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Coding Classes & Required Development Environments?

Posted by Cliff on Sat Aug 26, 2000 04:18 AM
from the why-you-can't-go-your-own-way dept.
Sadistic Yoda asks: "I walk into my entry level C++ class and the TA informs us that the code must compile under CodeWarrior for Windows, which is included with the text (Problem Solving with C++: The Object of Programming, Second Edition, by Walter Savitch), to receive passing grades. Personally I would rather use vi and g++ on the department's Debian machines from the shell. Will I run into any problems or do I bite my tongue and make it through class using their program?" I find it disappointing that schools think that "teaching programming" involves locking their students into a specific environment. I know it makes it easy for the teachers and TAs when it comes to technical support, but what about those students who already have a handle on their own system, are willing to learn the language (and its pitfalls in all environments) who can't (or won't) run the required software for whatever reason? Is this limited form of teaching really teaching?
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  • Re:similar experience by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:14AM
  • I Wish I Was This Young and Had These Issues by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:29PM
  • Okie, now for the ontopic posting by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:31PM
  • relevance by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:38PM
  • Re:similar experience by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:51AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:02AM
  • Re:Concepts vs language/compiler/os by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:03AM
  • Re:similar experience by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:37AM
  • Amen, brothers. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:41AM
  • Re:similar experience by Mark Edwards (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:26AM
  • Re:At least you're offered C++! by lars (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:41AM
  • Re:My experiences on this subject by aerique (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:15AM
  • You Misunderstood My Commentary Completly. by Clifton Wood (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:11PM
  • Re:You Misunderstood My Commentary Completly. by Clifton Wood (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @10:02AM
  • Re:You Misunderstood My Commentary Completly. by Clifton Wood (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @10:04AM
  • Re:beginning class needs standard environment by Clifton Wood (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @10:20AM
  • Re:similar experience by sabi (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:45AM
  • at entry level it shouldnt matter by pixel fairy (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:40PM
  • Don't blow it out of proportion by Kostya (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:52AM
  • Solution: by Cyclops (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:53AM
  • Gradability, compatibility, and specification by iabervon (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:49AM
  • Re:Make life easier for yourself and others by PiMan (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:56AM
  • I SO HATE LAZY ASS TEACHERS!! by perfecto (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:49AM
  • Re:Valid Teaching Method by perfecto (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:55AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by perfecto (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:05AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by perfecto (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:12AM
  • Probable reasons by ecloud (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:17PM
  • Re:I don't really see the problem... by Harik (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:43PM
  • Nice Try by Loundry (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @04:40PM
  • My experiences on this subject by Loundry (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:34AM
  • Re:Deal with Language, not environment or compiler by Jonathan (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:19AM
  • Re:similar experience by broohaha (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:01PM
  • Re:Codewarrior not as bad as it could be by bcombee (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:55PM
  • Re:Codewarrior is pretty good by bcombee (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:58PM
  • Not at my school by Mandrias (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:32AM
  • Exact opposite here by aclark (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:20AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by broonie (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:40AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Phil Wilkins (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:37AM
  • Accept the "restriction"! by rew (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @04:47AM
  • Pick a different section by soward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:25AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by DocTee (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:11AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by DocTee (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @05:00AM
  • Re:Forced to run (even buy) Windows? by Mr Z (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:41AM
  • I know how you feel. by Vapor (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:46AM
  • Experiences by prwood (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:36AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by Goonie (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:13PM
  • Yes, they really should do it this way. by ghjm (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:30AM
  • Re:similar experience by Stele (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:36AM
  • Re:Valid Teaching Method by MURDOCK1 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:15AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by necama (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:17AM
  • bla! by LWolenczak (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:26AM
  • By The way by LWolenczak (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:29AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Mike Buddha (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @01:47PM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by Mike Buddha (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @01:31AM
  • This is why... by Edward Teach (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:19AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by Keel (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:14AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by IntlHarvester (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:38AM
  • Sadly, It is necessary by Muad (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:01AM
  • my college by Grifter (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:54AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by r (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:14AM
  • YAHSAVCPP by Teancom (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:33AM
  • One way of doing it ... by Roy Ward (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:30AM
  • To actually answer the question... by CE@UIC (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:25AM
  • Bite your tongue by Ty (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:39AM
  • Re:You should still use a proper debugger. by EricWright (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @01:42AM
  • Re:Cliff is a fool by goodrichgs (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @11:21AM
  • Fair Treatment by FunnyBunny (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:13AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by akintayo (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:43AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Grit (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:36AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Grit (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:38AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Black Parrot (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:22AM
  • Irony by AllDewedUp (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:54AM
  • Don't be ridiculous. by Moofie (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:01AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Rombuu (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:19AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Rombuu (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:33AM
  • When I was your age.... by sohp (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:29AM
  • Re:School Should Require Code to Work Anywhere by Finni (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:52AM
  • Hmmmmms by darkewolf (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:08AM
  • teaching "programs" versus teaching "thought" by adrien (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:27AM
  • I don't really see the problem... by delmoi (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:32PM
  • Oh god! by delmoi (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:47PM
  • huh? by delmoi (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:52PM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by delmoi (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:56PM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by gmhowell (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:22AM
  • Hidden deals? by WyldOne (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:46PM
  • This is an Opportunity (was: way the world works.) by DemianJ (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:48AM
  • At Least The Book Is Good... by BadmanX (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:58AM
  • industry requirements by tongue (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:32AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Foogle (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:14AM
  • Total opposite here by Adam Knapp (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:06AM
  • One problem I had by toaster13 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:52AM
  • Blessing in disguise by ttfkam (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:00AM
  • Re:similar experience by Tower (Score:1) Tuesday August 29 2000, @10:21AM
  • Re:sure... by Tower (Score:1) Tuesday August 29 2000, @10:24AM
  • Re:similar experience by Tower (Score:1) Thursday August 31 2000, @11:20AM
  • I wonder..... by palndron (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:35AM
  • Re:You probably want to do it their way... by sockeater (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:57AM
  • C++ compilers by bmacy (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:22AM
  • Portability by slashdot-me (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:58AM
  • You're lucky by throx (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:13AM
  • try turning it around by zzzeek (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:54AM
  • Re:similar experience by civilizedINTENSITY (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:54AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by civilizedINTENSITY (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:03AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by civilizedINTENSITY (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:05AM
  • I Know how old COBOL is but I have the same proble by AYEq (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:35PM
  • Re:huh? by AYEq (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:11AM
  • (OT) codewarrior is available for linux by Oniros (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:27AM
  • automated tests by Oniros (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:38AM
  • Here's what you do by RobertW103 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:34AM
  • Re:similar experience by QuoteMstr (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:26AM
  • Re:similar experience by tatsu69 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:06AM
  • Wy are you in the class? by oldskool (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:44PM
  • The problems of college CS clases by Necroman (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:27AM
  • Labs & Compilers by Minupla (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:02AM
