A Car With A Mind Of Its Own 1416
mindriot writes "When Hicham Dequiedt, driving on a highway between Vierzon and Riom in central France in his Renault Vel Satis this Sunday, was overtaking a truck, his car began accelerating to 120 mph on its own, apparently due to a defect in the cruise control system. Stomping on the brakes proved pointless and, having a magnetic card for a car key, he could not cut the ignition. After calling the police from his cell phone who then attempted to clear the streets of any danger to him, in what he described as the most fearful event of his life, he raced down the highway for another hour before finally managing to stop the car. Read about the incident here or, in more detail, in this article by the German 'Spiegel' (translation). The case is still under investigation. Are we putting too much trust in the increasing number of electronic systems that our lives depend upon?"
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Interesting)
Amen (Score:5, Interesting)
Wait for the investigation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonder what happened... (Score:3, Interesting)
I also seem to remember years and years ago reading (i think it was in readers digest) about a woman who had the same problem with her car - she had to 'drive' it until the car ran out of gas and then stopped on its own. No cruise control there, so problems can occur with or without all the new technology out there.
Re:Transmission? (Score:1, Interesting)
Take a lesson from SF (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm, the computer overriding the human for self-preservation. That could be interesting.....
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:1, Interesting)
My cruise control stuck once (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wonder what happened... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:3, Interesting)
I can personally recall a wild ride in a manual transmission car where the accelerator cable stuck in full-on. I had the presence of mind and fortune to shut the engine off before it spooled past redline, but in traffic it was an interesting experience.
As we get more into software driven automobiles, the opportunity for failures like this continue to climb. For example --->
If Microsoft made cars, and other true stories [slashdot.org]
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:0, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:5, Interesting)
Did you mean with brakes, or by hand? If the latter, I'm going to be really polite to you.
"Using electric brakes with metallic pads means no brake fade, ever, up to the point where you warp your rotors. There's no brake fluid to take on water and boil, not necessarily in that order."
Fade is gaseous buildup from the pads ablating against the disc, which is why you do graduated braking on a non-fancy car, but personally I wouldn't trust a solenoid to do the force multiplying work of a caliper.
As for the brake fluid taking on water...if you have a non-tight hydraulic system you'll be screwed anyway, let alone getting to the point where you have water in it. Compare the relatively low tech and _reliable_ cylinder and caliper system with the voltages/currents required to produce braking forces and you'll probably notice that there's going to some power applied.
"unreliability of automotive hydraulic systems."
Probably _the_ most reliable portion of the average motor car, if maintained and kept in good repair and not driven with utter faith in the ability to tailgate other drivers at 80mph. Most accidents involving brakes are people locking the wheels at speed.
Re:Amen (Score:1, Interesting)
The car would have gone into neutral. There is more to this story.
SP --- Doubter but can't get to the article.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe removing the smart card disengaged something that was preventing the brakes from working properly-- could an automatic anti-skid system or something like that have added to the problem?
This happened to me. (Score:4, Interesting)
I had my licence maybe less than a year, and was driving home from the movies at night on the Boston Post Rd in Westchester county, NY (2 lane street, storefronts on either side.)
All of a sudden the gas pedal went down to the floor on it's own, and the car starts to accelerate from about 30, through 50 and going. Hitting the break did not disengage the cruise control, and breaking a floored car doing 50 does - absolutely nothing.
Just as I was about the turn off the key, the pedal comes back up. The whole way home the car did this. I still remember getting home, being asked what was wrong, and saying "Your fucking car tried to kill me." - this was the first time I swore (on purpose) in front of my parrents.
Next day we take it to the shop, and the mechanic's reaction was "Oh yeah, they do that." Evidently the cruise control wires, mounted on the turn signal lever, woudd fray and short out. Part of the design was the Resume button had priority over the break cut-of switch, so when Resume shorted, you were screwed.
I've met three other people who owned this car, and had the same thing happen to them. One guy, as soon as he said he'd had an 83 Cutlas, I asked "Did it ever go Flying Dutchman" on you, and he knew exactly what I met. His started revving itself next to a Cop at a traffic light. He just got out with his hands up, saying "It's not me, it's the car !", as the car sat there revving itself.
