Chinese Government to Use Only Local Software 534
owlmon writes "CNET Asia is reporting that China has outlawed foreign software in government applications. I expect that software buyers outside of the government will have to follow this lead. It's the same "network effect" that has powered Microsoft's growth for years. When the entire Chinese government is using WPS Office, anyone doing business with the government will feel mighty encouraged to follow suit. Otherwise, how will they exchange documents?"
They won't buy our software... (Score:2, Interesting)
Nice to see ! (Score:4, Interesting)
Logic: No.
GPL (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder: (Score:5, Interesting)
Would Linux and other open source be considered "local" if there are Chineese contributors?
OpenOffice support? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:World standards (Score:3, Interesting)
If only it were *really* local (Score:3, Interesting)
But as it is, it's all going to be based on software written in English-ish programming languages, isn't that right?
So, I can understand the urge to go local, but I don't think they're going far enough. Imagine the impediment we would face if we had to learn how to write software for an OS that was based on, say, Mandarin. How many of us would really have ended up taking to computers?
So doesn't that apply in reverse?
And to make matters worse, they say English is the hardest second language to learn. And most of the advanced texts in CS are in English. The HOWTO's are all in English (yeah I know there are foreign language versions but let's be real, it isn't as complete or as up-to-date as the ones in English.)
Re:World standards (Score:3, Interesting)
YES!!!! This is the best news I've heard all year! (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you know what this means for the open source movement? Better yet do you know what this means for the global economy? This changes the whole dynamics of the game.
Now China will have two options, develop an alternative to Microsoft Windows using open source, or develop an alternative to microsoft windows which is closed source.
Either way, we will get better software through competition, this is good for capitalism, good for the user, good for the software industry, and I cant see anything bad coming from this. I hope they take Redhat Linux and make it standard in China.
Data Conversion Between Packages? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:World standards (Score:5, Interesting)
Unlike private users, governments should take public interest into account when buying software. For example, US government could do well to avoid buying software from companies that have excessive foreign development centers
They can still exchange documents with the rest of the world by exporting them to some standard format, like HTML or RTF. If there is no software to do it, government's demands will sure encourage some local programs to be written.
It would be another matter if they forced common people use a specific word processor, with a nice keyword scanner that reports suspicious documents to the government. Its not out of the question in China, and perhaps in US. But that's something unrelated to this article.
Re:Not so bad (Score:3, Interesting)
I went to an office supply store and the little girl there had NO CLUE ON PLANET EARTH what carbon paper is. She didn't even know what isle to begin looking on, she thought it might be with the inkjet cartridges when I told her it was a special paper for making copies of handwritten or typewritten documents.
She even told me she had never seen a typewriter before but had heard of them. She thought is was some sort of word processor. (Yeah, it was one of the first!)
It's amazing how fast we've thrown out the old.
Even in movies all you ever see is some dipshit banging at a keyboard and they aren't even typing, much less do they comprehend what it is they are supposed to be doing (as an actor).
I haven't seen a typewriter in a movie for years now. FWIW, I still have a manual, 1941 Underwood at my office. I keep it just because it keeps me in touch with the past. It still works too..
Who cares? They cant afford our software (Score:5, Interesting)
Guess what, We cant afford our software, you go buy photoshop, I'll use Gimp.
Do you think I care if they dont buy our intellectual property when I dont own any of it and dont profit from any of its sales? Do you think I care if they pirate music when artists dont even own the copyrights on the music?
Its not a matter of them buying our goods, if their goods are better and cheaper why not buy theirs? Sure I prefer to buy goods made in the USA to support the US economy, but I'm not rich, so a choice must be made, if our products are equally as good and the same price I'll always buy ours, but if their products are better and cost less I'll be forced to buy theirs.
Either way their cheaper products will force the price of our products down, this will help the economy.
Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
It is interesting to see an oppressive government fighting for its freedom from an oppressive corporation.
It looks like both sides are getting a taste of their own medicine.
How? (Score:2, Interesting)
Text files? Other non-proprietary standard formats?
Makes sense (Score:4, Interesting)
If Microsoft wants to stay on top, they will have to distance themselves from the US government, or they will simply not be trusted.
Or perhaps it's too late...
Free Software? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a very good thing (Score:3, Interesting)
China gains in the short term by throwing off the handcuffs offered by BG. and Co.
Open-source gains down the road when China starts giving back. This may take a few years, but once open source gets a foothold in China it will be massively adopted (We are seeing this right now) but more importantly, we might be seeing the start of a common language for China.
What we get back from the Chinese via the GPL may be more than we bargained for.
And I am hoping uniting China under a Free software initiative will perhaps take on a life of its own.
Re:While I despise the communist government, (Score:2, Interesting)
I mean china was SOOOO much better before communism right?
I hate tards that think everyone communist country was like fucking Florida before the evil commies came and ruined it!
The REASON those countries went communist in the first place was because it was EVEN WORSE BEFORE the revolutions man!
You can't go from totally backwards despotic agrarian culture dominated by imperialism and then turn into western europe in 30 years!