  • Re:Because it's just gcc wrapped with a nice GUI by treke (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:24AM
  • Re:Oh god! by soaper (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:01AM
  • Environments in Programming by Hasues (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:17AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Ramses0 (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @06:29AM
  • Stay with g++ by Christoph Bugel (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:57PM
  • #include <sstream> incompatibility by Christoph Bugel (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:49AM
  • Someone moderate #125 UP! by ^chewie (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:24AM
  • No one is impressed with a geek who only does vi by rent (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:44AM
  • Re:similar experience by UnknownSoldier (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:53AM
  • Re:Excuse me, example not so valid... by cookieman (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @12:23AM
  • Re:similar experience by Cramer (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:15AM
  • NCSU web certification program requires Windows by Bogatyr (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:35AM
  • Re:AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH. by tommck (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:Is this really a problem at this level? by Stonehand (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:11AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by apathetic (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:46PM
  • That Walter Savitch book is for beginners by male (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:29AM
  • the only practical way by RussRoss (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:49AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by EyesOfNostradamus (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:18AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by EyesOfNostradamus (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:32AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by EyesOfNostradamus (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:18AM
  • What I do.. by jcampbell (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:24AM
  • Experience as a TA by staplin (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @05:32AM
  • Graders can't make special exceptions. by -=[ SYRiNX ]=- (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:34AM
  • Locked coding Environment by Pass_Thru (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:36PM
  • The real world... by crath (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:10AM
  • Re:To answer Cliff and Yoda by An El Haqq (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @05:50PM
  • UK's CS115 by PraveenS (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:45AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by argel (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:32PM
  • I had this problem.... by blogan (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:22AM
  • Re:huh? by Shadow99_1 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:34AM
  • Re:Make life easier for yourself and others by jimmoores (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:59AM
  • codewarrior aint all bad.... by Da_Monk (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:02AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Fnkmaster (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:35AM
  • Coding and Curriculum by Rhonabwy (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:33PM
  • Been there, done that... by ken_mcneil (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:18AM
  • Blessing In Disguise by orj (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @04:44PM
  • At least you're offered C++! by c4 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:21AM
  • Re:I don't really see the problem... by bradipo (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:19AM
  • learn you must, obey you will! by letchhausen (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:20AM
  • Re:Another point to consider... by Talonius (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @06:33AM
  • Re:Another point to consider... by Talonius (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:44AM
  • Re:try turning it around by crucini (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:42PM
  • Re:That's way the world works by crucini (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:45PM
  • Re:That's way the world works by Xman (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:50AM
  • Re:I don't believe this by Captain Chad (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:12AM
  • same situation at URI by jaxon6 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:45PM
  • Re:gcc newlines? by Karellen (Score:1) Tuesday August 29 2000, @03:35AM
  • My $0.02 by cecil36 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:14AM
  • advice from a former TA... by rockrat (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:03PM
  • Every situation is different by Rower227 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:59AM
  • Re:similar experience by Cheshire Cat (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:29PM
  • Mr Speyer's AP class... by asink (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:53PM
  • Re:It ports with ease by irksome (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:37AM
  • Re:Walking to University 10 miles uphill both ways by qux.net (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:29AM
  • Re:Another point to consider... by BlueGecko (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @06:28AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by jayc33 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:21AM
  • Re:similar experience by Vanders (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:02AM
  • codewarrior vs. g++ by NNland (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:12AM
  • Re:Does the choice compiler really matter... by earache (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:44AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Mr. Sketch (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:42AM
  • Re:similar experience by Fesh (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @06:35AM
  • it's very possible to do by farkinga (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:32AM
  • Re:Pick a different section by biohazard99 (Score:1) Thursday August 31 2000, @11:18AM
  • Forced to use Linux by purplcow (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:16AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by SilverSun (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:33AM
  • Get Off Your High Horse by e2d2 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:04AM
  • My university by Xpilot (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:39AM
  • Re:Concepts vs language/compiler/os by cameloid (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:08AM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by QuantumRiff (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:49AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment. . .theres more by stevarooski (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:14AM
  • Syntax Errors by MyopicProwls (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:42AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by Zordak (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:52AM
  • Source control, Group projects, Etc. by melf (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:24AM
  • Limitations by waveeq (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:10AM
  • Re:Quit whining and grow up! by The Cookie Monster (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:49AM
  • Re:What education is for. by solszew (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:46PM
  • They use it because it's what's given to them by xtremex (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:02AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by xtremex (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:28AM
  • Re:newbie torture by mini me (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:58AM
  • Have You Ever Considered the Instructor? by JeffMagnus (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:56AM
  • As long as it is c++, we were fine. by hepatitis_bee (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:21AM
  • Re:Another point to consider... by Louis_Wu (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:07PM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Kevinb (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:54AM
  • Same kind of thing. by nutbar (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:57PM
  • Go with it ... it's not that bad. by desideria (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:57AM
  • Go with it ... it's not that bad. by desideria (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:26AM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by prefect42 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:10AM
  • that's the real world by nomadic (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:35PM
  • Why talk about languages? by Reemi (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:56AM
  • Do both by avandesande (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:57AM
  • Walter Savitch--Man For All Time by shion (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:52AM
  • vi? by Mortikhi Relentless (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:47AM
  • Forced to run (even buy) Windows? by danielp (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:21AM
  • straightjackened in an environment ? by Het Guur (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:11PM
  • Re:Teaching on a specific platform cuts the BS. by BitwizeGHC (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:25PM
  • I'm taking an AP Computer Science course... by wedg (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:06AM
  • Double huh? by cyber-vandal (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:36AM
  • Computer Resources by cacheMan (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:47AM
  • Teaching Computer Science v. Teaching Languages by nerdwarrior (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:32AM
  • Re:similar experience by n!ckb (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:07AM
  • Well, It's probably fair by aardvarkjoe (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:40PM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by aardvarkjoe (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:50AM
  • are you serious? by partingshot (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:31PM
  • Re:Cliff is a fool by partingshot (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:36PM
  • beginning class needs standard environment by partingshot (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:44PM
  • Is the headline inappropriate? by jdennett (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:38AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Spider-X (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:18AM
  • CS department at UW really cool about that stuff by jordanda (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:24AM
  • Re:Cliff is a fool by piku (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:07AM
  • We have to use Linux by LKH (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:44AM
  • Codewarrior versus g++ by herwin (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:37PM
  • Re:What education is for. by lamasquerade (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:19PM
  • Re:similar experience by sqlrob (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:47AM
  • Re:Concepts vs language/compiler/os by lpontiac (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:55PM
  • Re:Valid Teaching Method by lpontiac (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:58PM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by lpontiac (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:04PM
  • Re:Don't forget: corporate sponsorship. by lpontiac (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:13PM
  • Taking the easy option by GndZero (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:07AM
  • Quit whining and deal with it by AiY (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:11AM
  • A universal problem? by uriyan (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:18AM
  • What real-world programming is about by gdulli (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:19AM
  • Re:I'm taking an AP Computer Science course... by /dev/trash (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:19PM
