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The Fight For End-To-End: Part One

Posted by michael on Wed Dec 06, 2000 01:30 PM
from the in-one-NIC-and-out-the-other dept.
Stanford University held a workshop last Friday - The Policy Implications of End-to-End - covering some of the policy questions cropping up which threaten the end-to-end paradigm that serves today's Internet so well. It was attended by representatives from the FCC, along with technologists, economists, lawyers and others. Here are my notes from the workshop. I'm going to try to skip describing each individual's background and resume, instead substituting a link to a biography page whenever I can. (Part one of two.)

The summary provided by the conference organizers has a brief description of end-to-end:

"The "end-to-end argument" was proposed by network architects Jerome Saltzer, David Reed and David Clark in 1981 as a principle for allocating intelligence within a large scale computer network. It has since become a central principle of the Internet's design. End-to-end [e2e] counsels that "intelligence" in a network should be placed at its ends -- in applications -- while the network itself should remain as simple as is feasible, given the broad range of applications that the network might support."

Another way to view end-to-end might be as a sort of network non-interference policy: all bits are created equal. The problem is that there are substantial economic incentives to treat bits differently, and these incentives are changing the architecture of the Internet in ways which may be detrimental to public values.

The workshop covered a number of areas:

  • Voice over IP
  • Network Security
  • Quality of Service
  • Content Caching
  • Broadband
  • Wireless

Jerome Saltzer started off with a technical overview of the end-to-end argument. In summary: digital technology builds systems of stunning complexity, and the way to manage this complexity is to modularize. For networking, this resulted in the layer model that many slashdot readers are familiar with. He suggested that designers should be wary of putting specific functions in lower layers, since all layers above must deal with that design decision. For a longer explanation, one can always read the original paper. If you've never heard of end-to-end before, I do suggest reading this paper before continuing. It's short.


First, Scott Bradner described two competing architectures for voice-over-IP protocols: one which employs central servers to direct and manage calls (the Media Gateway Control model, or Megaco), and one which puts most of the intelligence in the end-points, with the phones/computers originating the calls (the Session Initiation Protocol, or SIP). One important difference: SIP phones can use a central server to direct calls, but Megaco phones have no capability to act independently. Building a great deal of intelligence into the central servers is less end-to-end-compliant than building it into phones at the edges of the network.

One member of the audience pointed out that Federal law requires companies to build wiretapping capabilities into phone switches and wireless network equipment, and wondered how that would be implemented if the phones initiated the connections themselves (SIP). Traditional wiretapping is predicated upon the idea that there is a central server which all communications pass through. The panel candidly replied that when no central server is used and encryption is employed, wiretapping is difficult. One audience member pointed out that wiretapping at centralized switches is not the most effective way to do it, anyway -- since switches can be routed around and communications can be encrypted, the only truly effective way to wiretap would be to build tapping capabilities all the way at the edge of the network -- the phone itself. While some of the audience laughed, I think most of the participants also realized the dark undertones of this suggestion.

Next the discussion turned to innovation. In one model, the central servers would be controlled by companies with a vested interest in managing them conservatively, suppressing competition, etc. In the other, individuals would be able to create/control their own phones on the perimeter of the network, and the only barrier to innovation would be finding someone else to adopt your improvement as well so that the two of you could communicate. In the first model, innovations which benefited the company would be the only ones permitted. In the second one, any innovation which benefited the end-user would be possible.

Finally the discussion moved to a rarely thought about side effect of voice over IP. Universal service -- phone service to (nearly) every resident of the United States -- is funded through access charges on your phone bill. In effect, people in cheap-to-service areas are subsidizing those in expensive-to-service areas, ranging from the badlands of Nevada to wilderness areas of Alaska. From a societal point of view, ubiquitous access to telephones has been a great boon, but providing it requires a societal commitment -- otherwise people living outside of major population centers might never have phone service. Suppose now that traditional telephony is replaced by voice over IP, and no central servers are involved -- there would be no easy way to collect the access charges which subsidize outlying areas. While lowering such taxes may have widespread appeal, completely abandoning the commitment to universal service would be a great loss to society.


