Stuffing Junkmail Postage-Paid Envelopes?

Yesterday I mentioned that I've started returning the postage paid envelopes that come in most junkmail... except I returned them emptya as my personal little statement against the waste in time and resources that they are causing. Many readers emailed to tell me that I only had it half right: I should be weighting the envelopes down and forcing the junk mailer to pay postage on my little care packages. Have others tried this? What works? Most readers had suggestions ranging from sending each junkmailer the contents of a different junk mailers envelope to filling the envelope with shreddings from your crosscut paper shredder. Of course my personal favorite was the guy suggested a few pieces of sheet metal). Take a stand against junk mail! Sorry Mr. Postal Worker!

Re:Glue on the fold

'Warning contains glue - please remove me from ALL mailing lists'

So you are telling an envelope machine to take you off the mailing list.

Since this is Slashdot, there should be a reasonable expectation of how this works:

Somewhere out there, let's say suburban Chicago, there is a Mainframe with giant database with your name in it. Ocassionally the main office in downtown chicago gets an order to send spam out to 'select' customers such as you. Someone in that big shiny skyscraper punches in the query which then goes into the mainframe's batch queue.

The mainframe chugs on this for a while and then uses a 9600 baud modem to call a bulk mail facility, lets say in southern Indiana. Their machines punch out thousands of identical letters and put all the proper markings on them to get the good rate from the post office. The post office duly delivers your letter.

You, the kind slashdotter who gets pissed to hell about banner ads and crappy credit card offers, pour glue and dogshit and lead into the return envelope, which then gets delivered to the mail processing facility, which is in (lets say), Kansas. Some poor minimum wage hicks spend all day cleaning their shit out their machine.

You might notice at this point that the guy cleaning the machine and (maybe) finding your envelope has no access to the original mainframe database. In fact, if you had accepted that credit card offer, your paperwork would have whisked to some other data entry facility a mile or two away, where the information would have been re-entered from scratch.

Re:What you need is government regulation.

Unfortunately the UK's Mailing Preference Service is not backed by law - any company that is not part of the UK Direct Marketing Association is free to do what it wants. See http://www.dma.org.uk/thedma/cgi-bin/incorporate.p l?&path=../documents/prfro4izm.txt&user=flflflflfl fl

The Data Protection Act does seem to provide some degree of opt-out - every reputable company gives you the chance to opt out of mailings, but you have to hunt to find the tiny box on the form that you need to tick for this. You can't register your name directly with the data protection registrar, only with the DMA's service or individual companies to opt out of their mailings.

Re:Weight

Somehow, I think a slice of depleted uranium would be more expensive to you than to them.

-

how to stop junk mail

Mailing bricks and such is not only a pain for the USPS and of questionable impact on your junk mail inflow, it just sounds like a lot of work. If your goal is to get less junk mail, there are steps you can take that are easier, more effective, and have fewer innocent victims.

Many junk mailers belong to the Direct Marketing Association [the-dma.org]. The DMA maintains an opt-out list [the-dma.org]--you can tell them you don't want junk mail, and member organizations will stop sending it to you. I haven't tried the mail service (mail doesn't bother me) but I've registered with the DMA that I don't want telemarketing calls [the-dma.org], and it worked great.

Even companies that haven't joined the DMA generally don't get much value from sending mail to people who hate it. If you write them a letter asking to be removed from their mailing list, that may do the trick.

If they persist, you can legally bar any non-governmental organization from sending you mail [junkbusters.com]. There's a little trick to this: The law you have to use was designed to stop unsolicited pornographic mail, so if you want to stop getting mail from Microsoft you may have to claim with a straight face that Windows 2000 turns you on. But, you know, maybe it does. And in any case the post office is prohibited from deciding you're lying. (Also, that's a bad example--Microsoft isn't persistent enough to necessitate legal action.)

For more useful tips, see the JunkBusters page on how you can gain control of your mailbox [junkbusters.com].

Of course, none of these tactics will cause a major philosophical shift in the U.S.'s view of junk mail. If that's your goal, well, good luck, maybe your bricks will really make them think. But if you just want to get less junk mail, do it the easy way.

Please don't

While sending irrelevant or heavy things hurts the (to you) offending company's bottom line, and provides an incentive for them to clean up their act, sending something rotting will only hurt the minimum wage mail opener who has to work three jobs to pay their children's medical bills.