  • My $0.02 by ckotchey (Score:1) Sunday August 27 2000, @02:42PM
  • Re:similar experience by jchristl (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @10:58AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment. . .theres more by Mike1024 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:41AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by CrimsonO (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:35AM
  • Re:This isn't as bad as it sounds... by Jordan Block (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:44AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by slick_rick (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:33AM
  • Re:#include <sstream> incompatibility by slick_rick (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:04AM
  • If you only... by alacrityfitzhugh (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:19AM
  • Moronic example won't work anywhere by alacrityfitzhugh (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:31AM
  • Re:#ifdef anyone? by OverCode@work (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:12AM
  • Do you REALLY want to support 5 different configs? by OverCode@work (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:36AM
  • Codewarrior isn't all that bad! by john_locke (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:42AM
  • Is this really a problem at this level? by JosephMast (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:35PM
  • Re:That's way the world works by coult (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:10AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by coult (Score:1) Monday August 28 2000, @04:04AM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by g_mcbay (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:29AM
  • Re:Okie, now for the ontopic posting by g_mcbay (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:34AM
  • Re:Forced to run (even buy) Windows? by g_mcbay (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:41AM
  • Use your head! by YouHaveSnail (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:43AM
  • Re:similar experience by troeg (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:09PM
  • Re:similar experience by troeg (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:19PM
  • Re:similar experience by troeg (Score:1) Wednesday August 30 2000, @01:54PM
  • Why don't you just get CodeWarrior for Linux? by CowbertPrime (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:30AM
  • Re:I don't really see the problem... by beaubell (Score:1) Friday August 25 2000, @11:57PM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by mitchkeller (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:39AM
  • Re:similar experience by packageman (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:58AM
  • Training for the Real World by cthlptlk (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:29AM
  • Former TA says it's resource restrictions by riotgrrl (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:32AM
  • The makings of a good experience by Tonsofun (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:02AM
  • choice of platform by Pink Daisy (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:59AM
  • All systems by MrRagu (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:39PM
  • Would this article be here if... by Moridineas (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:39AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Whistler007 (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:48AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by god (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:01AM
  • I'm just curious... by Kevin DeGraaf (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:22AM
  • Re:at entry level it shouldnt matter by spunkmirej (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:36AM
  • Simmilar Experiace Here by THATDOG! (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:35PM
  • Re:Study Fundamentals Not API's, Tools or OSes by THATDOG! (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:13PM
  • Tough it out. by perfectlynormalbeast (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:58AM
  • This is even more important at other schools! by John Harrison (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:43AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by esv (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:13AM
  • Re:gcc newlines? by Spurious George (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:26PM
  • When I was a kid... by dunderhead-bozo (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:45AM
  • Found the problem with Visual Studio. by norwoodites (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:14AM
  • Requirement is probably an overstatement. by captjl (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:58AM
  • Re: Cliff is a fool by yuusaku (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:49AM
  • Adaption is good. by kezman (Score:1) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:53PM
  • Could it be the... by L+st (Score:1) Saturday September 09 2000, @11:43AM
  • Requirements are GOOD - follow them. by BOredAtWork (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:07AM
  • Re:You Misunderstood My Commentary Completly. by lars (Score:2) Monday August 28 2000, @09:12AM
  • Re:You Misunderstood My Commentary Completly. by lars (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:13PM
  • Re:It ports with ease by Pathwalker (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:13AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by mosch (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:You should still use a proper debugger. by cduffy (Score:2) Monday August 28 2000, @10:37AM
  • You should still use a proper debugger. by cduffy (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:14AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by The Man (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:27AM
  • Codewarrior not as bad as it could be by Masem (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:56PM
  • Opposite is true as well by tolldog (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:06AM
  • Re:similar experience by MoNickels (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:09AM
  • Re:Ummm... gcc also breaks on that. by MalcolmT (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:36PM
  • Write portable code... by sheldon (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:26AM
  • Re:OFF TOPIC Re:Well, It's probably fair by Bradley (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:28AM
  • Does the choice compiler really matter... by Gsson (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:37AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by Goonie (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:50AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by Goonie (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:43AM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by Mike Buddha (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:11AM
  • OFF TOPIC Re:Well, It's probably fair by Mike Buddha (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:19AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Mike Buddha (Score:2) Sunday August 27 2000, @01:00AM
  • Re:Well, It's probably fair by Mike Buddha (Score:2) Sunday August 27 2000, @01:04AM
  • Re:Like it or lump it, it's necessary by Nick Mathewson (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:57AM
  • You Use What They Want..... by HomerJ (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @03:35AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by Keel (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:06AM
  • Walking to University 10 miles uphill both ways by swb (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:50AM
  • Re:similar experience by SoftwareJanitor (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:17AM
  • Re:similar experience by schnurble (Score:2) Sunday August 27 2000, @01:38AM
  • Re:similar experience by EricWright (Score:2) Monday August 28 2000, @01:40AM
  • Re:similar experience by EricWright (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:07AM
  • Re:Does the choice compiler really matter... by blaine (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:36AM
  • It's unfortunate.. however... by mindstrm (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:00AM
  • Oh wahh.. by mindstrm (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:06AM
  • Re:Okie, now for the ontopic posting by delmoi (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:39PM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by gmhowell (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:01AM
  • I was an intro CS TA for four semesters... by J.J. (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:54AM
  • Re:To answer Cliff and Yoda by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday August 28 2000, @05:12AM
  • Re:To answer Cliff and Yoda by Shotgun (Score:2) Sunday August 27 2000, @10:50AM
  • This isn't as bad as it sounds... by Rectal Prolapse (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:38PM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Starselbrg (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:33PM
  • Re:similar experience by civilizedINTENSITY (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:55AM
  • Re:similar experience by QuoteMstr (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:12AM
  • Re:been there - hated it. by QuoteMstr (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:07AM
  • Re:similar experience by QuoteMstr (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:16AM
  • Re:Hidden deals? by QuoteMstr (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:20AM
  • Re:similar experience by Master of Kode Fu (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:39PM
  • Testbeds and other software... by ^chewie (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:16AM
  • Re:similar experience by Cramer (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:33AM
  • Re:Another point to consider... by anonymous cowerd (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:16AM
  • Re:That's way the world works by EyesOfNostradamus (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:15AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Nexx (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:10AM
  • To answer Cliff and Yoda by An El Haqq (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:44AM
  • Re:Why schools pick an environment by Freedent (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:09AM
  • Because it's just gcc wrapped with a nice GUI by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @04:05AM
  • Offer a Choice of Languages, I did at CalTech by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:56PM
  • Thanks! I feel great. Tips on Earning Karma. by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:08PM
  • I archived #125 on my programming tips page by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @07:21PM
  • Do learn some things well by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @10:58PM
  • School Should Require Code to Work Anywhere by goingware (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:18AM
  • Re:You should still use a proper debugger. by mOdQuArK! (Score:2) Monday August 28 2000, @08:56AM
  • #ifdef anyone? by bartok (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:40PM
  • unfair to the ta by nehril (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:43AM
  • They didn't say you had to use it... by MrResistor (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:57AM
  • gcc newlines? by yerricde (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @05:21AM
  • Either talk to your TA or get over it... by RevAaron (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @06:26AM
  • With good reason by Oroborus (Score:2) Friday August 25 2000, @11:34PM
  • Yes. by istartedi (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @11:21AM
  • I was taught C and C++ with gcc, and it sucked by duffbeer703 (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:56AM
  • Codewarrior is pretty good by Fervent (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @09:53AM
  • Re:at entry level it shouldnt matter by jesterzog (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @02:07AM
  • Deal with Language, not environment or compilers. by mmThe1 (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @01:17AM
  • Re:Concepts vs language/compiler/os by liq-bin (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @12:09AM
  • Re:Cliff is a fool by S1mon_Jester (Score:2) Saturday August 26 2000, @08:07AM
  • by Wakko Warner (324) on Saturday August 26 2000, @12:04AM (#826489) Homepage Journal
    You're in college to learn the fundamentals of programming.

