amount, and its Saturated Fat is 0 or .5 grams. The Fiber content is pretty good at about 25% DV on average. The Calories count is also well at 310 average per serving. Wash it down with some Caffine product and you would be set for the day.

My only complant is that if you ate 4 of these things with the Nutrent content it has some people might get sick or overdose on Vitamin A and Iron. Although for most Slashdot readers this would not be a problem.

Newton, NJ? And Veggie...

[r2ravens]

Sounds like just the thing for me. I'm a 'not so strict' vegetarian, but my choices are still pretty limited. It's nice to have this option. I'll give them all a try anyway.

And Newton, NJ? Well, that's a helluva nod to Apple, huh? Especially for a discontinued product. :)

I think I see a pattern here... Newton, Apples, Macintosh, Healthy Burritos from Scott Adams, hmmm...

I think I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader...

In any case, they've gotta be better than 'Penguin Patties' (TM) :)

Russ

Why ramen???

[scheme]

Maybe its just me but I never understood why ramen is so popular. If price is a factor then sphagetti or pasta is available for slightly more. It takes about the same time and tastes a lot better. Hell, baked potatoes cook in the same time as ramen and taste much better.

If cost isn't a consideration, something like lamb stew, chili, quiche, etc. take about 10-15 minutes to prepare (they take about 30-60 min to cook, but you can do something else while they're cooking).

I'm not sure where this thing with geeks eating only pizza and ramen comes from. I'm a math/cs major and most of the other physics/math/cs I know don't eat that stuff on a regular basis. At our parties, you're more likely to see stuff like salmon steaks, grilled portabella mushrooms, fresh baked cookies than pizza or ramen.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:whadda ya get if you cross a dildo and a burrit

[quonsar]

CmdrTaco, of course.
fish in a barrel indeed!

======
"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Poor forethought...well, maybe not

[Y]

A lot of my friends and I eat Indian food fairly frequently, and I know one person in particular who carries around a garlic spray (that's right, spray) so he can spray his pizza at meetings where free pizza is to be had. I'm pretty sure he sprays it on other food, too.

Point being that different people have different tastes, and just judging just by the eating habits around my school, Indian would sell fairly well, assuming people want to buy Dilberitos. I'd be willing to wager that there will be new flavors coming out if this initial venture is successful, but it's probably a good idea to invest in a small but varied subset of tastes, test market reaction, and then unroll big-ass product lines. Of course, I'm not an econ major, so I couldn't tell you with certainty.

- Y

I've actually TRIED the dilberitos

[Anonymous Coward]

First: Strict vegetarian, haven't eaten meat in 12 years.

Mexican dilberito: Moderately tasty. Not as good as Amy's Organics burritos.

Garlic and Herb dilberito: Extremely dissapointing. I LOVE garlic, occasionaly even eat a clove raw. This was barely edible, and the garlic and herb sauce was nasty bad.

barbeque: It was ok, but I'm not a huge fan of barbeque.

I haven't tried the Indian yet.

I don't remember exactly how much I paid, but they were not cheap.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:real hacker eating

[Akaji Monkey]

IMPORTANT - do not pick something like "pork rinds" or "lard"

Goldarn it - there goes my idea for the "Porkarito": 1000% of your daily allowance of pork fat in a one-handed easy-to-eat package, with pure lard sauce for that genuine fat flavor.

Re:Why ramen???

[Pathwalker]

I like to cook - I have some portabella mushrooms that I'm planning on using in the next day or two, and I have been giving a lot of thought today on what I want to make for dinner.

I also have a huge stockpile of ramen which I eat often. Here are some reasons I keep eating it:
1. Ramen never goes bad.
If I have a stockpile of ramen, I always have something to eat, even if I've been out of town for a couple of days.

2. If you pick the right brand, it tastes good.
I'm hooked on Tung-I Ramen ( picture [ofdoom.com] ), that stuff actually tastes good; the noodles themselves are flavored, and it comes with several seasoning packets, so you can control the balance of the seasonings.

3. Even if you pick a cheap brand, you can still make it taste good.
Add celery, an egg, etc, and you end up with a decent meal ( picture [ofdoom.com] ).

So, I tend to think of it as a backup food - something halfway decent for me to eat when I don't have anything else.
(If I get really hungry, I have a can of spam. One look at that, and I can think of dozens of things I'd rather eat!)

Geek food?

[erinlee]

I wouldn't call this "geek food." It's more like workaholic yuppie food. Think about it: it's very intentionally healthy, it's trendy (the whole "wraps" thing) and it's fast.

Actually, it's probably something overworked supermoms are going to cram in their kids' faces before they rush them off to soccer practice. I think most people associate food with cartoon characters on it with kiddie stuff. I think that'll happen here too, even if the kids don't find Dilbert all that funny.

I live in Canada though, so it'll probably be a while before those things pop up on the local grocery shelves here. What if it is a success then? What else will we see? Dilbergers? Wally-Os? Alice's Fist-Of-Death hot sauce? I know I've seen Dilbert mints already...

Re:Scott Adams' Motivation

[adamsc]

In what way are the two incompatible? It's quite possible to make a buck and do something you believe is right at the same time.

It seems rather common to assume that anyone who sells something is somehow trying to take advantage of everyone else. Sure, some companies try to screw the consumer at every turn but that no more guarantees that all companies do any more than the existence of murders or farm-animal molesters means all or even most people do such things.

Lastly, remember that Scott Adams has a single product - Dilbert. He makes money using the brand but he'll also lose the most if he damages it. If he wants to use his creation to push vegan food, so be it.

Re:Scott Adams' Motivation

[krh]

While I'd rather not jump into the flame war you seem to have started elsewhere, I feel I need to comment about this. You speak as if 'trying to make money' is wrong, like its a bad thing. How so? This is a capitalist country for a reason; those with money run it. Outside of something derogatory, you don't see a broken 47 year old bum's name being spammed all over large internet sites, now do you?

I have trouble understanding why people dislike making money so much.

Interesting thought

[Frac]

"New Products. Stuff you can buy"

niekze's Slashdot - "We talk about love, friendship, family, happiness, and all things money can't buy!!!"

Haven't I Seen this before?

[HerrNewton]

I remember reading a piece on Scott Adams about a month or two before the animated Dilbert series started airing. IIRC, they had a shot of the packaging mock-up and had a bit from Adams on it. Anyone else remember this? Mmmmmm.... PHB. Pointy-Haired-Burrito.

----

Marketing Marketing Marketing

[Greyfox]

Set up a banner ad on /. and allow your uber-geeks to order them right off the internet with home delivery (Preferably in the dead of night.) One less reason to go into the big blue room! Oh yeah!

Re:An Article Rating system perhaps?

[Frac]

You could "moderate" the articles you like up and those you thought irrevelant down. Then the average /.'er opinion would be known.

HUH? Great, now we have /.ers who decided that they should control what news I read. Moderation is good for sorting more than 50 comments, but why the hell do we need moderation for the 10 articles per day?

Re:Yeah, but...

[turg]

Where's the beef? And whats with the non-dairy cheese? This can't possibly qualify as geek food - its not even close to unhealthy enough. We don't drink coffee and Dew and Jolt becuase we're taking care of our bodies!

That's the beauty of it! One of these dilberitos and all that nutritional stuff is taken care of for the day. You can take even less care about what you eat than you do now if you just have one dilberito a day -- all you have to worry about anymore is getting calories when you start to droop. And which foods are the best source of calories?

