Microsoft Funded by NSA, Helps Spy on Win Users? 264
OpperNerd writes "A French intelligence report has accused U.S. secret agents of working with computer giant Microsoft to develop software allowing Washington to spy on communications around the world. According to the report, 'It would seem that the creation of Microsoft was largely supported, not least financially, by the NSA, and that IBM was made to accept the (Microsoft) MS-DOS operating system by the same administration.'" I personally don't believe this is true, but it's an interesting enough rumor to post for discussion. (SFX: Black helicopters whirring overhead.)
X-dot files (Score:1)
Because it was stated in a X-files episode long time ago. I saw it by chance (I'm not a X-files fan) about 2 years ago.
That much for the french intelligence, I guess
Conspiracy (Score:1)
---
"And the beast shall be made legion. Its numbers shall be increased a thousand thousand fold."
uh, Not Dos (Score:1)
that would suck!! (Score:1)
Windows -- may be, DOS -- no way (Score:3)
Heinlein Would Say: (Score:3)
It would be nice to believe that the buggy security was deliberate, but I just don't.
A new Pink Panther movie? (Score:3)
It just might be true... (Score:2)
We'll just have to use Linux and PGP when we plan assassinations and cyber terrorism.
Ost99
The above text is written in Word97.... [Sound of black helicopters]
NSA Update (Score:1)
Yeah right! (Score:2)
What a load of BS....
Let's face it....it was Gates who made MS, for better or worse.
Frogger (Score:1)
Hahahah (Score:2)
That far fetched ? (Score:4)
BUT
When people were speculating about ECHOLON a few years back, many also said it was nothing but conspiracy theories (and the first time its existance was officially admitted, was due to a question in the european parliament).
Secondly, it is generally assumed (or known) that the CIA shifted considerable effort into spying out foreign companies, and passing secret business information on to american companies, when the Cold War faded. That even lead to several american diplomats being "asked to leave" Germany (and yes the French do the same, ask Siemens about the ICE/TGV competition...)
Hence I think it would be wrong to immediately dismiss any thought of cooperation between Microsoft and some US Goverment agency.
I admit I don't believe that IBM was forced to accept MS-DOS as part of some master plan by the NSA to spy on the world, but rather that once MS was becoming so succesful, some agency recognized the potential...
And even if there are no backdoors etc, getting detailed inside knowledge about the protocols, formats, api's etc directly from the source would be a great help to NSA, CIA, etc.
After all, spying really IS the business of those organizations, and thinking they are only interested in other spies and terrorists would be quite naive...
Just my $0.02
Frank
Consider the source (Score:1)
The bright side (Score:4)
* All the software will already know your personal habits and information, therefore freeing you from the hassle of having to perform configuration.
* In time, all NSA programming staff will develop chronic psychosis (sp?) from prolonged exposure to the Windows sources.
* They can investigate user habits to find out what kind of graphical user interface is best suited to desktop users. And if even without this information they were able to create such great things as MS Bob (tm) and the Office Assistant, I can't help but wonder what great stuff may come next!
* Windows Millenium will come with earmuffs, to keep the constant noise from the black helicopters from blowing up your inner ear.
And last but not least, the Best Thing about Microsoft and the NSA teaming together:
* If the Shadow Government computers that run Echelon are Windows boxes, then you have nothing to worry about - by the time they recover from the BSOD, you'll already have hung up the phone!
---
(Why only five, you ask? Well, I'm not _that_ creative. It's an open list ("open source", much like Al Gore's campaign site), so feel free to add to it.)
DOS -- Way. (Score:3)
The non-existent security of MS-DOS caused an utter lack of security to proliferate around the world.
Whether black helicopters were involved or not is a whole other question...
Guess the NSA convinced Kildall to go flying... (Score:1)
Additionally:-
it would seem that the creation of Microsoft was largely supported, not least financially, by the NSA.
Did the NSA really have a clue at this point in time, I thought the development of Microsoft was the acceptance of Basic in boxes like the Altair and the C64, which I would doubt the NSA would have had much interest in at the time, unless they wanted to check you were taking proper care of your Sims^H^H^H^HLittle Computer People...
