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Steve Jobs And The Oh-So-Cool iMac

Posted by JonKatz on Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:00 PM
from the what's-cool--what-works-what-doesn't dept.
From the first, this has been a cornerstone idea at Apple Computers: make stuff that is cool and hip enough and it will eventually succeed. Until recently, this foolish idea permeated the hacker culture as well -- if it's neat, it's good. Initially, Apple was a welcome antidote to the elitism and cluelessness of the tech elites who designed early computers. Although that seems a long time ago, the early idea behind Apple was revolutionary -- make computing accessible to everyone, not just coders and programmers. But the recent history of software development, networked computing and the Net suggests that now just the opposite is true: being cool is nice, but it's not nearly enough. Steve Case and Bill Gates have known this for awhile. Nobody would ever label them cool, just stunningly successful.

The truly successful technologies and technology companies are utilitarian and dull -- decidedly non-hip. You will never seen a Microsoft or AOL exec talking about how cool the their companies or products are, only how useful and easy to use. They don't really care how much heavy breathing they generate in the media or among excitable teenagers and college students. Those two companies have, in fact, dominated their environments by pointedly focusing on the non-technologically adventurous middle-class and busy business executives and workers and by presenting themselves not as cool but as reliable and accessible. And for this sin they get jeered at -- all the way to the bank. Their motives may be money, greed and power, but they understand what really drives technology in America and much of the world. Steve Jobs does not.

The tech media have served as enablers and co-dependents in Steve Jobs' sometimes-brilliant marketing impulses. Last week, the volatile Jobs projected himself onto the cover of Time magazine by unveiling the oh-so-cool new iMac, a computer as entertainment/culture center, a "hub for music, pictures and movies." It's elegant and affordable, says Time, and takes up little desk space, "but will millions of PC users get it?"

Probably not.

Gates understands something Jobs and media don't. When it comes to technology, it's middle-class consumers and their tastes, needs and expectations that determine success or failure. This is a hard lesson for many hackers and programmers too, who remain bewildered that superior systems like Linux aren't on every desktop. But the middle class, for years abused and exploited by the arrogant tech industry (just think of what poor Comcast subscribers have been going through for weeks now), wants easy of use, safety, utility. Just consider at the telephone, the automobile, or for that matter, Wal-Mart. Apple has demonstrated for years, and so, to some degree, has Linux. Harry and Martha in Dubuque decide which products will enter the mainstream and last, not college kids editing movies or downloading music and DVDs, or using firewire ports to fiddle with video clips.

Apple, perenially aspiring to coolness, has always been the favorite computer of the non-hacker hip and the creative. And of many people (like me) whose entry onto the Net and Web has been made easier for the first programming language that really made sense to non-techies. Jobs' colorful, well-designed, fun and entertainment-centered iMacs and Powerbooks have been getting fabulous press for years. His idea to fuse the desktop with pop culture is, in fact, a powerful one. But it's too soon. The middle-class isn't ready for that. Most Americans don't need the 1,000 songs the iPod can store, and would rather go to the megaplex than edit movies on their computers.

So Apple accounts for only 4.5 per cent of new personal computer sales, according to Gartner Dataquest.

That's probably because Jobs hasn't addressed the central problem facing computer makers: the public doesn't trust them. Burned by years of outrageously poor tech support, increasingly expensive software, and hardware that's almost instantly outdated, middle-class consumers aren't the least bit interested in the coolest new new thing. They want computing that works like TV does -- that's easy to use, takes little space, costs relatively little money and works every time you turn it on, year after year. The public is increasingly wise to tech scams like hardware that's obsolete every 18 months and software that doesn't even last that long. Computers -- even the jazzy new iMac -- are a long way from reliability, and are profoundly mistrusted. In fact, it was only a couple of years ago that the candy-colored iMacs were the next cool thing. Now they're about as hip as Windows 98.

If you're a teenager, Web designer, film editor or visual arts major, or even a loving Grandma, it's great that the iMac allows you to create your own DVDs, organize and edit digital pictures, play CDs or convert MP3's, turn home videotapes into high-quality edited films. What's less clear is whether or not the public -- especially that critical middle-class chunk of it -- wants to do those things on a computer, or is confident about its ability to use machinery that's still more complicated and problematic than its makers seem able to admit.

For nearly a generation now, from Jobs to the makers of instant replay TV machines, some of the best minds in the tech world -- usually the younger ones -- have been crippled and misled by the confusion between what's cool and what's going to be successful, between what's neat and what's necessary. The survivors of the Net's first generation -- brilliant plodders like Gates and Steve Case -- understand quite well that they aren't the same thing, and have, as a result, increasingly come to dominate the Net.

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  • Total gibberish (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ars-Fartsica (166957) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:05PM (#2842687)
    So I'm to understand from this article that if Apple didn't focus on design, they'd have more than 4.5% market share?

    I don't think its a stretch to for Jobs to concede that MS won the operating system war - thats why he is trying to fight the total user experience war - something MS can't do unless it wants to start making boxes.

    I think Jobs is an egomaniac, but he's also driven by some very appealing ideas about consumer computing, and I'd take his strategy over Katz's punditry any day of the week.

    • Re:Total gibberish by mick88 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:11PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by fredrik70 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:01PM
        • Re:Total gibberish by OwnedByTwoCats (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:39PM
          • Re:Total gibberish by Unknown Bovine Group (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:16PM
          • Re:Total gibberish (Score:4, Insightful)

            by JWW (79176) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:18PM (#2843885)
            Oh and be sure to add the $700 DVD burner to the Dell if you want a fair comparison to the iMac with the superdrive.

            That always seems to be left out.
            [ Parent ]
          • Re:Total gibberish by SilentChris (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:29PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:Total gibberish by Lurker (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:10PM
          • Re:Total gibberish (Score:5, Informative)

            by gig (78408) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:37PM (#2845419)
            > Price for the Dell: $1,741 versus
            > $1,799 for the iMac.
            > iMac advantage: FireWire

            Well, a $40 FireWire card for the Dell brings the price points within $20.

            > Dell advantages:
            > DDR SDRAM vs SDR SDRAM

            I'm wondering if anybody notices this kind of thing once Windows is running (or should I say walking?). Windows has so many latencies and bottlenecks ... it's just hard to imagine that the user could tell the difference at all.

            > 80 GB HD vs 60 GB HD

            Most people will never notice, and the iMac is always, always ready to receive an external FireWire hard disk just by plugging it in, without any drivers to install. You just plug in and you instantly have more storage. You can boot from that external storage, too. No problem.

            > 64MB GeForce 2MX vs 32 MB
            > GeForce 2MX

            The 64MB GeForce 2MX in the Dell is heavily, heavily compromised by the analog connection to the display. What the user actually sees will be faster on the iMac, with no ghosting or blur. I have both a digital and an analog flat panel here, and I can really, really see the difference when I go to the older machine with the analog connection. Why connect a digital graphics adapter to a digital display with an analog connection? Doesn't make sense today. Apple stopped doing this years ago.

            > Scrollwheel mouse with 3 buttons vs 1-
            > button mouse

            $20 value. You could look at this from a consumer perspective and say "OS only requires one mouse button, not three". In other words, the iMac user can use one or more buttons, while the Dell user can use only two or more buttons. Mouse choice is a personal thing, though, so go ahead and get a third-party mouse and plug it into the iMac. No driver install will be neccessary, either.

            > 1 yr phone support vs 90 day phone
            > support

            The included phone support on the iMac is paltry, but for $300, you can get an AppleCare plan that gives you free phone support for 3 years, as well as a full warranty for 3 years. They basically take care of you like they were your IT department. And if you call up and you don't know square one about computers, they don't treat you like an idiot. They don't ask you to get inside the thing and test stuff.

            iMac advantages you didn't mention are:

            easier to set up
            UNIX compatibility
            much, much smaller size
            higher-quality display
            digital connection between graphics adapter and display
            built-in 802.11 antennae for the best range
            56k modem is a real modem, not WinModem, so you can install Linux and still use your modem
            iMac can mirror its display on an external VGA display, or a TV
            easy to use, high-quality software included for making DVD Video discs (iDVD 2)
            OS level support for writing data DVD's and CD's as easy as floppy disks used to be (just drag and drop stuff onto the disc in Finder)
            no need for anti-virus software and update subscriptions
            easy to use digital photo management software with advanced photo printing features for best results with your own printer, and easy ordering of Kodak prints and photo books
            iMacs music management software is fully MP3 (no WMA), and is fully featured and not crippled at all
            no need to get a Microsoft Passport, or even interact with Microsoft at all
            included UNIX software like Apache, emacs, vi, etc.
            included office suite (AppleWorks) with MS Office compatibility, and very, very, very easy to use
            can boot from any attached storage, including CD's, FireWire disks, iPod, SCSI disks, whatever
            boot in Target Disk Mode, and the iMac acts as a FireWire disk you can plug into another computer in order to access the internal drive at high speeds (excellent for service and support people)
            iMovie is the best consumer video-editing software, and it's included in the iMac's price.
            low-latency audio is possible with even the internal audio on the iMac, and a $35 USB audio adapter can give you low-latency 24-bit stereo audio just by plugging it in and using it (again, no drivers or software to install) ... by contrast, you have to use ASIO (lots of software to configure) and PCI (internal card to add, have to open the box) to get even medium-latency audio in Windows
            overall, the Mac and UNIX software platforms offer much higher quality than Windows software ... Apache and Final Cut Pro are best of breed and don't run on Windows
            better design, better "fit and finish"
            easy open RAM door, so the end user can install RAM without even risking losing a screw
            higher RAM capacity
            more standards support (even the Mac's "BIOS", called Open Firmware, is an IEEE standard ... it's also used by Sun)
            graphical boot loader built into the Firmware, so you don't have to play boot loader tricks to run multiple operating systems (in fact, it identifies attached Linux volumes with a cool Penguin icon by default)
            the hard drive in the iMac is the loudest component
            iMac wakes from sleep almost instantly and doesn't need to be rebooted or switched off thanks to Mac OS X and Apple's deep sleep modes
            Mac OS X is a full multi-user UNIX compatible OS; the Dell's Windows XP Home runs everything as root

