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Israeli Army Frowns on D&D 984

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the gotta-cancel-my-tuesday-night-campaign dept.
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls. I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
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Israeli Army Frowns on D&D

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  • by YankeeInExile (577704) * on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:15PM (#11889987) Homepage Journal

    I do not mean to cast aspersions on D and D players, but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.

    After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.

    One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.

  • ... personality traits that make them a lower security risk...

    I'll assume you meant to say, higher security risk.

    Also, I believe you have an excellent point. I and a bunch of my friends have been avid Mage players for a few years now. (Much better game, IMHO, check it out at http://www.white-wolf.com.) Anyways, one of my friends joined the army a few years ago, entering the intelligence branch. They eventually took away his security clearence because of some of the stuff he was analyzing about his unit.
  • Personality faults (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:20PM (#11890068)
    have personality traits that make them a lower security risk

    Surely you mean more of a security risk?

    I'd also argue that people who indulge in fantasy games have a tendency to be morally rigid and idealistic -- a bad trait in a soldier.

  • haha... your funny. This is nothing more then ignorance.
    The numbers they cite where pointless. How many people would not qualify for high clearence if ALL recruits went to see the psychiatrist? who knows.

    Another case where someone who does something different has to experience bigitory. Personally, I would welcome some good open studies on role-players. The few that where done(that I know of) never found in results worth reporting.
    I say this as someone who has play role-playing games since '76*.

    *I loath to put out how long I have been playing, because I hate those 'I've been playing for x years therefore I am right' types. I do feel that disclosure is neccessary for context in this discussion.
  • by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:28PM (#11890222) Homepage Journal
    I do not mean to cast aspersions on D and D players, but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them. After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.

    Something carried on 60 minutes (take with whativer size grain of salw you wish) One other thing you may wish to consider, few of the radical-right, orhtodox jews, serve in combat rolls in the IDF. Why? Because they're religious scholars and exempt from such duty. Yet, they are usually the ones howling the loudest about how it's their promised land and establish these lovely settlements in whatever speck of land the palestinians have left. You can usually tell, when you see some footage on TV, these people are heavily armed and ready to die for their house on the pile of rocks they claimed for themselves. They also tend to have larger families and are expected to control the majority of the electorate in a country where the armed forces are mostly composed of the secular or moderate jews.

  • by Spencerian (465343) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:28PM (#11890224) Homepage Journal
    Fallacious thinking on behalf of Israel military people. I wonder if a county whose identity is rooted so strongly in a state-sponsored faith can see outside of the box as the United States has in accepting almost any religion, yet taking no direct preference in any one.

    (This isn't a jab at the Jewish faith at all. I'm about to join the Catholic faith myself, but the question is there, as I'll explain.)

    There are a few studies that show positives with game playing. At heart, a proper game based on reality or fantasy settings in an Earth-like setting is a simulation. Sims teach with low costs and reduce or eliminate the expenses needed in live training. Twitch games aid in dexterity and coordination, of course.

    And the US Army believes that a good sim of their work is also not only a fun game, but a great recruiting tool. [americasarmy.com]

    While board games like D&D itself may not show an immediate dividend to fighting a war, consider that any game helps plot strategy, conserve resources, and deal consequence.

    Game playing may help a soldier think "outside of the box" in a combat situation where unusual solutions with conventional weapons and tactics may prove worthwhile. It seems that the Israeli Army may decide to stick to convention.
  • Weird... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Jethro (14165) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:29PM (#11890236) Homepage
    I think this only shows one side of the story.

    They do ask you about your hobbies when you go through recruitment (at 16 years old). They may assume that people who play fantasy games are a 'security risk', but they definitely recognize that kids who play complex rule-based cooporative games in their teens /do/ have some valuable qualities, too.