Fascism 2.0 sucks (Score:1)
Ok, so assuming this is true, and in light of Echelon and all of the other strange stuff the NSA/CIA/FBI/ATF gets accused of, what is the better method of doing things? How should these organizations be operating in a free society in which computers and networking are an every day part of life? Or better yet: How should these organizations run to prevent Fascism 2.0 from taking over the world?
Well sure... (Score:2)
But... (Score:3)
I don't think for a second that the authors are suggesting that DOS contained hidden security back doors. Look at the paragraph where DOS is mentioned.
it would seem that the creation of Microsoft was largely supported, not least financially, by the NSA, and that IBM was made to accept the (Microsoft) MS-DOS operating system by the same administration.
I infer from this that the creation of a dominant controlling software company overseeing PC operating sytems was the aim,and to further this scheme IBM was persuaded to use MS operating sytems on their incumbent PC platform. In this way a spook controlled company would be delivering the OS that was in use on the majority of the worlds desktop computers. Even if that operating system contained nothing shady on initial delivery, maybe enough foresight allowed them to realise that in later years it would be easy enough to slip in features like the famous NSA key as these devices became more powerful and networked.
Establish an initial base camp in the foothills , so to speak and there's no real harm done if nothing comes of it.
Still it all seems a bit far fetched to me. Now, if they'd suggested extraterrestrial involvement or drug money on the other hand . . . :o)
Why windows isn't a spy tool. (Score:1)
clarification (Score:1)
www.marilynmanson.net
antichrist or not, the guy is definitly an interesting artist.
Even if it's true, who cares? (Score:1)
Blocked! (Score:4)
(Yes, it actually is. I had to use a proxy in the States.)
Whacked-out theories, anyone?
NSA == US Only; CIA == global (Score:1)
Re:Even if it's true, who cares? (Score:1)
Play with warez at home and no one is going to complain.
Do it at work and you put the employer in a position of serious liability. $250,000 and 20 years in jail for each offense is a lot of negotiating power for agreeing to an all Microsoft solution. What a bargain.
Re:Heinlein Would Say: (Score:1)
Gosh, you learn someting every day.
Re:Uh oh! Here come the UN storm troops! (Score:1)
>they would be either driven out of business by
>lawsuits or they would be so disgraced not even
>their best marketting people could get their
>good name back in the eyes of the public.
You think so? They are getting away with selling operating systems full of bugs for like fifteen years already! And still they are the most popular software company... Do you think so many people would suddenly change their operating system because they know "certain information" about what they do is monitored?
If all people were that smart and had that much knowledge (Windows is an operating system that can even be used by a complete computer newbie), everyone would be using linux by now
svEn
Can't believe M$ would spy on Windows users. (Score:1)
It would be more likely that Microsoft would spy on OS/2 and Linux users.
Will Microsoft Respond? (Score:1)
But their PR department has been so inept lately, that they will probably issue such an incompetent denial that all the conspiracy buffs will be convinced that it is true, all true! For example, look at Microsoft's DOJ testimony, look at the 63000 bugs memo, look at Mr. Bill's open sourcing Windows interview (Oh, no, he didn't really mean what he meant!)
What "innovative" way will Microsoft find to fumble the ball this time?
But it probably won't matter anyway, because Microsoft has cleverly marketed their products to morons who actually seem to find Microsoft's bumbling comforting, or at least non-threatening.
uh, no (Score:1)
Re:NSA == global (Score:1)
Re:NSA == US Only; CIA == global (Score:1)
Additionally, the NSA's mission statement (on nsa.gov) plainly indicates NSA's supportive role for the USA's "warfighters," or American soldiers in various theatres and conflicts throughout the world.
If the NSA runs anything like Echelon, then they further would have both external and internal roles.
Microsoft C2 certification (Score:1)
Seems like this ties into the helping out the spies therory. Sell something that is as open as a baby and then tell everyone it is solid as a rock. Could make it much easier to spy.
Noel
RootPrompt.org -- Nothing but Unix [rootprompt.org]
Re:It just might be true... (Score:1)
Would be nice to think that such a thing would create some noise... do you have any facts to back that up (as in, reports/articles/more info on how and what was actually sent/etc) or is it just one of those i-dont-like-MS-rumours?
Now trust me, dont like M$ at all, which is why I'd be very interested in some hard facts on the subject.