Disclaimer: I am not a nutritionist :-)

========
+++For-pay Internet distributed processing. [processtree.com]+++

gourmet cooking for EE majors

[enmity.]

If price is a factor then sphagetti or pasta is available for slightly more. It takes about the same time and tastes a lot better.

Ramen's price is definitely it's biggest benefit. I usually buy mine in packages of twenty for about two dollars. Spaghetti was never this cheap. Also, making spaghetti in a microwave is impossible -- simply too much boiling water is needed. Two cups of water in a Pyrex measuring cup for about two minutes usually does the trick for superheated pseudo-boiling water in my microwave (your mileage may vary.) And I personally think chicken ramen soup tastes pretty good, kinda like Campbell's with a twist.

As for pizza, my freezer's usually stocked with Papa John's leftovers or Bagel Bites. (Unfortunately, the latter are pretty expensive by ramen standards, costing about $2.50 per package, which for all intents and purposes constitutes one serving.)

Sure, steaks and cookies are great for dinner parties, but while studying the night before a midterm or for a quick midnight snack, cold pizza or a bowl of ramen generally holds me over until I can get my hands on real food.

There should be a Surgeon General's warning on those packages, though -- as a result of the "flash-frying" process used to preserve the noodles, a package of ramen usually makes up about 40% of your RDA of saturated fat. Mmmm...

enmity.
'For want of a [microwaveable steak], the whole kingdom was lost.'

Uh yeah like

[blach]

Uh yeah like STEAK.

Acutally this was mostly a joke, don't take it as a personal attack, i can respect your beliefs as long as you respect my love for a breakfast of sausage, bacon, eggs, and milk.

Diet Mountain Dew: Urine of the Gods

[DavidTC]

Some of us, if stuck in the desert with sterile urine and diet Mountain Dew, would drink the urine first. Notice the lack of smiley face signifing a joke at the end of that line. Let me tell you how I meet Mr. Diet Dew.

I had never had DMD before, and I saw a bottle lying on the counter. Not only was it DMD, but it was hot and flat...it was the first drink I've ever spit out, and I spit it out as fast as possible...didn't even turn my head 30 degrees to the sink, I spit it out all over the counter and floor, with some going back in the bottle, and some over the toaster oven....

I drink stale, hot normal Mountain Dew all the time, but if I only had hot, stale DMD in the desert, I would cool myself by pouring it over my body, begin sure to keep my mouth shut.

-David T. C.

Re:An Article Rating system perhaps?

[Frac]

The whole point of having little icons for each topic is that you can avoid complete topics you don't like in your preferences. If I need dogma to dictate my slashdot news, I would be reading GPL/Linux anti-Microsoft news all day long.

Re:the un-doctor's advice in addendum

[Accipiter]

High doses of Vitamin C can lead to Kidney Stones, although since they're water soluable, they pass through sweat and urine. (Large levels of Vitamin C are also dangerous for people who suffer from hemochromatosis (sp?), also known as Iron Overload Disease, causing serious problems, even death. Vitamin C absorbs Iron, and people who suffer from this disease have way too much iron as it is.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Dilbert Zone vs. The Zone

[the red pen]

I think the ultimate geek diet is The Zone Diet. The diet is based on deep scientific research by a geek who actually when to MIT to study nutrition (MIT closed the "Food and Nutrition Science" department in the mid-80's).

Following the zone diet involves geeky calulations and measuring of things. Your kitchen becomes a lab. Barry Sears encourages people to think of food as a psychoactive drug. How much more geeky can you get?

The Dilberito is too high in carbs, too low in protien and the protien is does have is locked in a fiber matrix, making it hard to absorb. It's weird because in the same "Dilbert Future" paragraph that Adams talks about the then-hypothetical food, he also mentions the Zone. I was disappointed to see that the Dilberito is not "Zone Friendly" particularly because it's so difficult for vegitarians to get the protien requirements needed to adhere to the Zone diet.

Why so much god damned sodium?

[SatanLilHlpr]

Subject says it all. (Nearly)

What the hell is the point making something so *almost* healthy, and then ruining it with salt? I appreciate the attempt at vegetarianism, but this isn't quite what I was hoping for.

Re:Scott Adams' Motivation

[niekze]

Im not saying that he is taking advangtage of everyone else. Sure he has the right to do what he is doing.
I just don't see how Dilbert and burrito's are relevant.
If they made a Ford Mustang with a linux logo on it, would you buy it?
Sure its a great idea to make money, and im not questioning that.
I'm questioning the rationality and common sense of those that would buy it.
You remember when you were a kid and you wanted the kid's meal from the restaurant that had the best toy that week?
Thats what this amounts to.
When I have kids, I want them to outgrow that mentality.

(OT)Re: Damn Vegans, go to hell or California

[jacobm]

Some people have strong senses of ethics. Strong enough, in fact, that they're willing to think about what they're doing, even when they're doing something popular. Those people are called vegans. And yes, it bothers us that animals suffer, and we do what we can to make that not happen any more.

Why doesn't suffering bother you? Why don't you do anything about it?

Re:Yeah, but...

[adamsc]

Taco Bell had to make their stuff cheap so people will buy it. Back in high school I could buy like fifteen tacos for six or seven dollars, which made them quite a bit cheaper than everything else around

Even with the specials, TB's prices here are actually higher than most of the corner-taco-shop places when you look at the food/dollar ratio. Sure, I might have to pay an whopping $2.50 for a carne-asada burrito but it's big enough to score a touchdown with and there is simply no comparison on flavor.

I'm constantly amazed that TB still does business in this area. My guess is that they're banking on the "Bad at Math" segment of the population who will decide that a 59 cent micro-taco is a great deal.

Re:OT: protein?! Another victim!

[kevin805]

Yeah, but most junk food is fat and carbo rich. High protein is a good idea, because when you balance it with your latte and blueberry muffin breakfast, your almost eating healthy.

I'm going to find a 7-11 that carries these ASAP.

--Kevin

Re:Hold it.....

[Sentry21]

While the page *does* say that it provides 100% of many vitamins and minerals, the above is clearly not 100%.

True, but really, how easy do you think it is to make a microwavable burrito that completely fills every dietary requirement the average person has by just eating one a day?

Besides, I don't know about the rest of you geeks, but *this* geek would prefer to eat more than one burrito a day.

If something with "100% of your Daily Requirements" were the ultimate geek food, Total would be much more popular than ramen.

Again, I don't know about your local geek cultures, but all the ones I've been in (as I've moved) have required that geek foods be long-term (so that after a big contract, you can buy bulk), microwavable (a hot meal and a warm monitor, what combo), and taste good.

IMHO, Total does not taste good.

Besides, cereal is so... ungeekly, especially while coding late at night.

Combine this with some microwavable pasta or entrees or something that has some protien, and you're set for life. A deep freeze and a microwave, that's all you need.

~Sentry21~

Re:MetRx bars

[spinkham]

Try Cliff bars..
Harder to find, but better for you and taste much darn better.

Re:Im getting tired of this crap /.

[vyesue]

I really don't give a fuck what the average /. reader thinks about an article. And since I can READ, I don't have to randomly click on articles; I can just click on the ones that interest me. Theres no reason for articles to be moderated, since you can scan all the articles extremely quickly (assuming you can read; perhaps you can't) and decide which you want to look at.

Are you really this stupid?

