Mozilla Partners with Real Networks 386
engineer_uhg writes to tell us that Mozilla has just entered into a multi-year agreement with Real Networks to have Firefox distributed with downloads of RealPlayer, Rhapsody, and RealArcade. The Mozilla team cited Real's estimated 2 million downloads per day as a great tool for distribution. However, many Firefox supporters question the move, complaining of questionable practices by Real.
black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:5, Insightful)
So Long as... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe (Score:2, Insightful)
"Questionable" (Score:4, Insightful)
That understates the reaction quite a bit. Real is one of the worst things to hit the Internet since AOL, IMHO
Bundled downloads suck (Score:5, Insightful)
Just give me what I requested, don't add a bunch of crap to the download that I don't need or want. Does Mozilla want Firefox to become "That crappy browser that came with the music player"?
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:3, Insightful)
If they want to win the browser wars (to use an old term) then securing 2 million installs is a good step.
Well done Moz. :)
Oh please. (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank god it's not the Itunes Quicktime issue. (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't download Itunes, unless I download Quicktime media player. I swear the only reason macs are better for video is because Apple has yet to create a GOOD version of Quicktime media player for the PC. Luckily MPC can use quicktime file formats, though I'm sure apple is mad about that one. But the fact I have to get their less than wonderful software on my system, infecting it, just so I can go use Itunes (which I enjoy), and listen to music (perhaps paying for more music)
I just hope firefox stays solo and corporately neutral, because it's the one thing that keeps Firefox high up in my book.
I hope you illiterate fools realize... (Score:3, Insightful)
Idiots.
Re:News for Today (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, Real is bad, horrible, evil, but if they manage to get people away from IE (perhaps with the inclusion of a subtle "[X] Check here to make Firefox your default web browser", I'd say huzzah to the lesser of two evils.
And maybe (/wishful thinking) if the Fox devs can smack some sense into Real devs during downtime, added bonus.
Will this extend to Real's agreements with OEMs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:5, Insightful)
This move really underscores the rift in the Open Source community as to what the goal of Open Source really is. Should we be spreading a philosophy, or just trying to get as many people using our favorite software as possible? If we're trying to spread the Open Source ideal, then partnering with a company known for distributing spyware and generally embodying all of the worst aspects of closed source software is a bad idea. If all we're trying to do is get everyone to use the same software that we do, why do we even care if that software is open source to begin with?
This move indicates a lack of sensitivity to the Open Source philosophy, and seems to complete Mozilla's move from a community-driven project to a market share obsessed company.
Re:Ummm... memory footprint? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bundled downloads suck (Score:3, Insightful)
"Slow internet connections suck... Especially for people getting bundled downloads."
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:4, Insightful)
So in that sense, this move IS at least reasonably in line with open source mentalities.
Re:Ummm... memory footprint? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Bundled downloads suck (Score:3, Insightful)
MS used "underhanded tactics" to get "an extra user" on Windows, and are universally reviled for it. Real uses underhanded tactics. AOL the same.
Why do you wsh the same for Firefox?
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:4, Insightful)
While Mozilla's public was only geeks (or directly people connected to geeks) once upon a time, it is now reasonably main-stream. If you want lots of people to use Open Source or GLP software you need regular people to use it too. Microsoft - no matter how much one hates them - became the most sucessful software company ever by catering to a mass market, and SGI died because their user-base shrank.
Philosophy follows market capture. In order to impose your will on someone you've got to get yourself in to a position of power of them first. It's the same whether you're in politics, business or accademia, get people to support you and THEN you're able to change things (or at least try with a greater chance of sucess).
Real Player w/ Firefox, not Firefox w/ Real Player (Score:3, Insightful)
So, really, this isn't very "ewww" after all.
Re:Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
RealNetworks did a lot of shit in the past, true, but that doesn't mean they will always keep doing it. That's the same as saying that someone who was convicted by a crime will always behave as a criminal.
It really bothers me that most people who bash Real latest software do so without even trying the thing.
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:3, Insightful)
It is not like you'll be encouraged to download RealPlayer with FireFox downloads anytime soon. This is really just Real striking back at MS, and helping out FireFox. Who cares if some of us don't like them, it doesn't hurt us any.
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:1, Insightful)
Many people whom I have converted to Firefox do not use it cuz it's Open Source. They use it cuz it's better than the competition. Granted IE7 is putting that to the test at the moment, but over IE6 for most users, it's streets ahead and most people can see that.
These people don't care that it is open source. Just that it's better.
As for a slap in the face. Hardly. If it were the other way around. You get Real with Firefox, then you're looking at a slap in the face for Firefox fans et al. All they are doing is distributing the browser alongside another 3rd party. Good for them! Get it out there to the masses! Are they distributing the worlds' best browser, or are they fighting for the Open Source ideal. I think the former, with a view to exulting the latter.
Just my 2 pence.
Gasp! That big?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:5, Insightful)
Spread software. People are resistant to others telling them how to believe.
Why does the OSS community need a goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know about you, but I don't subscribe to either of these.
I consider myself part of the Open Source community because I both use Open Source, and from time to time I've also written and released my own Open Source. I don't particularly care about spreading the philosophy (although I'm happy to explain it to people), and I don't feel the need to make people use it (although I'm happy to help them if they want to, within reason).
Personally I like and use Open Source software because in the ways that I like using software, I find it to be of superior quality and better suited to my needs for a variety of reasons. Running campaigns and trying to convert people to new philosophies has nothing to do with it.
Individual people or organisations within the open source community might have goals, but I don't think it's a serious problem if different groups disagree. I'm also not sure if it's meaningful to claim that people should be aiming for a goal just because they're involved in open source. If anything, perhaps one issue that could be addressed is how to better identify different interest groups without trying to bundle them all into the "Open Source Software Community" basket.
