Xbox Security Keys Changed 245
anth writes: "A couple a months ago we discussed some reverse engineering of the Xbox which discovered the security code. The last paragraph of this letter from Nvidia says MS changed the code, and that they had to write off chips with old code as a result."
Guess Nvidia didn't read the EULA (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Guess Nvidia didn't read the EULA (Score:1)
Re:Guess Nvidia didn't read the EULA (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Guess Nvidia didn't read the EULA (Score:1)
How lame is this idea! Nobody forces consumers to use MS products, regardless how many times you want to yell 'Monopoly' in a theater. All MS's gains are well gotten gains. You're problem isn't with MS, it's with lazy consumers who accept substandard products. Oh well. That's life. Get over it already.
Cat and mouse (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cat and mouse (Score:2)
Why?
A. Someone's ALWAYS got the time. (these are geeks)
B. Someone's ALWAYS got the money. (not all the geeks lost all their $ in the dot-bomb implosion.)
'nuff said.
Re:Cat and mouse (Score:2)
That's why even after 3 card swaps, hundreds of ECMs, mind boggling amounts of destroyed cards, DTV is still hacked by people. I mean, they just gave up giving up, right?
Hacks will always exist, and you can save more money by giving up after being hacked the first time -- the people buying your tech to pirate your programming, or in this case games, are just not the customers you need to take care of. Consider selling your hardware at a profit to avoid being burned by pirates (what a concept!)
Spend the money where it counts -- on paying customers!
Re:Cat and mouse (Score:2, Insightful)
Hacks will always exist, and you can save more money by giving up after being hacked the first time -- the people buying your tech to pirate your programming, or in this case games, are just not the customers you need to take care of.
Yeah, that's basically what they told me in prison: "I'm going to anally rape you whether you like it or not, so you might as well sell your body for some cigarettes."
-a
blamed (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, Microsoft is the one. I never blame Windows or Visual Studio.
I blamed Windows and Visual Studio (Score:1)
I blame the latter for not updating J++ since beta 1, forcing me to use such a powerful app as forte on such a shitty OS such as Windows.
All I can say is:
Forte damn well better run as good the iBook I'm about to get as it does on my Linux server.
Hrmmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
Hindsight, it seems, once again has 20-20 vision!
Re:Hrmmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
The odd thing is that their tech guys didn't spot this. After all why should the graphics ship have the code hardcoded in it?
Re:Hrmmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
Speed.
Ease of programming.
The reasons for putting things in microcode or hardware are not hard to see if you are an ASIC designer.
Re:Hrmmm... (Score:2, Insightful)
Pointing out errors like this is not hard after something has been broken. Doing it up front is way harder. I suggest you try doing a 10Mgate+ design sometime, and try maintaining control over the possible tradeoffs of speed (whatever) against a possible specification change in the future. This time around, Nvidia lost the gamble. Shit happens.
I doubt the key has changed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I doubt the key has changed (Score:5, Insightful)
their weakness was that the data actually travels un-encrypted along a high speed bus on the mainboard for a very short run, and is checked after that run for a 32 bit "magic number" at the end of their plaintext stream... that is the spot he watched, he made a lil device that plugged into that bus and read the data as it streamed unencrypted.
unless they encrypted traffic on that bus it would be totally pointless, and the MIT guy who did the research also points out all the complications that doing so would cause (latency, power consumption, reliability)
his research [mit.edu] (pdf warning) really is a good read if you havent gone through it yet.
Re:I doubt the key has changed (Score:2)
Only a small group of people can recover the information from the bus, as such they are the only ones who can mod the new Xboxes. Unlike the old one where everyone and their dog had the keys... etc.
I suspect that is the theory they are going with, right or wrong.
Re:I doubt the key has changed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I doubt the key has changed (Score:2)
Chances are that is the way they do it. The chips they're tossing were likely already burned in anticipation of MS's next order. Can't undo a PROM.
Scrap a whole bunch of chips (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Scrap a whole bunch of chips (Score:2)
Unless nVidia had already produced more inventory than had been sold at that point. It's common for things like this to be sold as x thousand units per day for y days. If they had excess capacity at the plant, they would have used it rather than turning the fab process on and off (it's usually easier to leave a factory running producing excess products than repeatedly stop-starting).
