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from the following-the-news dept.
ELBnet writes It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once - and that is a great idea. I set up the search engine at WWW.ELBnet.com/wtc but need URLs to populate it. Please e-mail me any suggested URLS and I'll add them.
Also please don't /. the site... let the people who need it get to it. Spread the word."
Radio Free Wazee writes "Radio Free Wazee has suspended its normal programming in order to provide a relay for National Public Radio. Most of the sites are slammed -- we've got room for about 320 listeners. You'll need an MP3 player (WinAMP, etc.) -- the stream is at http://live.str3am.com:2310/listen.pls Our web site is http://www.ideashot.com/wazee.org Howard @ radio free waee"
GatorMan writes "The Red Cross and Amazon.com have setup a donations page for disaster relief to aide in the recovery of our people. I've seen it jump $100,000 in an hour (thanks to my $10 I'm sure) with over 25,000 donations so far, very promising. No where else on Earth could you find support like this."
winksmith writes "as many of us look on the recent crashes in horror, we will also be pushed towards more tech solutions to some of the scenarios witnessed. i believe experts agree that the buildings may have stood up to forces of the crash had it not been for the very hot fuel burning w/i the building. the building themselves were designed to take aircraft impacts (albeit circa 1960 aircraft). this disaster may spark re-interest in fuel additives for jet fuel that would immediately put out fires upon impact.
the faa and nasa ran some very extensive tests including the purposeful crashing of a large boeing jet (B720) in december of 1984. the tests were not encouraging. details are available. figure 1-1 shows the jet crashing.
no one can second guess what would have happened, but perhaps continued research into this area might have played a role in saving a few more lives. and still may in the future."
Wiggins writes ""The Internet Fraud Complaint Center recently received several complaints that someone is using the letters, "FBI" or "fbi.gov" in an e-mail address in order to make it seem that the message is coming from an FBI employee. In several cases, the message said, "Your application is approved. Please fill out this form to confirm your identity" and solicited the person's name, address, credit card number and expiration date." More on the http://www.ifccfbi.gov/. I am sure /. users know better, but the general populace doesn't (always)."
What can be done about terrorism? (Score:4, Interesting)
Today, having calmed down a little, I have been thinking about feasible ways to prevent such acts of terrorism.
Experts seem to agree that security measures can never completely prevent a determined, well organized attempt involving suicide killers. Never being fully secure, maybe we could still make pulling off something like this hard enough so it won't happen again. Please share your ideas.
One thing I read on /. was "physically separate the pilots from the
passenger cabin". I think that would make it a lot harder. It could be
improved by adding security personnel in plain clothes (preferably
Constable Angua von Überwald ;o) israeli-style.
This act was obviously planned by a close and disciplined group. Such groups need money to operate. It has been suggested that Osama Bin Laden be involved in this. Regardless, he is definitely actively supporting terrorism, which is what we are trying to make more difficult.
IIRC, Bin Laden is a sort of rich businessman from Saudi-Arabia. Probably he still owns some company (or companies), drawing his income from it (or them). The huge, illegal, (nonexistant) cartels of (nonexistant) multinational corporations (not) governing virtually all international trade all (don't) have well established procedures (not) to crush possible competitors. Considering the degree of interdependency in our economy and the fact that the WTC housed some quite influential offices, Bin Ladens commercial efforts might suddenly prove unfit for competition on global markets, as did many others, surprising unsuspecting watchers.
Apparently, he gets lots of cash from fund-raising organizations operating in rich (read: G7) countries. Could these be found out, their efforts proved illegal, their money confiscated?
These methods could be used against multiple targets. They seem to involve less martyr potential than nukes. Any other suggestions?
Kiwaiti
Arm Pilots (Score:4, Insightful)
Every commercial airline pilot i have ever met was an ex air-force pilot. (In the USe abotu the only way to learn to fly jhets is to join the US Airforce.)
Given that, I would think they have training on the proper handling of a side arm. Maybe its time to arm them all.
Parent
Re:Arm Pilots (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Arm Pilots (Score:5, Insightful)
I have two points for your consideration:
Firearms on civil aircraft... nope, that's a scary idea. Try Again.
Parent
Proper weapoin wont puncture the Aircraft (Score:4, Interesting)
They have a gun (special bullet i believe) tht has a large bullet and low muzzle velocity. Will put down a human, wont go through steel.
