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Vive La Loafing! 649

theodp writes "Bonjour Paresse, an anti-corporation slacker manifesto whose title translates as 'Hello Laziness,' has become a national best seller in France and made a countercultural heroine of its author, who encourages workers to adopt her strategy of calculated loafing in response to dimming prospects of success for rank-and-file employees. Could a translation find a Silicon Valley audience?"
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Vive La Loafing!

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  • by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:16PM (#9982943) Homepage Journal

    Let the weenies that hate their work slack away. When the annual review comes up the people that take pride or work hard will move ahead. Then the weenies will bitch about not being liked, etc. ANYTHING but looking in the mirror and taking responsibility for their place on the ladder.
  • by skrysakj ( 32108 ) * on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:16PM (#9982944) Homepage Journal
    This mostly pertains to France, which is similar to other European countries whereby employees stay at one job, for life, and very rarely get fired.

    I think US citizens should focus on different things, like getting 3 or 4 weeks of vacation per year, not just two.

    Also, some professions are not equal in the USA. Medical residents, for example, are under the same employee laws as everyone else, but routinely work 100 to 120 hours per week. Only *now* are they starting to get tired of it and fight back.
    Good for them, because that kind of thing is outrageous and needs to change.

    Instead of focusing on "Bonjour Paresse", people should focus on working to live, not living to work. [worktolive.info] Or, how to be a good employee [skrysak.com] and not slack off, bringing down the system.
  • by grunt107 ( 739510 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:19PM (#9982990)
    And give businesses more excuses to outsource.

    If you are so worried about the dead-end/exiting nature of the lower/middle jobs, start kissing major butt to move into managment.

    Or maybe start your own business doing something you are interested in.

    And if you still think loafing is the way to go, please do not procreate.
  • Ah the French... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by jav1231 ( 539129 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:20PM (#9983003)
    Let's see, you read this, you get like 1-2 months off every year, then you piss-and-moan about Americans being more successful.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:20PM (#9983008)
    Ho, ho, ho. You must be an Ivy League student. Valuable annual reviews?

    I live on a magical planet where work reviews actually make sense. And there's dogs with bees in their mouths, and when they bark they shoot bees at you.
  • Ummm.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Solder Fumes ( 797270 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:22PM (#9983033)
    So a French author advocates not doing the task in front of you; merely give that so-expressive French shrug with the palms upward. I guess this explains all the French military victories. Merely look like you're fighting a war, don't overdo it! Also: "Given the difficulty of firing employees, she says, frustrated superiors are more likely to move such subversive workers up than out." Let me just say right here that France has got to be quite different from America in this aspect. The firing process in America is a smooth, well-oiled and often-used machine.
  • by Patik ( 584959 ) * <cpatik AT gmail DOT com> on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:24PM (#9983050) Homepage Journal
    then you piss-and-moan about Americans being more successful.
    Gonna back that one up?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:24PM (#9983053)
    As someone who used to work for a multinational before having his job outsourced to india, I'd just like to reaffirm the fact that French people (and many euros) are fucking lazy as hell. It pisses me off that Americans are branded as "fat and lazy" when I'm being paid the same as some dickhead in France, but I'm picking up HIS slack, because he only works 35 hours a week, can't be forced to work weekends, can't be forced to work overtime, is gauranteed something like six weeks of vacation per year, plus gets something called RT every month for another day off.

    Fuck all that. The french don't need a book on how to slack off. Their government fucking ENCOURAGES it to begin with.

  • by Performer Guy ( 69820 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:24PM (#9983058)
    Seems like a self fulfilling prophecy, but French socialists are the first to complain when the little guy actually gets a piece of the action from a company instead of the State.

    The fact is that in Europe tech employees don't benefit as much from options etc whether at startups or larger corporations. The typical reaction however is not to expect better rewards or demand a piece of the pie (with the corporate tax incentives that are required to encourage it) but to tax the hide off profitable corporations and wealthy individuals a.k.a. "fat cats". There are no angel investors in Europe and almost no engineer level guys who made it rich in the rank & file who are then able to comfortably start their own business.

    The typical small business starts out there with one or two guys, no cash (or a bank loan taken against your house) and maybe a grant from the EU or some development commission.
  • by Tailhook ( 98486 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:24PM (#9983061)
    ...as about half the French corporate workforce is on vacation right now. Probably not the best season to try to advise them.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:26PM (#9983078)
    Uh. Working to live?

    You have to LIVE to WORK. The reverse does not hold true. You take the jobs that are available for the price they'll pay doing the things you know. YOU are not the one with the power - the corporations are. Your options are to work the hours they want you to, taking the vacations they want you to, with the benefits they want you to for the salary they want you to (while being potentially laid off any day, with no company loyalty returned to the employee)... OR.... you can refuse to do that and find a $5/hr job flipping hamburgers and live under a bridge.