Usually, this is good for them as they can than have the factory producing something else until the surplus has been nearly exhausted before changing back.
I guess MS had a clause where they had to give a week or whatever notice of a chip rev, but by that point nVidia may have already massively overproduced the obsolete chips.
My heart weeps (Score:4, Funny)
O poor monopoly powers. Entire chip lines and console plans changed by a lone MIT student.
I love it.
Re:My heart weeps (Score:1)
Nothing new there, except this is a case of code embedded in hardware.
Re:My heart weeps (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, entire branches of the Linux kernal, and various other software projects, like Apache, are changed as a result of security exploits.
The ever-so-subtle distinction between your observation and that of the original posting is that when security holes force rethinkings and reworkings of applications and protocols in the Open Source world, there isn't an entire great big monopoly suffering, just some geeks losing sleep reworking code... as opposed to thousands and thousands of stock holders all of whom are wringing their teeth and gnashing their hands in hopeless, helpess despair as one whipper-snapper post-grad at MIT all but destroys their hopes and dreams of infinite wealth and world peace and dogs and cats loving each other... and god dammit I just can't go on for the shame...
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Or maybe... (Score:1)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
Or are the Mod chips protected by 'security through obscurity' and hardware locks? If so, isn't that kind of ironic?
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2)
PIC security isn't the best, they can all be breached with a few different techniques, supposedly with a few hundred dollars of parts and labor. Sometimes people use some special method of overloading the Vpp pin so that the bond wire overheats and melts - that wire is needed in some of the bypass methods.
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:1)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2, Funny)
not really. (Score:3, Informative)
29F040 chips loaded with a proper
dunno how much money im loosing here....
And when the next xbox rev. is hacked, and the next chips costs $5 as well, everyone will be laughing, because we all know Microsoft can't create a secure system if their lives depended on it
29*F*040 (Score:2)
That F means flash - Take old stock, stick it in the burner again, you have current up-to-date modchips.
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2, Interesting)
In fact, installers like the occasional change. It helps them move old hacked console stock (well, at least in the case of the PS2, where a hacked console usually remains a hacked console). Next, it increases the price of the new modchips to unbelieveable levels (another source of income) and, lastly, increases the price of older, cheaper to hack consoles.
Yay! M$ helps pirates make more money again! Woohoo! What do you think will happen next? They'll price their games outside the reach of the expert buyer just like they did with Win XP Professional and M$ office Professional to ensure more piracy?
This is almost as intelligent as when Homer J. Simpson decided not to buy the $0.50 washer from the plumber.
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:3, Insightful)
Is there really a big xbox game pirating scene?
This is all silly anyway. I remember when I was younger (under 16) I used to "pirate" video games. Of course back then that meant a 1-300k download. Probably took just as long though. As soon as I was old enough to have a job, and money I stopped doing it, and started actually paying for the games I wanted. It seems to me that beyond basic anti-piracy efforts, companies are wasting money on copy protection. The people that they stop can't afford the games anyway, and the "software pirates" that can afford the games tend to be the people who will use the money to break the new protection rather then purchase the game. It would be interesting to see a study that looked for a correlating revenue increase when a new copy protection scheme comes out. More importantly, how much cheaper would my games be if I wasn't shelling out a SafeDisc 2 royalty for every one of them?
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:1, Funny)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:1)
FPGAs are reprogrammable.
Idiot.
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2)
Not by end users. I suspect that the equipment to reprogram them costs more than an xbox
Idiot.
Love your sig.
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:3, Informative)
Actually FPGA's are normally programmed using EPROM's. Most FPGA's these days are actually static RAM cells, which are programmed at power up by reading data from an EPROM. EPROM burners are pretty cheap...
But in any case, FPGA hardware is ridiculously cheap. Go to fpgacpu.com [fpgacpu.com] and see for yourself - a 300,000-gate FPGA environment complete with programmer and s/w for ~$170 US. If you want a cheaper one, you can get 150k-gate ones for ~$120 US. Considering that a 32-bit CPU is ~20k-gates, that's pretty good :-)
Simon
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:2)
Re:This is a nice move from Microsoft (Score:1)
I'm in the industry, so I can comment... the programmers for most FPGAs run from $50 on the low end to $500 or more on the high end. I'm guessing the mod chip is a very low-end FPGA (the high-end ones are more like programmable CPUs and can reach speeds of around a GHz these days).