But secondly, to be honest, in a hijacking ill take my chances with depressurization. If the hijacker is put down there are always the breathing masks for the passengers.
Parent
Re:Arm Pilots (Score:4, Insightful)
I see a few replys to your post saying "shooting a gun in pressurized cabin is dangerous, blah blah blah." May I remind them that since yesterday, the safety of the plane and its passengers is NO LONGER the chief concern. That era is gone, say bye bye.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hard for you, maybe, but not for the 7+ million Muslims in the United States who condemn this attack just like everyone else. No, these people are thinking, "Shit, now everyone is going to blame all of us right away."
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, these people are thinking, "Shit, now everyone is going to blame all of us right away."
This is a bit from an email from my brother as part of an ongoing discussion about yesterday's events:
I too have trouble with people looking at Middle Easterners in the US and blaming or feeling ill will toward them. I wish some high ranking government official would say, "if you blame them, then please blame all white people for Oklahoma City. Since that thought probably seems ridiculous to you, stop associating bad things with people just because they might look like people who are suspects".
I hope some high ranking official does.
Steve M
Parent
Re:His name was Timothy McViegh! (Score:5, Funny)
He's dead, ain't he?
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
For thirteen hundred years the Islamic faith has been one of peace, civilization and high culture. The Quran condemns the killing of the innocent. It condemns suicide in any form. It condemns the degredation of women.
Every faith has its extremist bigots who use religion as nothing more than an excuse for their acts of evil.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Every faith has its extremist bigots who use religion as nothing more than an excuse for their acts of evil.
I think this point can't be emphasized enough.
Are the guys that bomb abortion clinics fair representitives of Christianity? No, I don't think so.
If these terrorists were in a different country, they'd probably be a different religion. That doesn't matter. They use things like religion and nationalistic pride to give credibility to their actions.
To give a computer example, these terrorists are like the little punks that write viruses. They can say that they're raising awareness about some issue, but the fact of the matter is that they get off by causing destruction. Relatively minor destruction in the case of virus-writers, but destruction just the same.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Informative)
On veils:
that they should draw their veils over their bosoms, Surah 24:31. Note that the complete passage here says nothing about veils over the face, but does forbid dressing in a deliberately provocative manner. The previous verse also admonishes *men* to guard their modesty as well. I can find no references to veils needing to be worn over the face.
On murder:
nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast them into the fire: and easy it is for Allah., Surah 4:29-30.
On foreigners:
Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet) and what your right hands possess: for Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious., Surah 4:36
And about your quotes: Immediately AFTER your first quote is written:
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)., Surah 8:61.
From context, your second quote clearly refers to those who have broken oaths: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths and initiated the aggression, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!, Surah 9:11
As for Islamic women, I lived next door to one that went out in public daily with normal everyday American clothing, and used a bikini when at the beach. Perhaps you are confusing religion with culture, because she was not arab or Persian, but Turkish.
Don't get me wrong, I am not Islamic, and I have extreme opposition to it on theological grounds. But as a moral code it ranks among the best. One big problem with Islam, and which tends to cause extremism in some cases, is the deliberate joining of spiritual and secular authority. In other words, they do not believe in the separation of church and state.
Parent
What can be done? Nothing. (Score:4, Interesting)
Make any change at all in response, and you are instantly losing. Pandering to the desired effect, which is 'change'.
Say what you will about the loss of life, and the human tragedy of it, but the fact remains: humans die, whether at the hands of other humans, or by their own doing.
Yes, it's horrific the way things went down in New York yesterday. Terrible, and we all suffered through it (thanks to live action television) with those souls in the street and in the buildings and planes.
Americans fear death. Everything they do - their entire culture - is designed to prolong the inevitable.
It is this nations biggest weakness.
Responding to this form of terrorism with anything less than an utterly peaceful view is to let the terrorists win.
Killing terrorists in retaliation won't work - they've already demonstrated they're not afraid of death - something that most Americans can not truly admit.
Face it. In this particular case, America is not the superpower, since those who do not fear death have the mightiest weapon of all.
However, we should of course expect a typically American reaction. Bombing of specific targets. Categorically standard propagation of information by American news/propaganda corporations. Political jousting and hustling. Conspiracy, subterfuge, irresolution.