Re:Can't believe M$ would spy on Windows users. (Score:2)
Beleive it. [deja.com]
no, it matters (Score:1)
Linux funded by Communists (Score:3)
Someone had to say it, but here are some reasons to support my theory
- Freely distributable... "Spread it around"
- Official OS of China (don't remember if this turned out to be false...)
- Most of the licensing seems to ask developers to make programs because you need them and distribute them for the good of the community
Hehe...--
linuxisgood:~$ man woman
Serious Doubts (Score:1)
Come on now. Do you think a US Government Agency
spending billions of tax dollars could really make Windows so easy to break into, spy-on, crash on demand? It takes real evil genius to do all this and then mind control thousands of clueless marketroids into actually buying Windows.
Eh? (Score:1)
I don't think so. If they had all these little buggers hidden within the code on each windows box, I think that the Justice Department would have "dropped the case" by now.
...and FBI == internal (Score:1)
The NSA is just one of the means to give the US military an advantage in combat along the lines of the old warfare axiom "Get there the firstest with the mostest".
BTW, it is illegal for the NSA to spy on US citizens unless authorized by the US Attorney General. In most cases, a violation of this is a career stopper, so everybody's scared of doing this.
this also explains the PC architecture (Score:1)
Now do the following calculation: the more important the computer, the bigger the CPU mHz must be, and the bigger and noisier the cooler.
So these black heli's can come nearer to more important computers without being heard through the noise of the CPU ventilator (chop! chop! chop!).
Strategic, eh?
It's... It's...
Re:Guess the NSA convinced Kildall to go flying... (Score:1)
If you think about it, if your a large company and you are looking to bundle an OS with your PC, that's a HUGE decision. Are you really going to go with choice B just because you can't immediatly get hold of choice A? It makes for an interesting story, but it just doesn't ring true if you think it through.
Kinda makes me wonder what the PC indsutry would be like if they had bundled CP/M instead of QDOS though...
Yeah, right (Score:1)
It's on Agence France Presse (Score:2)
Who needs backdoors? (Score:1)
NSA uses suns (Score:1)
Don't ask.
Re:Windows -- may be, DOS -- no way (Score:1)
", does anybody know if there are any pieces of DOS code which purpose is unknown or unclear? "
Only the ARRD detection code
Re:Waste of bandwidth (Score:1)
I thought the same about all the bloat in Microsoft Word. Boy, was I wrong! What waited in that heap of feature ridden code was traps for viruses and word basic trojans. I know the purpose of your pointless post was to insert some secret code, such as DeCSS snippets hidden under the html tags. I know what you're up too. Don't lie to me.
It's on the AFP wire (Score:2)
The definition of "Working With" (Score:3)
This is an interesting acusation, and may very well be true, but how does one define "working with"?
1) Call Micros~1 tech support.
2) Sit on hold for hours on end listening to the nail-grating advertisements.
3) Listen to a tech pick up the phone and answer "wusup dude?"
4) Explain how your windows peecee constanly locks up with a blue screen every time the computer actually gets used.
5) Listen to the little dude squirm.
Congradulations, you're "working with micros~1". The broad acusations in this press release could indeed be very true, but not relivant.
Another interesting quote is: " the National Security Agency (NSA) helped install secret programmes on Microsoft software..."
people install applications onto the os everyday! Does this mean there is some kind of link between the program being installed and the OS?
_________________________
What bug? (Score:1)
Would not be the first time (Score:5)
You can read more about it on WIRED [wired.com].
France [freerepublic.com] has also complained about PROMIS.
Bill Hamilton of Inslaw Corporation who was going after the government for stealing PROMIS gave this document [l0pht.com] to each member of the House Judicary Committee.
and we must not forget that Crypto AG supplied encryption machines to over 120 countries. Officials from Iran, Iraq, and the Vatican, to name a few, relied on Crypto's tech for top secret dispatches and the NSA had a deal with Crypto, which gave them a backdoor that made those encrypted messages easy to decipher and they were not even a US company.
Also what about Lotus Notes' NSA backdoor [heise.de] that is in international versions of the software.
Noel
RootPrompt.org -- Nothing but Unix [rootprompt.org]
Re:Uh oh! Here come the UN storm troops! (Score:1)
if ms-dos had flopped alot of things in regards to OS's would be different. Linux and/or *nix
but if *nix was predominant first everyone would be using it and would be discussing the relearning of OS's to use winblows because the NSA had corrupted *nix's to be able to spy on the masses.