            I could go on about this for a long time, because I've put in a lot of time on both Mac and Windows systems. Mac OS X itself is outrageously better than Windows. I mean, forget the hardware, forget the RAM and the HD and whatever else ... you're just treated much, much better in Mac OS X ... things don't pop up and market to you, simple stuff is simple, not so complex that you need a "wizard" to get it done ... there is no hardware tree to constantly troubleshoot, no drivers to mess with, no forced registration, and the core is OPEN, which means that there won't be any "content protection" coming to Mac OS X anytime soon. You can boot it into single-user mode, you can login to a plain console, you can run 50 translucent terminal windows over your mainstream software. You have a clean, well-organized file system with application bundles, that turn an application's folder with 800 files in it into one icon that you can move or rename and the app doesn't break.

            Honestly, to someone who has used both, your Dell vs iMac argument looks WEAK. Very, very weak. You're treated better at every turn with the Mac. While the rest of the industry has increased the numbers in their specs over the past few years, Apple has been very busy actually improving the personal computer. It's been adding up for years now and the new iMac plus a mature Mac OS X is the breakout for all this stuff that they've been pretty quiet about until now. Try one out at an Apple Store ... talk to users. You'll be surprised at what you're missing.
            [ Parent ]
          • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Total gibberish by felicity (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:28PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by notfancy (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:19PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by jchristopher (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:35PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by dogmeant (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @06:19PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by Alan Partridge (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:46PM
      • What stops me from using a Mac? by nicestepauthor (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:59PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Total gibberish by sehryan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:17PM
    • Re:Total gibberish (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Mark Hood (1630) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:19PM (#2842827) Homepage
      By Katz's argument McDonald's is better than the 5* Michelin-Approved restaurant down the road...

      When was the last time someone said 'wow, I had a great burger yesterday?' - Mickey D's might make more money, be in more cities, may even be the staple food of millions, but no-one can ever say that THAT is the sole benchmark of success.

      Jobs has a very different view of success, as was pointed out in a very insightful article by Bob Cringely. [pbs.org] Mac & Linux users (deluded though we may be) choose not to use PCs or Windows because we prefer something which is different.

      And let's not forget, you use a computer to do a job, you eat food to do a job (keep you alive). Linux or Apple may be a niche market, and might stay that way - but don't accuse Steve Jobs of FAILING, or of NOT UNDERSTANDING what he does, anymore than you criticise your favourite restaurant for not being a huge multi-national burger bar.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Total gibberish by Em Emalb (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:21PM
      • Re:Total gibberish (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Ars-Fartsica (166957) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:31PM (#2842957)
        The problem I see is that the majority of the people he seems to be going for are really a niche market.

        The real problem is that you won't concede that computing is developing niche markets. Something I would have though linux users would have been able to appreciate implicitly.

        The logic is quite simple - Jobs understood that Apple was going to get creamed competing head-to-head with MS. There is no doubt of that. So he moved Apple into a new market - stylish, highly integrated hardware and software that aim to extend the computing experience outside of the OS.

        As a result, Apple is making out just fine. Financially they are sound. They have great products and are creating an appealing product vision with their retail outlets (which admittedly are a loss leader).

        They've found a way to survive against MS. Whats the problem??

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Total gibberish by Sj0 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:50PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by Sj0 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:54PM
      • Re:Total gibberish by CrazyBusError (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @09:13AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Total gibberish by danyoung (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:24PM
    • Re:Total gibberish by DietFluffy (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
    • Re:Total gibberish (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rhekman (231312) <`hekman' `at' `acm.org'> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:43PM (#2843072) Homepage
      I don't think its a stretch to for Jobs to concede that MS won the operating system war...

      Really? It terms of market share yes, but technologically no. OS X is a big step forward, and a whole other component of the iMac's utility and cool. Plus Apple is still shipping millions of PC's a year -- with similar revenues as Gateway, but a far better balance sheet.

      I think Katz's gibberish about the "middle-class" is wrong is not because the tech industry has overlooked them, or is trying to be 31337 kewl. Katz is wrong to think that misguided tech notions of cool are what cause Harry and Martha Homeowner to be overlooked. The reason the middle class is a hard sell is because personal computers are still a nascent technology. The technology hasn't evolved to the point where it is totally acceptable or suited to everyone. Our culture hasn't evolved to place the proper niche for computers in the home. After twenty-five years of the PC, we still have a way to go. When the automobile was twenty-five, black utilitarian Model T's ruled the rutted dirt roadways. A quarter century since PC's first appeared, beige utilitarian Windows boxes clog our mostly narrow-band information superhighway.

      Mister Katz, I think you over estimate the tech sector's ability to provide palatable innovation for new technologies. That's an easy way out to explain so much failure when Microsoft is dominant in fulfilling network effected utilitarian need. I also think you under estimate Harry and Martha from Dubuque. They will make changes in their daily lives as they find ways that computing is personally useful to them. They will find new ways of exploiting the computer for themselves. It just takes time, and we've only just gotten started. Superior form factors, better devices, better interfaces, and better platforms will eventually restore diversity to the tech sector, just as it has for automobiles. Along the way, our culture and economy will change along with it.

      Regards,
      Reid

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Total gibberish by Glock27 (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:56PM
    • The Microsoft Computer.... by vtaluskie (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:02PM
    • You can't see the forest for the trees... by Chasing Amy (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:15PM
    • Re:Total gibberish by Fillup (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:28PM
    • Re:Total gibberish by aztec1430 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:57PM
    • Re:Total gibberish by cuteface (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @12:33AM
    • Re:Total gibberish by squaretorus (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @04:59AM
    • Re:Total gibberish by SilentChris (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:23PM
    • Re:Total gibberish (Missing the point) by Sicotic (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @05:57PM
    • Re:Total gibberish by gpinzone (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @10:12AM
    • 5 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • "ONLY 4.5%" (Score:5, Informative)

    by mattsouthworth (24953) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:06PM (#2842702) Homepage Journal
    I mean, really ... 'only 4.5%' is a lot of fucking computers. 'Only 4.5%' of the automobile (or whatever) industry can make a very successful company. Most developers would be successful beyond their wildest dreams if their software were on 4.5 of computers.
    • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" (Score:5, Interesting)

      by poiu (106484) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM (#2842857)
      Yup ... that's higher than BMW's and Mercedes-Benz's market share Combined! And, I could be wrong, but I don't think than anyone is calling either of those cars endangered or that their existence is threatened.

      Here is Apple's retail manifesto:

      Apple currently has around 5 percent market share in personal computers. This means that out of one hundred computer users, five of them use Macs. While that may not sound like a lot, it is actually higher than both BMW's and Mercedes-Benz's share of the automotive market. And it equals 25 million customers around the world using Macs.

      But that's not enough for us. We want to convince those other 95 people that Macintosh offers a much simpler, richer, and more human-central computing experience. And we believe that the best way to do this is to open Apple stores right in their neighborhoods. Stores that let people experience firsthand what it's like to make a movie right on a Mac. Or burn a CD with their favorite music. Or take pictures with a digital camera and publish them on their personal website. Or select from over 300 software titles, including some of the best educational titles for kids. Or talk to a Macintosh 'genius' at our Genius Bar. Or watch a demonstration of Mac OS X, our revolutionary operating system, on our theater's giant 10-foot diagonal screen.

      Because if only 5 of those remaining 95 people switch to Macs, we'll double our market share and, more importantly, earn the chance to delight another 25 million customers. Here we go ...

      Shop different.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by farmgeek (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:41PM
        • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by daviddennis (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:54PM
      • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by labratuk (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:13PM
        • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Midnight Thunder (17205) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:39PM (#2843586) Homepage Journal
          Don't forget Microsoft Office is available for the Mac, so although the experience is different the tools are available. On the analogy: I should also say that while BMW and Mercedes are driven like any other car, the experience is very much different and the spare parts are usually specific to those makes.
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by thoughtcrime (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:51PM
        • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Knobby (71829) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:59PM (#2843754)

          Try giving a Word Bird (who has only ever started up windows and double clicked on 'Microsoft Word 97') MacOS X. To her at least, the experience is completely bewildering.

          I'm a little lost.. To install Office I grab the folder off the CD and drag it to the Applications folder.. I know where I just dragged the folder, so I can find it when I need the app. It's not a mysterious thing to most people.. If I want a shortcut, I drag the app to the to dock and a shortcut is created.. I click the Word icon on the dock, or in the Applications folder and Word launches. It looks nicer similar to and contains most of the Windows version of Word..

