Real to Offer Open Source Windows Media for Linux

cpugeniusmv writes to tell us News.com is reporting that RealNetworks plans to release an open source method to allow Linux users to play Windows Media files. Currently Linux users are able to play the two main Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they install closed-source modules. The ability to launch this initiative comes from a recent licensing deal between RealNetworks and Microsoft and the antitrust settlement against Microsoft.

Satan:

"Brrr, it's getting chilly!"

Re:Satan:

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is how I've aways thought it worked.

Unfortunately you _are_ wrong. Case point: Go to http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/ [mp3licensing.com] and behold the royalty rates for a "decoder". Note that this patent is generally ignored but some more careful distributions like Ubuntu do not support mp3 playback out-of-the-box for that very reason.
I assume your misunderstanding is the result of the situation with the LZH-algorithm, or in practical terms, the GIF format. Thos, now expired patents only covered the LZH encoding not decoding, hence one could make, use and distribute a decoder but not an encoder. However this was just the special situation with regard to these 2 patents covering this particular algorithm, i.e. they were luckily (from the patent holder's point of view, unluckily) worded in such a way that they only covered the encoder.

Nota bene: Yes, there were indeed two patents covering exactly the same algorithm, one was held in its latter days by Unisys and was the more notorious one due to Unisys' active enforcement. The other one was held by IBM and just recently expired but IBM never actively enforced it (It would've probably fallen due to prior art anyway but it does illustrate the utter stupidity of the USPTO specifically and the patent system, especially with regard to software, generally).

Re:Satan:

Actually, I personaly doubt they will release it using GPL, in whatever incarnation of the license. They are more likely to get OSI approval for an open source license of their own, just like SUN and IBM did. And considering the stakes here, the approval (or not) should be handled by the OSI board as high priority.

It's going into Helix Player, which is multilicensed [helixcommunity.org]. The two open source licenses it currently supports are the GPL and RPSL, their own OSI-approved license. You can also license it under a commercial license. The question is will they continue licensing Helix in this manner? Will they stop support for GPL? Or will they make the Windows Media Support a separate plugin that's not part of Helix and available under RPSL? I agree with you in that I think the last scenario is the most likely, IMHO.

Too little, too late...

This comes right on the heels of having a fairly complete wmv9 decoder functioning in ffmpeg.

Bastards... I don't want their crap anyway

That's really...

(buffering... buffering)... gr....(buffering...buffering)..eat new (buffering)s.

...err

Is this god news or not... It could be a trojan horse ...(in the Greeks bearing gifts sense...not script kiddie sense)

Re:...err

It could be a trojan horse ...(in the Greeks bearing gifts sense...not script kiddie sense)

Just a note, the original Trojan horse was a gift bearing Greeks, not the other way around :)

Re:...err

the original Trojan horse was a gift bearing Greeks, not the other way around :)

It was Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks. And if a few of those Greeks was carring presents, say birthday presents to give to somebody after the battle or something, then it would be Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks bearing gifts.

Re:...err

It was Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks. And if a few of those Greeks was carring presents, say birthday presents to give to somebody after the battle or something, then it would be Greeks bearing a gift bearing Greeks bearing gifts.

And if instead of a horse they had built large wooden bears, it would be Greeks gifting bears.

Plus, with the proclivity of Greeks to be naked, you could end up with:
Greeks gifting bears bearing Greeks being bare bearing gifts.

My head hurts now. But "What if we build a large wooden badger..." will be stuck in my mind all day, at least that's a plus.

already there?

Can't mplayer already do this?

Re:already there?

Yes, but I think the legality of the way mplayer does it is questionable since it uses Windows DLLs directly. It sounds like this is going to be completely separate code written by Real.

I do love mplayer though.

Re:already there?

Yes, but many people would have to agree that the binary codecs MPlayer supports really suck compared to the native ones. Besides, DLLs (common usage) only work on x86 processors, yet MPlayer is cross platform (so is Helix), so that doesn't solve the problem completely.

Re:already there?

When Redhat or Suse ship their distro, they are not allowed to include the DLLs. The location you downloaded them from is not allowed to distribute the DLLs. You are not allowed to download the DLLs. It has not stopped me from doing it for xine, mplayer, etc., doing this is in violation of copyright. What Real is doing is providing a LEGAL way of acquiring these codecs.

Re:already there?

Actually, the latest ffmpeg can play WMV3, no windows dlls needed.

You will need to check out the latest ffmpeg svn and compile it tho.

alternative

Among other things, does this mean that Real Alternative [codecguide.com] will soon be legitimate?

It's about time...

this was available. I wonder how well they will keep up with the ever changing codecs?

False Summary

Currently Linux users are able to play the two main Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they install closed-source modules...

