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Would You Pay $1000 For Windows?
from the they-better-come-with-a-*nice*-squeegee dept.
If you're interested in the anti-breakup point of view, even as devil's advocate, this is a useful place to start. I don't buy all of Liebowitz's assumptions or conclusions, but it's much more informative than most flamewars, and does bring up some nagging ideas about market behavior and legal remedies.
I found interesting, too, his assertion that "[a]t the current time, there appear to be virtually no major desktop applications that have been ported to Linux, including those from such market leaders as Intuit, Symantec, Lotus, Adobe, or Quark." Fewer than I'd like, certainly, but "virtually none" is hard to buy.
It's not unreasonable to suggest that the price of Windows would rise if it was made by a newly-formed separate division of Microsoft, but if the marketplace is truly dynamic, it seems like that change could as well be in the opposite direction. (How much would Liebowitz have predicted Netscape's browser to cost today, given the information available in 1993?)
And for some devil's advocacy the other direction, you might find this Motley Fool article (suggested by sjbe and others) an interesting take on an MS breakup as well.
90% of PC buyers don't care about OS (Score:4)
PC buyers don't really care about operating systems, except as far as brand loyalty (like the current inane crop of Pepsi and Coke ads in the US try and appeal to). The "average" home PC buyer really wants a web browser, e-mail, and some sort of word processor. A few want games, a few want office applications, and more than a few want some applications which replace accumulating paper (a la Quicken or a PIM). However, no one cares whether it's Microsoft or Mac or a Xerox Alto, as long as it does what they want, is fairly easy to use, and doesn't break at critical times.
Microsoft's marketing muscle and anti-competitive tactics have increased "brand loyalty" by creating the illusion that other operating environments are somehow incompatible, less functional, or incapable of interoperability with Windows, the "market leader". Therefore, for many PC buyers, liking Microsoft is like liking the popular and unchallenged local sports team -- there's little chance they'll lose, and they never *really* disappoint. There's no compelling reason *to* like them, but it's too much work to be a fan of anyone else. Unfortunately, unlike those scenarios of a couple of decades ago, my computer is powerful enough to run Windows on top of Linux, and run all of my old Amiga software besides. Even without Windows, I can still interoperate passably with windows-using colleagues for most things. (although I do use TeX for all word processing, even musicology papers -- with musical examples)
It's really telling that devices like the i-opener are wildly successful even though they're nothing close to Windows -- but that really proves that what draws people to computers is applications. Sure, on Windows, I can pay for seven different browsers (or get one that's inextricable from the OS kernel) and five different office suites -- but I only need one of each. Beyond that, even, the "applications" that people want are things like cnn.com, amazon.com, Napster, and e-mail -- and I can get to CNN from my mobile phone as easily as from a Windows box.
Microsoft is riding on brand loyalty, which they create and enforce with anti-trust actions. Unfortunately, their ride is slowing, because there aren't any compelling features in their products for most users, and there are enough people reverse-engineering MSFT stuff to provide reasonable interoperability from other operating environments. Most people don't need Word to manage bibliographies or outlines -- they don't really need anything more than Works, but they keep Word around to read Word documents....
~wog
Company Info (Score:3)
Intuit:Quicken runs fine on Linux, a la Corel. (if Corel's Office Suite runs under Linux, so does Quicken, it's just not official...)
Symantec & Lotus: They already sold out, or have been crushed by Microsoft. Much more worrisome.
Adobe: They dropped all Unix support in Photoshop 3.x, even though the Windows version of Photoshop 3.0 runs just fine on Linux; see Intuit. Besides, we also have The Gimp.
Quark: Aren't you doing that on a Mac anyhow? Heck, if I had LinuxPPC, I might be able to get that working, too. There are alternatives, too, not that I'd ever want to use, say, Interleaf, but TeX is rather well known; people write books in it.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
Would I pay 1000 dollars for windows? (Score:4)
Clue check (Score:4)
Um, neither is Windows NT.
Next, please?
Re:Well it's already up to $380.66 last I looked.. (Score:3)
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Symantec's irrelevant to Linux (Score:5)
The following Symantec products serve to correct or work around design flaws of Windows/DOS or MacOS:
The following Symantec products serve purposes already filled by existing free software:
The following Symantec products serve political purposes not in tune with many or most Linux users; specifically, they are parental or office censorware:
- I-Gear
- Norton Internet Security (censorware portion)
(The functionality of censorware may be duplicated with free software, so these could perhaps be put in the previous category; however, due to the general opinion of censorware as Bad And Wrong [i.e. unethical on principle and furthermore broken in its implementations] among the Linux community, they belong in their own category.)The following Symantec products are potentially useful under a Linux-based OS:
(Mobile WinFax is not counted as it runs on the PalmOS, not a conventional OS. Norton SystemWorks is not counted because it is a bundle of several packages listed above.)