    Yeah. Working to live my fucking ass. How fucking simple minded.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:27PM (#9983092)


    I would prefer not to.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:27PM (#9983100)
    USA has higher GDP/capita than EU

    US citizens have higher disposable income than EU citizens because US citizens work 40% more hours

    So, Americans are more successful after all.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:29PM (#9983120) Homepage Journal
    The Big Three in Detroit agreed to and signed off on every letter of those contracts, so wouldn't that make the management at least one half responsible for this supposed "audacious slacking"?

    You have to remember, back in the 50's and 60's the automotive industry had a LOT of capital tied up in foundries, assembly lines, parts plants and logistics. I hail from the former heart of GM, Ford and Chrysler where cities grew with the fortunes of these companies and saw first hand the stranglehold the unionized workforce had on this investment. With nowhere else to go for labor (a strike would idle their lines and the competitors would reap those lost sales, and damn few would cross a picket line in a company town) and much of their investment located where the attitudes were complacent, GM, Ford, Chrysler and AMC were sitting ducks for the japanese automakers. The pendulum has swung very far to the other side, now as the companies have considerable strength in negotations (don't ratify the agreement, we'll move to Mexico or China)

  • by GeckoX ( 259575 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:30PM (#9983126)
    Great point. (Not always the case as you have implied, but certainly true much of the time)

    Anyone ever had a job on a roadwork crew?
    What happened when you showed up on your first day and tried to actually work a full day without standing around with your thumb up your ass?

    I quit after 2 weeks of being shown that it is not actually acceptable to 'work' all day long. How people can show up to a job day in and day out and fuck the dog all day every day is beyond me. In my experience this leads to the LONGEST days imaginable. Working is a heck of a lot easier when you actually work. (You know those days where you don't even get a chance to think hardly, and they're typically over before you realize the day was even begun!)

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:30PM (#9983130)
    If you'd bother to read the (very short) article at all, you'd know that actually part of the reason she proposes slacking is in fact to get ahead!

    It's very dependant on the French business climate, but basically she says that since you have no chance to advance through good work (becaue the system is very rigid and based on tenure or diplomas), instead slack off in ways that few people notice - since the system makes it almost impossible (or very unlikley) to fire you, a boss will more likley move you up somewhere else than try to deal with you!

    Now for an American slant - could you please let us all know where you work where your review determines how much you move forward? I have had a great carreer but any movements up have been more about me forcing the issue than being moved up because of good reviews. And I've seen plenty of people move up the ladder without good reviews to back them. Reviews, and pandering to them, are possibly the most pointless waste of time ever invented by humanity.
  • Self-respect (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Rich Klein ( 699591 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:31PM (#9983137) Homepage Journal
    How could I practice calculated slacking and still respect myself?
  • by Mateito ( 746185 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:34PM (#9983186) Homepage
    When the annual review comes up the people that take pride or work hard will move ahead.

    Please give me a one-way ticket to your ideal world.

    The chances that annual reviews will hand out awards in a way that correspondes to reality is basically nil. The problem, widely documented, is that most low to middle IT managers have no management skills. Corperations are failing to instill these skills when promoting good technical people.

    Its Catch 22, we need your technical skills so we promote you, but when we promote you, you manage people.

    That people are slacking THIS badly means that his or her manager should be shot, and they are obviously not excessing control over their team.

  • by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:34PM (#9983191)
    In my experience this leads to the LONGEST days imaginable.

    looking on the bright side, at least it will give you the impression that you live a longer life, as opposed to life in the fast lane...
  • by tumbaumba ( 547886 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:35PM (#9983198)
    >>US citizens have higher disposable income than EU citizens because US citizens work 40% more hours

    >So, Americans are more successful after all.


    Perhaps when you turn forty and get tired of working your butt off you will realize that there more to success than having more disposable income than your neighbor, who can actually spend some time with kids and perhaps teach them something worthwhile.
  • by laigle ( 614390 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:36PM (#9983218)
    What good would that do? I'm still a competent engineer, no matter how much butt I kiss. That means I can't be promoted, or they'd have to find soemone else to fill my slot. It also means I'm ineligible for pay commensurate with my abilities, because management doesn't consider anyone a "real employee" unless they're involved in hyping stock.

    Trying for middling promotions is just polishing the brass on the Titanic. We're not going into economic collapse in the US because of slacking. We're collapsing because management is viciously incompetent, and Wall Street insists on keeping them that way.
  • by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:38PM (#9983255)
    Let's see, you read this, you get like 1-2 months off every year, then you piss-and-moan about Americans being more successful.