          I know of 6 people who sat down in front of OS X for 5 minutes at the Apple Store or at a friends place and have decided to sell their Windows machines (many of which are under a year old) for new Macs and OS X. These are geeks and teachers mostly who have never used anything but Windows or Unix and immediately recognized how much friendlier OS X felt.. A number of the researchers here have purchased Macs for their desks. They code in project builder (which are generally run on Athalon boxes running Linux), write papers using TexShop (PDFLaTeX), touch up figures using Adobe Illustrator for OS X, read the interdepartmental memos using Word v.X, and maintain their grades in an Excel v.X spreadsheet... The point is that a lot of people are seeing Macs and saying "Wow! You mean I just drag and drop things where I want them and it works? Damn!! That's cool!" and that's what Apple is selling...

          [ Parent ]
        • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by gig (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:01PM
      • Of course... by OSgod (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:14PM
        • Re:Of course... by MaxVlast (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:05PM
          • Good point... by OSgod (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:19PM
        • coward by OSgod (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:29PM
          • Re:coward by OSgod (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:18PM
          • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by derinax (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:37PM
      • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by vukv (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:50PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by Mark Hood (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM
    • Computers != Cars by wintahmoot (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM
    • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:23PM
    • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by remande (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:21PM
    • Re:"ONLY 4.5%" by gig (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:35PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • money, money, money by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:07PM
  • Form has a place too. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Dutchmaan (442553) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:08PM (#2842715) Homepage
    You can't deny that there is a place for form in the market as well. I'll grant you that function is tops, but you can't just throw out form as many would have you believe. Form (aesthetics) is equally as valuable as function and the state of mind of the person using the product has actual effect on the end result.

    Make the user happy and make the machine functional and you'll never go wrong.
    • Re:Form has a place too. by WhtDaUWant (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:31PM
    • Form AND Function (Score:5, Insightful)

      by SteveM (11242) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:14PM (#2843363)

      Apple understands that form and function are not independent variables. For Apple form is a basis for function.

      Consider the new iMac. Here is a quote from yesterday's Ive interview reported on /., "The new shape emerged shortly afterwards: a dome is the only shape that lets the screen swivel without having "preferred" positions, maximises stability and offers lots of horizontal space. After that, it was the fine detail - of which there is a huge amount. "

      Thus we learn that the dome isn't there simply for asthetics, it is there for functional reasons.

      And that is how Apple views design. Not as a veneer to be layered on a finished device but as an integral part of said device.

      Steve M

      [ Parent ]
    • Frank Lloyd Wright... by way2slo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:00PM
    • Re:Form has a place too. by simpgeek (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:59PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Ease of Use (Score:4, Insightful)

    by goldid (310307) <matthewNO@SPAMgoldmaninternet.com> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:08PM (#2842716) Homepage
    Given that the Macintosh and is OS have been the most easy to use and reliable system in the PC world I think that JonKatz is a little off in claiming that Apple doesn't understand this. Jobs is trying to make some devices that technophiles who read sites like this one and people who can't understand the difference between the WWW and the Internet can both enjoy.

    Cool PC's and laptop draw additional users. But, it's not all about that at Apple. They're trying to put together the easiest to use and most powerful system that they can (at the same time). That's the hard part. The growth of Mac seems inevitable as it becomes as BSD box with the coolest hardware and the most capabilities.

    It is not understanding PC users that brings Gates to the top. It is the fact that he uses monopolistic powers and bully tactics to force people and competitors to use his sytems. Maybe Steve Jobs just isn't that mean.

    P.S. I'm not a Mac user... but, I may be one soon.
  • not "truly successful"?? (Score:3, Redundant)

    by sajiimori (535333) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:08PM (#2842720)
    The original iMac sold many millions of units. It was the direct hit that Apple had been waiting for, and Jobs delivered. It's style has influenced countless PC designs. And, perhaps most significantly, it's success was all despite the overwhelming popularity of incompatible PC hardware and software.

    It would be unrealistic for Apple to aim for domination in the desktop market. But they've found a hell of a niche that nobody else seems able to fill with such grace.
    • Hell Yes by nanojath (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:45PM
      • Re:Hell Yes by Sentry21 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:06PM
        • Re:Hell Yes by nanojath (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @12:30PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by anonymous_wombat (532191) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:09PM (#2842724)
    So, the reason that Windows won out is because it is reliable and easy to use. Thanks for the enlightenment.
  • Ease of use (Score:3, Insightful)

    by at_18 (224304) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:11PM (#2842739) Journal
    Katz mentions several times "ease of use and reliability" as a selling point for Bill Gates, as opposet to the "just cool" model for Macs.

    I wonder, how can anyone think that windows is "easy to use" compared to MacOS? Or "more reliable"???? At least for the 3.11/95/98 series, which is what we are talking about.
    The only thing I can see is the power of a good marketing deparment...
    • Re:Ease of use by djocyko (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:23PM
      • Re:Ease of use by AtaruMoroboshi (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:30PM
        • Re:Ease of use (Score:4, Informative)

          by Melantha_Bacchae (232402) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:27PM (#2843464)
          AtaruMoroboshi wrote:

          > I agree that keyboarding is one area where windows is in fact better.
          > Hopefully Apple will integrate this into os 10.2...

          Just because you don't know about them, doesn't mean that they aren't there. The "Mac OS 9 Bible" lists three pages of keyboard shortcuts (pages 92-94) for the Finder alone. Looking in the Apple Help for 10.1.2 (searching for "keyboard shortcuts") reveals lots of entries on keyboard shortcuts. If anything, the Mac has as many keyboard shortcuts or more than Windows!

          Some of my favorites:

          Cmd-z Undo
          Cmd-x Cut
          Cmd-c Copy
          Cmd-v Paste
          Cmd-a Select All
          Cmd-f Find
          Cmd-g Find Again
          Cmd-s Save
          Cmd-o Open
          Cmd-w Close window
          Cmd-q Quit application

          In Finder Only:
          Cmd-e Eject drive whose icon is highlighted (have a catcher's mit handy, some Zip drives take this too literally ;)

          Apple also took Scotty to heart. Both OS 9 and OS X (at least X.1.*) have voice shortcuts known as "Speakable Items". See the Speech icon in the System Preferences in OS X, or the control panel in OS 9, for further details. And yes, you can make your own "Speakable Items" with Apple Script. ;)

          Windows: "Go talk to my friend, an 800 pound monopoly-abusing gorilla!"
          Mac: "And here's my good buddy, the 66,000 ton Godzilla!"
          Godzilla: Stomp! ;)
          [ Parent ]
          • Re:Ease of use by sensate_mass (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:02PM
          • Re:Ease of use by AtaruMoroboshi (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:24PM
          • Re:Ease of use by rfsayre (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:28PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • 'Full Keyboard Access' is already here... by ijx (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:14PM
      • Re:Ease of use by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:40PM
      • Re:Ease of use by nanospook (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:49PM
    • Re:Ease of use by esnible (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:58PM
      • Re:Ease of use by ijx (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:28PM
        • Re:Ease of use by Korgan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:37PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Ease of use by sean23007 (Score:3) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:30PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • hmmm... by i7dude (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:12PM
    • Re:hmmm... by mofolotopo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:09PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Consumer Tastes Bland? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ksr (207427) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:12PM (#2842753)
    When it comes to technology, it's middle-class consumers and their tastes, needs and expectations that determine success or failure.


    Surely there is a feedback loop between users' tastes and the paradigms presented by technology companies. I find it hard to believe that the "beige minitower" form factor somehow taps into the a priori sense of what's best. It's simply what's been successful from a market penetration standpoint. I'd hate to imagine a computer industry without Jobs and Apple pushing out the edge of the envelope.
  • Profitability (Score:4, Redundant)

    Katz is right, Apple is a complete failure! If they had the right idea, they'd be profitable! Oh, wait, you mean they are profitable? And in fact just posted profits for a year in which the tech sector was in a serious slump? And the value of their stock has increased tremendously over the last five years. Yup, Apple is a complete failure, Katz is right on the money. I'm definitely turning to him for investment advice!
  • And when Utility is a commodity? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by akookieone (530708) <andrew@beginsCOW ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:13PM (#2842763) Homepage
    Seems like the argument here starts as utility trumps "coolness", and then that "coolness" is no good when it is not what people want to do (a cool new way to poke yourself in the eye.)
    But I do think PCs are reaching a commodity level for the thinks most people do, and if trust of computer makers is an issue, it cuts everyone, there is no uniqueness to Apple focusing on design.
    So I think, as PCs are more of a commodity, the design is going to be a key differentiator, just as the Cola wars are not about nutrition (potable utility) but about taste and preference - so maybe Apple is a bit ahead of the commodifying of PCs, but better design is definitely going to be an increasing part of how consumers make decisions. (They all surf the web, and they all crash, so I'll take the pretty one.) This is a good way to try and fight off the fact that M$ is the conventional wisdom (They all surf the web, they all crash, so I'll get what everyone else did...)
  • wake up and smell the price tag by Dethboy (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM
  • Moronic... (Score:4, Redundant)