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, if you've fucked up the code, it reboots the device or skips a line of code after a set amount of time. It's usually a few seconds, but newer chips can have a delay of a few minutes. (The one I'm working on today goes up to 4:28.) If you do anything with a chip that nobody will ever see again, you enable the watchdog timer. It's pretty easy to incorporate and lets your system recover from lockups or hangs.
I agree that something is fishy here. I am curious as to why he didn't jam the car into 1st and yard on the e-brake like his life depended on it. Don't people learn to drive anymore? Further, don't they have runaway lanes in France? We've got them all over the place here - they're designed for big rigs, but a small car would be more than welcome if you had a problem like this. You drive up a steep unpaved hill into barrels of water. You stop.
I'm an Electronics Engineer and I'd never trust a drive-by-wire car. Things go wrong; you have to have some sort of mechanical over-ride for a life-critical system like a car.
reminds me of a burned renault motor (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:4, Interesting)
If I turned the key off too far I'd deserve what I got. However my car requires that a I push a little button down to turn the key far enough to lock the steering, probably for that reason. However, it's a Nissan, and their engineers actually understand what they're doing. (Shit, even my distributor can only be installed one way. I wish more engines were like that.)
It's not that I'm high and mighty, it's that I consider driving to be a privilege and a responsibility.
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:5, Interesting)
- The e-brake / parking brake is usually installed on the rear wheels which, due to the pesky laws of physics, only account for about 10 - 20 percent of braking power, depending on the car's configuration.
- At high speeds, it is very possible to over power the brakes. Mind you, auto manufacturers are very careful about sizing the brakes at a much larger power capacity than the engine. This is a no-brainer. However, it is possible to overwhelm the brake materials at very high speeds, causing the braking power to deteriorate. For example, if you ride the brake at 120mph, you'll lose braking capacity. If you then try to stop the car completely, the engine might have more power than what exists in the braking system under its deteriorated state. I had a caliper stick once and it heated everything up so much that I lost braking power on that particular wheel. It wasn't fun.
So the e-brake would definitely not be a choice in this matter. It should be noted that manufacturers have dropped this term and replaced it with "parking brake" for legal and marketing reasons.
Nice Thought But... (Score:5, Interesting)
Because of this I'm inclined to believe it's an automatic transmission. Shifting it from drive to neutral will disengage it, and again the rev limiter covers the engine while the brakes stop the car. I'd like to see documentation of any automatic transmission that will refuse to disengage at any given engine or car speed, because that auto company would be wiped off the face of the Earth by lawsuits. I doubt such a transmission exists.
All in all, I suspect that the same thing happened here that happens in a lot of cases. I suspect he panicked when he couldn't stop the car and since nobody directly told him to shift it out of gear, he didn't think of it. Also, he managed to stop the car using just the brakes (which is as it should be; the brakes should be strong enough to stop the car under full power, assuming they're in good repair), so I further suspect that if he'd been calmer he could have stood on the brake pedal sooner.
Virg
same thing happened to me! (Score:5, Interesting)
one of the officers didn't believe me when i said the cruise control stuck, and asked test the car himself, since it was the only way to prove to him that i wasn't purposely speeding. when he started the car again, cruise was still stuck, and the car was still stuck in gear, and VROOM 65mph. he spun around and hit a tree, steering column peirced his chest and killed him.
they kinda forgot about arresting me after that. cruise control sucks.
Re:My cruise control stuck once (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Emergency Brakes (Score:2, Interesting)
I wouldn't buy one even if I could afford it (and I can't).
the audi story (Score:5, Interesting)
The real cause ?
On the type 44 cars (Audi 4000 and 5000) the gas and brake pedal are close together to make performance driving easier.
Dumb shit americans would hit the gas pedal going for the brakes and rear end people at stops.
CBS fabricated the "expose" on the "problem" completely. Lawsuits were filed and eventually resolved with Audi showing no negligence or fault, but they still changed their pedals in later cars anyway.
This car is different (Score:3, Interesting)
link [channel4.com]:
No danger of it running away? Sounds like a rather Titanic claim. Here's the other kicker:
So we've got an electronic transmission, no manual shutdown, an electronic emergency brake, an "adaptive" cruise control system, and "assisted" electronic brakes.
All the naysayers may want to check their normal assumptions about cars at the door. This one is French.
Re:If the engine continued to accelerate (Score:2, Interesting)
Jeep disproved this non-sense. (Score:3, Interesting)
They showed that in a Jeep, with a large V8 engine, the engine could not at full throttle overcome the brake. Be it from a stop, or while moving. Their catch phrase, "Brakes always win".