If you look at where china is headding right now it's going for world power status fast and it's definatly scaring western governments. Just wait until it is fully industrialized and has full IT infrastructure. Watch out now. You can expect heavy anti-china propoganda spewing out of every western media outlet in the coming years. Oh well to bad...Time for the white people civilization to go the same place islams great civilization went...
Re:Slashdot users world wide now conflicted (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:While you despise the communist government, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Conversion Filter? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not an expert in these things, but isn't it possible that these conversion filters become illegal because of the DMCA ?
Re:Free Software? (Score:5, Interesting)
GPL (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Double-edged sword (Score:3, Interesting)
In traditional Chinese literature, which includes abundant pornography, it has always been considered a matter of good taste that an author who is proud of his works will sign it pseudonymously. Indeed, writers such as Confucious are not, in fact, individual persons, but popular pseudonyms. This is a well known fact.
Re:They dont have to, who cares? (Score:4, Interesting)
I understand your exaggerating to make your point but I really doubt that any who sits back and really thinks about the actual impact of this would agree with you. Once you close the loop and force people to use a particular product or source, then your virtually creating a monopoly which as we all know tend to resists doing any real innovation (because frankly they don't have to) to soak up more profits. The real solution to getting better programs is to put them in place via investments/grants/R&D/tax brakes etc, reduce your government IT budgets and give the pencil pushers a choice. We all know the dangers in either making it too easy or too difficult when it comes to government pencil pushers. They'll end up doing what's easier for them and not necessarily what's best.
Just look at it from a business point of view...what better environment exists to create a lovely company?... 1) find a government that's thinks it needs a software industry to protect against the Americans, 2) grab some free software who's licenses/patents aren't particularly valid under the given government's rules, 3) hire a few severely underpaid code monkeys to make the necessary changes, 4) sit back as huge wads of money start to fall from the sky, 5) hire marketers to ensure that the government keeps coming back for regular upgrades until they become so dependant that they don't consider anything else.
Why innovate when you can suck the system dry when both parties are happy: the government feeling good about supporting the local community, and the business who's sitting in huge piles of cash..... Kinda reminds me of the Microsoft/IBM deal.... And we all know what happened there...
Anyhow didn't want to bring you down, we can always hope that your view prevails, but the realist in me just can't see it happen.
Re:GPL (Score:5, Interesting)
anybody remember...? (Score:1, Interesting)
Theories:
1)China looks upon the code of Evil and flees.
2)China looks upon the code of Evil and thieves.
Re:staggeringly naive (Score:3, Interesting)
It is no great leap of imagination that when all code can contain spyware, spyholes, hidden data, etc., that "opening the source" is a big step towards trust.
In China, there are many factions to the power base. If the source code for software is not open, then even these factions cannot trust each other. Maybe a general put in special spy code. Maybe the information ministry put in special spy code. The possibilities are endless. The only solution is keeping the source open. A government that fights too much within itself will not stand strong for very long.
It is easy to see why China is going with open source. If a general or minister puts in spyware, it can be spotted. If China went with Microsoft, a general could bribe Microsoft to put in special spyware for the general's use that no one else could detect. It is obvious that a government that wants to minimize useless fighting within itself will go with open source. Using open source to foster internal trust may even end up being a survival trait.
As an aside, when it comes to the USA, why would people blindly accept the Microsoft Palladium/DRM/1984-ware OS that is going to be shoved down their throats -- with no source available? This system enables a single monopoly, obviously in cahoots with the government, to be far more oppressive than what China is doing, at least so far.
As Microsoft has been proven in US court to have ruthlessly predated on businesses and citizens of their own country, I would think the government of any nation would be wary of working with Microsoft. As has been shown in the USA, if you let Microsoft operate in your country, you are inviting a vampire into your house that will suck the life blood from you.
Thus in a very simple sense, China could be merely picking "something else" so they get the Microsoft vampire out of their country. It makes perfect sense to go with home-grown software as they'd know the companies, the products, and the people who work there. That's far more secure for national interests than having a foreign vampire roaming around, stealing your secrets and continually causing problems with their insistence on high prices and Western IP laws.
Re:Double-edged sword (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry.
On a similar note ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Back in 2002 one of the Danish Prime Minister's opening speeches written in Office XP was made available on the Net. The document included previous drafts which could be rolled back.
The drafts revealed that he did not write the entire speech himself, and of course, also things which should have been left "unsaid". I remember the "unsaid" part caused a bit of a stir - to some extend it revealed a sort of a hidden agenda with regards to some political issues.
Afterwards it was said that this would never happen with classified documents, such as NATO documents.
Sure!
zRe:Free Software? (Score:3, Interesting)
My response would be the same should Suse rebrand their distro as Reich Linux, or the CIA released Uncle Sam Linux.
Re:not so Hmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
It certainly sounded as if you were saying there was no alternative to Word for that specific use (math layout), so I was pointing out others, possibly superior ones. As I work in publishing I've become aware of the tunnel vision that has afflicted publishers in recent years. Five or ten years ago you could submit files in several formats if you followed specific guidelines. Now editors with experience have been downsized and layout is done by staff who know how to copy from Word and paste into Quark, and nothing more than that.