*up long time thought processes fading please dont moderate me down to much im making a valid attempt at a rational and intelligent thought*
guess its a woulda coulda shoulda
if the masses were made to use a *nix they'd do what it takes to work the system
especially when the net boom came along
or maybe it would have kept is simple less clogged and more closer to what us geeks wanted originally .
wouldn't that be nice?
hmmmmmmm
Re:Fun Times (Score:1)
The problem is that the demand for admins is higher than the supply. MS is very good at telling ties that MCP/MCSEs are highly qualified, while at the same time pushing their certifications to the masses - "get certified and double your salary". The result? A lot of MCP/MCSEs with little or no real-world experience.
Re:NSA uses suns (Score:1)
Why not? Just set the From: header to Anonymous Coward, or if you must, use an anonymous remailer.
Re:NSA == US Only; CIA == global (Score:2)
That was one of the big deals about them spying on email. They aren't supposed to do that to Americans and some American mail might have gone through foriegn servers and hence been seen. The FBI generally handles the internal matters that would be handled by the NSA if they could work inside US borders.
Re:But... (Score:1)
Don't you think some other country would have squealed yet? Were they paying the Russian government throughout the 80's not to tell people that they'd implanted spying devices in everyone's computers? I think we should be told.
Apart from that. If this is true. do they fancy funding my interdimensional periscope. which will allow them to look up from the floor of any office building in the world? I'll let them fund me for the minor ammount of $500 million but theres a chance this groundbreaking technology may not work......
My workplace keeps extensive records! (Score:1)
no way!! (Score:2)
<<ding>>>
A fatal exception 0E has occured at F0AD:42494C4C
The current application will be terminated.
* Press any key to terminate the current application.
* Press CTRL+ALT+DELETE again to restart your computer.
You will lose any unsaved information in all applications.
Press any key to continue
Damnit! where the hell is the "any" key?
Its Not That I'm Paranoid..... (Score:1)
heheheheh
Does anyone remember the Image Data fiasco? (Score:3)
I watched a newscast shortly after the initial story broke, where an official from one of the four states was *very* ticked off at this company for misleading him with respect to their source of funds. Apparently, it was discovered that the company had received about $1.5 million from the U.S. Secret Service. Read about it at http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/216
So, while the notion that the NSA is in bed with Bill might seem a little far-fetched, this incident with Image Data makes the NSA/Microsoft issue seem a little more plausible.
Re:More conspiracy websites... (Score:1)
The Irony in all of this seems to be that despite the companies' insistence that more Calculability, Predictability, Control will yield greater efficiency this is not the case. Here is where the irrationality of rationality comes forth and its stench reigns.
Over rationalization works only to dehumanize society, for personal profit of the corporate class (the Capitalists.) It is intended to keep the humans around long enough only to strip them of the ability to create, to practice skills and offer judgement. Ultimately, it replaces humans with technology.
CDC really a front and other musings (Score:2)
It has to be the work of a evil agency bent on getting the UN into power as the one world government (never mind that the bulk of UN troops are United States AND the United States has a ultimate veto power in the Security Council).
I think stories like this are generally a little far fetched. As for the NSA key I think the Crypto Newsletter from Counterpane said it best. If you want to put a key into a program you don't put your agency name on it where anyone can see it.
This is the NSA. They do know a little about security and something this stupid is a little below them. After all if Windows is as insecure as everyone keeps saying why do they need to put some secret key in? They can just go in like any script kiddie and see what they want.
As for the DOS argument about trying to get a standard system in place... was DOS really that powerful or was I missing something? Windows I could kinda see but DOS? Never mind most of the major corporations they would want to spy on at the time were using UNIX or some other kind of heavy duty OS.
How did the NSA know that Microsoft would be well recieved? Maybe everyone would fall in love with the MAC and use it instead and then the NSA would be up a creek. Also the countries that the NSA would be most interested in (Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Cuba, etc) can't have computers exported to them anyway. This whole thing is full of holes if you just take a moment to think about it from a logical point of view.
But if they're black heli's, ... (Score:1)
could it be true? (Score:1)
To continue, why would the NSA need Microsoft to force IBM to comply with its wishes? IBM has always been in bed with all levels of the government.