    by Refrag (145266) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM (#2842770)
    Katz, you need to realize that total-world-domination isn't the only measure of success. Apple is a successful company -- it has, what, $5 billion in cash. The old iMac is a successful computer -- it has sold more than $6 million units in its time. Steve Jobs is a successful man -- he runs two very cool companies (Apple and Pixar), and probably has a better quality-of-life/lifestyle than Billg (Jobs' jet is better).
  • Apple's Position (Score:4, Insightful)

    by under_score (65824) <mishkin-slashdot ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM (#2842771) Homepage
    Jobs seems to be aware of this issue at some level. His comments about the market share of BMW's as compared to Apple computers is actually quite revealing. Jobs is not just content with that market share, but actually actively working towards innovation and therefore expects to have a smaller market share. That's the positioning that Apple has taken. And unfortunately right now, I am just not in the market segment that buys BMW's or for that matter Apple's computers. I would love to be, but so be it. Katz seems to spin this all as a criticism of Jobs and Apple, but in fact Apple is financially just as successful as Microsoft or AOL, just on a smaller scale. Their huge cash reserves are proof of that. Watch out when they find the project on which to spend those reserves!!!
  • Defining the Big Win (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wiredog (43288) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM (#2842772) Journal
    See Cringely's [pbs.org] piece on how Jobs defines 'winning'. It's not how Katz defines it.
  • I like it by Judas666 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM
    • Re:I like it by WhtDaUWant (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:45PM
  • I believe this misses the point ... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jieves (21184) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:14PM (#2842774)
    I'm sure a lot of people will go into detail, but I think Katz is wrong because:

    * He focuses on marketshare, not profitability. Apple has been profitable for the past several years (with the exception of this one) and even when they were bleeding red ink they never has less than $2 billion in the bank. As long as Apple remains profitable, they remain successful. And they're on track to be profitable in 2002.

    * Yes, mediocrity (good-enough) generally wins out in the marketplace, but there is always room for a deluxe, well-made product. Apple's analogy about BMW is relevant here. Furthermore, there are a lot of companies (Compaq, Gateway) that have followed roughly the same path as Microsoft and AOL and are fighting for survival. Business likes boring, but business is not the be-all and end-all of the market, and boring will not guarantee you life.

    * Most importanly, Apple's emphasis is not on what is coolest, but on what is easiest for the consumer. That's the point of the Digital hub strategy. That's the point of the original iMac with no floppy drive and only USB connectors. That's the point of iPhoto, iTunes, i* etc.

    * And, a little off-topic (but a general misconception) ... I think a lot of the reason that people don't buy Macs is not because they're harder to use (they aren't) or more expensive (a little) or alien (any more than the computer they use at work is). It's because they can't pirate Apple software from their friends. They can't just drop by Bob from accounting and get the latest version of MS-Office to take home and install (Of course, that's becoming harder too with Microsoft's current registration schemes).

    I don't dislike Katz, but I do think he often has some very basic perception problems. Either that or he's just taking a positon to spark discussion.

    --Jieves
  • Keep It Simple, Stupid by Mr. Fusion (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:15PM
  • Porsches, BMWs and Lexuses oh my (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Synn (6288) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:15PM (#2842788)
    Function isn't everything. Swatches didn't dominate the wrist watch market in the 80's because they were so functional, it was the style.

    My dodge Neon gets me to work just fine, but that doesn't mean I don't want a Porsche.
    Jobs knows what he's doing, he's creating a brand not just a computer. Function is important, but don't think for a second that image doesn't count.
  • by Daniel Dvorkin (106857) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:15PM (#2842790) Homepage Journal
    ... is what I remember some columnist (John Dvorak, maybe?) calling the original iMac. He used basically the same arguments we've seen here: cool premium computers aren't what sells, cheap beige boxes with aggressive marketing is what sells, and Apple Just Doesn't Get It.

    But the fact is that the original iMac was the single most successful personal computer model in history, and it pretty much saved Apple. I'd say that this is proof that Apple Does Get It, in a way that most columnists apparently don't. Look, Apple will never take over the world, and we Macheads know that. That's okay. What matters is that Apple keeps making the world's best computers, and enough people (4.5% is a small slice of a really enormous pie, and that's okay too) keep buying them so they stay in business.

    Oh yeah ... take a look at Apple's financials vs. those of Dell, Compaq, HP, or IBM's PC division. Not only do they Get It regarding design and marketing, apparently they Get It regarding the bottom line too, because they're making money hand over fist at a time when almost all other personal computer makers are struggling.
  • AOL commercials by Kupek (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:16PM
  • What Gates knows... by SJS (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:16PM
  • When cars can fly by blamanj (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:16PM
  • New Macs aren't just "cool" by Dephex Twin (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:17PM
  • What Jobs understands... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by natpoor (142801) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:17PM (#2842810) Homepage
    Jobs understand what Katz doesn't, unless Katz is just trying to rile up some responses. Apple cannot compete with Dell, IBM, Gateway, Compaq, etc., in making beige boxes. It's a brutal market, and one that Apple isn't in - Apple does a mainstream OS and boxes. IBM couldn't do it with OS/2, but Apple is still chugging along.

    What peeves me is that whenever one of the PC makers releases a new piece of hardware, it's all about the specs. When Apple releases something, it's held to a much higher standard. Apple brought the GUI, the floppy, easy networking, design, USB, etc., to the mass market, and now has brought Unix to the masses as well (and it's partially open sourced).

    Katz, if you want to feed the monopoly that keeps you down, fine.
  • by abde (136025) <<moc.oohay> <ta> <golb-awanoopa>> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:17PM (#2842812) Homepage

    who cares about market share. The real question is, how do Apple's profit earnings compare to Microsoft and to Dell (need to compare both since Apple does OS and the box).

    Also a good question to ask is, how does Apple's growth (in terms of profit percentage) compare to Dell and Microsoft?

    If Apple has better growth/profit than Dell/Microsoft (D/M$), then 4.5% means good news - there's still 95.5% of the market that can potentially be consumed.

    If Apple makes the same profit (in terms of bottom-line $$$) as Dell, but does it in only 4.5% market share as opposed to Dell's insanely huge 35% or whatever, then which is the stronger company?

    Note, I havent looked up the numbers. I'm just suggesting that these are more interesting demographic/statistic metrics than merely repeating market share market share like a mantra. Market share isnt everything.
  • What turned me from Apple... by weave (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
  • Gates arrived at the right time...... by Nick's Name (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
  • How is apple better? by alen (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
  • WTF are you talking aobut? by Havokmon (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
  • Cable TV by baby_head_rush (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
  • If Apple used Katz's model... by Millard Fillmore (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:19PM
  • by Outlyer (1767) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:20PM (#2842836) Homepage
    Sorry Jon, I typically don't jump on the Katz-bashing, but today, I'm dumbfounded by this article.

    1. How much market share does BMW have? Do you think that they have 4.5% of the world's market? I doubt it. Does it matter? Would I buy a BMW instead of a Ford? Definitely.

    2. Steve Jobs knows exactly what he's doing. Do you think trying to trump Microsoft on making a commodity OS is the way to go? No, that job is already taken.

    3. Take this example. I decide to open a store in a mall. There is a Walmart there already. Do I:
    a) Build a gigantic department store and try to compete with Walmart?
    b) Do I build a speciality store wherein I can attract a strong, loyal niche market, and make my money rather than getting crushed

    I think Steve gets it fine. So do I, so do a good chunk of the posters thus far. But apparently, you don't get it.
  • Katz is right by farmgeek (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:21PM
  • And yet Apple thrives by Deagol (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:21PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Product lifespans (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MrAndrews (456547) <mcm.is.now@gmail. c o m> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:21PM (#2842849) Homepage
    Ever since the new iMac came out, a good comparison to cars has been surfacing more and more: mainly that iMacs are like BMWs (slick, cool and over-priced); while PCs are like Honda Civics (cheap, affordable, but if you sit in them the wrong way it can break your tailbone). And I wonder, given the premise that people feel their computers are obsolete in 18 months, if perhaps the new iMac is planning ahead in a smart way.

    The big uses for computers for the average folk these days would be email, web browsing, word processing. For that, you can live on less than a gigahertz of speed. Things aren't going to improve that much with a top-of-the-line Athlon as compared to a discontinued PII. So if you don't need the extra speed, what differentiates the computers? RAM, HD, video card... style maybe.

    What differentiates cars? Why don't car manufacturers spend gobs of cash throwing the newest "maximum speed notched up by 10 mph!" engines for their vehicles? Why do they, instead, focus on styling, CD players, automatic this-and-thats? Probably because you could make a car that can go 500 mph in the shape of a Civic, but honestly no one would need the extra speed (mainly because of traffic laws, but you know...)

    So maybe the iMac's push for style (and very good specs, given its intended audience) is just Apple moving into the next arena of computers as stuff-of-life: the basic concept stays the same, but it's what you add in details that matters.

    In that way, Apple is definitely ahead of the game.

  • Maybe I'm trolling... by SuperMacNinja (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:21PM
  • What is this? by turbine216 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM
  • by Infonaut (96956) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM (#2842860) Homepage Journal
    but that doesn't mean he wants to sell commodity products. Because BMW doesn't target 7-Eleven employees doesn't mean that their executives aren't aware of American automobile buying habits. It means that they've chosen to target a different audience.