    You really don't hear many Europeans moaning about Americans being "more successful". We could be more "successful" (if your definition of success is having more money) here in Europe if we wanted to just by working more.

    However, the culture is very different here. Whereas someone like Bill Gates is looked up to in the USA, in Europe very rich people are not socially looked up to very much. In fact, they are generally looked upon as being greedy.

    Believe me, the main reason Europeans "piss-and-moan" about the USA is because of your foreign policy, especially under Bush.
  • by panurge ( 573432 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:40PM (#9983275)
    Scott Adams famously was an economist working for Bell on ISDN, who concluded it would flop because it was just made too difficult to understand. So he created Dilbert...which is all about dysfunctional corporate culture. I spent 10 years of my life being Dilbert before becoming a PHB, and Dilbert is still so true it sometimes hurts.

    So a Frenchwoman, an economic adviser to the electricity industry no less, does something similar and it's:

    • Jokes about the French (rather than useless management) on /.
    • A disciplinary hearing.
    My conclusion: We're all much the same. And my other conclusion: I hope she makes as much money as Scott Adams. It would go some way to show there is some kind of justice in the world.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:40PM (#9983276)
    I like how this gets modded up without any sign of a statistic (from a source we can believe) to back it up.

    Wanting it to be true != true.
  • by Mateito ( 746185 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:50PM (#9983390) Homepage
    I'm can't speak for the French, but realise that "hours worked" does not equal productivity.

    Chileans are number 3 when it comes to most hours worked, but number 43 when it comes to productivity.

    Maybe US culture still rewards people who spend 80 hours a week with their nose to the grindstone, but in general, people who achieve goals are more highly regarded, whether they do it in 20 hours or 80.

    Work HARD = Work SMART, not Work LONG

    And, yeah, I'm slacking, but I'm putting in my resignation next week (unless I can negotiate an exit package this week).
  • Fuck you (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hard_Code ( 49548 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:51PM (#9983392)
    Slacking must be principled. If you have a pointless job and are going nowhere, ok, slack. On the other hand, if you have a white collar job that allows you to sit in a padded adjustible height chair and browse the internet, you are probably already better off than the vast majority of humanity. It means that some other chump has to pick up the slack because you decide to take out your ennui about the dismal nihilism of life in your workplace instead of confining such gestures to solitary binge drinking on weekends, like the rest of us schmoes do.

    And if you are going to slack, slack productively! Become an activist or a political grafitti artist or something so the rest of us slobs have something amusing to look out on through our windows.
  • by GeckoX ( 259575 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @02:59PM (#9983487)
    Careful, I never suggested I'm living in the fast lane.

    I cherish my time above all else. I work to live and nothing more. I do not and never will live to work.

    I work an 8 hour day 5 days a week on average. I will not work overtime unless it is compensated with flex-time. My work days fly by and the _rest_ of my life gives me the impression of a longer life.

    It's up to us as individuals to make these choices and decisions though, and to stick to them. Our employers are not people, they are corporations and they will use us as much as we let them.

    Choose not to let them, you'll be a happier human being for it I assure you.
  • by bobthemuse ( 574400 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:05PM (#9983552)
    It's very dependant on the French business climate

    No, it's dependent on not being able to fire people who are useless. If you ever work for a unionized public agency in the US, you will see this. Completely incompetent people with no drive whatsoever. Most of them are determined to put in the absolute minimum. Can't fire them, so they get promoted in the hopes that the new hire won't be so bad. Ever wonder why state universities are so top-heavy?
  • More successful? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by leathered ( 780018 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:06PM (#9983561)
    The French drink more, smoke more and do less than most Westerners. Yet they are third in the WHO rankings for life expectancy behind Japan and Australia while the United States languishes in 24th place. All I can say is that the French must be doing something right.

    Americans work harder for longer hours, get paid more but die earlier. The French work less hours, get more holidays and live longer. So who is really the most successful?
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:08PM (#9983585)
    well.. that's just because they grew up and stopped the method used earlier in breaking labour unions: just killing the bosses and bullying the rest.