A good argument for the rumor is that the US intelligence community's modus operandi is to start up "front" companies to serve as cover for whatever black op they are about to take on. Could Microsoft have started as such a "front" company?
Who knows? It's just idle speculation.
A denial by the big M wouldn't be convincing. The only way to find out would be a massive lawsuit against Microsoft that would force it to open up its vaults of internal documents & memoranda to public scrutiny. The tobacco companies recently faced such an onslaught. Oh, wait. That lawsuit is "United States v. Microsoft." The private antitrust suits, like that of Caldera, are probably going to be settled out of court. No production of documents, I guess.
We'll never know unless there is a political movement in the US that demands change in the intelligence community.
Oh my god! Just as I was about to post this, I lost my net connection! LOL. ROTF.
Re:Guess the NSA convinced Kildall to go flying... (Score:2)
Large corporation or not, business is still conducted by people. The ability to feel 'safe' when dealing with a company or individual is crucial when you are making a deal. It is not at all far fetched to me that as a result of this incident, as well as their response from Microsoft and Gates that they decided that Microsoft (and Gates) were people that were a better fit with their way of doing things.
M$ Funded by NSA (Score:1)
Re:That would back up the nsa.key claims (Score:1)
Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
French Inteligence (Score:1)
How about the other way around? (Score:1)
Dos? How? There wasn't much connectivity. (Score:1)
However, I find this story to be unbelievable because it supposedly started as early as dos. Most dos computers were not hooked up to the internet. The internet was still Darpa net during most of dos's years wasn't it? Anyways, the point is how would the NSA have been able to spy anyways? They would have to physically be at the comptuer, and well.... dos is not at all secure, anyone could "spy" on someone if they were sitting at the suspects dos box.
Re:The definition of "Working With" (Score:1)
Certainly. After all, it's a hell of a lot easier to install something nasty on a 95/98 box than a Linux or *BSD box. It can be done but it can sometimes take a fair amount of effort (especially if the person is security concious and prevents floppy booting, booting into single mode without a password, etc)
Re:It just might be true... (Score:1)
Re:More anti-Microsoft propaganda . . . (Score:2)
ascii art (Score:2)
naivete paranoia
---------------------------------
ok, maybe it's not art.
numb
Re:ascii art (Score:1)
numb
No Wonder They Don't Use Macs (Score:1)
Steve Jobs used to be a big ant-establishment guy back in the day. I guess he wouldn't let them spy.
Re:X-dot files (Score:1)
If there was a French company, Micro-crossaint, that was dominating the software industry, do you think they'd be crying?
This from a country that thinks Jerry Lewis is a national treasure.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This signature contains text from the worlds funniest signature.
Re:More anti-Microsoft propaganda . . . (Score:2)
WTF? You've been able to buy it for, what, 2 whole days now (release date was 2/17, right?). Realistically, how many people are going to replace their Linux and FreeBSD x86 servers with Windows 2000? That's a pretty massive risk, not to mention the enourmous amount of downtime and integrartion problems (a lot more than some companies - like ISPs, can handle, and more than any company wants to have). And of course Win2000 is not running on Alpha or UltraSPARC (to mention 2 popular server architechures), so if you've got any of those around, you'll SOL (not to mention PowerPC, HPPA, etc)
I suspect that that vast majority of people using Windows 2000 are going to be people upgrading from 95/98/NT. And in the single user area, you can still dual boot, y'know. Personally, I'm waiting for at least 6 months to see if major problems crop up, then I'll replace 98 with 2000, and play Windows games on an SMP machine (hopefully by then I will have a dedicated Linux box)
Paranoia (Score:2)
It is no more than this. It seems that jounalists, without having ANYTHING new to publish, decided to hunt down on more deeper waters. The result? They are publishing urban legends as news...
But... Don't trust more Microsoft by this. THEY DO A LOT to get some info about you and your use of computers. The "lemedofoyou" philosophy of their OSes hides a dangerous system of information gathering. Besides more and more they bound this philosophy on your computer use. Wanna get a patch? "lemedofoyou". Wanna get a new program? "lemedofoyou" Wanna search for something on the net? "lemedofoyou"
But for "lemedofoyou" to work they must know something about you. And they gather some info. Presently it looks that this information gathering is not very substantial. Maybe because it is gathered by a few bits each time. So the whole may be much worser.