Re:Maybe (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the problem right there. RealPlayer is not so much like the old RealOne Player or any of their other failures. They created a bad name for themselves by being overly intrusive. But they don't deserve that rep so much now.
They also were the first format to optimize for low bandwidth, which created a big problem as far as how their format in general appeared when most RealMedia videos were crappy quality.
That said, I'd prefer everyone used H.264 MPEG-4 for streaming video. It's good quality per bit at all bitrates, it works in several players, and it's easy to hint for streaming and drop into Darwin Streaming Server.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like it (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the first thing that comes to mind is what people will start to think about Firefox. Sure, its userbase might be strengthened, but we are living in an age of browser spamming.
What do I mean by "browser spamming"? For example, let's say you install a popular piece of software like AOL. I have a laptop running Windows XP, and I also do not have any commercial antivirus of my own, so I installed AOL because my dad has an accoutn with them and from that I am able to get free McAfee service. AOL came bundled with "AOL browser." It's merely an IE frontend with a shinier interface and tabs. Also, try installing Realplayer for Windows--you can hardly load the damn thing without their little media browser coming up, loading all sorts of Real sponsored web pages. Is it possible for me to go anywhere or do anything without escaping some kind of little browser getting in my business?
Soon people will download Realplayer, an ad-supported shareware package, and they'll have Firefox. They'll begin to regard Firefox as the same sort of strings-attached freeware junk that Real is. Don't get me wrong--I think Realplayer is actually a very nice media player, but my beef against it is all the peripheral crap that comes with it and the intentionally-limited features.
It's important that people understand what Firefox truly is--Free software with a capital "F". They also need to understand that it comes from the Mozilla Foundation, not Real Networks. :-/
Fuck that! (Score:1, Insightful)
Bad move, Mozilla. Bad move.
Re:ha (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:4, Insightful)
As the saying goes, "when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas." In other words, Real's shitty reputation will tarnish Firefox by association.
Now, we know Real has changed (what with Helix player and all), but since the general public is usually a few years behind us techies, their opinion of Real (due to the former spyware etc.) is most likely still at rock bottom.
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:4, Insightful)
This sort of half-truth, a supposedly open player that does not work, is the kind of shady thing I would expect, and still do expect from Real.
Re:black cloud w/silver lining... (Score:5, Insightful)
Quicktime used MPEG-4 video for years. Now it uses h.264 and AAC audio in an MP4 container, which can be played-back by many different programs, including many fully open source. They use standard RTSP for streaming, and even provide the Darwin Streaming Server as free and open source for anyone to use.
Windows Media has submitted their latest video codec as as SMPTE standard (VC-1) which is now being used by HD-DVD and Blue-ray players.
Real has a propritary format, propritary audio codecs, propritary video codecs, require their propritary software for encoding, propritary software for decoding, propritary software that supports their propritary streaming protocols, and sued Streambox out-of-business for creating an application that could read (and save) propritary RealNetwork streams.
How does this make Real anything but (by-far) the worst of the worst? Sure, they have the Helix player, which in open source, but only under a rather restrictive license ensuring that it can't be used by anyone else for anything. The Helix player only supports already open video/audio codecs and containers, which have been supported by many other more open players for years, unless you agree to their ridiculously restrictive license to get the Real codecs.
Real was the first, of the three to play on Linux, yes. However, Quicktime (now) uses standard codecs and formats that ANY player can use. Windows Media has a SMPTE standardized video codec which any player can impliment (and native implimentations for VLC/ffmpeg are available), etc. With real, you still, to this day, have no choice but to load the binary codecs (as MPlayer/Xine do).
Completely untrue. Real pulled back just a little bit. Their software still installs lots of other crap and system services, makes it difficult to disable sending information back to their servers, etc. It's just nominally less horrible than it used-to be. It's still very, very bad software, which I go out of my way to be rid of.
Utterly wrong. Apple is the BEST of the big 3 by FAR, and has been for several years.
Opt-out bundled software sucks (Score:3, Insightful)
(btw, I use Opera, FF, and IE7 interchangably, just whatever I feel like using at the time; I don't care about the browser war stuff.)
Re:Time to boycott Firefox (Score:2, Insightful)
With this logic, Firefox shouldn't even be available for Windows, Microsoft is no better than Real about the end-user privacy and rights...
"Techie" is a broad term (Score:3, Insightful)
And RealPlayer in particular is one thing I don't give a fuck about anymore anyway. It's not only that it's annoyed me too much with their shitty spyware back then, it's that I don't really have an incentive to bother with it anymore anyway. Did it change its ways? I dunno. Do I give enough of a fuck to check out? Nope. The vast majority of the media files on the net these days are in DivX, WMV and QuickTime format. In that order.
Re:Maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
Guess what? It's not "never" yet. Maybe in another 5 years? Maybe.
Real made bad choices. Their brand equity suffered, and they're still suffering. I personally believe they deserve it. Afterall, what negative consquence is there for any company who tries to "pull such crap"? The bar is raised VERY high for "legal" consequences. Even one or two brief ethical lapses can usually be smoothed over with PR efforts, apologies, discounts, changing names, and so on. But sustained unethical behavior ruins ones brand name. It's just as simple as that. Real ruined their reputation.
Sure, call me a karma whore. Say I'm ignoring several positive things they've done lately. Claim it's "unfair" to Real to hold a grudge so long.
Real EARNED their bag reputation. This is the punishment companies get for doing such unethical things. Much like a lengthy prison sentence for a fraudster (supposedly as a deterant to other would-be crooks), poor reputation and lack of trust in a corporate brand name lasts a LONG time. Other corporate would-be evildoers should (and often do) take note. This is what a company gets for repeated unethical behavior. Distrust lasts a long time.