    It's easiest to teach the entire class by making sure everyone codes on the same platform, using the same development toolkit.

    If you already know how to code, by all means, petition the college to allow you to skip the intro courses. Later courses will allow you to program in whatever development environment you wish, in my experience.

    Freshman-level courses, though, NEED to be taught on a STANDARDIZED platform/environment, because it's hard enough to teach people to think like a programmer; it's even harder to teach them if they're not using the exact same frames of reference as you are.

    If you really want to skirt the rules, try installing CodeWarrior for Linux, programming your assignments there, and making sure they compile under the Windows version. Other than that, forget about it.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Re:Cliff is a fool (Score:3)

    by Bitscape (7378) on Saturday August 26 2000, @05:38AM (#826490) Homepage

    Judging by the comments here, it looks like there are a lot who have had similar experiences.

    Having been in a similar situation myself, I think the reason for the frustration goes beyond simple convenience (although that certainly would play a role).

    I'm guessing that if a lot of Linux users are like me, most of us did use DOS/Windows/[insert inferior platform of your choice] earlier in our hobby computing experience. Then, when we found something that was so much better, we thought, "Why haven't I been using this all along? It's so much better, does all the stuff I need it to do, all the source is available, AND it's FREE!" (as in beer, because upon initial introduction, we probably haven't quite yet learned the concept of free as in speech.)

    Then (speaking from personal experience here), one walks into an educational institution with the mindset of having discovered these great tools which cost nothing and blow the $100/copy commercial-ware out of the water (in some areas, but maybe not all). We soon discover that many in the organization -- especially the ones making the crucial decisions -- are simply NOT INTERESTED, despite all the advantages. This can be quite befuddling.

    After all, we managed to switch to what we think is a far superior solution. We took the time and effort to repartition our hard drives, read the HOWTOs, tweak the modelines in our XF86Config, recompile our kernel, and twiddle with the rc files to get everything perfect. And we are very pleased with the result! Therefore, we wonder why they seem too stupid and short-sighted to do the same?