Re:ulterior motive

[kevin805]

Ascorbic Acid I think is Vitamin C. Beta Carotene I think is one of the B vitamins. Ferric-III-Orthophosphate is Iron and Phosphorus. Niacinamide is Niacin, good for you. Manganese, Thiamin and Chromium are necessary in small amounts. Folic acid is an anti-oxidant. Sodium Molybdate and Sodium Selenite contain Molybdinum and Selenium, which are needed in really really small doses (like several micrograms a day).

Some of them you could do without for a long time without any bad effects. Some of them you'd start to feel pretty shitty in a week without. Some of them will cause your skin to turn orange or cause liver failure in high enough doses.

Re:real hacker eating

[vyesue]

nothing wrong with porkaritos for those times when you just gotta have a little pork fat, tho. and since youre full of flavorice, you wont gorge yourself often.

:D

Re:Why ramen???

[confidential]

*shrug* i can only speak for myself, but i eat ramen because...

• Cheap - $0.80 a block or $2 for a 24 pack (an actual sale i witnessed a few weeks ago
• good - debatable... but i like it
• quick - most people say you can make pasta the same speed, but what you do is microwave it (put in a tupperware container about the same size as the block, fill to the top of the block, add powder, then cover and microwave for 5 mins)
• did i mention cheap?
• never goes bad
• can eat it anytime - i know many people who eat the blocks dry and raw... *cringe*
• oh yea... it's cheap too

so basically, those are just my opinions, you can ignore them if you wish.


-confidential

Second-guessing Adams' marketing strategy

[Erbo]

While I can't presume to speak for Adams, using the Dilbert "brand name" for Dilberitos would seem to fit in with his overall strategy of bringing healthy foods to more people.

Think about it. If he were to have refrained from using the name "Dilberitos" and just called them "Scott Adams' Healthy Burritos" (or something along those lines), it seems likely that his primary response would be from people who already consume health food. People who aren't inclined to eat health food probably wouldn't try them. His product would become, basically, a "me-too" product, and would probably wind up losing out in the end to other, more popular or established brands. (Competition in the food business is murder, margins are generally low, and brand recognition is extremely important.)

On the other hand, most people in the United States have undoubtedly heard of Dilbert, via the comic strip, books, TV show, Web site, T-shirts, coffee mugs, you name it. The "Dilbert" brand, in the case of Dilberitos, is being used as a "hook" (to put it in entertainment industry terms). Seeing the name "Dilbert" on a food product might make some people more inclined to buy it, regardless of the fact that it's a healthy food...and if enough people buy and consume Dilberitos who might not have bought and consumed healthy foods otherwise, then Adams has achieved his goal, and his marketing strategy is vindicated thereby.

And, if people keep buying Dilberitos, Scott Adams makes money. As others in this thread have pointed out, this is not a bad thing. (At the risk of diverging from the topic at hand, I might note that, proverbially, it is "the love of money," not "money" itself, that is considered "the root of all evil." Money itself is a morally neutral tool, which may be used for either good or evil purposes.) And, if people don't buy Dilberitos, he doesn't make money, and he runs the risk of damaging the "Dilbert brand" and causing a backlash among Dilbert's hardcore fans. The point is, Adams believes strongly enough in this idea that he is willing to back it with, not only his own money, but the strength of the "Dilbert" brand, and I for one applaud the courage of his convictions.

Eric
--
"Free your code...and the rest will follow."

A correction

[Erbo]

I probably should have looked at the Web site first...it looks like I'll have to go to Cub Foods or maybe Safeway to find Dilberitos, not King Soopers. Just a small correction for those of you also in Colorado...

Eric
--
"Free your code...and the rest will follow."

"Vegan-safe"

[kevin805]

This is something I never understood about vegans. I can understand saying "I don't eat meat because it's disgusting/it's cruel to animals". I don't understand the "please, can you go check if this may have been cooked in pan that had ever been used to cook meat?" paranoia. Could someone explain to me why vegans have a religious aversion to animals products? That is, why do they feel compelled to check so thoroughly that something doesn't have meat in it?

Also, what's with the refined sugar thing? Is it true that vegans don't eat it because they think it involves animal products?

Any vegans out there who can enlighten?

--Kevin

Re:ulterior motive

[jacobm]

He's probably not making a big deal out of it because people get all weird when you tell them they're eating vegan food, as if it's a raw block of tofu or something. But if you just make food, and it's vegan, then the vegans will know (we read labels, and we notice when somebody uses textured vegetable protein) and nobody who'd get freaked out about it irrationally will be any the wiser. And everybody's happy. Makes sense to me!

vegan food is unhealthy

[mangu]

We, humans, evolved as omnivorous animals. This gives us the advantage to survive with many different diets, we don't need a particular kind of food, which is why our species have spread all over the world.

But this doesn't mean we can simply eliminate one important ingredient from our diet indefinitely without any ill effects. We *need* animal products, for calcium, proteins, and some enzymes. Sure, we can get those from vegetal products too, but our bodies aren't optimized for a vegetarian diet. In the long run, we will have health problems if we don't consume any animal products.

Animal products do have unhealthy components in them, so we should not abuse them. Balance is the key. If you are serious about not consuming *anything* at all that has deleterious side effects, you should learn to live without oxygen. It's the presence of oxygen in the body that creates the free radicals that are among the more important causes of aging.

I have a friend who had a strictly vegan diet, "scientifically" balanced, for twenty years. One day, her shoe got stuck in a crack in the pavement and she broke her leg. She was two months in bed, and has needed crutches for walking since then, over six months ago. A healthy carnivore person would get a slightly sore ankle from the same stumble. It's all a matter of not having the right enzymes to digest calcium. If you consume large amounts of calcium from vegetable sources, all you will get from that are gallstones. There are some enzymes the human body needs to digest calcium that can't be found in any vegetable food.

Moderators, take note:
1)Read the moderation guidelines before moderating anything

Re:Cap'n Crunch? How about King Vitamin!

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

Actually, the cereal you're thinking of was called "King Vitaman." I vaguely remember that being available when I was a kid, but I never had the pleasure(?) of trying it.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

Re:Scott Adams' Motivation

[adamsc]

Im not saying that he is taking advangtage of everyone else. Sure he has the right to do what he is doing. I just don't see how Dilbert and burrito's are relevant.

In this case, I think they are related in the sense that Scott Adams is a noted vegan promoting vegan burritos. This isn't inconsistent with his books & some of the cartoons cartoons.

If they made a Ford Mustang with a linux logo on it, would you buy it?

Not because of the logo. If it was a decent car at a decent price, perhaps.

RE: Pull Your Head From Your Ass!

[tilleyrw]

Read "Realities For The 90s" from EarthSave and gain some factual knowledge regarding a vegetarian diet!!!

What you have said is incorrect (so much bullshit if this were RANT mode :).

Visit my page of vegetarian resources [earthlink.net] and read Realities [earthlink.net] if you wish to learn something
that has not been influenced by the Beef, Egg, and Dairy Council as it seems your current information has been.

To address your claims regarding calcium, a diet consisting of animal protien will cause calcium to be extracted from a person's bones to assist in digestion of the highly concentrated protein. Green cruciferous vegetables contain far more calcium than can ever be obtained from cow milk. Do some research for Chrissakes before you come off sounding like an idiot!

Thank you for your time.

That's horrifying, EAT MORE!

[TheDullBlade]

I'm the same height and weigh about 160 lbs, and I thought I weighed a bit too little, but you must look like a concentration camp victim. By whatever you believe in, man, eat something! It's not a small problem to joke about, you are starving yourself, and it's going to cause problems.