The next focus was network security. Firewalls are probably the most obvious breaks in the end-to-end paradigm -- after all, these devices' sole purpose is to stand in the way of network connections, and decide which are permitted and which are not. Participants brought up (but thankfully, quickly moved past) the true-but-useless point that if all operating systems were secured properly, there would be no need for firewalls.

Hans Kruse pointed out that if security must be implemented at the end anyway -- as it must if any incoming traffic is permitted through the firewall -- then there's no reason to do it at the center as well. David Clark put forth the useful distinction between mandatory and discretionary access controls -- mandatory controls being ones put into place by someone else, discretionary ones put into place by you. Discretionary controls do not violate end-to-end, but mandatory ones generally do. Michael Kleeman noted that the reasons firewalls are put into place include the desire to control the actions of users inside the firewall as often as the desire to control access from outside.

Doug Van Houweling spoke regarding Network Address Translation (NAT). NAT allows two networks to be joined together, and is typically used to join a network of machines with non-routable IP addresses to the global internet. NAT is an outgrowth of the limited availability of IPv4 addresses, but is also employed in some cases as a poor man's security measure. Generally, Houweling described NAT as an affront to end-to-end, because any application which requires transparency of addresses breaks, making end-to-end encryption impossible. Added to which, applications sometimes transmit data in the TCP/IP headers which NAT alters. The group noted that NAT can be eliminated simply by putting more addresses into circulation. Later in the workshop, Andrew McLaughlin talked about the address allocation process for IPv6 and said that it is shaping up to be much better than that for IPv4.


The workshop moved on next to Quality of Service. QoS in this case covers a wide range of proposals (and a few working implementations) for selectively speeding up or slowing down network traffic -- a sort of nice for network data flows. The "benign" use of QoS is to ensure that traffic which is strongly time-sensitive like videoconferencing or telephony gets priority over the download of NT Service Pack 16. There are less-benign uses: Cisco's 1999 White Paper which encouraged cable Internet operators to use Cisco's QoS features to speed up access to proprietary (read: profitable) content while slowing down content from competitors was the red flag in the QoS realm, raising concerns about the role of ISPs in traffic delivery and abuses by telecom carriers which are also content providers.

This segment started with an overview of QoS. There are several ways to implement QoS on a network. The simplest is to build a network with a capacity great enough to never be maxed out; if the network has sufficient bandwidth, there's no need to worry about QoS in the first place. There are costs, though, to maintain sufficient excess capacity on the network. This is called "adequate provisioning" if it is your preferred method of managing traffic, or "over-provisioning" if you prefer one of the other QoS approaches. The other ways under consideration are an integrated service architecture and a differentiated service architecture. The former would monitor and track each individual data flow -- the call you place to your mother in Singapore could be treated differently from the call you place to your grandmother in Kracow. The latter would only allow differentiation between classes of services -- all videoconferencing would be treated similarly, for example. Of the three, adequate provisioning is fully end-to-end while DiffServ is less so, and IntServ is highly non-compliant.

Jerome Saltzer (from the audience) made the point that no QoS technique provides real guarantees of service, and any technique except having plenty of excess bandwidth available violates the principles of end-to-end. He emphasized that people should be aware of the trade-offs.

Jamie Love mentioned not only the Cisco white paper but pointed out that this situation lent itself to behavior like that which has landed Microsoft in hot water -- using one's control of a particular system to speed up one's own content and impede competitors' from flowing. A member of the audience countered QoS would allow companies to create different levels of service -- pay more for fast access, less for slow access -- and that this was a good thing.

There were two distinct classes of problems identified. The first is similar to the distinction among methods for carrying voice over IP: the companies that control the QoS-enabled servers get to control who gets to innovate in QoS-related areas. The second, related problem is that of carriers using QoS features to promote their own content. The second problem has traditionally been solved by requiring a separation of carriage and content -- keeping the owner of the lines and the provider of content over those lines separate. The current FCC and FTC are not enforcing that traditional check against monopolization of content in telecommunications; thus it's likely that unless governmental policies change, AOL/Time Warner will be a position to promote its own content through control of the cable Internet services it owns.