    The Israeli army tends to know how to assign people to jobs they'd be good at. And use the rest for cannon fodder. Or, in my case, tell them to just stay home if it's all the same.
  • by prgrmr (568806) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:31PM (#11890259) Journal
    I'm guessing that the IDF pshrinks found that D&D gamers tend to be more indivualistic. Being in the military is, by necessity, to be part of a team and the team has to come first, thereby presenting an inherant conflict of interest which may present itself at some very inopportune moment.
  • Re:Right (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wk633 (442820) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:31PM (#11890265)
    The biggest supporters for the state of Isreal are radical Christians, who see it as a neccessary precursor to the rapture.

    Not that they'd neccessarily agree on much in one-on-one dialog :-)
  • Hah! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by greg_barton (5551) * <{moc.oohay} {ta} {notrab_gerg}> on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:33PM (#11890298) Homepage Journal
    From TFA:

    Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.

    "They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says.


    So, if you're "detached from reality," or as some people call it, "creative," you're subject to "influence"? So no Israeli soldier has an original thought, ever?

    No wonder the country is in such a fucked up situation...
  • by Animats (122034) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:35PM (#11890325) Homepage
    The IDF has some major internal problems right now. The leftist solders don't want to go into Palestinian refugee camps [israelblog.org]. The rightist soldiers don't want to go into illegal Jewish settlements. [hagshama.org.il] Those factional problems are bigger than the D&D issue.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:35PM (#11890346)
    About half my group (in a Q cleared section of Los Alamos National Lab) play D&D. But by nature scientists are geeks.
  • SCA, not D&D (Score:2, Interesting)

    by J.R. Random (801334) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:36PM (#11890356)
    I've never seen D&D players do the "dress up with shields and swords" thing. Those pictures look like they're of a meeting of the Society for Creative Anachronism, or some other group of similar ilk. But four nerds sitting at a table with dice and paper maps wouldn't be so photogenic.
  • by Xugumad (39311) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:38PM (#11890394)
    Last time I heard of anyone applying for a high clearance job, part of the interview process was talking to a psychiatrist...
  • by eaddict (148006) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:38PM (#11890400)
    I was in a combat engineering group (ariborne!), had secret clearance, and was in charge of many men and equipment. My squad would often play D&D or other RPGs during down time. I think it helped us to think outside the box and come up with unique solutions to the problems presented to us during military exercises. In fact, it got so the whole platoon used to play Squad Leader (and other board games) along with my squad.

    I think it has to do more with being creative and maybe anti-establishment. My squad (and I) would often ruffle brass when we did something that worked and worked well BUT wasn't by the book.

    Oh well, that was 20 years ago. Now the US Army just wants bodies...
  • You pompous ass! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by rafael_es_son (669255) <rafael@nOSpAM.human-assisted.info> on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:45PM (#11890484) Homepage

    And who do you think occupational and clinical psychologists respond to [blogspot.com], you pompous ass? I weep at popular idolization of state-sanctioned authority.

  • Actually.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Eesh (50408) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:47PM (#11890523) Homepage
    Actually, in one of my pre-recruitment interviews I told the interviewer that I read Slashdot and he was enthusiastic because he did too. :) That was an interview by technical people for a technical job, though, not the generic screening interviews that all Israeli teenagers do. (Recruitment is mandatory in Israel)

    However, it should be noted that this was news to me, as I know quite a few people who played or still play D&D and other RPGs (I did, too) and served in highly classified jobs (Like myself).

    Also, a prominent Israeli portal posted this caricature [nana.co.il] about the issue.

    The guy on the dragon is saying (Very loosely translated) "I won't go anywhere but Golani", which is an elite unit.

    And for the Slashdot crowd, the artist (Miki Mottes) was once the Sysop of a major Israeli BBS.
  • by ZephyrQ (96951) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:48PM (#11890533)
    Imagine the irony!

    Call it the --Revenge of the Geeks--!

    Right now, I'm sure they are freaking out...