So, as long as the car had a mechanical brake system which was still working he could have stopped.
How to turn off the ignition:-) (Score:2, Interesting)
What happenes when you turn off the ignition, and I speak from experience, is:
1. You loose power steering. Unless your car is fly-by-wire... sorry, drive-by-wire... whatever, I think Volvo made one experimental model like that, but most normal cars retain manual steering even with he ignition off. Incidentally, the darn VW had no power steering to start with, so I didn't have to worry about loosing steering assist. Anyways, power steering is really only useful when you are parking. At speed, steering assist makes very little difference.
2. You have one brake assist charge in the vacuum accumulator. That is, you can apply the brakes once, normally. The next time you brake you have no brake assist, and you have to really lean on the brake pedal hard. Thankfully, I'm a big guy, so that wasn't a problem.
3. Steering wheel LOCKS UP. This is a theft prevention device that almost all cars have. Once you take the key out, the steering wheel would lock in a turned position. It would not lock up if the wheels are facing straight, only if you turn. The locking device is rather flimsy, and car thiefs would often brake it by yanking on the wheel real hard. Unfortunately, at speed this is not an option.
So, here's the algorithm:
1. Your gas pedal gets stuck.
2. You make sure the wheels are facing straight to prevent steering from locking up.
3. You turn off the ignition, put the car in neutral, and turn the ignition back on. The car is in neutral, so the engine won't re-start, but the ignition key is in "Run" position, so the steering won't lock up either.
4. You hit the emergency flashers, lean on the horn, and pull off. Nicely done. Don't forget that your brakes require a lot more control input then normal.
Now, I've done the above procedure, what, 20 or 30 times. It's fun, especially if you have a nervous passenger in the car, who gets scared out of their pants:-). Though the most I got a passenger scared was when I forgot to unlock the glove box before driving, and his lighter was in there. The glovebox in the VW, like most cars, locks with the same ignition key. I pulled the key out, unlocked the glove box, and restarted the engine, and gave the lighter to my friend, all while going 90 mph. Nothing dangerous, considering that the road was really straight, so I didn't even make a face, or even think it was gong to be scary. My friend, however, who wasn't used to this as much as I was, crapped his pants. Pardon my French.
Another option is to simply put the car in neutral. Any manual gearbox allows that, and most automatics would shift to neutral under power too. The engine starts racing, and quickly hits the max RPM stop, but you don't risk getting your steering wheel locked up:-). I would always turn the ignition off, though, since I didn't know if the stupid VW had a max RPM stop, and I didn't care to test it:-).
DISCLAIMER: If you do something stupid and get hurt, it's own damn fault, and don't blame me. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it won't kill you.
UPDATE, more info available (Score:5, Interesting)
Key points translated from the article:
* The driver has tried to use the brakes, but he says they quickly heated up and became ineffective.
* The driver has tried to remove the ignition "key" several times, initially without success.
* Out of ideas and quite afraid, he has called the police, and has soon been escorted by police motorcycles.
* The toll booth had been evacuated and left wide open by the police, all vehicles on the highway (around the toll booth) had been stopped and parked on the emergency lane. Even then, entering the booth at 120 mph would have been quite deadly.
* Fortunately, the driver has stopped the car 12 or 20 miles before the toll booth, by finally managing to remove the smart card that is used as an ignition key on these cars.
* Renault says there are three independant ways the cruise control system can be deactivated: using the brakes; pressing the appropriate button on the steering wheel; switching to neutral gear. The first two are electronic controls, the last one is mechanical.
* Renault says the three systems are fully independant, and it is unlikely they all should fail at the same time. Renault says the car will be brought back to its factories as soon as possible, for inspection.
* The driver was only planning to drive home, a few miles trip, but ended up more than one hundred miles from its planned destination.
In my opinion, he could have stopped the car much earlier, but was panicked. To those who say he should have had no problem removing the smart card, try doing that while controlling a car at 120 mph on a non-empty highway (at one point, he had to overtake a truck by driving on the emergency lane!).
As for the failure, there may be three independant systems, but ultimately, there's only one engine, which can go mechanically wrong.
Saturn story sounds bogus, too (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, when the Saturn driver found himself going back uphill with no power steering or brakes, he would just have to engage the clutch to start the engine back up instantly. Since he doesn't need ignition to get the engine running, it wouldn't even matter if the stupid Saturn didn't give him any gas.