Doug Van Houweling then spoke and noted that the Internet2 project is taking a very strong stance promoting QoS, because that stance is seen as necessary to promote investment in Internet2 architecture.

An audience member spoke up and suggested that the best regulatory course would be regulation with a light touch -- regulation could provide the minimum necessary controls to provide really necessary QoS while disallowing abusive uses. At this point Deborah Lathen asked the $64,000 question: how would the FCC make this fine regulatory distinction? No one had a good answer to that question.


In Part two tomorrow: transparent caching, broadband and wireless access, and capitalism.

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  • Server reliability & performance by sulli (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:06AM
  • Impacts IDS (Intrusion Detection Systems) too by brassman (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:43AM
  • Re:Yawn, QoS by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:09AM
  • Re:bandwidth by ckedge (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:46AM
  • Great point. by re-geeked (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:51AM
  • Re:Obligatory Napster reference by spood (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:51AM
  • by kali (32955) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:39AM (#577223)
    That's right, ATT was facing growing competition, so they had the government declare them a "natural monopoly." In 1984, the government was just trying to undue the mistake it had made 60 years earlier.

    This has to be one of the most asinine conclusions I've ever seen. Did you even read the rest of the Britannica entry? Specifically, the part you left out in the middle of your quote. I assume you did, since it tells a very different story than the selective quote you provided.

    For those who are too lazy to read for themselves, here's the part tylerh left out:

    Vail was brought back into the company as president in 1907, and from then until his retirement in 1919 he molded AT&T into virtually the organization that lasted until 1984. Vail set about trying to achieve a monopoly for AT&T over the American telecommunications industry. He consolidated the Bell associated companies into state and regional organizations, acquired many previously independent companies, and achieved control over Western Union in 1910.

    In other words, AT&T used standard laissez faire capitalist techniques to achieve their monopoly. But what about the Graham-Willis Act of 1921? It didn't create the monopoly; ATT had done that themselves. Do a google search on it, and you'll find that (essentially) all it did was exempt telcos from the Sherman Antitrust Act.

    So what's the moral of the story? Aside from the fact that tylerh has no problem using selective quoting to deceive the lazy, what we see is that ATT basically bought a law that gave them (temporary) immunity from antitrust prosecution. The gov't didn't create ATT, or do anything to create it's monopoly. They simply refused to use federal law to restrain ATT in 1921. To imply that ATT used a gov't granted monopoly to put down their "growing competition" is sheer intellectual dishonesty.

  • No need for firewalls? by SCHecklerX (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:47AM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by plague3106 (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:52AM
  • Re:i want higher priority by sulli (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:10AM
  • A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by SuperKendall (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:54AM
  • Re:No, think about it... by ENOENT (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:13AM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by dangermouse (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:21AM
  • Re:Correction by ethereal (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:30AM
  • NAT isn't just about tight address space by Kwantus (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:33AM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by Dr.Dubious DDQ (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:43AM
  • Re:QoS Bad (well, not necessarily in offices) by mnbeldin (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @05:59PM
  • e2e by definition by nezroy (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:44AM
  • Napster centralized? Yes and no. by yerricde (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @06:04PM
  • Microsoft Windows monopoly? by cpeterso (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:47AM
  • Re:assumptions about e2e by anothy (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @06:20PM
  • completely irrelevant aside by unc_onnected (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @06:22PM
  • Re:No need for firewalls? by DC AirBag (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @06:29PM
  • power deregulation by unc_onnected (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @06:43PM
  • Re:assumptions about e2e by Pathetic Fanboy (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @07:42PM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by SuperKendall (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @07:52PM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by SuperKendall (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @07:54PM
  • Re:"Society" benefits? by BEHiker57W (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:43PM
  • Correction by binkless (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:19AM
  • Re:bandwidth by PTBarnum (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:20AM
  • Re:For an example by JanneM (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:20AM
  • Re:Yawn, QoS by swagr (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:22AM
  • Re:Correction by ethereal (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:56AM
  • I'm jumping the gun, but why is any of this even? by mindstrm (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:56AM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by ndrw (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:03AM
  • Re:No, think about it... by john@iastate.edu (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:49AM
  • No, think about it... by john@iastate.edu (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:04AM
  • "Society" benefits? by Dr.Dubious DDQ (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:53AM
  • Re:QoS Bad by pestie (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:04AM
  • by tylerh (137246) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:58AM (#577256)

    kali,

    You are correct that my Brittanica link did not fully support my conclusion. Slashdotters are not reknowned for their long attention spans, so I keep my posts brief.