  • by geminidomino (614729) * on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:48PM (#11890540) Journal
    Then your DM was a weenie. One of my players tried to pull that once. He had a nice time watching TV while the rest played the rest of the session after he offed a character that wasn't "maxed out" to his satisfaction.

    Had he done it a second time, he'd have found his seat taken come the 3rd session.
  • by Maljin Jolt (746064) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:54PM (#11890629) Journal
    According my observations on my friends and myself several decades ago, D&D style role-players are more (if not completely) resistant to propaganda, brain-washing and military drill. The real problem of recruiters with new recruits is, security clearance in military is not about trust, but about thought control. They trust no one. So they can't give security clearance to someone who's mind they can't control.

    Let me comment some headers of TFA:

    'Simply detached from reality'

    Does mean subject is mentally independent from factual perception, able to create experience according his own intentions. That allows him potentially diverge from lined propaganda. Note, the military propaganda is also somewhat "detached from reality", but other, organized and controlled way.

    'The game indicates a weak personality'

    "Strong personality" in military sense is someone who obeys all commands unquestionably and is capable to force them out to the lower levels. Higher intellect, which is often a characteristic for D&D players, is not a bonus for performing something that "does not make sense to do" in critical situation. Actually, in D&D all good players are very picky about what does make sense to do in dangerous conditions. Sometimes, simply stand and fight is not an option in dungeon and players already know about it.

  • by Jurph (16396) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @01:57PM (#11890669)
    They're only hurting themselves here. I worked in a building with no windows a few years back, and the cubicle decorations were typical geek couture: Star Wars, Star Trek, Tolkien, Dilbert, Far Side, math puns, archaic computer hardware, and whiteboards crammed with crazy doodles. You'd be an idiot to think there weren't dungeon-masters there!

    Everyone in the building had a high security clearance, and the vast majority of them were "free thinkers." The traits that made them most valuable in D&D also made them great analysts:

    - quick lateral thinkers
    - work well on small teams ("parties")
    - open to new or contradictory data ("plot twists"/"betrayals")
    - efficient min-maxers
    - logical approach to difficult situations

    I know if I ever go back to that kind of work, there'll be plenty of Elvish Paladins and Dwarven Mages and so forth. I wouldn't have it any other way!
  • by northcat (827059) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:02PM (#11890761) Journal
    Why do slashdotters take everything remotely saying something other than praising "geeks" as an insult? The Israeli army is saying that *Israelis* who play D&D (probably in a way that's done only in Israel) are not very good for the army. They're not saying that slashdotters have small penises.
  • by Dun Malg (230075) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:04PM (#11890792) Homepage
    Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army?

    That's exactly the sort of people you want in your army. Clueless nimrods who can't function if the expected parameters are altered are exactly what they should be trying to avoid.

    I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart.

    You assume that being smart will make you stand out in the military. Well, sorry to burst your bubble but the military has a LOT of smart people, and chances are your intelligence won't stand out as much as you think. Anyone who says "don't let on that you're smart" is really saying "don't spout off trying to be a know-it-all". Keeping your mouth shut and your eyes open (particularly when in boot camp) is the wisest course. Once you've been in a while you'll figure out when it's appropriate to offer your "smarts". Nobody (particularly drill sergeants) likes a wise-ass.

    In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders.

    You got a lot to learn about the nature of the US military. Your description fits the old Soviet military, but not ours. In an army you want people who can understand an objective and modify an operational plan of the fly as the situation changes. Soldiers who stop and look at their commanding officer every time they run into an unexpected obstacle are worthless. I suspect you'll get quite an eye-opening education on this come 2005AUG01, courtesy of the US Marine Corps.

    Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???

    Which "great dictators"? Name a dictator that had an effective army full of mindless, uneducated "drones". Name an effective army that wasn't backed by a solid educational system. Killing teachers is a move to solidify a political position, not to create an ignorant pool of cannon fodder.