Made for TV movies will be on the airwaves by June
Parent
Re:What can be done? Nothing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing absolutely nothing would be an impressive reaction. But it will never happen. America must react. Why? My reasoning is slightly different than yours: Politicians must fight for re-election. Any politician who is against retaliation would be comitting professional suicide. Speaking of reservations is one thing, but doing anything other than fully going along with whatever the President's plan will be would cause a massive public uproar. This has caused to much pain for too many people -- ignoring it is not an option. Emotions conflict with logical reasoning. I've unfortunately encounterred this sentiment more frequently than I'd like to admit.
Parent
Fear of Starbucks... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
You couldn't be more wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, as I understand it, their belief is that dying for their cause is a straight ticket to heaven, but that doesn't mean they don't fear death. Christians also believe that they will be sent to heaven at their death, but that doesn't erase the fear of death in all of us. And obviously whoever is behind this, fears death, because they haven't taken accountability for it. These people aren't fearless, they're cowards.
The reason that these terrorists are willing to die isn't common to their culture. It's common to any military establishment. The purpose of training soldiers is to get them to do things rational people would not normally do. We train our soldiers this way, and every army in history had to lead men, who had a better chance of dying than surviving into a battle. In war there is an expected loss of life on all sides, everyone involved is aware of this.
Making these terrorists out to be somehow braver than Americans is simply false. Up to 300 firefighters risked and lost their lives trying to save people at the WTC. They knew they were at risk, and put their lives in harms way to help someone else. This is bravery on a national scale. A few terrorists lost their lives, to perform a dispicable and cowardly act, this is not bravery.
These terrorists do not have the tools or the resolution to win. We can, should and will fight them. America has the resources, resolution, and unity to do this, the commitment from our allies only makes us stronger. These terrorists are weak, and they are cowards. They will fall quickly, and those who have harbored them in the past will be afraid to harbor them in the future.
Parent
Re:What can be done? Nothing. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope, terrorism will exist as long as terrorists can convince themselves that it will be effective.These people aren't necessarily rational.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
The people who did this are barbaric animals with no regard for life.
Having said that, perhaps the U.S. should think twice about supporting and funding Israel's occupation and methodical elimination of the Palestinian homeland. It's no surprise that the Middle East region all refers to Israel as the 51st state of the USA. I wish influential American Jews would do more to push for moderation in Israel and for US separation from the issue.
Just recently the UN discussions used some 'heated' words to describe Israel's policies (racist, etc) and both Israel and the US walked out of the talks. Why is condemnation of Israeli policy an insult to the US? The US and Israel are rightfully seen as a political unit. Why are my tax dollars paying for this?
Now I'm sure public opinion will swing even more strongly against any Arab viewpoints, making any peace unlikely.
For the record I am neither Arabic nor Jewish. Just a citizen of the USA that has become more and more disheartened to see a nation of people that know terrible oppression firsthand now dishing it out.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having said that, perhaps the U.S. should think twice about supporting and funding Israel's occupation and methodical elimination of the Palestinian homeland.
I don't know if you're aware of this but the fundamental problem in that area is that since the founding of Israel, the Arab countries have continuously devoted themselves to its destruction. I think you also have some major misconceptions regarding the nature of a "Palestinian homeland" which could be more accurately described as "whatever area happens to be under Israeli control at the moment".
Not to diminish the reality that many Arabs did lose their homes and property and that the current occupation is untenable and harmful to both sides.
Just recently the UN discussions used some 'heated' words to describe Israel's policies (racist, etc) and both Israel and the US walked out of the talks. Why is condemnation of Israeli policy an insult to the US?
The use of the word "racist" is a non-event. The issue was conference ostensibly intended to fight racism that turned into a wildly anti-semitic assault depicting Israel (one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world) as the sole locus of evil. Yes, it's appropriate that the US government didn't lend legitimacy to it, and European countries should be ashamed of their compliance.
Why are my tax dollars paying for this?
If it makes you feel better, think about how much we spend on defense each year. Now think about the dollar value of the fact that Iraq didn't have nukes in 1991. Was aid to Israel cost effective?
Just a citizen of the USA that has become more and more disheartened to see a nation of people that know terrible oppression firsthand now dishing it out.
I'm not going to relentlessly cheerlead Israel -- their settlement policy in the West Bank was a mistake and it's come back to haunt them. But it's worth keeping in mind that the only country in that region in which Arabs can vote is Israel. In the rest of the area, the best they can hope for is a reasonably benign king (Morocco, Jordan) or despot (Egypt). And also that the current hostility isn't because Israel denied the Palestinians a homeland but because it offered them one.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:4, Insightful)
Those are just buzz words for dissatisfied Western youths whom don't know what evils lurk out there in the world.