    This is especially true if you believe that open source/free software is the way of the future. Who wants to be stuck learning how to train dinosaurs, when the dinosaurs will all be extinct in ten years?

    That said, I do believe that I personally learned more about writing portable code as a result of having been forced to make all my stuff also work under VC++. As one of the other commenters also mentioned, I also discovered to an even greater degree why I find it so much more pleasant to work under Linux. ;)


  • by Mike Buddha (10734) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:54PM (#826491)
    It sounds like you're not locked into actually using it for anything but a quick run-through at the end to make sure it compiles right.

    I know of no commercial developers who use g++ to develop on. It's just not practical. Like it or not, IDEs increase productivity, and that's why we use them. If these students are going to be professional programmers, they're going to be using IDEs their entire career. Why the hell shouldn't they be learning from the get go how they function?

    Any CS program that doesn't teach a student how to use and IDE is being negligent in their curriculum.
  • by r (13067) on Saturday August 26 2000, @04:00AM (#826492)
    absolutely right!

    having just ta'd intro to c++ last year, i can think of a miriad reasons for sticking to one commercial dev environment only - you don't have to worry about non-standard implementations of c++ (ie. "what do you mean my code can't work? it works just fine in my turbo c++ 0.39beta for dos!"), you don't have to worry about students using environment differences to cheat (ie. "what do you mean my code can't work?", again), you don't have to worry about usage differences (ie. "to insert a breakpoint hit F9, unless you're using xgdb in which case you hit C-space, or if you're using codewarrior, in which you right-click in the margin to the left of the line in the editor, or if you're using turbo c++ 0.39beta for dos..."), you can actually teach very environment-dependent uses like debugging tricks and project management, et cetera, et cetera... :)

    but, we've always made a point of allowing people to use unix tools if they want to. it makes us very happy if someone asks to do that - it usually means they know what they're doing and they'll be a good student. :)
  • by Snard (61584) <.mike.shawaluk. .at. .gmail.com.> on Saturday August 26 2000, @01:23AM (#826493) Homepage
    A few people have mentioned instructors being overjoyed or at least pleased that some of their students have prior programming knowledge in their entry level classes, but this brings up another question: if you've already been using vi and g++ for some time, perhaps you'd be able to test out of the class and free up some time on your schedule (or take another elective, or whatever else suits you). Many colleges will let you test out of a class within the first week or so.

    And to address another point that was mentioned in a few peoples' posts, the college where my son will be attending has a very strict policy on students' computers in their dorm rooms which are connected to the ResNet. To quote from their FAQ:

    Q: Can I run Linux, Unix, BeOS, or any other operating systems that aren't listed on the minimum configuration list?

    A: No, this network is not set up to handle the types of operating systems. You will not be allowed to get an account if you plan to run one of these operating systems on the network. Your account may be revoked and disciplinary action may be taken if you are running an unsupported OS.
    Their "minimum configuration list" for PC's includes Win95/98, NT 4.0, and tentative approval for Win2K after May 2000 (I guess they haven't updated that page in a while) This, of course, is a whole 'nother can of worms, that's probably been discussed in previous topics.
  • by Maurice (114520) on Saturday August 26 2000, @05:50AM (#826494)
    In my uni they just hire a bunch of upper level undergrads to grade the assignments for intro CS classes (the ones with lots of people). They pay them like $7/hour and free pizza during all-night grading sessions. Sometimes you just demo your program to the consultant, in the computer lab assigned for the class. Such a demo is good because then you have no excuse for it not working.
    FYI for the intro CS class they use CodeWarrior here too, but for other CS classes it's either Visual Studio or gcc/g++ and I've has classes where YOU PICK YOUR LANGUAGE OF CHOICE! How cool is that.
  • by MaestroSartori (146297) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:29PM (#826495)
    Since it is an entry-level course, I think its a perfectly valid way to teach programming - all the class organisers are trying to do is to keep a level playing field, as well as to encourage co-operation (note to students: NOT plagarism!!! ;o).
    Things at this level are all about getting the basics in place, and forcing one platform onto all students is one of the best ways of making sure that knowledge assumed by later classes is definitely given in the early ones. Oh, and it makes the lecturer's job easier if you have to submit code for marking if he can load all code into one app instead of having to go to different machines or reboot into a different OS just to check one student's work. Do what I did - code the uni stuff the way they want it, then redo it in your preferred environment (or indeed language - I converted stuff from my Java classes into C++).
  • by Snocone (158524) on Saturday August 26 2000, @06:28AM (#826496) Homepage
    Poster, what this really means is the TA, much less the lecturer, is NOT EVEN LOOKING AT your code to start with.

    As a former TA speaking here: No fucking shit. You think the TA gives a toss about your worthless self? It is to laugh. Ho ho! The TA is trying to get through school just like you, and wants to put in the least possible effort for the money. Like, duh.

    You are being deprived of informed criticism of your work by a competent and skilled instructor/authority beyond your own judgement.

    If you don't understand something, then come ask about it in office hours. If you don't, then I assume you figured it out and I give you perfect marks, that's far easier than actually bothering to figure out if you have a clue or what.

    I've got better things to do, like my own work, drinking beer, and shagging all the little hotties in the class. (Note to prospective TAs: Your school probably has some equivalent of mine's CMPT 100, "Introduction to BASIC programming for Business Students". It is full of 18 year old wannabe MBA hotties with no fucking clue whatsoever who look up to you as second only to God. Can you say "target-rich environment"? And this nincompoop thinks I give a flying fuck about whether some geeky frosh can write code or what. Hah!)
  • by mu_cow (168630) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:43PM (#826497)

    Often education is much more about life skills than people think. At some point, most people have complained to their teachers that what they are learning is pointless. The answer always comes back that we are not just learning the material but also study skills. In the work I have done I have not learnt much about computers but I have learnt a lot about working for people (they never know what they want and they force you to do stupid things). If you work for people, they may force you to work in their standard environment. They may force you to use a commenting style you are not used to. They may make you use libraries that you do not like. The teacher here, while making life easier for himself is mirroring what some companies will do. Now is the time you have to learn to be flexible, even if you think the people in charge are wrong.