    Since you've read this far, let me take more of your time and tell a fuller story. It's more intersting. Sadly, I don't have supporting links handy

    As Kali points out, ATT reached for monopoly via "standard laissez faire ." If memory serves, they had about a 70-80% market share when, as Kali correctly points out, they bought themselves anti-trust protection and stomped the rest of their market. While we'll never know, many (myself included) doubt that ATT would ever have reached their ultimate 95%+ penetration without government help. Microsoft seems stuck in the 90-95% range, and even Standard Oil never got that far.

    Back on topic, Kali is missing a key fact. Consistent with " standard laissez faire," the ATT "monopoly" was already under attack. Ever wonder why security companies get their bare copper provided to them by the telcos on the cheap? ah, there is a tale. By the 1910s, Private alarm companies had sprung up that were laying their own copper. ATT realized that this was a competing infrastructure, so they cut a deal: we'll give you our copper cheap, you stay out of voice. This was formalized in the rate tariffs as the government set concrete on ATTs "monopoly." And there matters stayed, until DSL pioneers staring ordering bare copper "security alarm" lines for their data networks. Nasty lawsuits/hearings ensued, where this juicy history turned up.

    ... and if mine was the "one of the most asinine conclusions [you]'ve ever seen," kali you are clearly new to slashdot.

  • Re:Obligatory Napster reference by ethereal (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:08AM
  • I hate to do this, but MOD THIS UP! by TrentC (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @11:58AM
  • PDF! by Thorin_ (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:00PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by Madwand (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:18PM
  • Re:Correction by Xerithane (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:30PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by seichert (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:40PM
  • Re:NAT IPv6 and Security... by scruffy (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:44PM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by DJerman (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:49PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by Malcontent (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:08PM
  • jitter? pah! Remember Cheshire's Law by epeus (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:11PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by Malcontent (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:12PM
  • NAT IPv6 and Security... by giberti (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:41AM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by pjrc (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:30PM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by sti (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:47PM
  • For an example by Jedi Alec (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:42AM
  • Re:NAT IPv6 and Security... by giberti (Score:1) Thursday December 07 2000, @02:26AM
  • The end-to-end idea sounds decent enough... by AFCArchvile (Score:1) Thursday December 07 2000, @04:15AM
  • More government regulation, great! by seichert (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:43AM
  • Translation by gruntvald (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:25AM
  • Obligatory Napster reference by Icebox (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:27AM
  • Re:QoS Bad by PTBarnum (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:28AM
  • Re:Correction by Xerithane (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:09AM
  • Re:Questions Questions by re-geeked (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:30AM
  • assumptions about e2e by anothy (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:10AM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by Asgard (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:11AM
  • Re:No, think about it... by thelaw (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:16AM
  • Scalability (Score:4)

    by StormyMonday (163372) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:17AM (#577283) Homepage
    The biggest advantage of end-to-end networks (also called stupid networks [hyperorg.com]) is their extreme scalability. You can set up a tiny little TCP/IP network at home; it works. We have the TCP/IP Internet; it works. Anything that requires central "intellegence" (read: control) will collapse, sooner or later, as the network expands. Doesn't matter if it is caused by a simple overload, a DoS attack, a terrorist bomb, or a court order. Hit the central server and it goes down.

    The problem is that folks are trying to put services (like voice) that need realtime delivery onto a network that wasn't designed for it. In a straight IP based network, each router only needs resources for the packets that it is currently handling. As soon as a packet gets sent, the router's interest in it ends. A packet can (theoretically!) take any route at all through the network, and it's the endpoint's responsibility to put everything back together.