What will prevent terrorism? Through out history, the only way to prevent terror is to cleanly and violently defend your interests and remove the heads and bases of the threat.
I cite the Barbary Coast 1797-1806 and the German Spy threat in the United States and UK from 1939-1945 as examples of this working.
The Mossad has also had some good experiances with this working as well.
The French experiance in Spain during the Neopelonic Wars and the German experiance on the Russian Front and Balkins during World War Two as tacticts that do not work.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:4, Insightful)
Reign in corporate greed and globalization. As long as our bottom line takes precendence over human rights, we will be a target of (quite justifiable) rage and (condemnable) violence.
Give me a break. Do you really think that Osama is angry about GLOBALIZATION? About the hegemony of McDonald's? He's pissed about American support for Israel. He's pissed about US bases in the Middle East. He's probably pissed about the decimation of Iraq. Globalization is something North American college students get pissy about. Most of the world has real problems (AIDS, oppression, genocide) and globalization doesn't even rank.
Parent
Re:US foreign policy, not global trade, the issue (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed. And the US was right to drive them back. But you did not protect freedom or democracy. Kuwait is a monarchist dictatorship. It is legal to hold foreig slaves in Kuwait. There Philipinos servants held in virtual bondage by their employers, with the consent of the Kuwaiti government.
The woman who went to the UN to talk to the Assembly about her rape at the hands of Iraqi soldiers was in fact an ambassador's daughter who was not in Kuwait during the invasion.
Note that the US has also, at other times in history, bankrolled and supported Iraq. And Iran. And Afghanistan. Every time it suited a justifiable foreign policy decision.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG.
How are we making anyone in the Middle East 'not free'?
A good, if not somewhat naive, question. The US has interfered in Middle East politics for decades.
I am not claiming that any of these acts were "wrong" - people need to get over the notion that nations act for "right" or "wrong" - these are simplistic notions for children. Nations act in their own interests, as the US did.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Informative)
By lumping a pile of vastly different political situations in with what is certainly a tragedy, the author attempts to legitimize some very questinable acts. It's in poor taste to use this tragedy to push a political agenda.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Lemme preface my own response with the fact that I am not an expert, and that I'm at work and haven't had the chance to look up everything. However:
I really, really, really hate to have to be a cynic at a time like this. But... it's not like we did all the things that Sinclair mentions out of generousity, there was blatent self-interest. The same time we were propping up the French government we were preparing to overthrow the prime minister of Iran. After we "pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries" should we be surprised that "newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war mongering Americans" when you realize how much of that American money went into the pockets of brutal totalitarian regimes? Suharto, Saddam Hussein, Noriega, etc, etc... While we forgiving international debts we were arming and indebting various middle eastern factions against the Soviet Union. Many of the same factions that now hate the US for abandoning or manipulating them. Hell, we trained many of them. It's not like these people just started hating us for no reason whatsoever. We're reaping the rewards of about 60 years of a really nasty foreign policy in the Middle-East.
I don't want to be the bad guy when we need to be united - but what I hope comes out of this tragedy is a better understanding among American citizens as to why a sizeable portion of the world hates them. I hope to see guilt and redemption, not self-congradulatory patriotic pandering - we are not nor have ever been a "Good Neighbor". But it's about time we were.
Parent
Re:What can be done about terrorism? (Score:5, Informative)
(The Europeans have started making decent planes since then.)
More information is available here [ryerson.ca].
The original text is avaiable here [ryerson.ca].
For some reason, the email version (I received one too) omits the references to China, Israel, Egypt and Nicaragua, among others.
Parent
Amazon Donation Page (Score:5, Informative)
Even goatse.cx is mourning (Score:4, Funny)
Shiver (Score:5, Funny)
So twenty odd thousand people are killed, and your first thought is, "hey, lets see what goat.secx has to say about this"
Or maybe you just have it set as your homepage...
Parent
Re:Shiver (Score:4, Funny)
Well, it is a "portal" site of sorts
Parent
Check Out Amazon (Score:4, Informative)
I've been watching Amazon.com's RedCross donation page today. It was mentioned here earlier. It has just passed $1 million collected with over 36,000 people contributing. Truely amazing.
I hope everyone will consider donating at least a little bit to help the victims.
Jonathan
FBI Head says no arrests related to bombings (Score:4, Informative)
Just wanted to clarify that.