In short, it is not to be taken as a surprise that Symantec, and other "utility software" companies, see themselves as not having anything to offer the Linux community -- they don't.
Re:Say the word Microsoft, watch IQs plummet (Score:3)
But on the tangential note you've brought us to about what people should do if they don't have windows as an option anymore.. just what is it that you're suggesting here? If they don't use linux they should use macOS?
Assuming MacOS X runs as well as it supposedly does and that it can be made to run on a pc, what happens when all the former windows users go out and pick up MacOS for their new computers? Sure, some would probably go for linux instead, but that still leaves you with a large majority of the computer using population using MacOS.. So I suppose that monopolies are okay, just so long as theyre based on a BSD kernel?
Dreamweaver
Heil Microsoft! (Score:3)
I just took a look at ebay, and someone is apparently willing to pay at least $380.66 for Windows.
Some people will pay big bucks for old Nazi souvenirs, too. Not that Microsoft is trying to take over the world, of course. They don't have heavy, sloppy vehicles of war with which to run over opponents and blast the competition to pieces.
Oh, wait a minute ....
Hardware cost would rise? (Score:3)
Well, maybe due to the past trend of Windows bloat requiring more hardware...but that much more? If it bloats that much more, the additional bugs will make the crashes will happen even more often.
Re:$1000 on Windows? Old news. (Score:3)
Re:He forgets (Score:3)
It is this sort of phony "tech support" which encourages Windows users to start constructing their elaborate voodoo rituals of self-protection from system bugs -- reboot, stand on one foot, whack the monitor three times on one side, boot into safe mode, reboot, sacrifice a goat, and reinstall. The "just reboot" attitude leads not to computer literacy, but to more ignorance and irrationality.
If the user is suffering from a Windows bug which causes intermittent failure, be honest with them: "This is a problem we've reported to Microsoft; they've said they'll consider including it in the next Service Pack, due out in six months; until then, you're out of luck -- just save your work twice as often and do more backups." Don't cop out and defend the indefensible with another "Just reboot, it'll go away."
Msft OS is getting quite fragmented.... (Score:3)
Gaaaa!!! Way too many windoze to support, and it's getting worse every year. I had enough problems migrating people from Win3 to the Win95 std gui, even then some folks still prefer fileman over explorer! Though Office2k runs happily on Win95a, there are plenty of forced tie in upgrades via the network effect. I was royally pissed to find Win95a wouldn't support USB and that only an OEM upgrade version did. Same deal w/ an AMD 400Mhz cpu upgrade - win95a had a timing issue and Msft wasn't interested in fixing it, sorry AMD. Just yesterday I had to send out a memo to one dept with a 'newer' Office version reminding them to 'save as' an older version for a dept with older Office OR ELSE write up exactely what features your using in the new version that justifies spending $300/wrkstn for upgrades. Answer is that few people use any of the advanced features, the 'newer' version dept has what they have because it was purchased later or is a fashion/status symbol. With the market penetration Msft has, constant upgrades IS the Msft business model, even if it's the equivelent of trading in a perfectly good car for a new one with larger fins and rearranged taillights and that sleek, aerodynamic modern look (whoops, reboot).
Oh, yesterday I got royally pissed at NT4SP5 when a ras process got HUNG and would not terminate (something between WinGate and ras made ras think a port was in use, when you could bring up hyperterm and dial out with no prob!), forcing me to go around and log everyone off to reboot - Usually it is up for months and I leave it alone, serious, but do one thing unusual and it freaks, jeeez.
Paying only $1000? (Score:5)
See, Microsoft is a 'lets-make-money-forget-the-customers' company -- they charge for everything, including every piddly little upgrade for Windows. (The Windows 98 -> SE upgrade is almost $90 from EggHead.com
Windows 95 Upgrade (From 3.11) - $125
Windows 98 Upgrade (From 95) - $125
Windows 98 SE Upgrade (From 98) - $125
The FULL versions of these pieces of software are at least twice as much. (At least here in Canada.. granted, our currency is worth slightly more then a pile of donkey shit.)
Oddly enough, Microsoft sent me a copy of Milennium for free. (I beta tested it for them.) Guess where it is now?
(Answer to rethorical question: on my coffee table, making sure that wet glasses don't leave moisture rings!)
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CitizenC
I'd *want* an annual fee (Score:3)
Seriously, I would *want* to see an annual fee for software. Just imagine if you could rent a piece of software like that, on an annual or monthly basis:
I'd think that a "software for rent" system has its advantages.
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So what? (Score:3)
Re:Support costs (Score:3)
What people keep forgetting is that "granny" is a niece market, indeed to some extent all markets are. One problem with Windows is that it trys to be a "jack of all trades" and manages most things badly. (Saying that it manages being a standalone single user machine the best. Connect it to a LAN or want multiple users and you are soon into headache teritory.)