    (now, how that differs from the soviet union way I honestly don't know)

    anyways.. don't do low value jobs and expect to be paid highly.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TyrranzzX ( 617713 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:09PM (#9983601) Journal
    I believe the goal here is to show bosses that giving the fruits of their workforces labors to the workforce and not to investors or themselves is the key to success. Infact, it is the key to making a capitalistic society go round. Unfortunatly, a corporation exists for the enrichment of investors, workers be damned unless they own voting stock. The workers revolt by working based on their pay; if they're paid minimum wage to stock shelves, they work slow and slack off. If they're paid $8 or $10 to stock shelves, then they work hard.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:10PM (#9983611)
    Michael Moore is actually from a wealthy suburb of Flint. He never lived in Flint itself, and was a line worker for all of one day before deciding he didn't care for it and quit.
  • by Mateito ( 746185 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:18PM (#9983689) Homepage
    We're collapsing because management is viciously incompetent

    Hallajulah, brother!

    Then, do what I'm doing.

    After 5 years of complaining about shit managers, I arrived at "I can do better than that", so I enrolled in an tech-oriented MBA program.

    Recommend it to anyone. You can't lead tech if you don't understand tech and leadership. We are engineers, we learn from manuals. An MBA has plenty of merit. Also has plenty of bullshit and a good dose of religion... but enough hard and real stuff to justify its existance.

    An MBA isn't the problem. People who act like the jerk in the Fedex ad are the problem, and give MBAs a bad name.

  • by bluekanoodle ( 672900 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:20PM (#9983708)
    Here's where you missed it then. Most people who complain about how "I work harder then everybody else in my office, and I don't play the political game at work, i just do my job, and do it well and now I got shafted," don't get it.

    The fact is, that playing the social game is part of your job. Is it written in your job description? No. Do they teach a college course on it? probably not. Don't like it? Tough. It's a harsh world out there and nepotism, favoritism and who you know are just as important as what you know. Deal with it and move on, or drop out, grow some dreadlocks, and blame the man.

  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cubicledrone ( 681598 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:21PM (#9983727)
    regarding the epic scale slacking which contributed to the ills of the automotive industry

    While the hairpieces in middle management heroically toiled late into the night to keep the business afloat, no doubt.

    Funny how the slightest voice in support of workers generates a response of "they're just a bunch of lazy bastards who want more money for less work" along with the obligatory "they're all in unions too."

    The article makes a very important point: that the possibility of success in the average corporate job is zero. That much is quite beyond dispute.

    Now, let's all sing the company song.
  • Nice try (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lorcha ( 464930 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:24PM (#9983751)
    the taxes are almost exactly what I paid in the United States.
    V-A-T
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cubicledrone ( 681598 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:24PM (#9983756)
    You have to remember, back in the 50's and 60's the automotive industry had a LOT of capital tied up in foundries, assembly lines, parts plants and logistics.

    Yeah. A lot of people had real jobs then too, and could afford a house before they started applying for Medicare. Funny how that works, isn't it?
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dravik ( 699631 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:26PM (#9983772)
    I'm not going to pay thousands more for a car that will break down sooner. American auto has not recovered because many of the improvments in manufacturing have been fought by the unions. Most of the processes that increase quality also increase efficancy. If the line is more efficient then you don't need as many workers. The unions have fought everthing that reduces the numbers of workers needed.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:28PM (#9983788)
    work as hard as **you** think you are being paid to work.

    Hooray for the bare minimum and mediocracy!
  • Re:Fuck you (Score:3, Insightful)

    by idiot900 ( 166952 ) * on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:28PM (#9983792)
    On the other hand, if you have a white collar job that allows you to sit in a padded adjustible height chair and browse the internet, you are probably already better off than the vast majority of humanity.

    Just because someone else's life sucks worse than yours doesn't mean it's wrong to be unhappy with how things are in your own life, and want to change them for the better. If calculated slacking does that, then great.

    This "sit down, shut up, and be thankful for what you have" attitude has always bothered me. Improving the circumstances of your existence is self-improvement, and self-improvement is, IMHO, compulsory. It doesn't matter whether you are Bill Gates or some homeless guy on the street. To not try to make the life that you've been given better is a crime.

    On the other hand, you shouldn't be an ass while you're doing it. If slacking in your cushy white-collar job means some worthless paperwork won't be done on time, then great. If you are a doctor and you slack, may you rot in hell.
  • by mvdwege ( 243851 ) <mvdwege@mail.com> on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:29PM (#9983796) Homepage Journal

    In my personal experience, working harder than the slackers just means that the boss will pile even more responsibility (read: work) on your shoulders, until you're about to break.

    Meanwhile, the slackers will just have to do a little more than just slack oof, just enough to get in a decent performance review.

    And worse, because the corporate ladder is actually a pyramid, your chances of climbing the ladder are actually not as good as they want you to believe. The competition for the next highest level job is such that there is a good chance you won't get it.

    End result: not slacking off means more stress for you. And the payoff is effectively wholly dependent on the whims of your superiors, not on your performance.

    Now, if only I could set aside my personal pride and slack off, I wouldn't be so bitter...