    Anything else requires additional resources for each connection going through the router. For a backbone router, this is a *lot* of connections. It also means that each connection is "nailed" to a single route through the network. Lose a router and you not only lose the packets that it is storing at the time, but all the connections that it is handling. There are ways of handling this, of course, but the solutions are expensive, in terms of both hardware and bandwidth.

    In my somewhat cynical opinion, what the providers want to do is take the simple "flat rate" model that the Internet is built on and turn it into what Scott Adams calls a "confusopoly", where the customer is never sure what services she is getting or what they're supposed to cost.

    Combine this with the Government's desire (all governments) to monitor and control all communications, and you have the recipe for a real mess.


    --
  • Re:QoS Bad by DeathBunny (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:21AM
  • by JoeBuck (7947) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:27AM (#577285) Homepage

    If you take your little network and hook it to another little network, no one cares. Now, let's suppose that you are a big network; in fact, you are the monopoly cable provider in your town. Now, let's suppose you like Fred Foo for mayor, because he helped you arrange your monopoly, and you hate Bart Barr, because he's trying to get a competing cable franchise established. So you decide to give the Foo campaign high QoS and 300 bps to the Barr campaign. Still no reason to regulate?

    Or, to take a more realistic example: you have a cable monopoly and you own a movie studio. You provide high QoS jitter-free streaming interactive movies to your cable modem customers -- but only movies owned by your studio. Competitors can only use your generic, bursty service, with lots of packet retransmissions and brief outages. Customers can use DSL instead of a cable modem, but the local phone company, which controls all DSL traffic, has made a deal with a different movie studio, so if you want to watch someone else's movies you're still hosed. You can try wireless IP, but there's not enough available bandwidth and too much interference.

    Long ago, the feds made a very wise decision: they forced the major studios to sell their theaters. In the old days if you were in a small town you might only be able to get movies produced by the studio that owned your local theater. Content and distribution need to be kept separate, by law if need be.

  • by PureFiction (10256) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:33AM (#577286)
    There seem to be a few misconceptions about the role of QoS and how it relates to direct connections (i hate the fucking E2E buzzcrap. B2B, P2P, E2E, arggg!! ;)

    QoS is actually used in a large portion of the backbone, but not at the IP layer.

    For example, Sprint uses the same network for their digital voice (PCS, long distance). This is a big SONET backbone tied to OCx ATM networks. From there they branch to voice or data.

    For IP data networks, it flies over the OCx networks just the same as voice, but voice has QoS applied to its virtual connections via ATM AAL2. IP data traffic is usually AAL5 with no QoS.

    Also, many of the backbone IP providers (sprint, UUnet) use QoS/traffic shaping at the entry point for small ISP's to ensure that traffic from big fish like sprint or UUnet or AOL? gets better response.

    You may remember an article about big data providers (UUnet and sprint specifically) giving crappy data service to ISP's and affecting their ability to compete or provide relaible services.

    At any rate, the point of this is that currently QoS is used but internal to the backbone carriers themselves. It is definately nice to have, and allows them to implement all sorts of latency intolerant services like voice and video over their networks which cannot be implemented without QoS.

    It will take a lot of effort to get QoS at the IP layer, as this will entail paying ISP's for a QoS connection, probably ATM, and running IP over that connection, or fundamentally altering the IP protocol to include QoS capabilities similar to those provided by ATM. The latter will not happen ;).
  • by seichert (8292) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:51PM (#577287) Homepage
    Deregulation of electrical power supply in California is perhaps leading to higher electrical bills in the long run. There is not real deregulation of electric power in California. I live here, I read the articles, I buy UPSs for all my computers(god this summer was fun wasn't it). In California the power companies still have to sell everything through a government controlled clearing house. This clearing house can basically regulate the price. In addition it is almost impossible to get permits to build new generating facilities because all of the environmentalists scream about anything to do with power generation(yet want us all to drive electric cars). Basically this de-regulation has been poorly managed by the state and the state has never really let go. Why would the governor want to? By being able to control the electricity he is in a greater position of power.