Try keeping a bag of unsalted prezels and a jar of peanut butter at your desk while you work, and learn to munch without thinking about it. Get in the habit of eating three hearty squares per day (or three light meals plus three substantial snacks, if you don't like stuffing yourself), whether you feel like it or not.

If you take a little exercise, too, you'll put on pure muscle, not fat. Two or three times a week, deadlift (that's just grabbing a barbell that's on the floor - keep your back straight and lift with your hips! - and standing up while holding it) with as much weight as you can manage for twenty repetitions (start with the bare bar and add five pounds each time until you can't finish the 20), do as many pushups as you can, then do as many sit-ups as you can. It'll take about 10 minutes each time, and you won't believe the difference it makes in the way you feel (after six months or so, you'll want to balance the program out with some chin-ups and overhead barbell presses and such to keep your body balanced, but keep it simple when you're starting out).

If you don't have easy access to weights, you can do just fine with floor exercises, though you have to learn a bit of technique. The exercises described here [mattfurey.com] are really top notch, though you can get by with the simple exercises you learned in grade school. I would, however, recommend getting a length of bungee cord and doing "pull the bow" and "draw the sword" exercises with it, to balance out the muscles in your shoulders and upper back (watch that you don't snap yourself in the face with it though; goggles are a good idea).

Re: Pull Your Head From Your Ass!

[wfberg]

Actually IIRC a stricly vegan meal does lack a handful of things that your body needs.. Also, IIRC that would be solved by getting those trace-amounts of stuff into your diet by either eating a small amount of animal product once a month or by taking the stuff in chemically synthesized form, i.e. pills..

Dunno what the things that lacked were.. I remember them being entirely unspectacular.. Some amino-acids or other..

Can any-one back this up?
--

Re:Wait, you can *eat* ramen?

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

It's actually a traditional Japanese noodle, and is quite good as a basis for various recipes. Usually I throw out the "flavor" packet (MSG gives me migraines) and use the noodles as a base for some Japanese-style dish, such as teriyaki beef or the like. Plenty of easy-but-good cooking opportunities there. Here's my favorite easy Ramen-based soup recipe:

One package ramen noodles
One Steak-um philly steak
One egg, beaten
Green onions, finely chopped
Soy sauce

Bring 2 cups water to a boil. Add ramen noodles, stir occasionally for two and a half minutes. While noodles are cooking, cut philly steak into strips and fry in its own juices; drain fat. Pour egg into noodles and stir for 30 seconds, reduce heat, add steak and onions. Add soy sauce to taste (I usually use 2-3 tablespoons), remove from heat, and serve. Serves 1.

I've been thinking of starting up an open recipe archive which caters to the geek population (none of that "better homes and gardens"-type crap as you find on recipes.com and the like). Anyone interested?
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

Re:Why ramen???

[Pathwalker]

If you dont like that much preperation, try the local asian food market for some import ramen. I reccomend KimChi Spicy Bowl Noodle.

I second this - that stuff rocks! I'm lucky enough to have an asian food market across the street [mapblast.com] from me so I get to experience a wide variety of dried noodle products!

One that I've been eating a lot lately is called "Super Bowl" ( picture [ofdoom.com] ). It's pretty good - several chunks of noodles, several seasoning packets, and a plastic fork enclosed in a handy container. One of these will fill me up when I've forgotten to eat all day, and I need to eat something fast.

So why the vegan cheese?

[hedgehog_uk]

Gods, and I thought that I was cynical.

If he was just out to make money, probably the last ingredient he would use would be a vegan cheese-substitute. It would probably be a damn sight easier (& cheaper) to use normal cheese - lots of cheese is made with vegetarian rennet, so using veggie cheese wouldn't have been a problem. But these things are deliberately vegan - not something that's normally a money-making strategy. If he was just trying to rake in the cash, they'd probably simply be junk food, without the vitamins & other (supposedly) healthy stuff.

If they sell 'em in the UK, I'll try 'em. They sound & look pretty good.

HH
--

Re:vegan food is unhealthy

[Tom Bombadill]

Have to agree here. Removing meat from the diet is ultimately a mistake. I too have a co-worker who broke her ankle by merely stumbling. Took her far too long to recover. You are just missing too many nutrients that are needed by our omviorius metabolism. I have been weight training / bodybuilding for 15 years now, 3 months of which I tried to go meatless. My strength and recovery ability were nearly halved. Stamina went way, way down. When I eat meat regularly I am noticably stronger. From a personal point of view, I found vegatarianism unsuccesfull. I have also yet to meet a vegan who exhibits the same strength and anerobic muscular stamina of a meat-eater. The protiens and amino acid ratios are incomplete, even with carefull blending. The amino peptide chains are not as easily assimilated and metabolised. There is no other source for creatine, crucial for ATP and mitochondrial energy. There are too many macro and micronutrients in meat that are still not fully understood to try to match the ratios and nutrients otherwise. I just wish there was a nice high protein, high fat, no carb nutrient bar that didn't cost $3.

Re:How can such a businessman sell out?

[DHartung]

>Remember, Adams has an MBA and has always worked in the business world, and HAS NO ENGINEERING EXPERIENCE.
>He's not a geek. I don't think he's ever claimed to be.

I would say that's a huge overinterpretation of the evidence. It's pretty clear that he has a strong understanding of computers, the internet, product engineering, project management, and other disciplines gained from a career working deep within a telecommunications corporation. I find it surprising that a slashdotter would insist on an engineering degree as evidence of competence in the profession.

I don't think he's ever claimed to be a trained electronics or telecom engineer .... but he's most certainly a geek /par excellence/.

It is true that he's much more brazen about making money than your average geek. Big deal; I don't care whether he lives in a hut on a mountaintop, or has a Hollywood mansion full of naked women, as long as the strip's funny.
----

Re:Spin control

[jacobm]

What's-his-name... Mark Mathew Braunstein, the guy who wrote Radical Vegetarianism, briefly made the point you make- some people just can't eat a completely vegetarian diet, and for them it makes sense to continue to eat meat. Of course, Braunstein is a loon (for other reasons), but it's a good point anyway.

On the other hand, most people can do just fine on a careful vegan diet. Dwelling on the fact that some people CAN'T do it for health reasons just makes it that much easier for some idiot to say, "Well, I just can't do it either. I've GOT to have my cheeseburger!" Also, some people think that vegetables are deficient when in fact it's just the way they're eating. Iron and calcium are good examples- there are wonderfully good vegetable sources of both, but a lot of vegetarians/vegans find themselves deficient because they don't eat well-balanced foods. (Amazingly, going to McDonald's and ordering just the french fries and coke is not the path to perfect health.)

So perhaps I was simplifying things a bit much. But I do actually think that "it hurts animals, so don't do it" is a pretty compelling argument, if fleshed out a bit more (but it doesn't need much more fleshing out- it's not a complicated idea.) On the other hand, what do you expect in a reply to a message titled "vegans can go to hell or California"?

Re:Food costs

[adamsc]

...are tied to local markets to the point where I think we're talking apples and oranges (no pun). Here even your standard fast food is like 7 bucks a meal (sandwich, fries, drink), so four for Taco Hell (3 tacos, nachos, drink) was a godsend. I say was because they're prices are nickel-and-diming up to the same rate as the other guys.