    As for the IDF automatically lowering RPG-ers security clearances, I think they're idiots. I spent 4 years in the US Army as a SIGINT analyst, and I'd say that fully half the people I worked with played role playing games. I wonder, do they think that D&D is "bad" and that hex-map war games are good? At what point does pretending you're Rommel the general become OK, vs. playing Skorzeny the commando? Is it the level of abstraction? Is it the medieval fantasy aspect of D&D? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that most people entering the IDF are there for compulsory service. I knew a lot of D&D dorks in high school who would never be a good fit for military service. The thing is, those of us dorks who were a good fit would have been stuck as truck drivers or something under an IDF-style rule. I think the IDF is tossing out the baby with the bathwater here, but hey, it's their stupid army.

  • Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MightyMartian (840721) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:09PM (#11890876) Journal
    Especially people who are so overzealous about religion that they can't deal with a little make-believe.

    Well, this is the same calibre of people who find pro-gay messages in Sponge Bob and Teletubbies. I've known quite a few roleplayers in fairly fundementalist churches who have had to abandon their hobby after being pressured or outright threatened with being given the boot. I think it's sad, and I do get mad that a perfectly reasonable and enjoyable recreational hobby is so misunderstood and maligned.

  • Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jason Ford (635431) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:12PM (#11890922)
    I've had a very Fundie Christian relative who started blabbing off about how roleplaying was letting Satan into your heart with all that magic and fantastical creatures.

    In his autobiography 'Black Boy', Richard Wright recalls his grandmother's attitude towards his writing. She believed that fiction was the work of the Devil. Paraphrasing: 'You writin' down things that ain' true. Tha's the Devil's work, boy.' (My apologies to Richard Wright for my crude approximation of his characteristic style.)

    Things are getting a little better as time goes on, I hope.
  • Role play (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mikewhittaker (313040) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:12PM (#11890924)
    Maybe it's the role-playing aspect that they don't like - putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

    Heaven forbid that a grunt might think back to being a schoolkid him/her self and not pull the trigger on a child who strayed off a path.
  • Re:D&D or LARP? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by corporatemutantninja (533295) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:15PM (#11890956)
    Not to be terribly prejudicial, but that would make a little more sense. I mean, those SCA guys are just weeeeeeeeird.

    No, seriously, it has always struck me as rather odd that guys who sit around and collaboratively make up stories, be it about dragons or spaceships or spies, are considered weird, and yet guys who sit around memorizing and arguing passionately about statistics for rich athletes who they've never met and never will is considered perfectly normal. The athletes may be real but it's still fantasy to live vicariously through them. I think going out and PLAYING sports with my buddies is better than either, but for some reason being a sports fanatic is normal and RPGing is strange. I don't get it.

  • by Simulant (528590) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:16PM (#11890984) Journal
    I'm almost certain I told my recruiter (US Air Force) that I played D&D. In fact when I joined, I had a weekly game going on at the rec center across the street from the recruiter's office, with military players involved. I most definitely told told the recruiter I smoked pot (but was quitting, which I did for four years).

    They gave me a TS SCI clearance. Also, the Army hired me years later and gave me a Secret... (or they tried... I quit before it came through, nearly two years later. Still, I had a interim secret clearance for that period)