    Apple, like any large corporation, has a culture of its own. The culture at Apple favors certain things. It places a value on aesthetics and on how people interact with their computers. It places a value on taking risks in order to push new technologies (some of which Apple invented, like Firewire [apple.com] and others, like USB [usb.org] that it didn't). It places a higher value on originality and elegance than on following established norms.

    A company with such a culture will never rule the world. It will never defeat Microsoft in the marketplace. It will never unseat Dell. But it doesn't have to. In order to grow and prosper, Apple just has to keep its customer base happy. Its customer base is not Ma and Pa Gateway.

    For better or for worse, the people who like Apple products tend to actually enjoy using their computers. They don't usually care about whether they can play any one of 10,000 available PC games. They simply want a computer that allows them to accomplish things and to have fun while doing those things.

    As long as Apple can keep providing products that innovate in favor of the user, they'll do just fine, and the rest of the industry will continue to use them as an R & D lab.

  • Easy to Use? by moongha (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:22PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Holes, Holes, Holes by Murdock037 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:23PM
  • urge...to...resist....flamebait...failing... by sageFool (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:23PM
  • More need to emulate cool and easy to use... by mcwop (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:24PM
  • Time is on my side (Yes it is) by sulli (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:25PM
  • I stopped reading at the "AOL" Part (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ieshan (409693) <[ieshan] [at] [gmail.com]> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:26PM (#2842902) Homepage Journal
    You will never seen a Microsoft or AOL exec talking about how cool the their companies or products are, only how useful and easy to use. They don't really care how much heavy breathing they generate in the media or among excitable teenagers and college students.

    When's the last time Mr. Katz watched TV and saw an AOL commercial? The blinking lights, teenagers shouting, "Wow, Cool, Instant Messenging!" and other things like that.

    Sorry, Katz, the shift is definately towards the younger, hip audience, especially for AOL. Microsoft? Maybe not, but there's still focus on the gaming industry there as well. Not sure what the point of this rant was.
  • What...is...the...point? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mystery_bowler (472698) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:26PM (#2842907) Homepage
    I'm trying really hard not to fall into that group of /. readers that either ignore or dislike Katz's every single post. But this article...oh my.

    First of all, what is the point? What are we, the readers, supposed to take away from this article? For most of my life, I've felt like I have above average reading comprehension skills, but I'm having trouble figuring out the point here. Let's see...I've read it twice now...nope, no point. Lots of words with no meaning. Not a single enlightening bit of information discerned. Why? Because the article contradicts itself.

    Apple (and Jobs, by proxy I suppose) brought the consumers the gift of accessible computers, but Jobs doesn't understand what keeps the technology industry moving.

    Katz, what are you saying? Jobs in an idiot or he's a genius? Are you saying anything at all? Is there an opinion here, or just someone's retelling of things that could possibly be construed as something resembling facts? "His idea to fuse the desktop with pop culture is, in fact, a powerful one. But it's too soon." "If you're a teenager, Web designer, film editor or visual arts major, or even a loving Grandma, it's great that the iMac allows you to create your own DVDs, organize and edit digital pictures, play CDs or convert MP3's, turn home videotapes into high-quality edited films."

    But for all the wasted verbage, the article finally wraps it up at the end: What's cool isn't necessarily what sells. God damn, Katz. You're a genius.
  • Arg! I'm Blind! by tiltowait (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:26PM
  • What is your point? by raumdass (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:26PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • It's about time someone had the courage... by rtphokie (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:27PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Only the middle class? by sluggie (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:27PM
  • Speaking of "Total Gibberish..." by tsmit (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
  • iPod by sulli (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
  • by baby_head_rush (131448) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM (#2842920) Homepage Journal
    Why else would they try and get R.E.M. to let them use "It's The End Of The World As We Know It" (and get turned down), Rolling Stones "Start Me Up", and Madonna (whatever song that is)?

    "Dude you're getting a Dell."

    The PC is advertised as cool, but Mac at least makes an attempt to make them that way.
  • rampant success by oscarcvt (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
  • I disagree by Krusher55 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
  • Apples and oranges by Steve Cowan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM
  • An updated Jobs formula that drove the orig. Mac. by 5n3ak3rp1mp (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:29PM
  • Katz being Katz by josquin9 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:29PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Who needs cool design? by Jezz (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:30PM
  • by gmhowell (26755) <gmhowell@gmail.com> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:31PM (#2842960) Homepage Journal
    'Coolness' is not and was not the perennial Apple motto. Not even under Steve Jobs. Witness the Apple I through the III. All were utilitarian machines. The first were geek hardware without the geek price. And having a wooden case was not 'cool'; it was being cheap.

    1984, enter the Mac. What was the motto? Anyone? Yes, it was "The Computer for the Rest of Us". The machine for everyman. Its aim was usability and simplicity. And it was. For a long time, the 128k Mac typified computing for the average slob. Not until 11 years later did M$ come close to this.

    Steve Jobs did not find the mantra of coolness until returned from the wasteland of NeXT. The idea that a Mac was cool did not develop until the iMac. And it is what has succeeded.

    I think that Jobs has matured, rather than devolved. He realizes that people won't buy insanely great things. Not en masse. But as long as 4-8% of people do, the company will be okay.

    In 1993, people didn't buy usability. They don't in 2002. What people buy is familiarity and cheapness. And at that, M$ wins.
  • 4.5% why bother... by mysticbob (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:34PM
  • um.....so? by smagoun (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:34PM
  • Success is in the eye of the beholder by Whip-hero (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:34PM
  • But. . . . I like elitism! by Com2Kid (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:34PM
  • by dstone (191334) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:35PM (#2843000) Homepage
    Nobody would ever label them cool, just stunningly successful.
    ...
    The truly successful technologies and technology companies are utilitarian and dull -- decidedly non-hip.


    Consider the following classes of people:
    - artist
    - craftsman
    - engineer
    - businessman

    I believe they all have different "success" criteria when it comes to their "products/services/career". Don't assume the financial or market-share bottom line is the universal criteria. It probably is for the last category, but even then, that's a stereotype that not all businessmen care to follow.

    And don't laugh now... even corporate entities don't need profitability or market share as their success criteria. Consider non-profits.

    Thank god the world has people who consider hip and well-designed products to be successful even when they don't take over the world.
  • Remind me... by nemsis_ebs (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:36PM
  • Innovation (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kriegsman (55737) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:36PM (#2843005) Homepage
    In many ways, users today do want computers that work the way TVs work today, but TVs have come a long way, too!

    Today's TV users get all kinds of great features, including color images, CRTs that warm up in seconds instead of minutes, "big" screens, cable-delivered signals with great "reception" on hundreds of channels, stereo sound (or better), the ability to rent and watch movies (*ahem*), the ability to instantly watch whatever's on pay-per-view. Even just from a UI point of view, we now get (and expect!) wireless remote controls for everything, on-screen displays, and finally no more need to twist the channel selector knob violently to get past that annoying block of UHF stations that your antenna can't pull in!

    I'm not going to make a list of all the "innovations" that have come from Apple, but I'll mention my favorite. Before the PowerBooks came out, portable PCs all had their keyboard at the front edge of the 'bottom' part of the case. The PowerBooks moved the keyboard to the back, creating a wrist rest area, much better in-flight ergonomics, and a better place to locate the pointing device (trackball in this case).

    Was it revolutionary? No. Did Steve Jobs stand up and call it the coolest thing ever? No. But innovation comes in all kinds of sizes and shapes. Someone will always be innovating, and it's a good thing. Besides, if no one innovates, we'll be stuck forever with what we have now - eewww.

    -Mark
  • Jobs does get it, Katz doesn't. Your dad needs to. by Thr34d (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:37PM
  • How ironic by KurdtX (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:38PM
  • Design vs. Function by Brit Aviator (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:38PM
  • Apple's influence by rixkix (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:39PM
  • The Future by Liquid(TJ) (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:40PM
  • Business made Microsoft, not John Q. Public by invid (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:40PM
  • Elitism? by Sebastopol (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:41PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Market Share is Irrelevant by Courageous (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:41PM
  • I'm seeing something new... by jlower (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:41PM
  • 2 contradictions by jaysones (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:42PM
  • The cost factor. by clarkie.mg (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:42PM
  • Brittany Spears and Market Share by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:43PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Inexpensive and Reliable? by monopole (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:44PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • I don't understand... by megaduck (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:45PM
  • Good news! by Jerf (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:45PM
  • iMac - the home computer revisited by bubbha (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:46PM
  • Macs are cool until somebody invents a crystal bal by Steve Cowan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:47PM
  • It occurs to me... by geekoid (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:47PM
  • Hook 'em while they're young by mattblanchard (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:47PM
  • think different by nikko (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:47PM
  • The Main Problem (Score:3, Insightful)

    by iGawyn (164113) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:48PM (#2843115) Homepage Journal
    The main problem is that people on both sides of the line, PC (x86) and Mac (68k/PPC) users have biases towards the other. PC users go "The Macs had crappy tech support for years, people are afraid because of that" and the Mac users go "You have to mess around with a ton of cables, cracking open the case, playing with cards, just to make it run."

    Now, I own 3 computers. An iMac (333), an AMD 1.2GHz Athlon, and an AMD 700 Duron, respectively running OS 9.1, Win2000, and OpenBSD. I try not to be too biased, however, every operating system has it's bugs, that's a part of life.