Re:NOT TRUE!

You are mistaken. At such time, in *most* places, you put something in the garbage, it becomes the property of anyone willing to rummage through it.

I know where I live, once it goes out, anyone can grab it. (I almost got shot once trying to explain this to a dude who threw out a repairable gas grill, yet once I started to haul it off, threatened that either A) I pay him for it, or B) he call the cops. I said call em.. once it is out on the curb with other garbage intended for pickup, it is fair game.)

As far as the envelope with someone elses name on it.. I believe that falls under the same rules. Once it leaves the mailbox and is recieved by the recipient, it is out of the care of the US mail and is a piece of paper.

Go ask some of the celebrities whose trash is picked daily by the tabloids. If it were a felony and punishable, why are they still in business?

Maeryk

'Anonymous' junkmail

Sometimes, I receive junkmail that is manually put in my mailbox (ie: no address on it, I receive the same as everyone else).

I love those. I fake the name and address of my best friends, and fill the card with bogus information. Quite pleasant. I also do at least one little error in the first/lastname/address, and tell my friends about it. Then, I have this warm feeling because I know that sometimes, somewhere, somebody is thinking of me.

Btw, when I order something by mail, or give my address for whatever purpose, I _always_ make a slight error in the address (for instance, there are no appartments where I live, so I add a random appartment number). This way, I know who sells my name/address to who. Fascinating, sometimes.

Cheers,

--fred

Canada Post

Ive just got off the phone with the 1800 Canada Post service line in Toronto. I spoke with a 'customer service rep'.
I posed this question:

"If sent a package (shoe box, brick or treebranch.) with a "Postage Gauranteed" or "no Stamp required" type envelope or postcard, what happens to the package?"

Her response "The package technically has 'insufficient postage' in this case. The package will goto an "Undeliverable Mail Center" where an authorized Agent of the Post Office will open the package in order to determine a Return Address. When none is found the package is then 'offered' to the addressee (our markatroid victims) - they can REFUSE to accept this package. If they do this: they are not responsible for the shipping. The package will return to our 'Undeliverable Mail Center" where it will remain for 6 months. If the package contents are of any value they are donated to charity; else they are destroyed."

Basically, if you send a package attached to one of these reply cards/envelops and the markatroids refuse (which they will once they are burned once or twice (as there is never any reason to send a package as a response to one of their mindless pitches)) Canada Post ends up 'holding the bag' for the cost of our efforts.

I realized afterwards that the above scenario may be dependant on the person sending a package through the system: What happens with an envelope full of sand? Something that would exceed the 'letter mail' weight limit and arrive 'postage due' (and mandatory payment by the markatroid scum). And unfortunately the same thing occurs. Basically each envelope/card has a unique ID which references a contract with some Markatroid BizCo. They agree to pay 0.47 (cost of a stamp) for each letter sent. Nothing more - and only letters can be sent. Anything else ends up at these UMCs.

Now, the kicker: I proposed to him "What would happen if people did this anyway. And Canada Post ended up receiving thousands of these packages that they were forced to transport the mail and incure the cost'. Could Canadian 'Postal Law' be used to force them to use the system above with MANY MANY MANY packages - this would make Canada Post want to change their system with regards to JunkMail Postage Paid letters (maybe raise prices causing junkmail of this type to decrease). This tact may be a successfull way to protest - and force Canada Post to change their JunkMailing policies...

So I phoned Legal Aid Ontario, who refered me to a University of Windsor Legal Clinic - the person I spoke with their told me that they were unaware of the relevant law (and could not technically give me any advice on the phone). It may be a Federal Law issue... she suggested I phone a Civil Liberties Professor she knew who may 'get a kick out of the idea' (i understood this to mean he was probably sympathetic to the idea). So - I will email him. My question will be in this vein: What is Canada Post obligated to do with the packages I put in the Post Office Box? Would they have to send them to these Authorized UMCs? Could they simply turn and pitch all these items at the nearest garbage pail - OR - would that violate some kind of law?

Ill add our email messages to the bottom of this post when they arrive.

JunkBusters.com can help to get rid of junk mail

It's a great website [junkbusters.com]. See for yourself - they have an online form JunkBusters Declare [junkbusters.com] which lets you specify which kind of mail you do NOT want to receive and send out the declaration to all the major marketing companies. In addition they talk about the legal procedure to opt-out of junk mail at the post office.