  • by Harik (4023) <Harik@chaos.ao.net> on Friday August 25 2000, @11:34PM (#826498)
    The fact is, there's some good reasons to do it. For one, it's exposure to multiple environments. (And that's a good thing, despite what the anti-anything-but-linux trolls will tell you) The world isn't linux centric, nor is it M$ centric. Knowing both is really important. Even if you don't intend to develop with CodeWarrior You'll probably run into code written in it that you'll need to maintain/contribute to. ESPECIALLY in entry-level/intern programming positions. I'm a unix admin/developer and i still end up working with M$ C (and various other development environments) on a fairly frequent basis.

    Secondly: It's a kickstart to learning the language. I wouldn't reccommend attempting to map codewarrior quirks to gnu quirks in your first few programs, especially when you're trying to learn.

    Lastly, to actually LEARN you can always develop on the unix boxes and port it to codewarrior. That's valuable practical experience in writing portable code.

    And tell the TA you're doing it, too.

    --Dan

  • by werdna (39029) on Saturday August 26 2000, @01:45AM (#826499) Homepage Journal
    I can think of many reasons why I would require students to use a single environment, particularly when teaching an OO language. Some of these include:

    (1) so the professor can distribute lines of code and libraries for all to use in projects;

    (2) to assure that code may be tested directly and automatically against testbed code; (the single worst part of graduate school for me, was the process of grading computer programs);

    (3) to facilitate group programming projects.
  • Former TA (Score:4)

    by digitalbeing (84400) on Saturday August 26 2000, @12:24AM (#826500) Homepage
    In the first- and second-year CS courses I TAed
    (waaaaay back in the Dark Ages when Pascal was standard), the reasons we specified the environment included:

    1) Availability of lab resources. Often times the computer lab is only going to have one type of machine with a limited selection of development environments for the various classes. Today this is less of an issue, because most students will have their own computers (further increasing their desire to use a custom platform).

    2) Compatibility. Besides basic issues with the compiler and standard libraries, we often provided completely or partially implemented code in the course of assignments, and could only afford to make sure that it worked on the specified platform. Imagine if you were a student trying to get an assignment working and discovered there was a bug in the code provided with the assignment when compiled in your environment. Clearly we had to define this
    behavior as "at your own risk".

    3) Proprietary native interfaces. In the very introductory class, we were using Pascal on Macs, and provided native widget libraries so the students could create more visually interesting programs than println('hello world'). Today of course there are cross-platform alternatives.

    4) Mechanical concerns. As others have pointed out, testing submitted programs generally involves both compiling (to make sure there are no warnings) and executing them to evaluate that the output is correct. In classes of up to 200 students, no way can you be prepared to do that on 4 systems.

    5) Support. TAs could not necessarily be expected to help with compiler or dev environment issues for more than one platform.

    Today students have the luxury of a well standardized C++, that allows you to write compliant code that will compile under g++,
    msvc++, or one of the edison design group
    based compilers, not to mention Java. Nonetheless, in the context of a particular course I would still expect to see a pretty standardized configuration designated as the target platform for assignments.

    That being said, advanced students could and
    can still always follow whatever development process they wanted "at their own risk". Just don't expect your TA to bail you out if you run in to trouble!
  • by goingware (85213) on Saturday August 26 2000, @02:39AM (#826501) Homepage
    I heartily agree.

    I'd further like to say that I think everyone should spend less time concentrating on learning specific API's in great detail, and instead focus on improving your core skills and fundamental understanding of programming.

    I used to spend a lot of time learning API's (bought every volume of Inside Macintosh as they came out, and when I was just starting out and broke and hungry, used to read them in the bookstore before I could afford to buy them).

    I prided myself on knowing all the little bugs and intricacies of the MacOS so I could just know to code around an OS bug without having to research why my code didn't work. I got so good that I was hired as an OS engineer at Apple where I concentrated on debugging the MacOS system software with MacsBug (a machine level debugger) - I had the MacOS source code at my disposal but that usually didn't help when I was visiting a tester's cubicle to diagnose a machine with a hard-to-reproduce crash.

    Then I moved to the BeOS, shipped a product and wrote a lot of code but got fed up with their lack of commitment to their developers. And without getting paid to write BeOS code, I never could keep up with the BeOS API's I wanted to work with, like the new Media Kit (which I do know enough about to say it is pretty cool).

    A couple years back I stopped spending much time learning and mostly just cranked out routine code. I felt I didn't want to learn anymore because, as I would sometimes say:

    I feel that if I have to learn another API my head will surely explode.
    Ever since I read C++ Answers from Bjarne Stroustrup [slashdot.org] I got the gumption to start learning again. What I decided to do was go back to learning the basics.

    I read Scott Meyers' Effective C++ [fatbrain.com] and More Effective C++ [fatbrain.com] and as I read through each item I inspected my program top to bottom and applied the advice to it (thus fixing a lot of bugs).

    I also bought Bjarne Stroustrup's The C++ Programming Language: Special Edition [fatbrain.com] (I recommend the special edition to professional programmers).

    I started reading the newsgroups comp.lang.c++ [comp.lang.c], comp.lang.c++.moderated [lang.c.moderated] and comp.std.c++ [comp.std.c] and posting questions there - in one case I found a construction on the very edge of the C++ standard and as a result of a compiler bug managed to instantiate an object of an abstract base class - its pure virtual function had a nil pointer in the vtbl and my program would crash when this function was called. An engineer from the compiler vendor read my post on the newsgroup, agreed that it was a bug that his product would compile my code, and logged a bug.

    I didn't used to use the Standard Template Library very much at all. I had read too many mailing list and newsgroup postings from people whose code wouldn't compile when they changed platforms.

    But I figured that by now compilers must have matured enough I could reasonably start trying out the STL. I bought STL Tutorial and Reference Guide [fatbrain.com] by Musser and Stepanov and actually only read a little bit of it before I realized that the STL is actually really easy to use (the API is very simple and uniform), so if you know only a very little bit you can go a very long way.