Totally false. ffmpeg / mplayer / vlc etc. can all decode WMV files *natively* using the ffmpeg libavcoded libraries.

The problem is not decoding the files, that is trivial. The problem is dealing with the copy protection. Another open source library is not going to help this, because it will still never be allowed to decrypt the copy-protected files.

Re:False Summary

Totally false. ffmpeg / mplayer / vlc etc. can all decode WMV files *natively* using the ffmpeg libavcoded libraries.

Well, mostly. ffmpeg can decode WMV 7/8/9 and WMA 7/8. There is no decoder for WMA Pro, WMA voice, or WMA lossless. WMV8 decoding has bugs and may drop certain keyframes.

Licencing issues...

The article says that the code will be part of the Helix player, and that Suse will come with it. But it fails to mention if one can redistribute the codecs, or if other engines such as Xine or GStreamer will be able to use it.

Aside from that, is WMA such an issue? I mean, now we got flash video players that are platform agnostic...

Re:Licencing issues...

The last time I tried to download Flash for Windows the license was really obscene. Among other things it gave Adobe the right to audit my computers and also came with a list of devices and OSs that it was not to be used with including Windows MCE. These are just nuggets among something like 7-9 pages of legelese. A few pages in I just gave up and decided I didn't really need the latest Flash that bad.

That'll be great

For 20 minutes before Microsoft break the spec.

(You need 4 years of engineering graduate school to acquire this level of cynicism folks.)

I've been very impressed with Real's approach of late (ever since Helix, really, although they did some good things before then). They are showing a very cooperative attitude - enough to overcome any ill will I might have felt towards them - and I hope that they get a warm reception for this contribution that encourages them to embrace the open source/free software community further.

I do wonder though if any of this open source love is being pushed by the BBC? They are after all proabbly one of the biggest single drivers of Real installations and have demonstrated in the past their ability to push Real to change their stance.

I'm thinking particuarly of the fact that the BBC cancelled it's Ogg testing aboiut the same time that the whole Helix thing started - could Real opening up a bit in return for no migration to open source or free software codecs have been the price?

Re:That'll be great

Possibly. I just wish that they wouldn't do everything possible to make their primary piece of software (at least by downloads) so obnoxious.

1) Try to instruct a novice user to find and download the free version on their website. Not an easy task but doable.

2) Try to install it without it inserting stuff into Windows startup - I use Startup Control Panel but not everyone is so lucky.

3) Try to remove the messages/popups etc. from a standard installation - again, not for the novice.

I applaud any attempt at open-sourcing software but I would worry about the quality of the code if their primary app is in this much of a mess.

Re:That'll be great

1) Try to instruct a novice user to find and download the free version on their website. Not an easy task but doable.

This certainly used to be a massive problem (the easiest way was in fact to use the link provided by the BBC which went directly too it) but these days their download page [real.com] (the one you get to by clicking real player on the front page) outlines your options pretty clearly.

2) Try to install it without it inserting stuff into Windows startup - I use Startup Control Panel but not everyone is so lucky.

Not really a problem when installing on Linux, so I can't help you there. Windows users should be used to it by now from WMParasite anyway. Maybe someone who has installed a more recent version than you have can provide some insight.

3) Try to remove the messages/popups etc. from a standard installation - again, not for the novice.

Last time I ran Real Player on Windows that just involved changing the settings in the options tab. Now, i'll not overestimate the technical ability of most users, but unless things have changed it wasn't a lot harder than grasping the principle of how to turn your computer on.

Re:That'll be great

The WMV3/VC-1 specification is formal and out there and is going to be used on Bluray/HD-DVD. They aren't likely to break compatibility willy nilly, not in the video profiles people care about anyway.

can only be a good thing

Having _open source_ versions of these codecs means that lots of other FOSS can make use of them, not just RealPlayer/HelixPlayer.

Its small victories like this that make the whole litigation against monopolists like Microsoft worthwhile. Sure the billions in payoffs are great, but what really, really helps advance the field is the opening up of proprietary formats and protocols.

It also means that those of us who want to run Linux on something other than a PeeCee are not left out in the cold, and makes possible native alternatives for other less popular operating systems -- Solaris, HPUX, NetBSD, etc.

Fantastic - but what is bringing the change?

This is very good news! First, Intel supporting drivers for their on-board graphic chips. Then this.

What is the cause the latest? The fact that Google videos and YouTube are going to flash, rather than Realmedia format, in order to reach all audiences?

I am amazed that the tiny percentage of linux desktops is starting to matter. I would welcome any insight into why it is so.

ffmpeg already have this in the works!

The guys behind the ffmpeg/libavcodec implementation which mplayer, xine and VLC and a whole bunch of a/v media apps in Linux already make use of, already have a working and pretty good WMV3 (WMV v9 Video) implementation in CVS. Infact it'll probably trickle into distro's before the end of the year.