Quite true. I've noticed that as well, particularly with the places where the cheap items keep shrinking or becoming blander, in an effort to get the guy who came in for the .39 Budget Special to spring for the 1.69 Ultra Jumbo Xtreme Special.

Dilberito == Frozen Burrito + Multivitamin;

[rsborg]

Someone please tell me, what is the difference between one of these dilberitos (mexican flavor, for example) and the joyous combination of:

1 equally sized burrito + 1 centrum pill?

(other than the extra marketing flavor)

Besides, I am a bit suspicious (read: I prefer to avoid them if at all possible) of the following ingredients:

• sodium casseinate
• spices (anyone, wtf are 'spices'? Why don't they just list the actual spices cumin, basil, etc.?) Methinks this is a euphemism for MSG

Re:Ramen noodles will still rule.

[Chris Johnson]

I like burritos, but only _cheap_ burritos >:) I used to be able to get this brand of freezer burritos in big long sacks- man, I miss those. Currently I'm occasionally buying another brand of cheap freezer burrito, but though the Cheap Burrito Flavor (tm) is still right, the new kind (Tina's Beef And Bean Green Chili) tends to have bits of bone in it, which is extremely nasty. I don't want it _that_ cheap thank you ;P :) The other kind (Los Campanas?) had cheaper packaging, but never contained unwanted bits :)

Vegan diet makes you nervous!

[mangu]

Your diet seems to be lacking in the aminoacid tryptophan, which is present in milk. Tryptophan is one of the so-called "essential" aminoacids, which humans cannot synthesize and need it from external sources. It is not present in plant proteins, so you need an animal source.

It is a precursor of serotonin, a neurotransmitter whose unbalance may cause you to fall into uncontrollable rants from time to time...

I said: If you consume large amounts of calcium from vegetable sources, all you will get from that are gallstones.

You said: Green cruciferous vegetables contain far more calcium than can ever be obtained from cow milk.

At least, in this point you don't seem to disagree with me. We both said that one *CAN* get large amounts of calcium from vegetable sources.

Moderators, take note:
1)Read the moderation guidelines before moderating anything

Falls well short of its goal.

[TheDullBlade]

I remember the book, and what he was talking about wasn't a snack with synthetic vitamins mixed in, but a one-stop solution for healthy eating, for the lazy geek who doesn't care too much about variety in his food.

There isn't enough protein, and too many of the calories are from carbohydrates. You can't just eat three of these things per day and have an ideal diet, which was the idea (would it even be safe, with 100% of the recommended intake of so many nutrients?). You have to eat other foods in appropriate quantities.

This doesn't really simplify anything, unless you think multivitamin pills are too complicated.

spices

[Evro]

I think the reason they list "spices" is so that they don't have to give away their "secret ingredients." If they listed exactly what was in it, it would be easy to make something that tastes exactly like it (for better or worse). I could be wrong here but it is a somewhat logical explanation.

_________________

Sour cream.

[Chris Johnson]

Seriously. I swear by this for macaroni and cheese products :)

Whether it's classic kraft orange, or something nifty like Annie's Alfredo (a personal favorite), I use the prescribed amount of butter and substitute sour cream for milk. It's richer and more hearty, and also sour cream has less lactose than skim milk (sounds nuts, but think about it, lactose is a sugar). So mac and cheese made with sour cream is less likely to act like a pipe bomb in your digestion if you are lactose intolerant! :)

Re:Wait, you can *eat* ramen?

[Pascal Q. Porcupine]

And, of course, being open source, people can submit patches to it, like the one I immediately got sent after posting this recipe, suggesting adding mirin and bonito flakes to the broth. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine [nmsu.edu].

Re:vegan food is unhealthy IF DONE IMPROPERLY

[tordia]

This is kind of a reply to several of the comments under this one (as well as this one), but I put it here, so more people would read it (hopefully).

Granted it's not easy to live on a vegan diet, but it is possible. It takes time to prepare meals and make sure that you get all of the stuff you need. If someone is willing to make these sacrifices, there's no reason they can't live a healthy life.

I have been vegan for two years and I still perform all of the physical activity that I used to. I haven't slowed down, at least from I can tell (measured by comparing my performance with my meat-eating friends). I really do think it's possible that you can be a vegan and maintain proper fitness, stamina, and strength. As some proof to that, the only 5-time winner of the Ironman Triathalon (or at least he was the only 5-time winner when I first heard about this 2 years ago), Dave Scott, is vegan. I think it takes some stamina and strength to swim 2 miles, run 26+ miles, and bike however-the-hell-far-they-bike miles. I realize that this is only one example, but it's a pretty high-profile one. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who could serve as examples, but aren't as well known.

I'd write more, but I have to go have supper. I think tonight I'll have some vegan burgers and some peas.

Gourmet geeking

[Chris Johnson]

I find that when I make tasty good food that's a whole real meal- it turns into a combination of work and art and recreation and takes up huge amounts of time and energy and attention. :)

For instance, I treat the humble taco like this- I'll fuss around for an hour dicing tomatoes and shredding cheese and ripping lettuce into neat little pieces and cooking a beef filling based on the way they used to make the Old El Paso mix (which was _ruined_ in recent years- gah!) from scratch or semi-scratch. Or I'll make a stirfry curry chicken dish that involves breading chicken slices and some peanuts with straight curry powder and making rice and presoaking raisins to mix with the rice, all to be mixed with mango chutney. There aren't a huge number of recipes, but the common factor is: they taste good, and take maybe an hour or more to prepare. Which is _normal_ for really posh food when you have to dice fresh tomatoes or cut fresh gourmet Bell and Evans organic chicken breast into stirfry slices and bread them each individually in a big bowl of curry powder.

Therefore, this explains why I will also be found eating Ramen (after my Dad took me out to a noodle restaraunt- before that, I wouldn't touch Ramen, but that's when I discovered oriental noodles had an interesting style all their own), or freezer burritos (my attempts at making my own gourmet freezer burritos have not really measured up to _cheap_ freezer burritos- some things are meant to be cheap, not posh), or mac and cheese (which I will put sour cream and nice butter into, tho) or even eating raw spaghettios out of the can (the _serious_ don't-distract-me-with-meatspace dinner).

I like the idea that I epitomize _both_ extremes ;)

Re:I'm 5'11" and 113 pounds

[Mullen]

You know you weigh less than my WARM UP weights I toss around at the gym!?!?!?!

Please, eat!

A vegan trying to enlighten ;)

[MarcoAtWork]

* Regarding these snacks:

two of them seem to be vegan, two of them are not (since like somebody noticed above, they contain caseinate which is a milk byproduct).

* Regarding sugar:

Besides the fact that a significant percentage of sugar processing plant use bone char to whiten the sugar (an inherently non-vegan process) even non vegans should really really read this book:

Sugar Blues [amazon.com]

this will explain a lot why many people are finally saying 'no' to more or less poorly disguised sugar (molasses, cane juice, brown sugar,...).

Fortunately there are many alternatives, it just takes a little bit more label reading when shopping, for example, for an extremely yummy vegan friendly ice cream, one should try Sweet Nothings [turtlemountain.com] besides being very low cal and non fat and no white sugar it tastes extremely delicious.

* Regarding vegans who are paranoid about items that even touched meat.

I am one of those, if there is even a slight suspicion that something either contains or might have come in contact with animal products, I won't eat it, it's as simple as that. At first this was a learned behaviour, since I was definitely not born vegan, but now it's completely automatic. Just thinking about eating non vegan makes me sick, and even some vegan foods like boca burgers [bocaburger.net] don't satisfy me as much, because they taste too much like meat (which is a plus for meat eaters trying to make the transition).