Much easier to tell them to stick a CD in the drive, click install, and be done with it.
Rembering to cross fingers that it will work and that no other application will suddenly start misbehaving.
Windows is EXCELLENT for newbies
Except that it is hardly "excellent" in terms of ease of use also it isn't a good idea to give a newbie something which is quite trivial for them to break
and that is why it is sold with almost all computers today
Actually the reason that Windows is on virtually all new computers is the result of Microsoft's selling arrangments. i.e. "If you only bundle our product then it costs X per unit, if you don't then it costs Y per unit. Where Y>>X (Assuming we will sell it all)" N.B. this kind of thing is also illegal in many parts of the world.
Re:He forgets (Score:3)
Precisely. When a computer crashes, there is a problem. It is not caused by cosmic rays. It is not an inevitable consequence of bits rotting. It is almost invariably the result of programmer error (hardware faults are the other possibility, but by comparison are exceedingly rare) and can and should be isolated, located, and fixed. Any other attitude is unprofessional.
current cost of Windows (Score:4)
Just two points:
Anyone who has been using Windows since version 3.1 (the earliest version at which the product was anything more than a joke) then they have, by now, paid between $250 and $500 for the product, if they have been upgrading faithfully. If they made the jump to Windows NT they are probably verging on that magical $1000 mark by now, if they have not already surpassed it.
On top of the outright cost, we should probably be counting the costs factored into bundled hardware sales and third party software development, which I couldn't even begin to compute here. I'll just say that I suspect that costs to consumers have been increased, rather than lowered, by the existance of the Microsoft monopoly.
If Microsoft has anything to say about the matter, every Windows user will be forced to pay an annual fee for the privilage. I don't know what the actual fee is likely to be, but I suspect that it would rapidly accumulate into a sizable chunk of change.
It is exactly the monopoly power that Microsoft wields that will allow them to institute this new pricing scheme.
Microsoft pricing (Score:4)
Microsoft sells their OS for less than they could get for it given their monopoly. Most of the profit comes from the applications. With a breakup, the OS company would have to make money from just the OS, not the applications, and they'd have a monopoly on Windows, so they might raise the price.
That's not a totally stupid claim. That's what might happen for the first few years after a breakup, until the market share of Windows declined. On the other hand, the guy doesn't mention that Microsoft has about 3x the return on investment of the rest of the desktop software industry.
He also makes the point that Microsoft's standardization of APIs does have some value. Remember when apps had to have printer drivers? The UNIX community had a terrible time standardizing; POSIX is pretty basic (no GUI) and there's still some Berkeley/AT&T incompatibility. On the other hand, once you've ported to a variant of UNIX, you usually don't have to update as often as you do with Windows. (Ask anybody who writes to Direct-X.)
It's a very biased article, but not totally dumb.
the reality and loss of no windows. (Score:4)
Another thing, why does slashdot think that there are only two sides?(ms and linux) There are many sides and linux may not come out on top. There is a loyal following of BSD, the MAC is still strong despite everyones claims against it, and BeOS is a stable, powerfull OS that might get some development attention if MS were to get cut. QNX has a nice new OS out that is 100% posix compliant and has the beginnings of a nice GUI.
Microsoft(or one of the parts) would still have quite a bit of controll because of costly upgrades or change overs to other operating systems and data transfers. They would be in need just for compatibiliy with existing data files.
$1000 on Windows? Old news. (Score:3)
(rounded to the nearest $10 increment)
So I've laid out $810 already (before sales tax) on Windows, which has never even been my primary operating system. Next time I have to upgrade my Windows install to stay current so that I can exchange files with "The Outside World" I will probably exceed $1000 if sales tax is considered.
Amount spent on Linux over the years? $50.00 for ten boxes of blank floppies that I used to hold downloaded Slackware versions 2.x and 3.x until it went CD/Zip, and after that nothing because I've been downloading my distro CD contents on the net to the same 640MB MO disk over and over again now for several years.
Amount spent on MacOS over the years for my Mac machines? $0.00 -- Apple has always had MacOS (though a slightly out-of-date version) available on-line at their ftp site.
Only Microsoft will still happily sell you a decade-old version of their operating system for full retail price.
Re:current cost of Windows (Score:3)
I'd have to disagree.. There's supply and demand to deal with. If they offer a new version of windows, they have to convince people to purchase the "upgrade". They have to consider how much people will pay for it. The situation is similar with OEMs. If the newer version is much more expensive than an older, why would a person exclusively sell it? During transition periods, you can usually find the option to choose which OS you want from retailers.
MS is bound by supply and demand just as much as anyone else. Even monopolies are confined by it.