HOWEVER, FPGAs *do not* need a programmer to be reprogrammed. All of the ones I've come across work on a very simple serial interface which uses only a few pins...so (assuming that the mod chips are indeed FPGAs), with a few resistors and a serial cable cut in half, an end user could feasibly burn in new code themselves, with the chip in-circuit, and with reasonably little difficulty for someone with a steady hand.
Do they learn their lesson (Score:2)
A slight changes in code could do such a damage, no wonder why MS want to push DRM and Palladium.
Re:Do they learn their lesson (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Do they learn their lesson (Score:2)
1. MS partners with Nvidia, helps crashing their major competitor(goodbye voodoo)
2. MS crashes their close partner Nvidia by destroy their entire product line(blame the damn MIT studnet!)
3. Seek more partnerships
With DRM/Palladium, replace "Nvidia" above with any other company name, repeat.
geek girl (Score:5, Funny)
Oh man
Re:geek girl (Score:5, Funny)
Re:geek girl (Score:1)
Re:geek girl (Score:1)
Re:geek girl (Score:2)
Re:X-Box vs. geek girl (Score:4, Funny)
Compared to the EULA which comes with most females, M$'s EULA might as well read "do anything you want, anytime you want, any way you want".
Let's start with the basic rundown. The standard-issue female comes with a EULA which you "sign" without ever getting to read it. Any use whatsoever (even just looking at said female for very long) is considered signing. You are never allowed to read the EULA, but it will be referred to many times. Even should you abandon, leave or loose your female much of the EULA will remain in effect, and any parts of it can be re-enacted at her choosing at any future date. Even when you are given small glimpses into what this EULA might contain, it is usually encrypted and encoded in a format most males find completely confusing.
I would quote some of the more haneous parts of the female EULA, but my female's EULA promises dire concequences should I do so.
Re:X-Box vs. geek girl (Score:2)
Seriously, you need to post the EULA for girls! This knowledge needs to be known! If not you, if not now, then who and when?
Re:X-Box vs. geek girl (Score:2)
I can't really answer that in depth... (Score:2)
As a guy, you should see a woman who continues to date an asshole as a person with some pretty hefty issues they need to deal with internally.
I used to think just like you do about this subject, but then I got through puberty and moved on.
"cocky asshole jerks there are.. like say.. you?"
This is an outward sign of your biggest inner problem: testosterone. You aren't really in competition against every other male on the planet. Stop trying so damned hard and women will stop sensing this severe character flaw and actually start paying attention to you.
Take my words and use them to enrich your life, or use them to make you a bitter recluse... it's up to you.
Re:I can't really answer that in depth... (Score:2)
Like highschool?
Just goes to show (Score:1, Insightful)
EXACTLY (Score:1)
I honestly think that the next encryption standard will be pig-latin or ceaser-cypher based. Those that break the encryption will still be called "criminals" and "anti-capitalists". Whoever "makes" the standard will sue, and the source code, or napkin drawings, will be confiscated and kept from the general public.
That said, it would take us a lot longer to crack a ceaser-cypher than it would take us to crack a DES messsage. Security in Simplicity.
Re:EXACTLY (Score:1)
Now, if it's a Vigenere cipher, that's different.
Kierthos
Re:Just goes to show (Score:4, Interesting)
Ie: "it's not we couldn't sell it. We have to ditch the hardware because of piracy. All money lost due to piracy, DoD please help is, they are destroying the industry!"
So they turn an error in they part into something that can help them strategically. This is just a posibility, but with MS you never know (with Windows, they never did a reversion like this. Remember the bug in XP cds, they just release it on schedule even though the shipped version already had security bugs. They just solved them after release)
OpenXbox - PC - Bioxx (Score:3, Interesting)
Have a look here: Open Xbox - PC - Bioxx [lik-sang.com]
Odd that it's just now coming out, eh? ;-)
Next
When will they start blaming Microsoft? (Score:5, Insightful)
-Restil
Re:When will they start blaming Microsoft? (Score:1)
Re:When will they start blaming Microsoft? (Score:1)
Re:When will they start blaming Microsoft? (Score:1)
Random observations. (Score:4, Interesting)
An analagy to this would be if MS upgraded our operating system in the run of the night and billed us for it; even though we did not consent for them to do this.