As for general communication, I dread receiving bloated Word files, which have to be scanned for viruses and which all try to hijack my own settings.
Word is fine for composing, but it's absurd as an exchange format. If billg had got into the Internet sooner, instead of disdaining it, we would quite likely now be using doc files instead of HTML, but fortunately by the time he decided to take over the net HTML was established. But he has somehow convinced people to exchange simple memos in doc files instead of plain (or enriched) text emails.
Re: That's local *commercial* software... (Score:3, Interesting)
b) Stem hemorrhaging of information via spyware.
I think you're much more correct with a) than with b). This is the same reason that China has developed its own processor. China wants to cut economic ties as much as possible to the US, particularly in the economic sector. This move, of turning to Red Flag Linux, was expected for a while now.
But as China follows this path, the US may lash out economically. Or maybe the US will just start a new opium war [wikipedia.org]. It will be interesting to see the US reaction as China tries to free itself from US influence. The really big question is how will China free itself from US oil protectorates (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc.)? Maybe alternative fuels...
smart people... (Score:1, Interesting)
I would have done the same really, as a country with at least 1/4 of the people on this earth you cannot let people like MS's management walk through your plans.
I think the Chinese Government looks over longer term with their future plans than the shortsighted US governmant.
Re:So, you've decided to steal movies... (Score:3, Interesting)
Read up on the stories of people involved in the music industry - to pick one at random - Bill Nelson [billnelson.com]. Recently Bill Nelson discovered that his first successful band Bebop Deluxe where not only earning royalities but he had not seen a penny of them. This kind of story is rife - when royalties are paid the contracts are often unfair and explotative.
So - is it wrong to steal from the music industry - yes of course it is. Do I care that people are stealing from them: no not much.
Format? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Double-edged sword (Score:4, Interesting)
But the simple answer to your question is that in the history of Chinese literature there are five works called the five classics. All of these were written by pseudonymous authors. Basically, you can't claim authorship and hope to become a classic in Chinese literature. It's an unwritten law --Confucius say. Nah, just kidding.
But among the five classics is the Jin Ping Mei and I've read bits and pieces of it in Chinese, and several English translations and I can tell you that for the vast portion, it is pure porn. It's porn in the sense that there's no plot. It's just descriptions of positions, partners and sex scenes back to back over and over. In fact, it's got some similarities to Sade in the way it's so repetitive.
But despite being porn, it's still considered a classic. And other books among the classics also contain explicit sex scenes like the Dream of the Red Chamber although that's clearly not a pornographic work like the Jin Ping Mei.
I would suggest that the interweaving of sexuality into a culture represents a level of cultural maturity that is still mostly undeveloped in the West. And --watch him stretch it really thin-- you would expect the GPL to work best in mature and open cultures.
Having said all this, I realize you can easily demonstate that the current Chinese goverment is almost the opposite of these things. Indeed, the Jin Ping Mei is not legally distributed in Mainland China under the current government.
But my underlying position is that when you're talking about China you should speak of the greater culture that is China and is the real shared identity of the people of Mainland China, rather than the tenuous and questionable leadership in posion today.
Re:There are more chinese, just do the math. (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember, that these days you'll probably find most of the 'american' cars are actually mexican (wheres the factory!) anyway.
But with a computer , your typing into the factory as you speak!!!!!!! Thats the joy of software economics. Any geek can make a program with the right tallent. Two geeks can make twice as much.
Thus as the personal PC enters more chinese homes, more scruffy chinese geeks will be working on linux and home brew mandarin friendly software.
Either way, as a direct competition to american software, the US industry will have no choice but to hire more american geeks to write more competitive software , so its not a bad thing for americans either way.
Yipee.
Document formats (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:GPL (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:World standards (Score:4, Interesting)
The DVD companies aren't the only ones to use regional branding.
If the Chinese Govt. goes for proprietary software (Score:1, Interesting)
China may be big, but it's not THAT big. They'll eventually give up on any private company's offering, even when it's within the country, because it's quite likely that for business and personal purposes, the Chinese people will not use the government's choice, but the international one.
So if the government supports open-source, it's a good thing all around. If it doesn't, it'll be a setback but not a mighty one.
If we replaced "China" with "Sweden"... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Hurray for advanced socialist societies that care! First health care, then the software industry."
"Good for them! Anything to reduce Microsoft's power."
"Those Europeans are smart, they'll save a lot of money this way."
Ah well. At least not all of the comments in this thread were completely negative.
What about local software development (Score:1, Interesting)
If I am Microsoft, or HP or IBM and I set up a Chinese based software development lab (and many have) employing hundreds of software engineers, does this legitimately count as locally produced software. Certainly the Chinese Govt. would not want these labs shut down and, if this story had any creedence, you can bet that MS and many others would pull out. So the question remains, is this just a ploy by the Chinese Govt. to create an additional loophole to mandate sofware firms wanting to sell software into China into having to set up a "Development labs?" (think jobs, skills, knowledge sharing)
This is probably more likely. And I know this story is only talking about desktop software, but it would only be a small step to transition this "law" into the back office too.