Re:What you need is government regulation.

A litle regulation here, a little regulation there. Each tiny step to more government regulation is another foot down the path to pure socialism. If you oppose socialism, as I do, then anything which leans society to that eventual direction is something that I will oppose. While irritating, it takes me all of 5-10 seconds to sort my mail and throw the junk mail in the trash. Hardly worth freeing up 10 seconds of my life a day just to allow the government to control one more thing.

I think this quote is appropriate:
"The big question to ask about proposals for new laws and policies is not whether they sound reasonable, but what damage they can do when they are used unreasonably."
-Thomas Sowell

you, sir, are an idiot.

Let me be the 597th person to say:

Taco, you are a fucking idiot.

If you want no junk mail, sign up for the "no junk mail" list run by the Direct Marketing Association. This will have effects.

Sending back shit in envelopes just raises the prices on goods those companies sell, which are the goods you have to buy. Most junk mail comes from companies you do business with in some way - your bank, your credit card company, computer companies, etc. It does not make the companies lose money, it just makes you and anyone who does business with them lose money.

I suppose next you will throw another temper tantrum and decide that since local calls are free and you don't like your phone company, you'll attempt to screw them by calling your 2nd line with your 1st and leaving the line open and unattended all day.

Re:Misguided protest

The protest is not misguided; in fact, in a society that's structurally based on profit and greed, the *only* effective way to protest is to make somebody pay. They will never listen unless it affects their bottom line. To fight telemarketers, putting them on old is the optimal strategy because it increases their cost of doing business. This is not the same as opening the windows of your apartment in the winter, because heating cost is ultimately paid by me, while telemarketing is ultimately paid by the advertising business, which I of course avoid.

--

Two birds with one stone...

Of course, Abbie Hoffman suggested pasting bircks to business reply cards in his seminal work Steal This Book. But to kill too birds with one stone, try gluing the silly AOL CDs to them and then drop them in a blue postal box.

Most Americans don't realize how backward we are

In most developed countries, no one opens a bunch of paper bills, writes paper checks, puts them in envelopes, and mails them. Almost all payments are handled electronically. The US is far behind Europe in this regard.

Re:A Useless Tactic

When you choose to enlist as a foot soldier, don't complain when the enemy decides to use its tanks.

So long as it is economically viable for the junk mailers to send out the stuff, so long as they're at least getting something out of it, then they will continue to do so.

So, if I can make your job so bad that you quit and no one else will take it, the jer^H^H^H"powers-that-be" will have to open their own mail. This will most likely be the point that it is no longer viable economically.

Get this straight. I wish to make your job as difficult as possible. I wish to make the telemarketer's job as difficult as possible. I wish to make the spammer's job as difficult as possible. Eventually, no one will take these jobs, and the world will be the better for it. These tactics are not the most effective tool, but it is the only way in which I can get you all to leave me alone.

Send them something rotting...

You could always put something that is obviously rotting in there... just find your local side street with some roadkill, scrape it up, package it, and send it in! won't they be surprised! I'm not quite so vengeful but it might be kind of funny.

One of my coworkers said his grandfather used to send in the card saying 'Please don't mail me again and take me off your list.' and include half a cup of chili or jello or porriage. And because the card is covered in crap, they'd always have to enter it in by hand. He got quite a few calls back from people, and would just play senile from there.

'But I thought you boys could use a nice bowl of chili!'


--
Gonzo Granzeau

Re:What you need is government regulation.

Remove one little regulation here, a little regulation there. Each tiny step to less government regulation is another foot down the path to pure anarchy. If you oppose total anarchy, as I do, then anything which leans society to that eventual direction is something that I will oppose.

Hey here is an idea why not judge each regulation on it's merits? Would that be too hard to deal with in your ideology?

My personal Faves:

• Filling in fake information then paying whatever they are asking for in Monopoly Money.
• Send them Polaroids of yourself, ask them to write back.
• Two Words: AOL Discs ;)
• Scrawl "Help Me" on a post-it note, cover in ketsup, mail it.

I'm sure you guys have some good ones too....

Sorry Mr. Postal worker?

Yeah, that will appease him when his fallen arches and aching back makes him come after you with an AK-47.

What you need is government regulation.

Junk mail is the ugly face of capitalism. However, in the UK you can opt out of Junk Mail completely by registering your name with a government organisation. It is then illegal for a company to send you unsolicited mail, and they have to check a central repository of names before they send any mail at all.