This story smells like the Audi, and the Renault story doesn't smell too good either.
aQazaQa
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wait for the investigation... (Score:2, Interesting)
This happend to me! (Score:2, Interesting)
1971 Datsun Pickup (Score:4, Interesting)
I was driving my dad's red 1971 Datsun pickup on my way to work. (My brother had rolled it a couple times, but it was a Datsun so of course it still ran as good as ever.) A light ahead changed to yellow, and, being about 20 years old at the time, I did what came naturally: I floored it.
Not that flooring a '71 Datsun 1600cc engine had much of an immediate effect. But I did start accellerating, and I made it through the light whilst it was still yellow. Sweeeet. I let off the gas.
The engine continued to rev up.
"Oh, shit," said I. I was up to about 50MPH (in a 45 zone) and accelerating. The next light was about 400 yards away and red, with cars backed up waiting in every lane going my way. It was familiar territory, so I knew the light wouldn't be green before I got there.
I started to panic. I dropped the clutch, and the engine started to wind up. I had no tachometer, but I knew that sucker was gonna tear itself apart if I let it go on like that. I shoved into high gear (4, no overdrive) and engaged the clutch again. Naturally this was a slightly wrenching experience; the RPMs dropped and the vehicle lurched towards the firey doom ahead. In full panic now, I dropped the clutch again with the same result as before. I re-engaged the clutch.
I thought "I am going to die in about ten seconds. Nine. Eight. Oh yeah, the switch."
I turned the engine off and pulled over. Heh. Silly me.
Turns out that the throttle pedal itself was jammed. There was a little mushroom-shaped backstop attached to the firewall, and when I had floored it I had shoved the perdal sideways a bit, and gotten it stuck behind the backstop.
The moral of the story? Panic is not helpful, even the simplest devices can fail, and every powered device needs a kill switch.
I'd just like to add... (Score:5, Interesting)
This car has mechanical power steering and mechanical power brake assist. however, it is incorrect to say that power brakes are just a vacuum booster. Many are, but many are not, especially mid 80s german cars that didn't really draw enough vacuum for a vacuum based brake assist. (Some BMW, Audi, and VW models feature non vacuum assist)
Those vehicles have a hydraulic brake booster which is run as a separate output channel from the power steering pump. The power steering pump cant react fast enough for panic threshhold braking, so such cars have a brake pressure accumulator or "brake bomb" which stores pressurized power steering fluid. This pressurized fluid is what provides brake force assistance. Note that the power steering fluid and brake fluid are separate and do not mix; it's just that the brake power regulator uses stored pressure from the PS system to pressurize the brake system.
I recently replaced the brake pressure accumulator on my BMW.
Now, ancient brake technology dissertation aside - i have _very_ relevant experience regarding loss of steering and braking power.
I was on Brainerd International Raceway in Minnesota with my M5. This racetrack has a 1 mile long front straight, and turn 1 is banked. I was entering turn 1 at about 125mph (its a 4 door sedan, give me some slack) and midway through the turn i felt my steering get a bit "funny". I immediately recognized the loss of power steering. KNowing what i know about the car, i checked the brake pedal and found i had no power braking either.
Turn 2 can also be taken in excess of 100mph in my vehicle, but turn 3 is a 110 deegree turn that can't really be navigated above 50mph in a sedan on street tires. So I had no power steering and no power brakes, and i had to slow down 4000 lbs of vehicle, driver, and passenger from in excess of 100mph to about 40 mph.
This was no problem, honestly. You can do the entire back section of BIR without braking once you get past turn 3 if you're running a cool down lap. I really stood on the mechanical unassisted brakes to get speed down by turn 3, and then i was able to drive the car back into the pits.
The problem? The power steering pump is belt driven, and since the power steering pump also pressurizes the power brake system as described above, when the belt snapped, i lost power steering and power braking. My brake presure accumulator, which normally stores enough pressurized fuild to perform 3-4 full brake applications even in the total loss of engine power and brake assist, was faulty (thats why i replaced it a few weeks later
So, the moral of the story is
1) knowing how your car works is helpful. I got a ride over to NAPA, bought a new belt, and was back on the track for the next session. I remained calm even though i had the most difficult braking maneuver on the track coming up in less than 15 seconds.