    Secondly, corporations abuse power. They help their friends and burn their enemies, with the consumer left as the meat in the sandwich. Bureaucracy is bureaucracy, private or public. Absolutely. I in no way disagree with you. The fundamental difference is that by law I do not have to buy a particular company's products. I have to abide by whatever laws the government sets. If a bunch of bureacratic slimy corporations do not provide what I am looking for I can buy something from a small business. The most disgusting things that corporations can do is to basically make themselves a part of the government by lobbying them to influence legislation that interferes with the free market. Remember that corporations and their CEOs are not necessarily interested in the free market.
    Stuart Eichert

  • Theoretically, yes... by interiot (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:37AM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by Wesley Felter (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @12:59PM
  • Re:A QOS that makes sense for end-to-end by Squeamish Ossifrage (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @10:37AM
  • Re:Translation by Wesley Felter (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @01:05PM
  • re-examine your assumptions by Wesley Felter (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @01:07PM
  • Redefinition by Stormalong (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @01:08PM
  • Re:No need for firewalls? by Wesley Felter (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @01:13PM
  • Why is NAT bad? by Sloppy (Score:2) Thursday December 07 2000, @05:50AM
  • Re:"Society" benefits? by anothy (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @01:56PM
  • Re:QoS and direct connections by PureFiction (Score:2) Thursday December 07 2000, @06:21AM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by Frank T. Lofaro Jr. (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @02:16PM
  • Re:assumptions about e2e by anothy (Score:1) Thursday December 07 2000, @06:49AM
  • Re:completely irrelevant aside by tylerh (Score:2) Thursday December 07 2000, @08:03AM
  • Re:"Society" benefits? by Dr.Dubious DDQ (Score:1) Thursday December 07 2000, @10:43AM
  • e2e? Yuck. by sulli (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:54AM
  • Re:No, think about it... by sjames (Score:2) Thursday December 07 2000, @01:59PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by DunbarTheInept (Score:2) Thursday December 07 2000, @07:54PM
  • VoIP smart phones (Was: Re:E2E is bad for VoIP) by jbatson (Score:1) Monday December 18 2000, @07:13AM
  • by moogla (118134) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:55AM (#577306) Homepage Journal
    The redundancy of these systems is one of the reasons why we have some of these problems. I would love to reduce my access to the outside world to a single coax or fiber connection to my ISP or Telco, and have all services derived from it. If the government would like to tap my phone, I'll leave a port open on my PBX emulator (if there is such a thing).

    I look at the situation now and want to throw up; vendors paying for stuff that is already being payed for by someone else, names and numbers being bought in blocks and hoarded, etc. etc., protocols that don't want to work with each other, a government that couldn't even fathom the complexity of the system but wants a chokehold on it. We're so screwed.

    I'm moving to Sealand

  • QoS Bad by NateTG (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @08:59AM
  • by SquadBoy (167263) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:00AM (#577308) Homepage Journal
    "No user is really secure, regardless of what OS they use, this we all know, so why does anyone even mention NAT, firewalls etc." Because as a home broadband user something like floppyfw (www.floppyfw.org) is a really good way to get rid of the script kiddies. The answer is yes functionality is a security risk. The only 100% secure computer is encased in cement and at the bottom of the ocean. Security always has been and always will be a tradeoff. A tight little firewall is a really good way of stopping the scitpt kiddies you don't really have anything that interesting but if it is easy they will do it if not they will move on to a easy target these days there are plenty out there. So this really does make sense.
  • Re:Correction by Xerithane (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:31AM
  • by The Cunctator (15267) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:00AM (#577310) Homepage
    Can't you realize that government regulation got rid of the AT&T monopoly? If it were not for government regulation (requiring open access to the phone network), there wouldn't be the competitive market of ISPs which you like so much. People are foolish to think that if you eliminate all regulatory power that companies won't use their unbridled power to favor their friends and hurt their enemies.