Last but not least, I invite all of you to read a passage of this translation of the Bhagavad Gita which might shed some more light on the fact that many people pay a lot of attention not only to the results (i.e. the food that one eats) but to the means also (i.e. how the food is prepared and where).

peace


"Arjuna! Food is the chief formative force. The soiled mind dulls the brilliance of moral excellence; how can a muddy lake reflect clearly? The Divine cannot be reflected in the wicked or vicious mind. Food makes man strong in body; the body is intimately connected with the mind. Strength of mind depends upon strength of body too. Moral conduct, good habits, spiritual effort, depend upon the quality of the food; diseases, mental weakness, spiritual slackness- all are produced by faulty food".

"Krishna?" asked Arjuna, "pray, tell me the constituents of satvic, rajasic and tamasic foods".

"Arjuna! Food, to be satvic, should be capable of strengthening the mind as well the body It should not be too salty, too hot, too bitter, too sweet or too sour. It should not be taken while steaming hot. Food which fans the flames of thirst should be avoided. The general principle is that there should be a limit, a restraint. Food cooked in water should not be used the next day: it becomes harmful. Even fried articles should be consumed before they develop unpleasant odours Rajasic food is the opposite of satvic. It is too salty, too sweet, too hot, too sour, too odorous. Such food excites and intoxicates"

"Lord, excuse me if I appear impertinent; I ask with a desire to know, that is all. By merely a change in food habits, can character be changed from one guna to another? Or has something more to be done to supplement the purification process? Tell me if there is anything more".

"My dear brother-in-law, if transformation of character were so easy, wickedness and vice, so characteristic of the danava nature, could have been wiped off the surface of the earth in a trice. Of course, there are more things to be done. Listen.

There are three kinds of purities to be observed: purity of provision, purity of the vessel in which the food is prepared, and purity of the persons serving the prepared food.

It is not enough if the provisions are pure and of good quality. They should have been procured by fair means; no unfair, unjust, untrue earnings should be used for one's maintenance. These are fouled at the very source The source as well as the course and the goal must all be equally pure The vessel must be clean, free from tarnish. The person who serves must not only be clean in dress, but clean in habits, character and conduct. He should be free from hate, anger, worry and indifference while serving the dishes; he should be cheerful and fresh. And he must be humble and full of love. While attending upon those who are eating he should not allow his mind to dwell on wicked or vicious ideas. Mere physical cleanliness or charm is no compensation for evil thoughts and habits. The sadhaka who has to secure concentration has to be careful about these restrictions. Otherwise, during dhyanam, the subtle influences of the wicked thoughts of the cook and the servers will haunt the sadhaka. Care should be taken to have only virtuous individuals around. Outer charm, professional excellence, reduced wages, these should not be allowed to prejudice you in favour of harmful cooks and attendants. Examine carefully their habits and their character.

The food you eat is such important constituent of the physical and mental stuff with which you have to struggle in the spiritual field. Purity of mind can be and has to be supplemented by bodily purity as well as purity in its important function, speech That is the real tapas- physical, mental and vocal. The mind should be free from anxiety and worry, hate and fear, greed and pride. lt should be saturated with love for all beings.

It has to dwell in God. It has to be restrained from pursuing objective pleasures. No lower thought should be allowed to creep in; all thoughts must be directed towards the elevation of the individual to higher planes. This is the proper tapas of the mind, or manas.

Now for physical tapas. Use the body and its strength and capabilities for the service of others, for the worship of the Lord, for the singing of His Glory, for visiting places hallowed by His Name, for regulated exercises in breath control, for holding the senses away from deleterious paths, and for treading the path of God. The service of the sick and the distressed, the observance of moral codes and such beneficial acts must make it sacrosanct.

Vocal tapas too has to be engaged in. Avoid talking too much: desist from false statements, do not take delight in back-biting and in scandal-mongering; never speak harshly; speak softly and sweetly; speak with the memory of Madhava ever in the background of the mind. Of these three, physical tapas, mental tapas and vocal tapas, even if one is absent, the atmic effulgence (atmajyoti) cannot radiate light. The lamp, the wick and the oil are all essential for a light; the body is the lamp, the mind is the oil, and the tongue is the wick. All three must be in good order.

Some pious people consider that acts of charity are also physical tapas. It is good that they think so, but, when doing charity, one has to do so after pondering over the place, the time and the nature of the recipient. For example, charities for schools should be given at places where there have been no schools until then; hospitals have to be established in areas where diseases are rampant; hunger has to be appeased where famine conditions have been caused by floods or droughts. The nature and condition of the recipients have to be considered while imparting teaching of dharma and Brahmavidya, and while doing service of various kinds.

The charitable act that removes from a person the deficiency that is most harmful to his progress is called satvic".

"Krishna", interrupted Arjuna, "May I ask a question here? Charity, however done, is charity, is it not? Why do you distinguish them by satvic, rajasic and tamasic? Are there any such? "

Krishna answered, "Of course there are. Among those who donate for charities, most are anxious to get name and fame; that is the motive for the act. They are after something in return for what they offer. Very few desire the grace of the Lord, and nothing else. Gifts made with that one end in view. to receive the grace of the Lord, are satvic. Gifts made expecting something in return, like fame and publicity, esteem and power, or made in a huff, or made reluctantly under pressure, these are to be classed as rajasic"

"Charity should be given with reverence and faith. It should not be just thrown in the face of the recipient. Nor should it be given to an undeserving person or at an inopportune moment. Food for the overfed is a burden, not a boon. Hospitals in places that are inaccessible are as good as charity thrown away. Such benefitless and wasteful charity is called tamasic. While engaged in dana, or charity, one has to be very vigilant. You should not scatter it to whomsoever pleads for it; nor can you shower it on all kinds of places. Be careful that you remember the three types mentioned by Me and then do as seems most proper. The gift you make must not be for name or fame; it should have no motive of pomp or publicity; it should be purposeful and useful. In all acts, the satvic attitude is best. This attitude must permeate all acts, seeing, hearing or speaking".

USRDA

[taofox]

Not to blow anybodies mind but US Recommended Daily Allowances are whack. The numbers are artifically low for quite a few catagories due to pressure put on the FDA by corporate food supply lobbies. The processesing of some of your favorite foodstuffs leeches quite a bit of the nutrients from them so therefore the companies are required to reintroduce the nutrients back into it. Now doesn't seem likely they are going to try as hard as they can to keep those requirements as low as possible? Of course it does. If you want some hard facts on the subject, please take the time to look them up. I have not done so, although I have a nutritionist who guides me in this regard.

Augh! You mentioned them!

[Chris Johnson]

Pizza Rolls!

I used to madly love Pizza Rolls. Not just any sort, but Three Cheese Pizza Rolls. They _ruled_. They were _perfect_ and yummy and actually somewhat filling and had serious pretensions of being Real Food, and I bought 'em constantly.

Then, some years ago, the company improved them by taking out most of the cheese product, changing the name to 'Cheese' from 'Three Cheese', increasing the amount of tomato stuff by making it more watery and thin, and adding specks of black stuff to it. It was _horrible_ and clearly cheaper to make. The shareholders must have been well pleased. I quit buying the things- even now, years later, I will occasionally pick up a bag of 'em as a sort of salute to what they used to be, but the yumminess is really pretty completely gone.