    Mart
  • Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:35PM (#9983860)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by laigle ( 614390 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:39PM (#9983882)
    "If your manager doesn't want to pay you more, and you think you are worth more, GO FIND ANOTHER JOB. If you really are good, you'll find one."

    No you won't. Have you picked up a business paper in the last ten years? Even at the height of the dot com "boom" people were working two or three jobs just to break even. That's why all us good worker bees keep showing up for the low wages and the crappy benefits, because the alternative is living in a cardboard box.

    "If you can't find another job, you're probably not worth what you think you are."

    You misunderstand the concept of worth. In capitalism, a good or service is worth what the buyer is willing to spend for it. This price depends on market conditions and on the perceived value. In this case, the buyer (management) percieves the value as virtually nothing, because they don't care about making product, only increasing stock value. And the market is offering them a cheaper alternative due to illegal currency fixing in the Asian market, combined with hideously low standards of living. On top of this, management makes no value distinction within the engineering profession, because they don't understand engineering.

    I understand my value very well. That's why I'm sitting at this desk, taking what I can get.

    "Think about it from management's standpoint. You are willing to take low pay and still work."

    Because my alternative is to take no pay and not work. Fairly easy decision matrix there.

    "What economic benefit is there for the company to voluntarily raise your salary, given that you are already working for the salary you have agreed to -- agreed to through your own inaction."

    They would be able to get a real work day out of their employees. They would be able to hire better employees. They would increase their customer base. They would increase the perceived value of their product in the market.

    "I've tripled my salary in 5 years by advocating for myself, so I speak from experience."

    No you haven't. Jesus, do people honestly think this type of transparent garbage convinces people? Let me guess, you're also the head of a Fortune 500 company, hold seven degrees, are married to a lingerie model, and just discovered cold fusion.

    "Show your value."

    Meaningless phrase in a capitalist system. The market sets your value, not you. Your value is set by a consumer, in this case a wantonly uninformed consumer who happens to be stuffing several items into their pocket while the cashier isn't looking.

    "Show your value. Be dependable. Be consistent. Demonstrate integrity."

    I am. I have. I do. That's why I'm locked into my job. If I weren't, I would be fired. But the same competence and professionalism that gives me job security eliminates the prospect of advancement, because I'm too valuable in my current position. And the lack of advancement insures wage stagnation.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GreyPoopon ( 411036 ) <gpoopon@gmaOOOil.com minus threevowels> on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:44PM (#9983934)
    Unions got you the 40 hour work week, vacations, unemployment insurance, work-place safety, end of child-labor, end of the 16 hour mandatory work day. The worst thing for the economy has been the decline in worker power in the last 30 years. It has allowed concentration of wealth at unprecedented levels.

    Unions are only useful when a company has little or no other place to which to turn. Since labor markets started opening up overseas, the power of the Union has declined dramatically. Funny how the movement of labor to overseas started at about the 30 year-ago-mark that you cited for the beginning of the decline.

    I agree with you that the power of the Union has declined. I agree that the wealthy have taken unprecedented advantage of it. However, I'd like to point out that the rise to power of Japanese automobile manufacturers is a perfect example of what happens when American companies try to "play ball" with the unions. The only reason that American automobile companies are beginning to compete again is because the cost of manufacturing has risen dramatically in Japan.

    Eventually "white collar" workers will realize that unions are the only way to resist.

    All this would do is move jobs to India and China at a faster pace. If you really want to fix the problem, you have to get people to start paying attention to the employment practices of companies from which they purchase goods and services. All of those on-strike unionized workers continued to buy products from other companies who were treating their employees pretty much the same way. If you don't break this cycle, your union has no power at all, and only serves to give the company a reason to start offshoring.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:45PM (#9983941)
    If you really want to see this, work in local/state/federal government. They're full of slackers by definition, and so paranoid about firing people because of all the wrongful termination suits that they'll just transfer you somewhere else. Sort of like passing a hot potato.
  • by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:47PM (#9983962)
    When the annual review comes up the people that take pride or work hard will move ahead.

    My dad once gave me a piece of advice that stuck with me because it was so out of character of my dad to say it.

    He had worked dilligently and hard all his life for a good employer. He did so thinking that that was the way to get to the top - your achiements would be recognised.

    What he told me was, it isn't the people like him who get to the top. It's those that know how to "play the game":

    * take credit for work you haven't done. This espcially works if you have junior staff that want to get ahead - you can ride on top of them.
    * quickly dissociate yourself from projects that go wrong. Subtly point the finger of blame at others.
    * be a nice guy most of the time, but know when the moment is to stab your friends in the back.
    * get others (especially your subordinates) to do your job for you. They'll probably do it better anyway.
    * Make friends with people as high up the ladder as you can. Really suck up to them.
    * etc.