What is really funny is that modding consoles does no damage to the companies bottom line. MS makes money from developer fees, developers make money from the games they sell, and hackers get to have fun and maybe download a hacked game. (this assumes they have a dvd burner, which many don't). By doing this MS has made the XBOX look bad to hardware devlopers [who loose when they have to scrap technology], software developers [wouldn't want MS to change something games rely on], and the tech elite[who don't like MS anyway].
Of course this really doesn't matter much when it comes to Xbox sales and games. As the old sayings go, the games speak for themselves. Too bad the Xbox family lacks vocal cords.
Secondsun
Re:Random observations. (Score:1)
So what does this mean? "Hackers" who buy an X-Box just to run home-brew software, and not any MS-Licensecd games... is only actually making MS lose money.
Moral of the story? Buy X-Boxes and don't buy games. =]
Actually, they blame AMD. (Score:2, Insightful)
Never mind that the nForce was hype that never really beat out older motherboards.
Re:Actually, they blame AMD. (Score:2)
It was never really meant as a performance board, but instead as a value board that had decent performance. As long as you don't expect it to run like the newest Geforce4s, it does a great job as an economy market board.
It works for them. (Score:3, Insightful)
oh yeah (Score:2)
Labeling circuits (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Labeling circuits (Score:1)
Re:Labeling circuits (Score:2)
What the heck did they sign? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:What the heck did they sign? (Score:2)
Re:What the heck did they sign? (Score:2)
This came out last week (Score:2)
How are emus a hassle? (Score:2)
I consider SNES9X less inconvenient than having to fight with my 10 year old SNES every time I want to play Super Mario World, but if I could get the exact same game without the hassle of either an emulator
How is an emulator any more of a hassle than a native PC game? It's easy. Just install snes9x or visualboyadvance, let it associate itself to .smc (super nes) or .gba (gba), and set up the joypad bindings. Then put in the disk containing the copy of Super Mario World that you ripped from your cartridge (Super Mario World, Super Mario All-Stars+SMW, or Super Mario Advance 2) and play on.
In fact, it's usually easier than native PC games because you only have to configure the bindings of four emulators (NESten, SNES9x, DGen, and VBA) rather than every single game in your collection.
However, on the other hand, owners of copies of some titles aren't so lucky:
Only the total purists would care enough about the slight differences
You call the complete corruption of graphics and resulting unplayability of NES "Klax" on anything but LoopyNES a "slight" difference from the hardware? Last time I checked, the Klax hardware (Tengen Rambo mapper) is not very well emulated.
does not make sense...? (Score:1, Insightful)
AFAIK, the security codes were a mechanism of authenticating the Xbox software to be genuine - to stop pirate / unauthorised games from being played on the Xbox. There are already a significant number of titles (and machines) out that will use the "old" security codes, presumably the ones that have been cracked.
If they change the codes - suddenly they're going to have new machines out that won't play the old games. Likewise, if they bring out new games - they must be capable of running on the old machines.
Like I said - it doesn't make 100% sense.
Re:does not make sense...? (Score:1)
Re:does not make sense...? (Score:2)
It's possible they've combined a couple of chips, and the savings from the redesign have outweighed the cost of dumping unused parts.
I reckon NVidia are just trying to avoid drawing attention to poor sales.
Thats great [2 points to make...] (Score:1)
Not only does MS screw its competitors, MS is causing a ruckus with its *partners*.
Kind of like killing the hen that lays golden eggs....
They have the muscle to be able to do this, but its baad bad business.
=====
point 2
Why wasn't Nvidia thinking ahead on this issue either?
They could use a CMOS-like chip containing the security key/algorhythm, that would be far less costly to produce, especially if its likely it will need to be changed in the future.
Maybe use a Complex Programmable Logic Device [xilinx.com]?