If anyone has a cache of Three Cheese Pizza Rolls somewhere, put 'em up on eBay and point me at 'em? Nostalgia is worth any price. Same goes for original sugar-based (see: Canadian) Coca-Cola. I think if I remember correctly Totino's Party Pizza also was changed horribly from its original junkfood yumminess, but in a less sweeping manner.

Ya know, if these companies didn't have shareholders, they might be a little less pressured to change things which sell (to try and knock off a few cents) while clinging to their tortured userbase at the same time...

You know just enough...

[autechre]

To be dangerous.

Many negative effects have been linked to the consumption of dairy products. My mother and brother would both get ear infections during the winter, but not if they stopped drinking milk.

Calcium is useless if you are not able to absorb it. Humans don't need more calcium, they need the magnesium to be able to make use of the calcium.

We are the only species that drinks the milk of another species (no, ants+aphids don't count), and we are the only ones that are never weaned away from it.

Also, tryptophan is NOT found only in milk. Bananas are one example of a tasty fruit product with tryptophan; there are many others, but those can be readily found in books, so I will not list them here.

There have also been studies showing a link between blood type and diet. Such studies find that I, with my type ARh- blood, cannot process animal proteins effectively, and that it is natural for me to become a vegetarian. Since (mostly) eliminating animal sources and caffeine from my diet, I have had far more energy, a better mood, and lost weight, despite no other lifestyle changes. I am not "on a diet", I "have a diet"...I still eat large quantities of food, it's just mostly carbohydrates and vegetables.

It is true that SOME people are not "made" to be vegetarians. My mother feels very faint after about 2 weeks of vegetarianism, so it is not the right choice for her. However, it has done good things for me, and I have no interest in going back. It actually began when I noticed that the digestion of animal products was hard on me when I was ill, but if I stuck to beans/pasta/etc., I was fine. I concluded that it probably wasn't so great for me even when I WASN'T sick...my vegetarianism (and near-veganism) is almost entirely dietary, and has little to do with cute, fuzzy animals.

I strongly suggest that you take care in what you express to be factual. There is not one "right" diet for all human beings, and any attempt to make such sweeping statements is doomed. Yes, your friend may have had a "scientifically balanced diet", but obviously it was not balanced FOR HER. "Modern medicine" still does not really understand the human body.

Re:Cap'n Crunch? How about King Vitamin!

[generic-man]

Dude.

A couple of weeks ago I saw a box of King Vitaman at Giant Eagle here in Pittsburgh. I didn't think anything of it -- it looked like one of those generic store brand cereals like "Crisped Rice" and "Fruit Rings."

Wrong

[/]

The daily requirement for tryptophan is around 500mg, which is readily available from plant sources. Here are some such plant sources (source == Heinz Handbook of Nutrition):

wheat 150-170mg
peas 251mg
soybeans 526mg
pumpkin seeds 560mg
cottonseed flour and meal 591mg
sunflower seed meal 589mg

And useable calcium can be gotten from plant sources. Perhaps not spinach, but brocolli will do nicely.

mostly B12

[/]

Pretty much the only nutrient that's scarce outside of animal products is B12. The bacteria in your gut will supply 25% or so of your daily requirement, and the rest you can get from pills or fortified foods, both of which are bacterial in origin -- soy milks (Whitewave's Silk, WOOHOOO!) often provide 50% of your daily requirement.

There's some disagreement as to whether spirulina and tempeh provide actual useful-for-human-consumption B12 or just "B12 analog" (which is useless to humans but is counted as B12 owing to the nature of the test used).

If you're careful about your diet, you can do just fine as a vegan. If you're an average ovolacto vegetarian (eats eggs & milk), it's pretty much impossible to screw up.

Re:"Vegan-safe"

[/]

For some people it is a religious thing. Plenty of religions ask for the stringency you're describing (Judaism, Seventh Day Adventism, etc.) Mostly, though, it's just a matter of personal disgust -- food residues are often hard to get entirely off plenty of types of cookware, short of using a blowtorch. It's the same reasoning that makes most people (without religious objection) decide not to eat roadkill or their dead pets.

Re:Wrong

[mangu]

And useable calcium can be gotten from plant sources. Perhaps not spinach, but brocolli will do nicely.

The problem is which molecules contain the calcium. Certain vegetables, tomatoes for instance, contain relatively large amounts of oxalic acid. Combined with calcium from plants, this results in calcium oxalate, which crystalizes into stones at the kidneys and gallbladder.

Calcium from animal proteins is less subject to this effect, since it is contained in large molecular weight proteins, which do not allow it to combine as readily with the oxalic acid. So, here's a tip for you vegans with kidney or gall stones: avoid eating tomatoes and broccoli in the same meal.

Moderators, take note:
1)Read the moderation guidelines before moderating anything

Re:You know just enough...

[Fyndo]

We are the only species that drinks the milk of another species (no, ants+aphids don't count), and we are the only ones that are never weaned away from it.

And the only ones to eat plants we grew (no, ants don't count here either). We are the only animals to cook or season their food...

I happen to like milk. Prolly drink too much, but that has nothing to do with what other animals do what.

"Modern medicine" still does not really understand the human body.

I'll buy that, but I'll posit that the biological/medical establishment understands it better than anyone else....

Propaganda vs. propaganda, lies vs. lies

[TheDullBlade]

Everyone has "studies" and "facts" supporting their claims, but most of it is just sophistry to support emotional judgements.

If you want real truth about nutrition, just look at the diets of primitive societies. They didn't cheat on their diets, because they couldn't. There is no confusion over supposed mechanisms, because you are looking at the actual results, without even considering mechanisms.

Yes, eating lots of meat reduces the calcium in your bones, that must be true. Yeah, that's why european explorers and researchers marveled at the incredible strength in the teeth of the eskimos, who ate a diet consisting almost entirely of meat. One notable anecdote is of a fellow, whose fingers proved unequal to the task, removed a tight nut from a bolt with this teeth. They had their problems, but fragile bones weren't an issue.

That's why tribal humans often go to great lengths to acquire meagre servings of meat when they have little of it: because it's bad for them and nature's brutal teaching process has slowly shaped their society into the pursuit of poor health. That makes perfect biological sense, doesn't it?

Actually, a diet of nothing but raw meat contains everything a person needs to be healthy. Every essential nutrient is present in adequate quantities. Mind you, cooking the meat destroys some of these nutrients (like vitamin C), and eating uncooked meat has many dangers, not to mention the cost of meat.

A little meat goes a long way toward fixing all sorts of dietary deficiencies. That's why it's so highly valued in so many cultures.

The truth is that most vegans must be extremely careful with their diets, or end up weak and sickly (and many end up that way no matter how careful they are). They need to take supplements, because there are some things (like B12) that are either very hard or impossible to get from plants. People with normal, balanced diets which include reasonable servings of meat need only be careful not to eat too much (quite possibly the dumbest nutritional problem to face the wealthy areas of the world: too much food).

IMHO, while it's pretty good for most people, in the standard nutrition system taught in schools, grains and dairy products are overemphasized. Milk is a great food... for some people. Others it just makes sick. I haven't seen studies, but I wouldn't be surprised if ancestry was a factor: in some areas of the world, people have been drinking cow's milk as a staple for millennia, while in other areas milk was only recently introduced. At any rate, people can get by without milk. I like to think of it as being similar to wine and beer; alcoholics tend to be rather unsuccessful individuals, and correspondingly a tendency toward alcoholism is much rarer among peoples who have had booze for millennia (smallpox wasn't the only disease europeans brought to the Americas). The point is that some people can drink several servings of alcohol each day, enjoy lower stress, have no long term damage, and show no signs of addiction, while others who try to follow a habit of daily moderate consumption will be destroyed by it. One human isn't biochemically equivalent to another. Grains tend to be processed into nutritionally worthless starch - great for athletes who have trouble keeping up their short-term glycogen stores, but they just make sedentary people fat.