2) The key to all driving situations is operator skillset and awareness.
Here's another short story:
Once in my 1980 BMW 528i i was cruising along the highway, with cruise control enabled. This was an aftermarket cruise control system, as it did not come on this specific vehicle from the factory. I opted to take an off ramp (which went up hill, as they often do in the midwest) and when i dipped the clutch the engine started bouncing off the rev limiter. Manually cancelling the cruise control had no effect. This took me quite by surprise so i killed the engine and slowed to a stop on manual brakes.
The cruise control cable had stuck. OPening the hood, wiggling the cable returned the throttle to the closed position.
Note that at BMW Club track events, a specific part of the technical inspection is the condition and function of the throttle return spring. Driving at speed requires nuance in the use of the throttle, a stock throttle can be a real problem.
every system needs a "f (s) ck this!" button (Score:3, Interesting)
have you written one in lately?
Get back to basics. (Score:2, Interesting)
Its called a frayed throttle cable. Interestingly, "driver intervention" is surprisingly low, with drivers stopping only when they run into something.
Other causes that I have seen(I was a mechanic for 15 years before I got involved with the computer side of things:
- "Damper pots" on carburetors work fine controlling the secondry throttle plate, till a rubber o-ring perishes within the carb, and engine vacuum sucks the rubber diaphragm in the pot fully home and the throttle opens fully.
- Piston type accuators that wear, and the piston finally tilts and sticks...at the last speed you were going.
- In some EFI cars, when a vacuum seal of gives way, the lean mixture can be aggresively compensated by the EFI unit, resulting in at least partial throttle.
Some (but a fraction) of vehicles formally identified w/ throttle probs that have resulted in similar results as the article:
- 2001 Ford escape - Water enter servo, throttle sticks.
- Nearly all european cars to 1982 - Poor corrsion ressistance, cable sticks against the outer cable.
-1990 Ranger - Throttle cam wears and sticks against air intake tube, where there was only 1 mm clearance at new.
- Oldsmobile Toronado/Trofero - worn nylon bush. Throttle sticks wide open.
- 1996 Honda Accord/Accura - Carpet by throttle pedal snags pedal, preventing its return.
Renault's put the handbrake on... (Score:3, Interesting)
Their fancy rfid tag ignition key is cute; just plug it in and hit the go button. There is no stop button; you just come to a halt then pull the card.
The moment you pull the card it actually puts the handbrake on. The handbrake comes off when you restart the car, put it in gear and rev the engine.
I didnt have a 125mph chase down the autoroute, but we did have a scary time doing a 3 point turn on an alpine pass in the snow. The road was closed and we had to turn round. But you cannot spin up the engine and clutch then gently come off the handbrake, as you normally do on hill turns. As soon as you hit the accelerator your brakes would come off. So the only safe way to hill starts is to make 100% sure you are in the right gear (ie forwards and not backwards), then hit the accelerator hard. Get it wrong and you drive off the mountain at speed.
I think the Renault line have added a bit too much automation these days. I note the German toys havent gone that far yet -not even Mercedes- and I think they knew what they were doing.
Kill switch (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Any vehicle with an ignition system that can't be turned off the same way it was turned on -- from Renault's new smartcard ignition system, to an old-style lawnmower with a pull cord -- needs a KILL SWITCH! Pressing the kill switch shuts off the flow of gas/spark/whatever to the engine, causing it to stall, and would not have any other side effects such as re-engaging the steering column lock.
2) Pedals usually have different shapes: a horizontal rectangle for the brake (or clutch), and a vertical rectangle for the throttle. These are shaped differently on purpose: when strongly pushed, you should feel the difference in your feet as your shoes bend around the pedals differently! Often, the pedals will even be at different heights: notice the gas pedal is lower than the brake, on most cars.
3) Say what you will about our overzealous product safety/testing/defect laws, but there's a reason Renault cars aren't sold anymore in the US
Re:Never attempt to turn off the ignition. (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, no. The Prius and Civic Hybrid both use electric assist for their power steering and braking systems.
The steering is a simple electric motor that assists with steering force, and the brakes have an electric vacuum pump to maintain vacuum in the system.
The Prius actually uses a "brake-by-wire" system (with hydraulic backup), so the computer controls the braking pressure that gets applied. It does this because the regenerative braking system causes the brakes to be twitchy, so the computer has to make adjustments to smooth it out.