Yes MS kind of screwed Nvidia, but Nvidia appearing to be a "forward thinking" company... why did they get themselves in this position to begin with.
Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Insightful)
What is the upshot of this incident, once you filter out all the distractions?
1) Hacker bypasses DRM-type security
2) Company "forced" to retool/change security
3) Direct, demonstrable monetary losses
They need to set precedents that exposing obvious security gaffes (unencrypted signal on the bus in this case) leads directly to major financial losses. Makes future prosecutions much easier.
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:2)
I'm sure someone will argue this, but the truth of the matter is that having obvious security gaffes leads directly to major financial losses.
Buy More XBoxes! (Score:2, Interesting)
Remember, it costs Microsoft $300 to make an XBox, but they sell it for $200. That's why:
For reference for those who question the numbers, I got them from a MS programmer: Their employee purchase plan allows them to buy software at a Huge Discount. Their is no discount on the XBox; though they jokingly say you can buy it at cost if you really want to.
that doesn't make sense (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that Microsoft already spent $300 to make an xbox. They lose that money no matter what. If you buy an xbox they will get $200 and partially recover their losses.
In short, Microsoft loses $100 on an xbox if you buy it. They lose $300 if you don't buy it.
Re:that doesn't make sense (Score:2)
People missinforming on this subject are helping Microsoft. Unless they can probe the $300 stand for just MANUFACTURING costs, which I bet is lower than that (and it's all COMODITY HARDWARE, except the feture cripling plugs).
Why change the keys? (Score:1)
Ban logic probes! (Score:2)
Of course, banning this one malicious tool is not enough,
we also need to ban oscilloscopes, multimeters and everything capable of measuring an electrical current.
For ordinary computer users, this means:
Under linux, run "shutdown now"
Windows users are asked to run a program.
What happen (Score:2)
There must have been another reason (Score:2)
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, Lets get a "few" things straight.
1. I go out and work my ass off everyday to get money to buy things like CDs, Video Game Consoles, DVDs, DVD Players, etc....
2. I now OWN these items that I have purchased. I am told I can't copy my CDs, rip my DVD's to make a "backup" copy and burn it to a CDR media. Also, I am not allowed to modify any hardware that I own.. (Which by the way it sounds like to me.. That since I bought a computer that runs at a clock speed of 1.4GHz I am not able to overclock it to 1.6Ghz if I want to because it was sold to me as running at 1.4GHz, I dont like that.)
3. Soon if all of this DRM crap goes through I will not beable to install anything that is not approved by certain companies (i.e. Microsoft). Meaning I can't install Linux on a computer that I purchased with Microsoft Windows on it. Even though I OWN the damn thing. I won't beable to add new hardware as I want to, I will have to call Microsoft to let them know I changed my hardware configuration (Windows XP does this now).
When I BUY something, I like to know that I own it and can do anything to it I want. If I want to take it out back and beat it to a pile of junk (Office space senario with copy machine). I should be able to, If I want to change a few settings in the hardware, I should be able to. It is MINE. I PAID for it. I am NOT renting it. If I want to rent something I will go to Blockbuster, or go look for an apartment.
You dont rent your car do you? Atleast with a lease you have an option to BUY it after the lease is up. This is like "insert favorate car manufacturer here" saying you CAN'T change your exhaust on your car that you bought from us, even though you own it now, Oh yea BTW that factory radio you have, you are NOT allowed to put that in either. When you get a flat tire, YOU will put on said brand of tires or we will sue the crap out of you. Do you like being told that crap? I know I do not like it.
So please explain to me how this is "illegal", or any part of "terrorism"? Please also feel free to explain how this is "the land of the free", if I am not able to do any of the above.
- br0ken
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:1)
Well done!
2. I now OWN these items that I have purchased. I am told I can't copy my CDs, rip my DVD's to make a "backup" copy and burn it to a CDR media. Also, I am not allowed to modify any hardware that I own.. (Which by the way it sounds like to me.. That since I bought a computer that runs at a clock speed of 1.4GHz I am not able to overclock it to 1.6Ghz if I want to because it was sold to me as running at 1.4GHz, I dont like that.)
Of course you can, you just lose the warranty, your money at the end of the day, so your choice.