Slashdot's coverage (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course there has been wild speculation that was inaccurate - but there was also this everywhere.
The accounts of survivors here and some of the links provided have been really good.
What does everyone else thing of slashdot's coverage ?
Friday's "Worldwide Caution" from Dept. of State (Score:5, Interesting)
"Over the last several months, the U.S. Government has learned that U.S. citizens and interests abroad may be at increased risk of a terrorist action from extremist groups. In addition, we have received unconfirmed information that terrorist actions may be taken against U.S. military facilities and/or establishments frequented by U.S. military personnel in Korea and Japan. We are also concerned about information we received in May 2001 that American citizens may be the target of a terrorist threat from extremist groups with links to Usama Bin Ladin's Al-Qaida organization. In the past, such individuals have not distinguished between official and civilian targets. As always, we take this information seriously. U.S. Government facilities worldwide remain at a heightened state of alert."
[From: http://travel.state.gov/wwc1.html [state.gov]]
The U.S. Department of State apparently knew that something was up, just not exactly what.
Airport security (Score:5, Informative)
I have flown many international flights, but only 3 or 4 times within the USA, and quite frankly security always seemed a little lax, even compared to Canada. This is not to say that airport officals are directly to blame for this tragedy, but one can also look at it pragmatically: there are HUGE numbers of people flying within the USA at all times, and regular delays only seem to piss people off. What will happen now if the security becomes much stricter? I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it when the time comes, but it's not going to be a pretty sight trying to process that many people.
In more positive news, many hundreds of Torontonians have turned out to donate blood! (OK, me included) Please disregard the troll who has been posting that the Red Cross has lots of blood: it's been a known fact for the past year that supplies have been *very* low both here and in the US. Go for it if you can! Even if your blood is not used for this emergency. blood is ALWAYS in demand, and will NOT get thrown out like the troll has implied. It all gets stored and sorted, never has there been a surplus!
Thanks.
Pittsburgh Passengers Tried To Stop Terrorists (Score:4, Informative)
North Atlantic Treaty (Score:5, Informative)
Or copy and paste: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm
there's an argument to be made.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Our "defense" industry is largely what caused this debacle -- the number one export for the United States is weapons. Think about that for a second -- we make more money selling weapons to the rest of the world than any other thing that we make.
The middle eastern countries are mostly split into 2 factions. We, in the United States, choose one of the 2 teams and sell arms to them. Often, we will sell arms to both sides. Remember iran-contra? Anyone? Anyone? Oh, wait, that was patriotic heroism. Only a crackhead or a defense industry salesman would sell fucking ARMS to IRAN.
So, basically, our #1 export is pouring gasoline on fires that have burned for thousands of years. Eventually, one of those fires hits us back here at home, and everyone wants to cry out "more defense" as if this could protect us, or help us sleep at night.
This attack is a reminder that ballistic missles aren't going to save us anymore. Star wars isn't going to stop 8 men with knives from hijacking
domestic flights.
The only thing that is going to save us a sane, rational foreign policy that doesn't incense our enemies in the middle east.
This isn't even a partisan issue. Clinton is as much to blame as either Bush, Ronald Reagan is as much to blame as Lyndon Johnson.
We as a nation need to stop instigating fights if we want to stay out of them. It's that simple.
Re:there's an argument to be made.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh? And where do you get your numbers? Either way, I find it hard to believe in light of how the number one exporter of weapons globally is France.
"The middle eastern countries are mostly split into 2 factions."
Oh, I wish.
Israel is one by itself.
Predominantly Muslim countries that are genuinely friendly towards the US (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan) make a second.
Predominantly Muslim countries whose governments are on friendly terms with the United States, but whose populace isn't all that keen on that idea (Yemen comes to mind). That's three.
Predominantly Muslim countries who don't really give a damn one way or another (Afghanistan, Pakistan). Four.
Predominantly Muslim countries that were outright hostile to the US, but now want friendlier relations (Iran, Lybia). Five.
Predominantly Muslim countries that continue to be outright hostile to the US (Iraq).
That's at least six I can divide the Muslim world into. Of course, for a real analysis, you'll need to look at that part of the world on a country-by-country basis, because each one has different relations with the US (we set up diplomatic relations with nation-states, not religions). This is just as generalized as I feel comfortable with.
"The only thing that is going to save us a sane, rational foreign policy that doesn't incense our enemies in the middle east."