    My dad didn't want me to do any of these things, he just didn't want me to spend my working life under a false illusion.
  • by Ubergrendle ( 531719 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @03:53PM (#9984053) Journal
    I feel for you. I've seen employees -- coworkers, superiors, people who report to me -- lose their focus in life. Corporations and management can easily run over their employees unless they say 'no'. What I've always found surprising is how little negative response 'no' ultimately solicits... I've never seen someone fired for saying 'no' to overtime, or 'no' to working on yet another project, or 'no' to a missed deliverable. At most it only hits your performance rating (in a severe case) which might effect your bonus...if there is a bonus that year. Life is too short to worry about $1,000 - $10,000 extra per year.

    I'm my last organisation I was a middle-level manager. I was on the fast track to a senior manager or director position. But then I looked at my boss and his peers. All were divorced, or unmarried. Workaholics every one of them. And not one of them was physically fit or led a healthy lifestyle. I refused a promotion, and the response was akin to me speaking Farsi. After a few interviews ('why are you refusing a promotion???') the end result was that my boss' peers thought I either had a) personal problems, b) a bad work ethic and I needed career counselling, or c) was holding out for more money. My boss fortunately understood my reasons and didn't take it personally. He was impressed with my confidence, and was also happy that i would continue working for him.

    Nevertheless, the writing was on the wall and I was out on my own accord in 6 months. I took a promotion in another department that promised 9-5 hours (meaning 8-6, with ~occasional~ OT when necessary), and extra vacation. Best career move I ever made.
  • by GeckoX ( 259575 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:07PM (#9984225)
    Don't make the mistake of assuming you have no choice, and that you have made no choices. You have made your bed, and appear to have no problem in lying in it. That's great, but you have made a choice to live your life this way, the company you work for did not force this on you.

    Who is forcing you to work for that employer? Nobody except yourself. Don't like it? Change. Can't find a better employer? Be your own. There is ALWAYS choice.

    Concidering you appear to be sacrificing your own personal life for work, what good is cold hard cash? If you choose to work constantly, why bother with paying for accommodations, transportation, nice clothing, toys, television etc etc. I.E.: What does that cash get you?

    And what does accolades and respect of your colleagues and a better resume get you other than more of the same?

    And how does this make it clear what the more productive choice is? Not that you've convinced me as I already had this view, but your argument reaffirms my convictions that the exact opposite is true.

    Think of it another way, when you're gone will your corporation remember you and your contributions? I know my family will.
  • Too true (Score:2, Insightful)

    by cecirdr ( 553580 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:14PM (#9984298)
    What I'm guessing is....you no longer caused trouble. When you try hard to do a job right, management thinks you're a trouble maker....always in the way.

    See...they want change/success, but they don't want to do anything different about their jobs. So, they want to do the same things day in and day out and somehow the "universe" is supposed to serve them up something different. Odd how little details like cause and effect don't seem to mind to management. If business is bad AND you continue to do business in the same way, it will continue to fail. If someone wants to change things then prepare for a fight/firing.

    So, when you give up and let them be stupid or play along. Then you'll get rewarded...despite how poorly the company might be doing overall.

  • That's the goal (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:15PM (#9984303)
    the goal of a just, modern society is workers who work less for more. The idea that we should all be furious worker bees is crap pushed on us by staggeringly greedy bastards who have been living like kings off other people's backs for as long as human society existed.
  • by phearlez ( 769961 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:33PM (#9984494)
    Yeah, they're of the same breed as the men who whine they don't have any luck with women because they are "nice guys" and not "assholes." The reason they have no luck is that they're wimps who never stand up for what they want (which they mistake for what it is to be 'nice') and nobody - men or women - respects a doormat. They're great to wipe your feet on but you wouldn't take one to bed.

    But I think you misidentify it when you call it "playing the social game" though - this assumes it's necessarily frivilous rather than perfectly reasonable. Being agreeable to your cow orkers means they feel free to approach you for assitance. Putting the big boss's requests above other people's demonstrates a respect for the hierarchy (even if s/he doesn't respect the chain of command).

  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cubicledrone ( 681598 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:58PM (#9984763)
    It really was the good life on very little education.

    Yeah, it was.

    when they found other people in the world could do the same job and would do it for a fraction

    Now that has been expanded to all jobs except management, so the "good life" isn't even available to those with four-year University educations any more. In fact, education has been rendered largely worthless because nothing can overcome the money grab of selling out to the lowest possible wage.