    In part because of challenging myself I became overwhelmed with programming stuckness as discussed in Overcomming Programmer's Block? [slashdot.org] (sic) and I suppose grew a little bit by taking a week off without pay to rest, contemplate, study and take a broader view of architectural issues.

    One thing that helped quite a bit was learning about Extreme Programming [c2.com].

    These things have all had direct payoff in my code, both in making my code quicker to write, easier to debug, easier to make my classes more reusable within the one program I've been writing the last few months, and I'm pretty sure more likely to make some of the code I've written reusable in most any program in the future.

    It's also made it a lot more pleasant.

    But don't listen to the headhunters [goingware.com] - what they're looking for is "skill sets" and industry buzzwords (COM, COM+, DCOM, TCP/IP, Visual C++, ASP, SQL, device drivers, CORBA, Unix internals, Java, Perl, PHP, JSP) - I get recruiter calls looking for all kinds of acronyms, most of which I don't mention anywhere on my resume.

    Even I advise listing every skill keyword you can legimately claim on your online resume in Market Yourself - Tips for High-Tech Consultants [goingware.com] - but while listing skillsets may be a valuable jobhunting tool in your resume, acquiring them should not be your focus.

    BTW, when someone asks me whether they should learn Java or C++, I usually advise beginners to learn Java as it's easier to get something working reliably without crashing, but emphasize they should learn both languages as well as at least one kind of assembly code. I stress that it's important to learn both C++ and Java well enough to understand the strengths and weaknesses of each (pop quiz - why does Optimizeit [optimizeit.com] claim to remove memory leaks from Java programs, when Java is a garbage collected language?).

    Most new programmers these days are most concerned with which language will make them the most money the fastest. I tell them that they won't go anywhere until they can pick up any new programming language as a matter of course and have at least a couple under their belt.

    I've got bad news for you neophytes - friends, just knowing a programming language doesn't win you very much in the work world, you have to understand the concepts and how to apply them, and you have to know how to apply them in a production environment, working in a business under pressure, shipping working products and dealing with people who don't understand anything of substance about computers.

    Your focus should be on acquiring skills that will be applicable to any program you write. You should just learn enough of a skill or tool to get the job done and then leave it. Take with you what can be applied anywhere.

    BTW - learning the fundamentals and not getting too specialized enables you to develop for any platform, as I do - you can see this from my homepage [goingware.com]. (Perhaps one reason why I prefer understanding the fundamentals is that my degree is in Physics, and I've always wanted to understand things at a fundamental level - Quantum Mechanics, Particle Physics, Cosmology and so on.)

    One final word of advice - read The Forum on Risks to the Public in Computers and Related Systems [ncl.ac.uk]. It's often entertaining and funny, occassionally tragic, usually insightful and will make you a more responsible programmer and a wiser computer user. You'll certainly learn to avoid using computers for anything of real importance and take extra caution to protect yourself when you choose to do so.

  • by Zordak (123132) on Saturday August 26 2000, @08:18AM (#826502) Homepage Journal
    >>Things at this level are all about getting the basics in place

    Which is why I would think that the standard should be ANSI C/C++. That way you are guaranteed to have the solid foundation, and if you later move on to fancy IDE's with extensions, it doesn't matter which one you (or your Prof. or boss) choose, because your knowledge will translate into that environment. If that environment has nice extensions and handy non-ANSI classes and such, you'll be ablt to appreciate those better. For instance, I use C++ Builder at work, and it's nice to use AnsiString, which has features like an overloaded "=" operator, but when I recently worked on a demo project that needed cross-platform compatible code, it was good to still know how to use strcpy with char *'s.

    By the way, I had a class like this too. We were told that our code had to compile in Borland C++ 4, and to submit our source code and program to the grader. It turned out the grader was running a Solaris box, so he just pulled the source files out, discarded all of the IDE bloatware, and compiled with gcc. My point is, since it was all standard console-type code, it didn't matter how we developed it. Make ANSI your class's standard (that's why it's a standard), have the students submit the ASCII source code, and then let the TA/Prof compile it in whatever combination of environment and OS they please.

    Do not teach Confucius to write Characters
  • Cliff is a fool (Score:5)

    by lars (72) on Saturday August 26 2000, @12:27AM (#826503)
    Does the school have Windows machines with Code Warrior on them that you can use to compile your assignments? If so, I don't understand what the big deal is. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the TA's not to want to bother fudging around with code to get it to compile on the platform they're using. If they don't provide the environment on machines at school, and expect you to go out and purchase your own box which runs Windows, then maybe I'd complain. (Although apparently many schools in the US expect students to purchase their own computers and do everything at home; here, the labs on campus provide all the facilities you need for your courses. In this case you may have no choice, but see the texbook analogy below.) But otherwise, who cares?

    Most CS courses here are the same way. If your code doesn't compile on the platform being used (often g++ on Unix), tough. Sometimes the software needed isn't available on Windows, so students who use Windows at home have no choice but to use the school's Unix facilities. And even if you're using Linux, your code is not guaranteed to compile on their system - differences between gcc versions, etc. may cause problems. If your code doesn't compile, tough - it fails the automated testing, and you lose a bunch of marks. Presumably if there's a problem the TA's are nice enough to try and fix code that doesn't work, and/or assign some marks, but I don't see what's wrong with expecting students to test their code on the school's systems before submitting it.

    This is no different than being forced to do assignment questions out of a $100 textbook, even if you really don't need the textbook to learn the course material. This happens ALL THE TIME. You most likely buy the textbook anyway, and use it, but you can also just find a copy in a library or borrow from a friend. Likewise, in this case, if you don't want to buy Windows, you can either find a public workstation (presumably your University has some), or find a friend who runs Windows and compile on their system. How hard is that?