It would appear that our enemies in the Middle East are neither all that sane (suicidal) or rational (the only big winner here is Israel). So how will being "sane" and "rational" be all that better?
And besides, it's real easy to be an armchair diplomat than to actually try to deal with internatonal relations. I note that you only call for vague improvements with no specific ideas on how to make those improvements.
Your ally is using military force against terrorist cells targeting civilians. How do you respond? Do you tell them that they shouldn't defend themselves as scores of their civilians are brutally murdered, or do aid them with materiel that may itself be used against civilian targets?
Your main enemy (militarily, economically, philosophically) is backing one side in a war against another side that has a habit of using weapons of mass destruction. Do you let your arch-rival take control of oil fields vital to the survival of the Western world while continuing to spread a philosophy that is hostile to you, or do you turn a blind eye to chemical weapon attacks by their enemies?
During hostilities involving one of your allies, you have an intelligence-gathering ship off-shore, feeding information to another one of your allies. That second ally, in turn, feeds that information to the enemy of your first ally. The first ally then proceeds to attack and disable your ship, killing scores of her crew. Do you cry out for retribution while it is shown how you're not as good an ally as you should have been (helping their enemies shoot their planes from the sky), or do you sweep it under the rug as a misunderstanding, outraging survivors of the attack?
These aren't so cut-and-dry that a lack of US arms would have solved the problem, and these are all situations that US foreign policy makers needed to deal with in the Middle East (along with scores of other extremely ugly, no-win situations).
While it's real easy for people like you to sit in your comfortable desk chairs and pound away at a keyboard, there are life-and-death decisions that need to be made, ones where people will die no matter what you do, people will be hostile towards you no matter what you do, and no two people agree on who the good guys and the bad guys are.
If we get involved, people are slaughtered. If we don't get involved, people are slaughtered. The only difference is that in the second one we actually fucking TRIED to do something, instead of just abandoning those people to their hapless fate.
Welcome to real life.
Parent
Re:there's an argument to be made.... (Score:5, Informative)
in short, he forewarned Saudi of Saddam's invasions and offered the forces he had lead in Afghanistan to repel them, but instead found that the United States was coming to his country. with a degree in economics he could plainly see that the US was there to stay.
-sam
Parent
Huge outpourings of generosity (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a story to relate about blood donating today. My wife Melissa and I went to our local donation center yesterday to try to donate blood. We picked our daughter Alexis up early from school and went to stand in line. We got there around 3 and put our names on the list. After waiting about 45 minutes or so we were told it would be at least a couple more hours, so we went home and made some sandwiches and had a light dinner, then went back around 5. Around 6:20 we were told the nurses were exhausted and wouldn't be able to get very many more people through and we were asked to make appointments for donating the next day. We made an appointment for noon the next day and left.
All of that is kind of peripheral to the story though. The real story is the vast number of other people who were there. There was a line of people out the door and halfway around the building. I'd estimate a hundred people or more. For a donation center which only services about a dozen people a day on a regular day, this was an extremely busy day. They were eliminating much of the paperwork and putting it off so they could keep up the rate at which they actually drew blood(I later found out that they had stayed past 11 to catch up on the paperwork even though they stopped drawing blood around 7). But the donors were there, and they stayed there for HOURS. There were people who were there, standing outside the doors of the donation center, from before noon until almost 6 PM. The mood was very friendly, there was not too much chatting, everything was kind of subdued, but optimistic and glad to do whatever they could to help, even though they were hundreds of miles away(the DFW area) and no one I spoke with knew anyone in those areas. They were just there because they felt it was the right thing to do. There was a little bit of grumbling when people were turned away, but most made future appointments.
Today Melissa and I went back for our noon appointment. The place was packed again. There was a line out the door AGAIN! There were donations of food and refreshments from local stores. Papa Johns pizza had a person who had come out early that morning with the back of his SUV loaded with pizza and sodas. He donated blood and then spent the rest of the day handing out pizza and drinks to any and everyone who wanted some who was waiting in line. He left a couple of times to go get more and fresh pizza for the staff and people donating. The backup and wait was large again. People were taking a number, getting a time estimate of when their number would be called then going back to work and calling in when their time was close. If they were about to be called, they left work and came back. And they REALLY DID COME BACK!