    On the other hand... If anyone had ever stuck a gun in my hand and told me to shoot someone, I'd have probably deserted.
  • by Achra (846023) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:20PM (#11891049) Journal
    As a former Marine, I can't resist. :) I joined out of highschool for similar reasons. I notice that they're still pushing that giant falsehood: Pay for college. :) Unless things have dramatically changed, the GI bill for reservists amounts to about an extra $100-200 per month in addition to the (aprox) $200 you receive for your drill weekend. I know I couldn't have done college on $300-400 a month. The Real GI bill that "pays for college" (at least used to be, I understand things may change during wartime).. You would pay in a certain amount of every check for 4 years of active duty, and then it would "mature" into $30,000 of college tuition. Aside from the fact that this is wartime, so you won't be spending any time in the "reserves" anyways. But these parts aside, and on to the reason I wrote this reply! While you are in bootcamp, don't take anything personally. All the goofy stuff is for a reason, the way they make you carry a glass of juice in the messhall (Live grenade, coming through!), etc, etc, etc.. It all pops up later in training and makes sense. (Turns out that when you throw a grenade it's one hand over the top, just like with the glass). Even IT (Incentive Training) isn't a punishment so much as a method to get a bunch of squishy recruits turned into marines in as short a period as possible. Enjoy bootcamp, you'll get 8 hours sleep every night (except the crucible, which is no big deal).. As Marines will tell you, that's the most sleep they received during their entire enlistment. :) Good luck, try not to stick out (But nobody tries to stick out.. :) and don't take any part of it personally.
  • by northcat (827059) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @02:42PM (#11891322) Journal
    No, military training is not about making people impressionable. Part of it is making people *unimpressionable*. What you are saying is that the soldiers being impressionable eases the job of the trainers. But it's ok, the trainers do a pretty good job of making even the most stubborn person a good soldier anyway. Being impressionable is a HUGE trade off (did I use the phrase correctly?).

    It seems that you might not have understood the bad effects of a soldier being impressionable, so I'll try to explain. First of all, he can cheat his country. Not stealing the plans to a secret underground volcanic weapon, but something smaller. Then his opinions might get modified easily, and he might lose some of his support for the cause his country is fighting for. His mind might become fluctuated (damn, I really don't know English) by what he sees in the battlefield. And an impressionable mind often implies a weak mind, which sucks for a soldier. (Plus, the other guy who replied to me does a pretty good job of explaining too.)
  • by darth_borehd (644166) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @03:30PM (#11891950)
    I wonder what it is about D&D they object to. Is it the fantasy aspects of it? What about roleplayers who the Star Wars RPG or a modern based RPG like Spycraft? Are they in the same group? Also, do they object to the time and devotion given to the game or the fact they are playing an imaginary character? If so, what about all-strategy games like Warhammer? It would seem to me that wargamers might actually be looked upon favorably in the military due their familiarity with strategy.
  • Re:Nope (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Swamii (594522) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @03:47PM (#11892212) Homepage
    No, Islam denounces the Tenach (Old Testament) as a lie, changed by Jews. Because of this they are not our spiritual brothers in faith as the Jews are.

    Quickie lesson:

    Abraham in the Bible had 2 sons: Isaac, who is the father of modern day Jews, and Ishmael, who is the father of modern day Arabs. Jewish & Christian Scripture agree that God annointed Isaac, and therefore his descendants (the Jews) are God's people.

    Islam tells us that the conniving Jews lied and changed the Bible so that Isaac got annointed, when it was supposedly Ishmael that was annointed by God, and therefore his descendants (the Arabs) are God's people.

    Additionally, the Qu'uran commands Muslims not to associate with Jews and Christians because they are bound together in their common faiths.
  • by WillAffleckUW (858324) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @03:59PM (#11892400) Homepage Journal
    Me and a bunch of friends were some of the original game add-on designers at SFU for AD&D (heck, I've still got stuff that Gary Gygax signed, and a bunch of the original versions of the books), and I ended up holding a SECRET clearance in the Canadian Armed Forces.

    I suggest that this stunt will result in a 1D4 roll for self-inflicted damage to the Isreali Army, as RPG players are frequently better able to compartmentalize information learned with a higher classification and only release that which is appropriate, as well as how to deal with semi-conflicting rules sets to preserve the intention of security.

    But, hey, what do I know - I was only Acting Security Officer for the whole Pacific Region ...
  • After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.

    Really? Doesn't seem so to me. Some possible theories why the IDF is skeptical of roleplayers (TFA says D&D, but seem to refer to RPGs and LARPs in general):

    - RPGs do have a bad image due to some Christian fundamentalists spreading FUD. The same Christians are avid supporters of Israel and Zionism so maybe the IDF actually believed these guys.