Why can't the US drop it's paranoid fear of government and implement such a system? It's not as though it will bring socialism crashing down on your head, is it? Is it?

NOT TRUE!

THIS IS NOT TRUE!

At least, not in the US! True, it's a flat fee per envelope TO MAIL OUT (from the company) but there's also a running account between the company and the postal service for returned envelopes!

Look in the corner where the stamp would be and you'll see the account number I'm talking about!

I used to work in accounts payable for a large organization in LA that did tens of thousands of these per week - and I remember writing the check to the US Postal service for the BRE's (Bulk Return Envelopes) as well as to Pitney Bowes for the original letters mailed OUT.

-Ben

MAIL PREFERENCE SERVICE -- mod this way up PLEASE

Returning business-reply envelopes will NOT get you significantly less junk mail -- the recipients have no incentive to take you off any lists but their own.

However, you can easily get yourself taken off the VAST majority of snail-mail lists with a single postcard to the Mail Preference Service [the-dma.org]. I have tried this from mutiple addresses and it works dramatically well. But it takes a month or two to kick in.

If you really care about getting less junk, simply send a postcard to:

• MAIL PREFERENCE SERVICE
• 
  P. O. BOX 9008
  FARMINGDALE, NY 11735

One of the reasons this works so well is that the service is run for the Direct Marketing Association by ADP, the company that does more payroll than any other. The remove-list is offered for free to anyone who asks for it, all because the service is mandated and enforced my law in some fairly large municipalities and a few states.

Please mod this way up!

Going postal

I found http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volum e6/v6i4/postal-6-4.html [improbable.com] on Memepool [memepool.com]. It details just what you can get away with when (ab)using the USPS.
--

Re:don't overload, they'll just get chucked

You can remove your name from the lists.

A good 90% of mass-marketing companies belong to the Direct Marketing Association. The DMA has an opt-out list, which its members must abide by.

PLEASE!! Go to these web pages and learn how to do it:

[Privacy Council Opt-Out Page] [privacycouncil.com]

Read the entire page. There are links to your DMV, to credit bureaus, to the DMA... everyone important.

--

Re:You're just inconveniencing the Post Office

Not true at all.. My reply envelopes from several organizations have a suggestion to affix a stamp to them, to save the organization money, instead of not using a stamp and having the organization pay the postage when they recieve the envelope. Why would they do this if it didn't change what they paid?

Re:You're just inconveniencing the Post Office

When I used to work for an insurance company, and I dealt with a lot of mail (bill payments from customers, not junk mail responses), that wasn't quite true. According to the office manager, we paid a license to be able to do Business Reply mail. But we got a bill every month from the postal service with the actual amount of things which were returned.

So you're half right. There is a cost just to be allowed to spam you with those envelopes. But it does cost the company per-envelope.

I can't remember if we got charged for the actual weight.

Re:You're just inconveniencing the Post Office

You couldnt be more wrong... You are charged by the post office when the mail is returned.

From the Domestic Mail Manual available at http://pe.usps.gov

S-58 3.0 p. 914 DMM issue 56

"Each piece of returned BRM is charged the applicable single-piece First-Class or Priority Mail postage. Cards must meet the standards in C100 to qualify for card rate postage. Any card larger than those dimensions is charged the applicable First-Class Mail letter rated. For Priority Mail over 5 pounds if the zone cannot be determined from a return address or cancellation, then the permit holder is charged zone 4 postage for the weight of the piece.

Furthermore, for all you people "strap a brick to the BRM and throw it in a mail box... yeah that will get them"

p. 913 S922 1.6

BRM may not be used for any purpose other than that intended by the permit holder, even if postage is affixed. In cases where a BRM card or letter is used improperly as a label, the USPS treats the item as waste.

Please moderate this up, and that other idiot dowm.

Give it a rest

I for one enjoy getting junk mail.

There is an important difference between junk mail and spam, and that it that is that junk mail costs the sender real physical dollars. The stuff you recieve in the mail are mostly legitimate. Its easy to filter out. It only takes time if you let it. Finally, the costs of junk mail is used by the USPS to subsidize acutual postage.

Would nay of you be willing to pay 75 cents for a stamp in order to get no junk mail? This is a real dollar issue, and I have no problem with junk mail at all. I find that the best credit card offers are junk mailed to me. I get menus to my local chinese restaurants. Its a good thing.