Yeah so, move along... nothing to see here.

A good start

To me this is certainly encouraging news, I use Real Player on my Sun and x86 Linux boxen quite often. Now let's get them to take the next step and include a DVD player that will play ACSS/CSS disks.

What about the streaming protocol

Does this (or any other open source stuff such as mplayer) cover whatever protocol is used by the microsoft server for streaming windows media cotent? (whatever it is)

Being able to play windows media streams is just as usefull as being able to play windows media files on a disk or web url or etc.

Clapping

As soon as I buffer my sound clip of clapping I'll try and join in.

Dear RealPlayer,

Please open up your own format first before going and opening up other peoples' formats. Windows Media is already easy enough to play most anywhere. Streaming (or even non-streaming) RM is a pain to convert to another format - and most of the downloadable converters require you to have RealPlayer itself already installed (so it can use the DLLs). This is as much a "solution" as Captive NTFS, and it doesn't work on platforms other than x86/Windows.

(My underlying complaint is that you don't have a half-recent version for Windows Mobile. I've tried to convert these to WMV but it doesn't work well. Releasing a WM5 player - or even a J2ME player - would shut me up for now, but your real problem is you have the obscurest, proprietariest file format ever.)

Re:Dear RealPlayer,

Mod parent up. I won't be shut up, by the way -- every single RealPlayer I've ever had the misfortune to play with has been nothing but pain. Windows version I'd heard described as "behaves like a virus" by my most MS-loving, proprietary-loving technology whores -- and this was before we had a word for "spyware". Difficult to uninstall, a pain to live with. Linux users had to deal with truly ancient versions, so while there were players and plugins which used the RealPlayer DLLs (.so's), and while RealPlayer itself was distributed under package management (so not much chance of spyware if I don't run it), it was compiled with a truly ancient version of gcc, and thus wouldn't work with any of those things. So I ended up having to run it anyway...

And while most players let you have a fairly big buffer, RealPlayer sounded staticy, like bad radio reception. I suspect it had some clever way for dropping quality, but I shouldn't have needed that with my connection -- and yet, it still spent half the time buffering.

CarTalk is a humorous radio show which answers automotive questions, half-seriously, you never know if they're giving you good advice or just messing with you. They switched from RealPlayer several years ago, because as amazing as it seemed (even to them!), RealPlayer managed to be significantly worse than Windows Media Player -- Microsoft did far, far better than them by being almost mediocre.

If Real wants to gain respect, then yes, they should open their own format. We don't need all the source code, just the codecs, thanks.

If Real wants to survive as a business, they should drop the farce and just start selling their spyware directly to botnet controllers and peddlers of animated cursors.

By the way, whoever suggested that Flash has replaced Real as the format that does copy protection... Flash may not be as open as we'd like for playing, but it's easy enough to rip the video out of it. Or at least, I've done that with audio -- pulled an ordinary mp3 file out of a Flash presentation. With Real, you have to use the Analog Hole, not that it's that bad -- the sound quality sucks so much that encoding it as a 56-bit mp3 wouldn't hurt.

Re:Helix Player?

The Helix Player can use those codecs, but it doesn't come with those codecs. When you download the open source Helix Player, all you are getting are the open source codecs which does not include the real formats. If you download the closed sourced Real Player for Linux, you are getting a closed source Helix Player which includes all the closed source real formats. Also this player is crap and plays Real files and MP3 files so slowly that my machine skips every 3 to 7 seconds when player Real files, and can't refresh the player while playing an MP3. MPlayer using Real's codecs does not have this problem at all. Also the RealPlayer for Linux can't play older formats, while MPlayer using Real's Codec's can.

no thanks. (bombing on Real.)

*skip unless u want to hear my negative opinions on Real.

I have no time to read an article about Real networks, but i will take the time to state how much i dislike it.
Real media has been one of the most annoying web technologies since it came out. For instance: trying to sneak in lame apps and silly toolbars during the install. Trying to hi-jack file permissions.. Winamp has always delivered better quality, free and less annoying content.
It is just about worthless as a media player when compared to VLC [videolan.org] or any number of other players.
The only thing Real had going was content protection,.. but now streaming with flash (youtube, pornotube, google.video, ect.) is cake so they do not even have that. I can see why they would be trying to give the app to anybody who will take it.

the last place i want to see it is in a linux distro.

hrm... what else.. it's ugly & stinks too! /end rant

AMD64

Hopefully this will mean I can play windows media files without having to log in to a 32 bit chroot now.