    To get my computers working, no, I didn't have to crack the cases, play around with PCI/AGP cards, until I decided that I wanted to completely overhaul my system, replacing motherboard/processor/video card. I've upgraded every one of my systems, and even from the hardware standpoint, they each have their drawbacks.

    The iMac's case is a pain in the ass to work in. I've upgraded it to 192MB of RAM and a 30GB HD. It's nearly impossible to do so, and I've probably voided the warranty in the process, although it's too old to still have a valid one. It works great. As my router.

    The 1.2GHz machine's case is a nice, new Enlight case. It's a breeze to work in, and about the only drawback is that it's so big and open, I often wonder where I want to put things, and how many more fans I can put in there. It's great, as my gaming PC.

    The 700MHz machine is part of an old barebones system I got from a seedy vender at a computer show. It's got a crappy case, although you have some room, there isn't too much. I use it for running all sorts of random n*x experiments on it.

    Now, as far as your average home user, what would I recommend? Well, it depends. If you want a cheap, relatively easy to use, vaguely stable system, sure, buy a cheap PC. You can get a PC, and everything you need to go online, check your e-mail, surf the web a bit, write the occasional document and print it. If you want some more stability, but don't mind jacking the price up, then sure, get a mac.

    However, most of us here on slashdot are also part of a "niche market." We're the overclockers, power-users, computer geeks who love tweaking the systems in any way possible. What I would buy for myself, I'll most likely never recommend for my mother to use.

    As far as ease-of-use, well, it's a learned habit. If you start out on Windows, sure, it'll take some work to get to use Macs. The reverse is also true. Personally, I don't like the look of the new iMac. Just by seeing it on the computer, I can tell that if I had one, and I wanted to pop the case, upgrade the harddrive or ram, it'd be a pain in the ass. You're always fighting a trade off. Ease/ability to upgrade vs. size. I don't care about size. I like being able to tweak things.

    What's right for you? Whichever one you're happiest with. Platform wars are just a waste of time, regardless of public opinion, market share, or anything else under the sun.

    Gawyn
  • Good one by Enzo90910 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:48PM
  • Cool / Uncool? Don't think that's the point .... by netchhe (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:48PM
  • Look to the Livingroom by Matey-O (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:51PM
  • this is belittling to all of us- by ilikeike (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:51PM
  • by sammy baby (14909) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:52PM (#2843141) Journal
    ...between Gates and Jobs, I refer you to Robert Cringely's terrific article released upon the creation of the new iMac: "The Best Revenge: Why the New iMacs Will Be Successful No Matter What They Look Like." [pbs.org] While largely non-technical, it's much more interesting a read than Katz's post, which seems to go pretty wide of the mark, in my view.

    Sorry I don't remember where I caught the original link. Could have even been here on /. .
  • Wouldn't it be nice if.. by Toraz Chryx (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:52PM
  • Market Share by SoftwareJuggler (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:55PM
  • Apple is a Niche Company by Arkhan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:55PM
  • Request For Comment-- article moderation by nikko (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:55PM
  • Partially missing the point by Metropolitan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:56PM
  • Early Adopters by Manpage (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:57PM
  • Katz hit on something - trust. by mr (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:58PM
  • Huh! by kevinsan (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:58PM
  • Flawed Argument by 90XDoubleSide (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:58PM
  • Microsoft definitely aspire to coolness by jilbert (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:00PM
  • Outdatted. by rhetland (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:01PM
  • He knows exactly what he's doing. by mryken (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:01PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • KATZ HAS IT BACKWARDS by peripatetic_bum (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:02PM
  • This is getting tedious. by jpellino (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:02PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • This must have been an allergic reaction by freerangegeek (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:06PM
  • Silly rabbit, choice is for kids! by madopal (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:06PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Article moderation by Graff (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:07PM
  • John Katz as an institution by C4v3_7r0ll (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:07PM
  • Apple of my eye by qolinar (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:07PM
  • sigh by jamesoutlaw (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:11PM
  • How true... by dgulbran (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:12PM
  • Duh by marktwain (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:15PM
  • Katz by underpaidISPtech (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:19PM
  • Coolness happens. by NonSoftAntiCurve (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:20PM
  • Right, Katz... by Ryan Amos (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:21PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • tech elitism and the "foolish idea" by feldsteins (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:23PM
  • Apple has $4billion in cash in the bank. by AugstWest (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:29PM
  • What Are You Dribbling About? by White Roses (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:29PM
  • katz you will never be cool by handsup (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:30PM
  • College students not relevant? by Soulfader (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:30PM
  • Zen and the Art of Macintosh Maintenance by stew1 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:34PM
  • Mod down front page parent story -1: Troll by wackybrit (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:35PM
  • Fire and Motion by PHAEDRU5 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:35PM
  • I'll challenge this by rho (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:35PM
  • Mark Twain by DeadBugs (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:36PM
    • Re:Mark Twain by daeley (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:29PM
    • Re:Mark Twain by fishboy (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:35AM
  • different market segments by markj02 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:36PM
  • History of the Automobile Model Year by gcondon (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:37PM
  • Wrong, wrong, wrong. by overunderunderdone (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:37PM
  • In summary (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Stickerboy (61554) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:38PM (#2843573) Homepage
    You can divide the computing world into segments, which are analogous to other market segments.
    • Dell/Microsoft computers = Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys = Chili's restaurant

      Standardized up the wazoo, gives pretty good service, aimed squarely at middle-class consumers that want value and reliability at not too high of a price.

    • Emachine/Microsoft computers = Geo Metros = McDonald's

      Extremely standardized (to the lowest level), very cheap... aimed at consumers who want/need the product (be it food, cars, computers) at the least cost. Products aren't as reliable and may produce breakdowns as a side effect (gastric or mechanical). Product as a commodity.

    • Compaq/Microsoft computers = rental cars = products from Sysco (a food supplier for most restaurants)

      Not bad products, aimed at their target segments (companies that need lots of them) mostly for price and cost of ownership (although in Compaq's case, that's debatable).

    • Apple computers = new VW beetle, Ford Thunderbird = Bellini's Italian restaurant

      Aimed at upscale, upper-middle and upper class image-conscious consumers who usually don't know too much about the product they're buying. Product hallmarks are that it looks cool, nobody will look down on you for buying their products (except the next segment), they're usually overpriced, it looks cool, and they have good reliability, service, and ease of use. Did I mention it looks cool? Underneath the appearance, they have pretty standard, very good quality components.

    • Do-it-yourself/*nix computer = custom-job Corvettes and Mustangs = people who cook their own food, and are excellent at it too (Mom!)

      Products that are usually upgraded from stock products by people with a high knowledge of what they're doing with it. In Mom's case, she goes to the grocery store and cooks some damn fine pasta from ingredients she gets there. Sometimes she orders ingredients from specialized stores. In the computer geek's case, they take a stock computer (or build one themselves) and replace and upgrade the parts they choose. And we all have a car geek friend who can tell the 20 different modifications to a '69 Mustang just by listening when someone revs it up. (Sometimes we are that person.)

    And how can you summarize another long-winded Katz article and lots and lots of posts?

    To each company their own market segment. Business 101.

  • your version of middle class is wrong by dumbArtMajor (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:38PM
  • Apple by underpaidISPtech (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:41PM
  • You're absolutely right Jon... by wazzzup (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:41PM
  • Donald Norman Begs to Differ ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SteveM (11242) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:44PM (#2843628)

    In a brief piece on the BBC web site [bbc.co.uk], Donald Norman offers this opinion of Apple and the new iMac:

    Apple is the best company in the world to make this because Apple understands consumers, understands design and understands computers.

    Steve M

  • LCD iMac: Apple's beige box equivalent? by D_Fresh (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:44PM
  • Apples weren't an antidote. by skirch (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:45PM
  • Microsoft's success by OwnedByTwoCats (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:46PM
  • to summarise... by underpaidISPtech (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:48PM
  • Katz blew it this time by whjwhj (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:48PM
  • "wants easy of use, safety, utility" by ruzel (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:50PM
  • Katz is a moron (Score:3, Interesting)

    by yunfat (200898) <{taran} {at} {mac.com}> on Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:50PM (#2843676)
    "Burned by years of outrageously poor tech support, increasingly expensive software, and hardware that's almost instantly outdated..."

    1) Apple has the best tech support of any company out there. I recently had a problem with my 3 year old 21" Apple Studio Display (still under Apple extended warranty)... it was sent to Apple overnight ($500 on their dime) and was back with me in less than a week (this is a 100lb monitor mind you).

    2) iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD... all free, all best in class. Nuff said.

    3) And if their hardware is almost instantly outdated, how come my 3 year old g4 500 runs Return to Castle Wolfenstein 1024*768 at more than acceptable framerates using normal settings? No small feat by my estimation.

  • Katz, you're an idiot (Score:4, Insightful)

    First of all:
    The truly successful technologies and technology companies are utilitarian and dull -- decidedly non-hip. You will never seen a Microsoft or AOL exec talking about how cool the their companies or products are, only how useful and easy to use.

    "You will never seen?" - what the hell are you talking about? That's bad grammar, not to mention the rest of the sentence is false. You're saying MS products are easy to use? Well, I admit, they've gotten better, but they're still playing catch up in that department.