Contrast this with SPAM, or Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE). This costs the sender nothing. It is frequently fraudulent, illegal, or 'scammy'. Some garbage about buying a stock or checking out a web page. The problem with the SPAM is that it doesn't cost anything! I wish to god that there was someway I could stuff a brick in a return envelope to every SPAMMER out there, but I can't so I make due with filters.

I am not aware of the technology required, but it seems to me the only real way to eliminated SPAM is to develop some sort of universal validated return address. Like caller-id, it would be optional, and like caller-id, you could block messages from those who don't disclose a valid return address.

But please don't terrorize those junk mailers, they are an annoyance that causes more good than harm.

--Pete

'he felt himself splitting into two halfs, one part soft, one part hard, one part warm, and one part cold, one part trembling, and one part not trembling, each half grinding against the other."--Ray Bradbury

Glue on the fold

First either find a glue that stays 'tacky' over long period of times, or get a little plastic bag, put glue in it, and seal it.

Now stick that on the inside of the envelope, and fold the top over - the idea being that when the junkmailers automatic enveloper-cutter comes across it, the contents of the envelope literally gums up the works.

If you put on the back, 'Warning contains glue - please remove me from ALL mailing lists', it'll also prompt them to actually read the envelopes before putting them in their systems. You did warn them, so you can't be held responsible, and you also asked to be removed from the mailing list as well...

Richy C.

A Useless Tactic

My current job involves handling mailings and donations for a non-profit organization in San Francisco, CA. We send out lots of direct mail (too much, IMO), and we get lots of people sending it back angrily and even some of them use tactics described in this article.

While it is annoying for us to have to deal with that, the powers that be 'round here still send out the same volume of mail - no, they've actually INCREASED the volume of mail - as before. We who actually open the mail and read the complaints feel your pain, but there isn't much we can do except put them in a file and try in vain to convince the people in charge that their mail campaign is a disastrous failure.

So long as it is economically viable for the junk mailers to send out the stuff, so long as they're at least getting something out of it, then they will continue to do so. And the sheer amount of mail, through the USPS or through your e-mail, is a testament to the basic fact that such mailings are, against all sense, effective.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one

Re:MAIL PREFERENCE SERVICE -- mod this way up PLEA

If you want to get off the Credit Reporters' lists, (and stop being "Pre Approved for this new fancy credit card!") here's the number for Trans Union:

1-888-5OPT-OUT
Call them, then listen to the options:
"Press 1 to be removed from marketing lists for 2 years"
(forgot what 2 was)
"Press 3 to be removed from marketing lists *permanently*"

Isn't it funny how they hide the "permanent" option at the end?

From http://www.transunion.com/General/MarketingOptOut. asp

"If you want your name and address removed from all mailing lists offered by the main consumer credit reporting agencies: Trans Union, Experian, Equifax and Innovis, call 888-5OPTOUT (888-567-8688), or write to the following address:
Trans Union LLC's Name Removal Option
P.O. Box 97328
Jackson, MS 39288-7328

Requests should include the following information:

First, middle, and last names (including Jr., Sr., III)
Current address
Previous address (if you've moved in the last six months)
Social Security Number
Date of birth
Signature

If you opt-out, you will no longer appear on direct marketing lists offered by these four credit reporting agencies. However, you may continue to receive commercial mailings based on lists from other sources. "

If you select the "permanent" option, they will send you a form to sign and return. This has the benefit of *proving* you requested privacy, and makes it much easier to take them to court if they happen to "forget" what your preferences were.

Happy Hunting!

Misguided protest

Think for a second. Who actually pays postage on those 'postage paid' envelopes?

Most junk mail I get comes from companies with which I do business in some way.. Usually, it's credit card companies or software companies of some kind.

The junk mail is paid for in my fees, and in the price of my software.

Sending back 'postage paid' envelopes is the same sort of near-sighted temper tantrum as openning the windows in your apartment and turning up the heat - because it's 'included' in your rent. It's the same as putting a telemarketter on hold, rather than just hanging up. It's like leaving your TV on all day, because you pay for cable 24/7, but can't be there to watch it.

If you want to protest, call the company, or at least include a letter asking them to switch to a 'solicited mailings only' scheme. Otherwise you're just wasting your own (and others' like you) money.

The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196