The Justice department concluded that MS _was_ in fact charging more for their OS than they could have due to competative supply and demand (though I suspect that it was well within intelligence for a Monopolistic economist).
The reason the price is so low is most likely to proliferate the newest versions, so that they can continue to squash the competition (the real threat). Take Netscape for example. They needed to squash them, so they needed to make sure that _everyone_ had IE. Best way to do it was to integrate into the OS. How do you get people to get that OS (since not everyone uses AutoUpdate), provide a new OS as a reasonable price. I'm sure it's the exact same thing for media players in win-me. I think MS also sees a threat from the iMac crowd. For the first time Apple is viable for the budget PC. So MS wanted to offer the exact same services as the iMac, so as to remove Apple from that exclusive Niche.
The _reason_ MS can get away with marginally profitable pricing schemes for the OS is because once their platform is secured, they can feature bloat their office products and super-charge for them.. Because Office is so expensive, it wouldn't be too painful to migrate to another office suite. But if people perceived that MS Office fullfilled all of their needs, then they might be more likely to stay with MS. MS has a solumn duty to fullfill all our needs (I'm still waiting for MS Pr0n), so this means making sure that they squash competition.. And this means giving as much away for free as possible. (Just read the Justice findings on their internal memos for IE).
I agree with you that after being broken up, their prices will rise.. But if they stick with the bloat-ware, single product, then theyr'e going to go under.. If they charge $1,000 for a product, then they'll get a hell of a lot less sales. Their only alternative would be to offer a cheaper version with less "crap". Their incentive to provide everything for free will go away, and we'll start to see comptition with the feature-ware once again. Netscape _might_ become a contender again, RealPlayer might not get squashed (if this happens in a timely manner), Symantec might be able to step up admin utils again. And most definately, Office competitors will spring back to life.
Office will most likely come down in price, while Windows will have to segment their products (though overall windows will be more expensive).
The sum total of all MS products will probably be $1,000, but the key will be that we'll have the opportunity to purchase the items seperately, and thus have choices (once again) about who we want to spend that $1,000 on.
-Michael
Well it's already up to $380.66 last I looked... (Score:5)
Someone selling Windows 1.0 on Ebay [ebay.com]
This is Nonsense: Counterexamples Abound (Score:3)
After all, Mac OS 7, 8, 9 and X are all available for substantially less than $1K. And, of course, there is also BeOS, et al. Put simply, if all that the Baby Bills could offer was a $1K Windows, they would all be quickly extinct, and Apple would be the next Microsoft.
What is more, if Apple decided to try to take a monopoly rake, it would then in turn have to face free software as well as anything else the flow of capital to a free market would bear.
All that is required is a free and fair market for OSes -- the rest, particularly the price, will take care of itself.
Re:Too late now (Score:4)
What's most important about this case, however, is how few people outside of the whiny geek contingent actually care about the issue. In the poll mentioned earlier, a sizeable number of people responding to the poll were undecided. Most people who use Microsoft products are sometimes annoyed by the crashing and the cost of upgrading systems, but these are the same people who have used AOL for three years despite all of its technical problems. (The reasons for both cases: "everyone uses it, so there can't be something better" and "I already know how to use this, and I don't want to learn something new.")
In fact, according to the Gallup poll once again, the trend is increasing [gallup.com] in favor of Microsoft. Try to convert a Microsoft lifer to Linux. The second he/she gets a link to a Windows Media Player or QuickTime movie, a cute EXE attachment like a video greeting card, or a Microsoft Office document for StarOffice to slowly beat to death, you'll have some 'splaining to do.
Say the word Microsoft, watch IQs plummet (Score:5)
All up and down the thread i see "Ha! Do that and nobody will buy it!"
--okay, pay attention now, this is the important bit--
That's The Freaking Point!
The whole idea here is that breaking up MS is a bad idea because it would drive the price of MS products up, causing fewer people to buy them, hurting the tech market by alienating customers. Now, before you say, "Huh uh! They'll just use Linux!" remember Grandma May and Steve The Jock whos idea of bleeding edge technology is AOL on their iMac.
Linux isn't for everyone. Now, before you flame me to north dakota and back, i like linux. I'm using linux right now. But linux can be a real pain in the ass sometimes. Yes, you can install redhat 7 in 5 minutes without knowing much about your computer, but do you really think that Grandma wants to learn the directory structure, or that Joe will be awed by the power of the command line? No.. they want to plug the computer in (with as few wires as is possible), turn it on, and have a bright and cheery GUI with nice big buttons staring back at them.
Much as i hate it, idiots are the majority in the modern world. When you think about things like the effects of an MS breakup on the market, you have to remember that the reason MS has a monopoly is that there are enough idiots out there to have put them there.
Dreamweaver
John Dvorak posts to Slashdot! (Score:3)
;-)