    The following is just complete nonsense, and if I can organize all of the rants floating in my head I'll show you why:
    Gates understands something Jobs and media don't. When it comes to technology, it's middle-class consumers and their tastes, needs and expectations that determine success or failure.

    First and foremost, Apple and Microsoft are two completely different companies. Apple sells computers, Microsoft doesn't. Microsoft sells services, for the most part Apple doesn't. Comparing these two companies is really absurd. In the same way, it's not fair to compare Apple to a company like Gateway, as Apple makes an OS, MP3 player, etc. The point is: MacOS is dominated by Windows, but no Mac users give a rat's ass.
    Next, you show your true ignorance with your statement that "middle class consumers" drive the market. Are you really that stupid? Everyone knows that it's businesses that drive the PC world for a myriad of reasons. Yes, every day there are more and more personal goodies for computers, and individuals are buying more of them, but that still does not compare to the amount of money generated by businesses. Every company that uses microsoft software is forced to have a license for every single workstation, unlike the home user who just borrows a friend's. When these businesses upgrade to XP, Microsoft is going to rake in a huge amount of profit. That is what drives their "innovation," not the whims of individual PC users. This is one major reason Mac users are so loyal. Macs give you the feeling that every single part of the computer was designed so that it would be extremely convenient for you to use, that's something that customers really appreciate. Sure, maybe everyone uses Windows, but there's still about 5% of people who use Macintosh, and that's a very happy and pleased 5%.
  • Actually, Jon by The Bungi (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:52PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • no ease of use without "cool" by schvenk (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:53PM
  • If I could moderate this Katz article by maniac11 (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:59PM
  • definitelly disagree by poil11 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:00PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Does he actually listen/read to MS and AOL? by Aexia (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:02PM
  • Reply to Katz's Monopoly-based Conclusion by Shuh (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:03PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Apple's Role in the Industry by MBCook (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:04PM
  • Good Lord.. Katz Haters vs. Apple Haters? by namespan (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:13PM
  • Apple Hardware Reliabilty by bmasel (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:16PM
  • Apple by DanV (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:21PM
  • Consumer Electronics by micromuncher (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:22PM
  • as an G4 owner I wonder.... by rxchurch (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:23PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Katz is old: Think Next Generation by cmoney (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:29PM
  • Flawed premise by crumbz (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:30PM
  • Ballmer monkey boy anyone? (Score:3, Funny)

    by CaptainSuperBoy (17170) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:35PM (#2843994) Homepage Journal
    You will never seen a Microsoft or AOL exec talking about how cool the their companies or products are

    I guess JonKatz hasn't seen this [ntk.net] yet. That just goes to prove that you can be a billionaire Microsoft exec, and still be absolutely insane. Only Ballmer could yell "DEVELOPERS!" over and over again, and still be taken seriously (kind of).
  • High school definition of success by Faramir (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:38PM
  • Katz is a troll /ignore Katz by freq (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:38PM
  • Katz by Minter92 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:39PM
  • Microsoft Hardware by DamienMcKenna (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:45PM
  • What? College students DO establish the mainstream by NickV (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:51PM
  • Katz and the lowest common denominator by nedron (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:04PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Computers are Commodity Items by Geckoman (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:15PM
  • The MS/X86 pattern is OBVIOUS by devolve67 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:24PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Clueless by corporatemutantninja (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:24PM
    • Re:Clueless by Chazbot 2002 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:09PM
      • Re:Clueless by Migx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:48PM
  • Don't respond to trolls by alernon (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:32PM
  • Pointless that. by adelayde (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:36PM
  • Computers are a commodity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Logic Bomb (122875) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:38PM (#2844459)

    I heartily agree with all the highly-moderated posts that take Katz to task for being an idiot. Those are VERY good points. But people are perhaps missing the boat a little about market share with computers versus automobiles. ALL CARS ARE COMPATIBLE. They can all use basically the same gas, drive on the same roads, obey the same traffic signals. If you know how to drive one of them, you can pretty much drive them all. The switch between Windows and Macintosh is much more wrenching than between a manual and automatic transmission.

    My point is that market share does mean a lot more in the computer world, when it comes to operating systems, than BMW's market share does in the car world. Apple vs Dell is irrelevant, but Apple vs Windows is a meaningful statistic. This certainly doesn't mean Apple can't survive, or even thrive, as a "niche player" (I hate that term, since Apple's influence is huge). But don't just blow off such comparisons, because they do say something about the near future of the computing world.

  • This Sounds Like it Came From Adequacy! by Cheshire Cat (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:39PM
  • Why Apple is not all-powerful by MtViewGuy (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:41PM
  • Does Jon Katz even read Slashdot? by filbo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:42PM
  • my advice by jchristopher (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:58PM
    • Re:my advice by InstantCool (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:58PM
  • elites? by Ogerman (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:59PM
    • Re:elites? by Refrag (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:33PM
  • Close, but not quite by Enrico Pulatzo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:01PM
  • What nonsense by silverbax (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:02PM
  • Donald Norman doesn't agree with Katz by shking (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:05PM
  • Nazi Germany by mitchell_pgh (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:05PM
  • Ease of use by ch-chuck (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:12PM
  • Katz is still around, eh? by mrfiddlehead (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:18PM
  • This article ignores one key point... by JonathanF (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:29PM
  • Design enriches our lives by snStarter (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:40PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • A simple literary analogy... by Ikari Gendo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:49PM
  • Don't let it go to your head. by alphaparadigm (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:49PM
  • A PC and/or Software Success Formula by neoevans (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @04:55PM
  • Dance Monkey Boy! by InstantCool (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:01PM
  • Moderate Articles? by InstantCool (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:05PM
  • This is bollocks by njdj (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:06PM
  • I am convinced... by UtSupra (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:13PM
  • microsoft and "coolness" by Eugene O'Neil (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:16PM
  • Think about what Mac really is? by masterkool (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:21PM
  • Market Will Decide by reallocate (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:30PM
  • Really? by Fizzlewhiff (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:31PM
  • Can someone explain... by Simon Garlick (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:46PM
  • We hate JonKatz! w00t! by glwtta (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:46PM
  • Jon Katz has a good point by Tyrone Slothrop (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:52PM
  • The solution to the Katz problem by guet (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @05:59PM
  • Money in the bank by Jobe_br (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @06:06PM
  • Apple and Digital Video by throatmonster (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @06:19PM
  • Transposing by zp (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @06:29PM
  • Anice little link - The Myths about Macs by WhtDaUWant (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:34PM
  • Selling coloured plastic - Version 2.0 by Eunuyx (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:35PM
  • Apples to Oranges, Fords to Beemers. by cjohnson (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:35PM
  • Bias by mattsammons (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:55PM
  • Think a minute by Omerna (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:38PM
  • You are what you buy! by tomem (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @08:42PM
  • I used to think non-techies were just stupid... by zerofoo (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:24PM
  • So it's trust now? by bearded_yak (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:53PM
  • A look at what ordinary middle class users want by TheMCP (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:53PM
  • Humor: The Onion's Take (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Embedded Geek (532893) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:55PM (#2846494) Homepage
    Perhaps off topic, but what the heck...

    Check out this piece from the Onion [theonion.com] poking some fun at the new iMac. I especially like "special drool tray catches saliva of enthralled technogeeks."

  • We need a style for the people by treeborg (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:56PM
  • 'Way off Target, Katz by ablair (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:26PM
  • My Brainstorm (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MoneyT (548795) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:27PM (#2846582) Journal
    Think about Apple for a second, they have always marketed products and ideas that were different, ahead of their time and most certainly not popular. Even when the first mac came out, it was different and tech people didn't like it (at first).

    Now years later, Apple has been through 47 million dollar losses and come back to still be a profit turning company. This time though, Apple isn't marketing to the masses. Why? They're dull, boring, orthadox, pattern forming, and conformists. They don't allow for new ideas. As the man said, they don't trust the computer industry (paraphrased).

    These are not the people that Apple sells to anymore. Apple sells to photo buffs, movie buffs, music buffs, *NIX geeks, people into style, non tech savy people, people who want to have a part of the future today. While these are all niche markets, they are loyal niche markets.

    Photo buffs, movie buffs and music buffs all have a favorite company they use. They like to get as much stuff as they can from that company. Never mind they can get a better price from someone else, or maybe even a step better, the fact of the matter is, they can get what they need for their product reliably from one place. This naturaly lends them to be loyal people and thus ideal customers for Apple.

    *NIX geeks love to be different, and love to be creative. They don't like things to be done the orthadox way, it's not interesting. New a different ways of doing things are what makes a *NIX geek tick. They love tweaking the code, and trying a different approach. Again, an ideal mac customer.

    Non-tech savy people are looking for something easy, fast (to get going not processor speed) and all in one packaging. And since Apple provides all of this, they look good to new users. Since most new people like to stick with the original company for a while, they are at least temporarily loyal, and once again make an idea Apple customer.