    Ok, I'm on a bit of a roll here now. I'll probably get moderated down for this, but I don't even understand why Slashdot would post this question. Actually, the question is a good one; he merely is asking a technical question. It's Cliff's attempt to turn it the discussion into something political with his commentary that's stupid. Oh, poor Linux user! The horror of having to use Windows for 2 minutes to verify that the code compiles and runs on it (assuming they're not using features or libraries specific to CodeWarrior, which for an entry-level C++ course I would assume they're not)! I know we're Linux zealots, but why can't some people in this community just accept the fact that NOT EVERYONE USES LINUX, and there are going to be occasions when you're FORCED TO USE WINDOWS (or Macs, or...) For god's sake, stop WHINING and being offended and deal with it!
  • by Taco Cowboy (5327) on Saturday August 26 2000, @12:29AM (#826504)


    "When all you have is a hammer, everything
    else look like nails."

    The axiom above is true for many real life situation, including programming.

    If you are limited to only VB or G++ or vi or whatever, make the BEST of it.

    After all, you are in the class to LEARN something, might as well do you best LEARNING THE PROPER WAY TO DO THINGS RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

    VB or vi or G++ or whatever are just tools. You do not have to be attached to ONE SPECIFIC TOOL. What is MOST important is the SKILL TO CREATE, and that skill should NEVER be limited to any specific tool. You can "graduate" from using M$ stuffs, but as long as you have that skill to create newer and better things, you can always migrate to OTHER KINDS of tools available.

    Hope all of you can glean the skill to create despite the obstacles the power-that-be want to throw at you.

  • When I was a TA, many CS projects in the subjects I taught had the testing automated (Perl is a marvellous thing . . .). Testing was performed on a Solaris machine using gcc, and it was the student's responsibility to write code that worked correctly in this environment.

    Of course, many students wrote their code in (insert favourite moronic Windows IDE here), and just copied the code directly across to the Solaris box, and submitted without even checking to make sure that the program compiled. Many times, the program failed to work, and the students were marked down regardless of their protests of "but it worked at home". How are we supposed to know whether it worked at home or not? In any case, a little bit of investigation usually showed that the program had a combination of bugs that gcc/glibc/Solaris trigged but DroolIDE's compiler environment didn't.

    If you have an alternative policy that is even slightly practical for a class with 800-odd students, I'd sure like to hear it!

    In any case, it's not going to hurt you to be exposed to a different programming environment. At worst, you'll know *why* Windows programming is as horrible as Slashdotters often regard it :)

  • by earlytime (15364) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:53PM (#826506) Homepage
    I can speak from experience on this one. I took an intro to c++ class a few years ago, and they were using borland c++. Rather than pay $90 at the bookstore, and install windows on my machine, I just used gcc.
    Everything worked flawlessly until the final. I had a 98 average in the class, but the final exam was to take a program and modify it. Well wouldn't ya know it, the stoopid program wouldn't compile under gcc, cuz of a few function calls depended on a library that was different in gcc than it was on borland.
    So being the procrastinator that i am, i found this out the night before the final was due, and by 8 the next morning i had the program compiling/running with gcc. It was due at 10. So I had to hand my port to gcc, but of course i got squat on the final, and my final grade ended up being a b. sucks huh??
    the moral of the story is, yes there are valid reasons for a class to require a consistent work environment. This is a prime example, If i'd used the borland thing, i wouldn't have had that problem, but i'd be out 90 bucks and i'd have to have used windows. I'll take the B. ;-)

  • similar experience (Score:5)

    by xavii (92017) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:24PM (#826507)
    i was in almost the same exact class. the teacher explained that everyone should use Visual Studio 6, because that is what is provided by the school.

    All i had to do was raise my hand and ask if i could use vi and g++ on my personal linux box and he was almost overcome with joy, i actually had previous knowledge.

    After i asked, the teacher had to explain what vi, g++ and linux was to the class. Seems a lot more people are coming into computers for money and not the love of the game.

    just ask if you can, usually they are flexible for students who actually have some original thinking in their skulls. Also, on the plus side, they will probably remember you and possibly favor you for taking a unique approach to the first problem of the class.

    xavii aka bob
  • by nullity (115966) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:29PM (#826508) Homepage
    Its not about tech support. If that's all the problem was schools wouldn't care too much. The problem is really cross-platform/compiler compatibility. As sad as it may be...something written for g++ *might not* work on Code Warrior for Windows, or Visual C++. This is less of a problem with C compilers, but still an issue. Your TA needs to be able to compile whatever it is you wrote, and so they pick one platform they will use.

    For example, at my school they recommend a particular compiler, and ask everyone to use it (under the Macintosh, since that's what dorm clusters have)...for lower level C/C++ classes. At higher levels they reccomend gcc/g++. But the issue is that you really should be running the same compiler that your TA/TF is, or the results will be somewhat unpredictable. You could probably get by, but its always a major risk. And if it doesn't work on their machine, you can't just say "well it worked on mine" because you were using an officially non-kosher compiler to test.

    In contrast, Java classes (where most compilers are relatively conformant) encourage the use of whatever compiler you want. They say it might be wise to test on the "target" compiler (JDK 1.2/3 on Solaris), but that its not necessarily "required".

    My advice is develop at home - just make DARN SURE you test it thorougly on the foreign compiler and fix all compiler errors before submitting. (and you probably will have some)
  • by wmoyes (215662) on Friday August 25 2000, @11:32PM (#826509)
    I have 24 credits left until I graduate, and I have been dealing with this through my entire collage carrier. The best option is to just deal with it.

    1) You need to learn how to LEARN TO USE new tools. If you think what you have is bad, I took a course that required all programs to be written using MFC and Visual C++. Now that was a nightmare (spend 80% of the time trying to find what you need in the docs, 10% actually writing code, and 10% debugging). What made the class even more fun it was my Operating Systems class where we did some basic networking, threading, and deadlock avoidance.

    2) You will always have employers asking you to develop using 'Y' platform (X is an overused buzzword). Even though we all know that practically any development environment can be coerced into making any program, you have to do it the way they want it, or you will quickly be looking for another job.

    I don't mean to be a pessimist, but for your own sake, avoid starting any type of confrontation. By the way did you ask the professor on the first day of class? In my classes we usually get about 3-4 question on this very topic the first day.

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