It's a fuzzy area, due to the rather large variations between humans and the rather narrow samples in typical studies, but when you go dramatically against the conventional wisdom of most cultures going back thousands of years (such as the claim that meat is bad for you), you are almost certainly wrong.

Re:Second-guessing Adams' marketing strategy

[FallLine]

Just going to jump in here quickly... If you assume that Adam's intentions are noble, it is quite likely the only way he could get his product out en masse, is if he uses his cartoon to promote it. Although the guy may have some money, from what I've studied about food marketing, it is quite a capital intensive effort. Not only do you need to manufacture and distribute the goods, but you need to get SHELF SPACE at each grocery store. And shelf space, to the best of my knowledge, is not easy to come by. In short, without a great deal money or widespread consumer recognition (or an existing relationship with these firms), this food would never see the light of day. That being said, I don't know enough about this person to make any judgements. I think it's quite likely that the author didn't come up with the idea at all, rather a marketdroid approached him who thought he'd be game.

Re:real hacker eating

[starman97]

I have found that the opposite works quite well...
I munch on Spicy Pork Rinds and pepperoni slices
with string cheese and provolone slices at work.
Have bacon, Eggs and sausage or chorizo for breakfast.
And Dinner is also lo-carb. No suger soda or candy, no corn,wheat or rice products. Big
salads with non-starchy items are OK.
And I've lost about 30lbs, and keep my cholesterol
under 200 with triglycerides are nearly zip.
It's not a cheap way to eat, but it is satisfying

Some facts on how much it costs to eat meat

[MarcoAtWork]

Maybe I should give you a couple of facts that will help you change your mind regarding exactly how much more stressful for the environment is to support a meat based diet:


a typical hamburger.

12 Pounds of Grain

It takes about 12 pounds of grain to produce one pound of hamburger. This could make 8 loaves of bread, or 24 plates of spaghetti. Grain consumption by livestock is increasing twice as fast as grain consumption by people. Cattle consume 70% of all US grain.

55 Square Feet of Rainforest

While not all hamburgers come from the rainforest, for every pound of rainforest beef, approximately 660 pounds of precious living matter is destroyed, including 20-30 different plant species, and dozens of birds, mammals and reptiles.

2,500 Gallons of Water

It takes up to 2,500 gallons of water in the state of California to produce one pound of hamburger. This could be used to grow more than 50 pounds of fruits and vegetables. Half of all water consumed in the US is used to grow feed and provide drinking water for cattle and other livestock.


as you can see, if all the world switched to a plant based vegan diet, there would be less strain on the planet, I know this is counter intuitive, and meat and milk boards want it to remain this way.

Take a break to cook some REAL food

[RayChuang]

Folks,

After reading most of the commentary here, it appears that the programmer/engineer/hacker crowd is in desperate need of learning how to cook and store food properly in BULK.

Ever heard of Tupperware or Rubbermaid containers? A good-sized freezer? Or best of all, a decent home vacuum-sealing system?

As for me, I do it this way: I make things like meat sauces, chicken a la king, or cooked frozen peas/whole kernel corn in large batches, then divy them up among a whole bunch of Tupperware containers (I put a few slices of baked ham on top of the peas/corn) and put them in the freezer. That way, I just cook up some rice with a decent rice cooker (I have a Japanese-made 3-cup Zojirushi unit), then put the container with the food in it in a microwave oven for 8-12 minutes, then serve with the rice.

You can do variants of this by using a Tilia Foodsaver vacuum sealing system, so you can freeze a whole meal into a vacuum-sealed bag and then drop it in a pot of boiling water to cook it later.

Given that the methods I mentioned can include most every type of food, you don't have to be stuck with fast food or worse just to get a decent meal. Break the hamburger and pizza habit!

Getting off nutrition soapbox,

Re:Cereal Non Geeky!?!?!

[Tackhead]

Besides, if any cereal qualifies as geeky, it's gotta be Cap'n Crunch. I'm showing my age here, but there's a reason why John Draper (the father of fone phreaking, for you young'uns who missed the late '70s...) called himself "Captain Crunch", and it ain't because he stayed crunchy in milk!

Finally, who says cereals don't go well with colas? Pour a handful of Cap'n Crunch into a wide-mouthed tumbler of Jolt Cola. Drink the Jolt straining it through the crunchy things as they release extra sugar into the acidic pool of cola. Yum!

(Damned if I know why it works, my guess would be that it prevents you from chugging the Jolt all at once, encouraging you to sip slowly... turning a slam-blast of caffeine into a slow IV-drip-style dosage all night long. At least for me, 2-3 cans' worth of Jolt makes the second consecutive all-nighter go pretty well...)

ObGeekFood:
- Pound of ground beef.
- 1 yellow onion
26-oz jar of tomato sauce.
- 15-oz can of stewed tomatoes.
- 6 cloves garlic, finely-chopped
- Butter/olive oil/other-frying-liquid.
- Assorted spices - oregano, basil, chili powder for me...

- Start with garlic, finely-chopped, until sizzling in about 1 tablespoon olive oil or butter.
- Add beef. Fry until half-cooked.
- Slice onion while beef cooks, throw into mix. Add your spices at this time.
Dump in tomato sauce.
- Let simmer while you throw in the stewed tomatoes.
- Add any other spices to taste, and let simmer for at least an hour, bubbling off the water and turning the runny liquid sauce you get from a can (made even more liquid with the goop from the stewed tomatoes) into a rich, thick, brownish-red sauce.

The recipe is versatile and amenable to tweaking. The default mode makes killer spaghetti sauce. Use about half as much tomato sauce, and add more chili powder or swap the stewed tomatoes for chopped chilies, and you've got taco filling.

For the single geek, take half the sauce and put it in the fridge for use during the next few days. Take the other half and put it in the freezer, for that "it tastes like it took 2 hours to cook" feeling when you only have 10 minutes. There's at least a week's worth of pasta meals, probably two weeks if you stretch it, in the recipe outlined above.

Insight #1: For me, food, like hacking, is about experimenting.

When I need a caffeine fix, a can of Jolt is at the ready. When I need pure sugar, I call for the Cap'n. When I wanna make a week's worth of supper for $10.00 ($2.00 for sauce, $3.00 for beef, $2.00 for veggies and spices, $1.00 for the tomatoes, $2.00 for a pound and a half of pasta), I put in two hours and do the sauce thing.

Insight #2: It's cheaper to eat well than to eat poorly.

Cap'n Crunch: $4.00+ per box. Pure sugar.
Jolt Cola: $1.00 per can, at least where I live. Pure sugar.
Supper for a week-and-a-half: $10.00, or $1.00 per night. Contains fats from beef, protein from beef, carbs from pasta, and whatever nutrients in the veggies survive the cooking process. But dollar-for-dollar, a hell of a lot better eatin' than the first alternatives.

Insight #3: Cooking good food doesn't take that long after all.

2 hours for the pasta sauce sounds like a lot - but amortized over 10 days, it's 12 minutes a day.