  • Re:bandwidth by beddess (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:31AM
  • Re:NAT IPv6 and Security... by handybundler (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:33AM
  • by DunbarTheInept (764) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:34AM (#577313) Homepage
    Who created the AT&T monopoly? Why, the natural laissez-faire forces in a market that is inherently a natural monopoly, that's who. Sure, the government *regulated* the monopoly, but don't kid yourself for a second into thinking that the monopoly would have been nonexistant if the government had let things run their own course. Once Ma Bell had the first phone poles up, the first phone network, nobody else could possibly compete, because it would be impossible to find somewhere to start small. Nobody is going to sign up for some new tiny phone company that doesn't hook up to the rest of the phones in the country yet. Government regulation forces telcos to let other telcos connect to them. Take that away and nobody could ever break into the market once one company has the majority of customers, no matter what the quality of their service might be, or the price, or any of those other factors that companies normally use to compete with each other.
  • Scalability vs Marketing Agendas by Alien54 (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:37AM
  • Re:Obligatory Napster reference by Prophet of Doom (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:38AM
  • The point of QoS (Score:3)

    by cperciva (102828) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:39AM (#577316) Homepage
    The real point of QoS isn't to provide bandwidth to high-priority packets at the expense of low-priority packets, or even to reduce latency. The point of QoS is to reduce jitter, because some applications (VoIP) really hate jitter.

    Separating internet traffic into high-jitter and low-jitter classes could easily reduce VoIP jitter by a factor of 10.
  • by tylerh (137246) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:41AM (#577317)

    Can't you realize that government regulation got rid of the AT&T monopoly?

    This is only half true. During telephony's first 1/2 century ( roughty 1875-1920), vigorous competition was the norm. From Brittanica [britannica.com]:

    After the Bell Company's patent on the telephone expired in 1894, it encountered growing competition from independent phone companies and telephone manufacturers. ... In a commitment first enunciated in 1913 but affirmed by the Graham-Willis Act of 1921, AT&T, as a monopoly," agreed to provide long-distance service to all independent telephone companies. By 1939 AT&T controlled 83 percent of all U.S. telephones and 98 percent of all long-distance telephone lines and manufactured 90 percent of all U.S. phone equipment.

    That's right, ATT was facing growing competition, so they had the government declare them a "natural monopoly." In 1984, the government was just trying to undue the mistake it had made 60 years earlier.

  • IPSec and its limitations by Anthony (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @02:20PM
  • Re:QoS Bad by Pathetic Fanboy (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @02:27PM
  • Re:More government regulation, great! by ahodgson (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @02:47PM
  • Re:assumptions about e2e by Pathetic Fanboy (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @03:00PM
  • Re:QoS and direct connections by Wesley Felter (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @04:22PM
  • Bigger problems than QoS by Peter Greenwood (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @05:14PM
  • Re:Yawn, QoS by ewieling (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @05:37PM
  • That's a hell of a lot of bandwidth by yerricde (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @05:50PM
  • E2E is bad for VoIP. by Jason Pollock (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @05:50PM
  • Despite... by glebite (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:02AM
  • Yawn, QoS (Score:4)

    by sulli (195030) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:02AM (#577328) Journal
    The vendors have been pushing QoS for years. Yet nobody uses it. Why?

    Because nobody is willing to pay for it. Customers of ISP service, given the choice between more bandwidth and priority, always buy more bandwidth with the same dollars. Bandwidth is cheaper and cheaper to provide; priority is expensive. These trends are, if anything, accelerating as DWDM and the like make it ever cheaper to cram more gigabits of traffic onto the same fiber.

    Of course bad guys like cable carriers may use QoS to implement CoS (Crappiness of Service) for their less favored customers, but as options increase, customers of such will switch away.

    It's like soccer in the US: QoS is the wave of the future - and always will be!

  • Ignoring the fact... by the_tsi (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:04AM
  • by gammoth (172021) on Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:04AM (#577330)

    Deregulation of electrical power supply in California is perhaps leading to higher electrical bills in the long run.

    Secondly, corporations abuse power. They help their friends and burn their enemies, with the consumer left as the meat in the sandwich. Bureaucracy is bureaucracy, private or public.

  • Re:Yawn, QoS by Jedi Alec (Score:2) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:05AM
  • bandwidth by nahtanoj (Score:1) Wednesday December 06 2000, @09:05AM
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