    So, no house, no boat, no university, no cabin, no nothing. It's five to a rent application and hope they don't build a Wal-Mart.

    It's all been sold, and progress it ain't.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @04:59PM (#9984764)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:4, Insightful)

    by serutan ( 259622 ) <snoopdoug@geekaz ... minus physicist> on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:01PM (#9984787) Homepage
    Sounds like you are very happy in your job. Fine. Lots of people are. But there's a reason Dilbert is so popular, and it's not because cubicle-land is utopia. My experience of 25 years in the corporate world as a contractor, working for many different companies, is that managements that treat technical employees like commodities are more common than those that don't.

    Post again someday after you change jobs and work for a manager who is technically clueless yet insists on micromanaging you anyway, who turns vague estimates into hard deadlines, who insists that you work 60 hrs/week to solve the latest crisis caused by his/her own ill-considered decisions, who believes outside consultants and ignores you, who basically wants you to shut and do as you're told and leave the thinking to the smarter, higher-paid people who get stock options. Then come back and preach the joys of your world.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by flacco ( 324089 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:02PM (#9984791)
    The bottom line? My only way to resist is not stealing stuff from works or unionizing. Unionizing would hurt myself and others like me who are well above average in skill, productivity, and value-added to the company.

    that's a nice personal perspective, but what about the (by definition) large majority of workers who are *not* "well above average"?

    true, employment is driven by a series of sticks and carrots, and i don't think we can get away from that; but should human beings necessarily have their destinies dictated by the results of endless "cage-match" style antagonism with their fellow workers (competitors), having nothing but their personal, individual strengths to protect them?

    i think there is a role for collective power in the labor force. sure, everyone wants to maximize productivity, but there is something to be said for smoothing out the distribution of wealth too, and coming to common understandings about what makes a humane, non-hellish work environment. even if you, personally, believe you would do better in a dog-eat-dog environment, you're still living the life of a dog, and consigning those around you (many of whom, admittedly, may have lesser talents than yourself) to the same circumstances.

    organized labor is simply the counterweight to amassed capital in the hands of the economic elite. capital would love to deal with each worker-unit individually, and play one against the other. the role of labor is to realize labor's true worth as a unit.

  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lysium ( 644252 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:05PM (#9984822)
    replacing me would cost between $15k and $30k in training costs as well as anothe $10k-20k in lost revenues while my replacement comes up to speed.

    So you are basically tenured. You have a close rapport with your management, you are functioning well in the niche you have created. As the French author advocated, that is surely the best way to get ahead in a broken system.

    Unionizing would hurt myself and others like me who are well above average in skill, productivity, and value-added to the company.

    Unions are like insurance. Nothing but a drag when things are going well, but nothing is more dear when things are not. Your view, while totally understandable, is rather parochial and self-limited. You don't need to care about the fate of your less-talented and less-fortunate fellows. But if your status or capacities ever change, you may regret it.

  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Phoenix666 ( 184391 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:22PM (#9984992)
    i cannot believe that this was modded up to 5. anyone arrogant and ignorant enough to believe that blue collar workers are just "human machines" and that white collar workers are somehow more intelligent and skilled either has a lot of growing up to do or desperately needs a visit from the down-sizing fairy.

    the fact is, rare indeed is the employee who does not do the same task over and over again, white-collar/blue-collar be damned. my brother is an engineer with ford motor company. he graduated with honors from carnegie-mellon. know what he works on now, day in and day out? hood fasteners. they could just as easily replace him with another engineer to design hood fasteners as they could the union guy assembling them on the line. it is, my friend, the hallmark of working for corporate America. they do not want you to be indispensable, because then you are irreplaceable. they dedicate entire management training sessions to making sure that the enterprise is not exposed to that sort of risk.

    unions protect their members against the amoral, artificial persons known as corporations. if you are not an executive with a high priced lawyer, or in a union that can protect your livelihood, then you are vulnerable. from the sound of it, your turn is long overdue, and mazeltov! redefining the meaning of "blue collar" and "white collar" to suit your current situation won't seem so cute then.
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:31PM (#9985091)
    Or to summarise...
    I'm white collar and costly to replace, therefore these blue collar issues are beneath me.

    You sir are one arrogant bastard.

    Human machines? You are the kind of trash that unions protect against.
  • by madcow_ucsb ( 222054 ) <slashdot2@sanksEULER.net minus math_god> on Monday August 16, 2004 @05:56PM (#9985308)
    You took the words right out of my mouth. It's not that the French are born to be slackers. It's that we Americans are born to be workaholics.