And this information can be used for very dangerous purposes. It can be sold to NSA, CIA, FBI, the Shadow Government... Or worse. It can leak and be sold to snake oil sellers, major corporations, religious sects and even leak into the criminal environments. Imagine someone getting thousands of credit card numbers from satisfied Microsoft customers.
Almost Certainly Hype (Score:1)
You know what this probably is? Someone in France heard about NSAKEY. This got mentioned in a report as "Probably not actually related to the NSA, but we're putting a note on it in the We-Hate-Microsoft file." This in turn gets transmitted via friend-of-friend through three or four hops, reaches The Age, and you've got this lovely article.
Nothing new here, folks.
Alik
Re:DOS -- Way. (Score:1)
better inherent security? AFAIK Unix wasn't
a competitor for the first PC OS.
Distributed.net? (Score:2)
The reason I don't believe this (Score:1)
My W2K computer? (Score:1)
Sorry, you got the wrong guy here. I'm sensible, so I use an Apple running LinuxPPC.
And the Chinese have been working with Micorsoft (Score:2)
--
Conspiracy theory? (Score:3)
However, right now, the US gov't is engaging in activities both in this country and others which in 5 years will eventually get reported and dismissed as "conspiracy theories" and in 20 years will be found to be fact, and those same people who were calling them conspiracy theories will then apologize for the "one time" error the government made and then believe they won't do it again. (after all, the gov't SAID they wouldn't do it again....).
The problem is, our government does horrible things as a part of POLICY, and this will never change until we get a real democracy.
GetPrivateProfileString() (Score:2)
(Moral of the story: decompile you product and remove any strings that a paranoid might interpret incorrectly).
Re:Well sure... (Score:2)
The name under which the Renault 5 was sold in the US at one time. (Too bad they didn't sell the R5 Turbo - a wacky idea done as, I think, a homologation special; move the engine from the front to behind the driver, make it drive the rear wheels rather than the front wheels, and turbocharge the hell out of it - here.)
The beauty of closed source (Score:3)
Re:NSA uses suns (Score:2)
Nice to know they're using the latest and greatest hardware....
Re:Blocked! (Score:2)
I think we need to se up a sindicated blocked site list which sites like slashdot can included in baxes. It would list sites blocked by censorware, governements, etc. and have information for getting arrouind the block so people could get to these sites easily. Ultimatly, it would make blocking a site have the opposite effect.
Doesn't make sense (Score:3)
It wasn't even a network operating system, and the Internet was not exactly a widely used public network at the time.
--
grappler
Re:NSA == global (Score:2)
Re:Why IBM did use MS-DOS (Score:2)
Re:How is this vacuous comment insightful? (Score:2)
On the whole I agree with this poster's complaints. I have said the same thing many times.
HOWEVER.
I was not attempting to do anything with that post but paint a general picture in the abstract. I have dozens of posts currently on /. and many of them have the very facts for which you ask.
Re:Yeah right! (Score:2)
I agree. I'm all for stronger European nations. The true Democracies don't involve themslves in wars.
I'm not concerned about a strong Europe. I'm more afraid of a weak one.
Well, I'm sure that "you Europeans" hate being painted with a broad brush as much as people in "The US" do.
I do know a lot of people who wonder why the United States bears the brunt of responsibility for fighting wars that, if there were any equity, would be at least as much Europe's responsibility (Kosovo, The Gulf War).
I'm don't think that "fat and lazy" are fair characterizations of Americans as a whole. We work more hours than Europeans and I think we can be proud of our many high technology achievements. I've worked in Europe and I didn't notice people working any harder there than I see in the US.
But, if Eurocentric bigots want to look down their noses at us, I doubt that any arguement I could make would be of any help.
Yes, Americans are clever the way we force all those European TV networks to carry Melrose Place. Face it, nobody forces American culture on anybody who doesn't buy it.
The only coercion I see in cultural matters is how various governments around the world forbid American (and other foreign) culture from being allowed in their country because given the choice, the people might freely choose the foreign culture.
-Jordan Henderson
Re:French Inteligence (Score:2)
Szo
Re:Question (Score:2)