    Finaly the people who want a bit of the future today. Almost every product Apple has designed has been ahead of its time. Maybe not in sheer power, but in design and style, which has later been copied or imitated in the mass computers. Yes, no matter how you look at it, colorful PCs are the result of the iMac. And these people are also very willing to try something new. SCSI, USB, Firewire, PDAs, GUIs, OS X, all of these ideas and concepts, while they may have been developed elsewhere, where succesfuly pushed and marketed by Apple. They would not be where they are today without that push. And to try to market those ideas to the masses would result in failure. For example, USB, developed by intel, and used occasionaly, but not accepted because no one wanted to change. Along comes the iMac, a USB only machine, and suddenly USB springs up like wild fire.

    Apple is succesful, not because they turn the best profit, but because they have loyal cutomers. They have lived through debt and profit, minimal sales and best sales, each time, comming out sucessful in their endevor. That isn't to say they haven't made mistakes, the 20th aniversary mac and the Cube didn't do good at all. But Apple can afford to make mistakes because they have customers willing to wait it out. Their success may not be based on profits, but then again, niether is the Chevy corvette's.
  • I hate the new iMac. by BitwizeGHC (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:37PM
  • Katz's Computer Stagnation by Shuh (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @10:52PM
  • Think Marketshare (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Angerson (121904) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @11:04PM (#2846672) Homepage
    Sorry Katz, but in the world of technology the concept of better product = success is bunk. It's all about market penetration and monopoly power. It makes very little difference if Mac OS X is better than Windows XP because 95% of the market already uses XP and I'm willing to bet that most of those folks have never even used a non-Microsoft OS. It's hard to compete when you can't even step on the field.

    I have a perfect, highly unscientific example of this. I teach an introduction to Macintosh course in the art department of a local college. This course is a prerequisite to all the other design courses in the curriculum since all the classes are Mac-based. On average, less than 5% of my students have ever used a non-Microsoft OS and, in fact, most of these students thought "Windows" and "Computer" were synonymous -they were unaware you could even have one without the other.

    Despite this demographic skew, at the conclusion of the course around 90% of my students stated that they were planning to switch from Windows to Macintosh. Now the question is, were the students switching because they liked the Mac better or because everyone in the art department used Macs? Part two of the question? Does it matter?

    Marketshare = success. Plain and simple.
  • Why? by jonbrewer (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @11:13PM
  • Where's ... by magnetHEAD (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @11:49PM
  • the logic of jon katz (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fishboy (81833) <pieter@@@blokker...ca> on Wednesday January 16 2002, @12:23AM (#2846921) Homepage
    i think i was writing more cogent arguments when i was in highschool. at the very least i wasn't painting myself into a corner with my own stupidity.

    jon katz writes:

    "Burned by years of outrageously poor tech support, increasingly expensive software, and hardware that's almost instantly outdated, middle-class consumers aren't the least bit interested in the coolest new new thing. They want computing that works like TV does -- that's easy to use, takes little space, costs relatively little money and works every time you turn it on, year after year. The public is increasingly wise to tech scams like hardware that's obsolete every 18 months and software that doesn't even last that long."

    how does this make sense in his greater argument? apple seems to be the only manufacturer and large os retailer that is doing anything about these issues. so is apple addressing these concerns and is thus losing the battle? or are they not but others are? or nobody is?

    point by point commentary (slashdot take-down style)

    "Burned by years of outrageously poor tech support...

    apple has excellent tech support and wins accolades both over the phone and at the apple store. what makes it even better is that their products are easier to provide tech support for.

    increasingly expensive software and hardware,

    final cut pro has certainly lowered the cost of professional-level video editing by about $50 000. and the iapps are the best consumer applications of their type on the market, all free. apple hardware has not risen in price, it has fallen. the imac configuration last year offered a slower processor for $4500. this year it sells for $1800. impressive.

    that's almost instantly outdated,

    apple hardware retains its value in resale better than anyone else and remains in service longer. in fact, one of apple's problems has been that their hardware (and software) last too long. users don;t want to upgrade because their machine is doing for them.

    middle-class consumers aren't the least bit interested in the coolest new new thing.

    six million imac owners and 150 000 ipod owners say otherwise.

    They want computing that works like TV does -- that's easy to use, takes little space, costs relatively little money and works every time you turn it on, year after year.

    the mac works more like a tv than anyone else's box, more reliably. (i will remind jon that the whole reason we are using computers instead of watching tv is because computers are more complex and challenge us in ways that tv cannot (the info flows two ways here), and that there will be trade-offs in ease of use.) if the tv could do it, why isn't it? if someone is doing this better than apple, why aren't they?

    anyway, my point, jon, is that you can't have it both ways. either apple is going in the right direction and you've defeated your own argument or they aren't and you just aren't paying attention. or everybody is going in the wrong direction which doesn't make for much of an argument.

    either way you lose. what makes you lose even harder is that you walked into it.

    maybe apple's market position has to do with other factors you haven't cared to comment upon?

    maybe.
  • Katz is right by sgilliard (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @12:54AM
  • We're geeks, not marketroids by pclminion (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:01AM
  • Suck my furry scrotum, Katz by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:34AM
  • so that' s what it was by Wansu (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @03:02AM
  • So let me get this streight by interstellar_donkey (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @03:36AM
  • The Way Things Were by aarondyck (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @07:19AM
  • Lasts long...hmmm...whatyasmokin' Jon? by galego (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @08:15AM
  • colllege students count by NerdForChrist (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @11:45AM
  • Who paid you to say that, Katz? by Nightasha (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @03:11PM
  • for Jon Katz by ShiloCM (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @07:29PM
  • Katz Head up His Ass by smack.addict (Score:2) Thursday January 17 2002, @02:44PM
  • Cringley was right. by beagle (Score:2) Thursday January 17 2002, @03:52PM
  • The new Imac by Ecurb (Score:1) Thursday January 17 2002, @04:46PM
  • Silly Katz by deadfishhotmail.com (Score:1) Thursday January 17 2002, @07:18PM
  • Katz is right, but the Mac is still leading edge.. by txo (Score:1) Thursday January 17 2002, @07:28PM
  • Katz is an idiot by smartin (Score:2) Thursday January 17 2002, @07:35PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • what a load of crap by genXscientist (Score:1) Thursday January 17 2002, @11:05PM
  • Katz is RIGHT! by groupeone (Score:1) Friday January 18 2002, @12:15PM
  • Why do people hate Apple? by lezone (Score:1) Friday January 18 2002, @01:57PM
  • Why the war? by TestSlave (Score:1) Friday January 18 2002, @04:41PM
  • doers by taphu (Score:1) Monday January 21 2002, @09:49AM
  • Re:hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    >i cannot beleive people will be wowed by the imac, "hey, its a different shape, it must be really fast"

    You are missing the point. My coworkers' reactions were "woah, takes up such little space, i need one." and "dvd burning and a g4 with monitor for $1800? I'm sold."

    My reaction: "perhaps i don't need a second powerbook, when this imac would be portable enough for touring with."

    It's a great piece of design. Those who value their living space (like those of us here in NYC) will eat it up. Those who want affordable dvd burning and video editing love it. Those in the market for a "nearly portable" are also gaga for it.

    A computer can be a work of art too, you know.

    .
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:hmmm by donglekey (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:30PM
    • Re:hmmm by SilentChris (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:46PM
  • Aha by Judas666 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:18PM
    • Re:Aha by Migx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @11:19AM
  • Re:MacOSX = iCrap by rebug (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:26PM
  • Re:hmmm (Score:3, Insightful)

    by joshsisk (161347) on Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:28PM (#2842933)
    i cannot beleive people will be wowed by the imac, "hey, its a different shape, it must be really fast"

    With that comment, you reveal your position: a PC person, bent on MHz, MHz, MHz.

    Apple is positioning it's machines-at least it's iMac line- as "information appliances" now. Tools for certain jobs. Who cares how fast an information appliance is, as long as it's fast enough to do it's job?

    I doubt anyone is going to use one of these machines for any intense number crunching, or as a hardcore gaming rig. It's for using iPhoto, or IMovie, or iTunes, etc. For those purposes - the "digital entertainment hub" - it will work fine, look nice in your den and not take up too much space. And that's all Apple intended it to do.

    Whether or not it will be a mainstream success, that remains to be seen.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:hmmm by Bob Abooey (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:54PM
      • Re:hmmm by joshsisk (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:25PM
      • Re:hmmm by zeno_2 (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @02:53PM
        • Two issues: by Bob Abooey (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @03:26PM
      • Re:hmmm by gig (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @07:52PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:hmmm by rtphokie (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:54PM
  • Re:My take on this.. by b1t r0t (Score:2) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:33PM
  • Re:how by Alan Partridge (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @12:39PM
  • Re:Comcast Slobs? by jlower (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @01:02PM
  • Excuse me, "Self-Made Billionaire"? by waltc (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @09:22PM
  • Re:Katz must be an MS shill... by waltc (Score:1) Tuesday January 15 2002, @11:22PM
  • Re:This crApple Crap by eleven357 (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:33AM
  • Re:Doesn't sound like a Mac by Toraz Chryx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @05:55AM
  • Re:Are you telling me Mac is a BMW? No, better by Migx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:22PM
  • Re:Katz is right on the mark , tss tss by Migx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:32PM
  • Re:why don't you stop jon katz by Migx (Score:1) Wednesday January 16 2002, @01:54PM
  • Re:I think we all need a healthy dose of perspecti by gig (Score:2) Wednesday January 16 2002, @10:39PM
  • 90 replies beneath your current threshold.
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