Real Fan

I dont understand 'Real Player is bad/evil/crap' rant. I have used it in it's prime time. And stopped after Windows media 7 or so. But moving to linux since 2002, I havent seen a legit media player on linux that installs in one step and plays audio and vedio without digging into configuration files etc. I ovten use real player on linux and pleased to say that it embeds into the firefox without a problem.

FOSS franatics may scoff. Dont flame me if you use Flash or Java. It might not be kosher according to FOSS puritans, but it is a linux based commercial product. And there needs to be more of it. As far as I am concerned Real has redeemed it's sins by providing me a linux distribution. I openly admit that I am a fan. I am a fan because real sees value in linux support. Where is quicktime, iTunes, photoshop? Apple wont touch linux and I wont start about MS. Linux needs _some_ commercially successful products to gain a wider acceptance.

If a software is crap people will not use it, but it doesnot mean that their existance is a bane.

grew up

I'm sick of those unconstructive comments from people who have no clue. I agree that Real had an approach to Windows computing that fitted perfectly with the trend, bloatware and spyware, but to anybody who actually do not use Windows, Real as been more good than bad. Their Mac and Linux players, which I use, have nothing to do with the Windows offering, they are nice clean and effective little application that do their job well and nothing else. The only thing missing really is a playlist. As for the buffering joke, I watch and listen BBC program, French national TV program and a lot of other music related streams and it always delivers a adequate experience, much better than any WMa/v or Quicktime. If people don't understand that offering a legal way to play content is what Linux need to get accepted, nothing can be done really. I know Open Source implementation are out there, but they are usually enough in the gray area (especilly in the US) that distro can't ship them. If SuSE, which is already my distro of choice, since it can play mp3 out of the box through a clever integration with the Helix software. can ship a distro that plays mp3, wma, Real and flash 9 out of the box, they have a killer. I mean Automatix and easyubuntu are nice, but you have to know about it, and chances are that most new users don't (as most people don't know you don't have to use IE, MSN messenger, etc.)

Missing Features

FTA

"... Duchmann said in an interview here. However, the software [Linux version] won't support digital rights management available with Windows, he added."

How come only the Windows version gets all the good features?

yeah up mplayer?

http://mplayerhq.hu/ [mplayerhq.hu] This plays everything already. Why would I want another bulky player from Real...?

It's only a stopgap measure...

While I think that having F/OSS support for more audio codecs like this is definitely a good thing, I rue the fact that such proprietary (and/or patented) codecs exist in the first place. I dream of a day when the need for these dwindles and vanishes to nothing. People need to stop supporting these and start using Free formats such as Ogg Vorbis (lossy), Speex (speech), FLAC (lossless), and Ogg Theora (video). (Hey, a geek can dream, right? ^_^)

No, the cat does not "got my tongue."

> Currently Linux users are able to play the two main
> Windows Media formats (wmv and wma) but only if they
> install closed-source modules.

What do you mean "closed-source"? Don't they know about IRC channel #linux-quote-closed-source-unquote-nudge-nudge-win k-wink?

Untrue statements....

mplayer can play far more then the two formats, even without the Windows codecs....

Confusion Abounds

I'm confused. So Real Networks is going to release a solution that allows Linux users to watch Windows Media files? I could have sworn VideoLAN Client played Windows Media files already (and iTunes music files as well!).

Its a PR Stunt

I'd be happy if Real would fix RealPlayer 10 for Linux to work with NFL Field Pass. http://www.real.com/partners/nfl/fieldpass.html?br and=nfl&pcode=nfl&rsrc=nfl [real.com]

They need to start offering the same services for Linux as they do for Windows. Can't login my ass.
(And, no. I don't feel that its fair to run RealPlayer for Windows under Wine). I paid for the service, give me the damn service whether I choose to run a Mac/Windows/Linux OS on my computer.

Enjoy.

No Thanks.

Seriously. Real Player has sucked hard for at least 10 years.

Um, who cares?

You know what happens when I run into a WMV or WMA or a Real movie or any other crap proprietary format? I hit the back button. Wow, big deal, now we can "easily" and "legally" watch movies on eBaum's. It'll have to be a little more than 'chilly' downstairs for me to put Real on any computer I own.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

Maybe you should atleast read the summary. It's open source. Your post makes little or no sense at all.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

Is this a deliberate troll? Either that or you've never used RealPlayer for Linux.

RealPlayer for Linux has no spyware, is not bloated (it has a standard and fairly minimal Gtk2 interface, whereas the Windows version uses a custom interface), and I've not encountered any bugs during my brief encounters with it.

Re:So, Real is trying to compete...

the problem with a win32 emulated closed source system....

I need to own a copy of windows to legaly have it. If i don't then i don't have the legal right to use windows dlls or other stuff.

What does this mean to someone who doesn't think free means get it from emule? It means it is off limits without obtaining legal right to run it. With reals offering, i have that right(or it would apear so)