    Frankly, very few of us do important enough work that if we put in 35 hour weeks instead of 80 the world would collapse in on itself. I mean, I take pride in what I do, but come on.
  • by jvalenzu ( 96614 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @07:32PM (#9986176) Homepage
    If you haven't been permanently banned from moderating slashdot yet, it means you weren't doing a very good job moderating.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @09:42PM (#9986929)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:Slacker Thee (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Julia Cameron ( 616578 ) on Monday August 16, 2004 @11:42PM (#9987799) Journal
    • Or to summarise...

      I'm white collar and costly to replace, therefore these blue collar issues are beneath me.

    Oh aye, sure. In Scotland we have a saying:'Self-praise comes aye stinkin ben.'

    You are of course referring to blue-collar workers, like stone masons, and the sort of highly-skilled tradesmen who have been on the job for yonks and have seen it all. They have an eye for material that even with my experience and education I will never achieve. I'm a structural engineer, and the old fellows know that they can come up to me and point out anomalies in material that only the most practised eye can spot. I am always aware that despite my lofty status and advanced degrees, my buildings are no better than the crews who work on them. The structures are no stronger than my design, and the materials that go into them.

    • You sir are one arrogant bastard.

    Have you considered that you too can be replaced, and probably will be replaced someday. It will most likely occur when you become too costly, and they find someone younger who can do your job for less pay. Even with your replacement's training factored in, at some point it will be more economical for them to sack you and hire some younger person to take your place.

    • Human machines? You are the kind of trash that unions protect against.

    We are all doing the same job over again, to some degree. Steelwork differs between projects, but it isn't programming, or cardiac surgery. Corporate executives see you no differently than you see some poor soul collecting rubbish by the side of the highway.

    Only the greatest artists are irreplaceable, though even then other great artists come to fill the void they leave. The rest of us are simply competent, or merely brilliant. If you are deluded enough to think that your skills elevate you in management's eyes, and that those skills are sufficient to insure you job security for life, you're living in Cloud Coo-Coo Land. Unless you own the company, you have no control at all, and like the poor soul who picks up rubbish along the roads, your fate is at the mercy of other people. The reason for unions -- call it 'professional representation', if you require fawncy terms to prop up your snobbish façade -- is that there is strength in numbers, and protection for the individual when people stand together.

  • by wayoutwest ( 471539 ) on Tuesday August 17, 2004 @12:00AM (#9987894) Homepage
    That is precisely what I have done - and five years later, we are looking at our second profitable year in a row (last years profits were less than $1000, and we paid no salary).

    We lost everything in the great dot com bubble burst - our 401k lost 80% of its value and stock options weren't worth the paper they were penned on. I was not laid off, but my days were certainly short - the company, Global Crossing, went down the tubes less than 6 months after I walked away from my comfy System Admin position and fat salary.

    My husband and I decided to live inexpensively and search for a niche market that we could be happy working in. We fell in love with the rugged back country of South East Utah. We tried several business models - one failed - some didn't get off the drawing board - and two are actually creating jobs for more than just myself and my husband. And two other business concepts are simmering and need employees to take off - I can only do so many jobs at once.

    We did it all with no financial backing from banks, govt or venture capitalists. We sacrificed all the comforts that most people could not live without.

    We purchased a modest home in a remote rural town for $38,000 and we've been building our skills and dreams ever since. We've worked low skill near-minimum wage jobs to ensure the house payment gets made. We've raised chickens and gardens to supplement our food stores. I've not had a car with air conditioning for nearly 5 years now. Did I mention I live in a desert?? One of our cars was purchased for $300 the other for $100. We work seven days per week and 14+ hours per day. But no one is going to lay us off. And the fruit of our labors is just beginning to ripen.

    I formed a business incubator to help my business through low cost office space ($10/year). We've recently moved out of the incubator and into our own office. Business this month is 200x better than it was one year ago.

    As for employees, I am just starting to search for the right people to help expand our business endeavors. I get to learn all about employee taxes and insurance. Now, my biggest obstacle is finding talented and intelligent people out in the styx ( the gene pool is a wee bit shallow out here), or luring compentent people out from the various silicon valleys - people who are sick of working for something that has no lasting value. Guess how many I've get beating down my door to take a huge paycut - so far, zero. I plan to post an internship on Craigslist this fall, I hope to find someone smart enough and worthwhile of my time and investment to further grow our business.

    Until now, we haven't been able to expand or offer jobs that are guaranteed to pay the bills. I asked a couple dozen different friends to come out and put a stake in what we are building. No one came. But we have made this happen without all those things that are generally listed as needed to build a business. It CAN be done. Not by just anyone, but by those that are willing to make huge sacrifice and a long term commitment to making it happen.

The moon is made of green cheese. -- John Heywood

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