    - there's a higher percentage of left-leaning among roleplayers than among the general population. This may also be the case in Israel. Beeing a roleplayer thus makes you more likely to be exposed to leftists. This is indeed a security issue.

    - roleplayers are more individualistic and creative and thus less likely to accept orders without questioning.

    - the IDF are prejudiced. Psychologists have a tendency to view everything trough psychologist-glasses. This makes "escapism" a bad thing.

    - some idiot deceided this some years ago and nobody has corrected it since due to hiearchy issues.

    - the IDF are idiots

    Probably a combination of some of the above.
  • Re:Roll the dice... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Saeger (456549) <farrelljNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @04:34PM (#11892896) Homepage
    Call me cold, but putting everything else aside, it's better that a retard die than a productive member of society. *gasp!*

    I'm no cleansing nazi (godwin!), but if someone had a gun to my head and forced me to choose between the suicide bombing of 100 "average" people, or 200 mental retards, I'd choose the latter. *gasp!* Not until the ratio got up to around 20:1 would I rationally favor the murder of the normal group. *GASP!!!* (At this point my empathy for the familys of the larger retard group outweighs the rational reasons for the smaller group of productive people to continue living.)

    It's nice to pretend that everyone has an equal right to life-- even to the point of selfishly keeping your vegetable relatives alive -- but it's not that simple.

    (not posting anonymously)

    I'm sure somebody's just appalled by my line of thinking. :)

  • Re:You got it wrong (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @04:44PM (#11893039)
    Um... No. Ultra-Orthodox people get an extension of release from Draft, much as some students in universitites do. The fact that it is indefinite, is a different issue. Orthodox men serve in the military. Orthodox -women- are not subject to draft, unless they want to be.

    --To the post above concerning religious fanatics--

    A) if we didn't eat cloven hooves, we'd all be vegetarian.
    B) it is a known issue in the army that Orthodox boys and girls do not make good soldiers. The reason, however, is that they learn too much independent thought, and are encouraged to constantly question the system. If you are so ignorant of Judaism that you confuse the simplest and most commonly known rules of it, however, I can't expect you to figure out other elementaries.
  • Re:Right (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Hyperspac (794779) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @05:05PM (#11893303)
    I think the Jewish diaspora might be the biggest supporters. Dunno.

    Insightful but incorrect. [bbc.co.uk]
  • Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Interesting)

    by johnalex (147270) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @05:52PM (#11893830) Homepage
    Back when I was an undergraduate, a History professor had this saying taped to his door:

    "The reason the American Army is so good at war is that war is chaos, and the American military practices chaos on a daily basis." - From a World War II German Army War Manual

  • by Kris_J (10111) * on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @08:00PM (#11895137) Journal
    WTF? "Game the system"? If you play D&D you realize that "gaming the system" gets you in Shitsville with the game referee (the much maligned "Dungeon Master"). So if anything, D&D players are LESS inclined to "game the system".
    Sorry, that doesn't follow. D&D players, or in my case Magic: the Gathering (and other CCGs) players, gain a better understanding of operational relationships are are able to "game the system", or play within the rules to get what you want.

    Such people are less desirable in an inflexible military system and more valuable in specialised operations.

  • Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Dravik (699631) on Wednesday March 09, 2005 @11:40PM (#11896425)
    It is NOT I repeat NOT a plausible defense to say you were just following orders. In every brief on the subject, starting with one in the first weeks of basic training, US solider is told he has a duty to follow all legal orders. He is told in the same brief that it is also his duty to disobey and prevent others from obeying an illegal order.
  • by capoccia (312092) * on Thursday March 10, 2005 @10:32PM (#11906549) Journal
    Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,to those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

    Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

    Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that the Lord has once for all entrusted to us, his people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these people speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

    Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

    These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

    But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

    But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

    To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Never say you know a man until you have divided an inheritance with him.

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