3. Soon if all of this DRM crap goes through I will not beable to install anything that is not approved by certain companies (i.e. Microsoft). Meaning I can't install Linux on a computer that I purchased with Microsoft Windows on it. Even though I OWN the damn thing. I won't beable to add new hardware as I want to, I will have to call Microsoft to let them know I changed my hardware configuration (Windows XP does this now).
Actually, you will be able to, it just wouldn't run as "trusted" software, unless of course your favourite Linux distro had decided to fork out to pay for a suitable key.
The things that you are on about would only be illegal if you were planning on circumventing copy protection. It stinks, but it is the law. Unless you are a PS2 owner living in Australia apparently.
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:2, Informative)
Some goes for the vast majority of commercial software.
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:3, Insightful)
It is immoral to do physical harm to others. Many of us consider guns (most especially handguns) to be nothing more than a device intended to cause physical harm to others. This is immoral.
A device like a modchip is not intended to do physical harm to others. When I use a modchip, does Bill Gates bleed? Nope.
If you can't see the difference between a device that causes physical harm to someone, and a device that causes absolutely no physical harm to someone, you have a morality problem, and are part of the problem, not the solution.
You aren't one of those people who go around telling people that "Guns don't kill people. Death kills people." Are you? Because if you do, you're the nutcase.
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:2, Offtopic)
It is immoral to do physical harm to others. Many of us consider guns (most especially handguns) to be nothing more than a device intended to cause physical harm to others. This is immoral.
Police officers carry handguns. In the commission of their duties, they injure, and sometimes kill suspects (like that rapist in California who was about to kill 2 kidnapped girls.) By your definition, would police officers not be immoral?
Some soldiers carry rifles. In the commission of their sworn duty (to defend the country from enemies, foreign and domestic) they kill and injure enemy combatants, under order from their superiors, which go all the way up to the president, who is elected by the american people. By your definition, would not every american citizen thereby share in that "immorality"?
If someone was going to beat the living shit out of me because I was (insert race, sex, religion, or chosen lifestyle here), and I decided to take exception to this by defending myself and doing physical harm to my attacker, would I not be immoral by your definition?
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:1)
No. AFAIK, good police officers have no fixation on weapons and only carry them because their job is intended to put them in situations where they may be forced to use them.
Ordinary people have no business putting themselves in the middle of a shootout, and I have little sympathy to those who do so willingly and are hurt themselves, unless they are protectors of the peace.
>In the commission of their sworn duty (to defend the country from enemies, foreign and domestic) they kill and injure enemy combatants, under order from their superiors, which go all the way up to the president, who is elected by the american people. By your definition, would not every american citizen thereby share in that "immorality"?
Just because someone who is part of your people does something immoral doesn't make you yourself wrong. Otherwise I'd be able to call all Americans slave owners and indian killers.
Two, the majority (by number of, rather than people dead) of modern (as in during the lifetime of an average American) American wars have been unnecessary according to a surprising number of experts. But that's a totally separate issue.
Lastly, killing in defence of your own life is a totally different, and completely emotional decision, and at that point the thinking of the average human can't be expected to be rational, and therefore, by our own standards, is to a certain degree, excusable (that's why there's an insanity defence in most every first world country).
>In the commission of their sworn duty (to defend the country from enemies, foreign and domestic) they kill and injure enemy combatants, under order from their superiors, which go all the way up to the president, who is elected by the american people. By your definition, would not every american citizen thereby share in that "immorality"?
Well, considering what I've said above (that normal citizens have no business endangering their own lives in this manner, and that normal citizens can be excused for acting on emotion) we don't give guns to people in these situations because you are so likely to act on emotion.
Most people who have shot someone, even in self defence, have serious emotional problems after. Witness the huge amount of police officers that need special emotional care after being involved in a shooting. A sane society has no business promoting that, and putting tools of death in the hands of people who don't need them inflames the situation.
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:1)
Maybe you should stop coming here???
Re:News for Felons. Stuff that's illegal. (Score:2, Insightful)
More like America "Bush @ Co." are terrorising the rest of the world with this new found "Agenda"...
You poor troubled American..
Regards
More and more concerned world citizen (Sydney, Australia)