Jason's Deli dropped off several party trays of snacks and bags and bags of deli sandwiches like they would bring to a catered event. The Kroger down the street came by with supplies of bottled water and food because many people, myself included, were skipping lunch to come stand in line. Both today and last night there were several people who took the day off work/school to volunteer at the center to handle the non-medical work. They were passing out questionnaires, making sure all the donor info was filled out correctly, keeping the lines flowing smoothly and doing their best to keep the work flowing well. I estimate six or seven volunteers last night and an equal number today. Things like bringing new bags and tourniquets for the nurses, keeping the lines in order, walking up and down the lines answering questions about the wait, how long you have to wait between donations, reassuring people who were first-time donors and who were nervous.
There was a young man who skipped school today because he felt that volunteering to help the nurses at the donation center was more important. When I saw him he was helping a woman who was feeling faint after donating by keeping her company and keeping a cool, wet rag on her forehead and bringing her drinks and snacks. He was running errands for the nurses and helping patients in any way he could. He was cracking jokes and making many people feel more comfortable during what is a very nerve wracking experience for first time donors. The nurses expressed their appreciation for his efforts a couple of times in the short time I was there.
The number of people who shared their time, their money, their very lifeblood(literally!) to give aid to strangers whom they shared nothing with except the distinction of being Americans. Then the acknowledgement of the needs of the support workers who do vital things like draw blood and the outpouring of help given by volunteers and local businesses. Melissa and I were spending time re-assuring first time donors(I've donated well over a gallon and Melissa has donated several times as well) and while she was on the table(after I was done) I took the kids and went across the street and purchased several gallons of orange juice and apple juice to stock the pantry of the donation center(it is important to drink juice or water, not soda, because soda is a diuretic). I wish I could do more and so do many of the other people who were in line. America has a fantastic reputation for pulling together in a time of crisis, and I consider myself privileged to have been in the same room with so many giving, caring people yesterday and today. If any of you can, please donate blood and/or support the Red Cross.
I'm including a snippet of an email sent out to us at work with contact info for the local Red Cross and donation info. If you're not in the DFW area, please look up your local chapter and ask what they need. Typically they need money because they can't ship supplies up there due to air travel restrictions.
If you would like to donate money, you can make checks payable to Red Cross, and mail directly to:
Red Cross
4800 Harry Hines Blvd.
Dallas, TX 75235
Writing DR789 in the memo line of your check will ensure the money goes directly to the victims of the WTC and Pentagon tragedies.
Or, you can call 1-800-HELP-NOW to make a donation by phone. For more information, go to the Red Cross website at www.redcross.org. Since they are having heavy web traffic today, you may or may not be able to access the site.
Steven
Re:Huge outpourings of generosity (Score:4, Insightful)
Steven
Parent
K.E. = .5 * m * v * v (Score:4, Informative)
Something I just thought of a little while ago, to help me gain some perspective on what happened:
A Boeing 767-400ER [boeing.com] has a maximum takeoff mass of a shade more than 200,000 kg. It has a typical cruise speed of 840 km/h.
Using our favorite formula for kinetic energy, that comes to about 5.6 billion Joules, or between one and two tons of TNT.
Or, in other words, just the force of that much mass at that speed is about the same as a WWII blockbuster bomb. Add in some twenty thousand gallons of jet fuel...and I still can't wrap my mind around that much destructive force.
And I thought cars on the freeway were deadly!
May such magnificient machines never again be used for such awful, awful purpose.
b&
They were NOT designed to take an aircraft impact. (Score:4, Insightful)
He said that the sprinkler systems were designed for paper, cardboard, and desk fire loads--jet fuel doesn't respond so well to water sprinklers, that's why the aviation buildings he designed have foam fire extinguisher systems--NOT water.
Once again, the architect of the trade towers themselves insisted that the buildings were prepared for any natural disaster, but that disasters like this could obviously *not* be prepared for.
He also said he didn't even know whether or not the sprinkler systems were activated, let alone helping or hindering matters any.
He said that the heat from the jet fuel melted the steel supports and that probably only a single floor gave way--but that the momentum from the drop (with all the floors above it) was enough to overload the supports below, and the supports below that, and so on right down to ground floor.
So please make the correction--they weren't designed to withstand jet impact. Maybe a propellor airplane, maybe not--I have no idea where you got that info from. Doesn't matter.
-sudog
link for the amazon.com/red cross fund (Score:5, Interesting)
To reiterate:
Donate money [amazon.com]
- Josh
Re:Article 5 (Score:5, Informative)
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all, and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective selfdefence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually, and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
F-bacher
Parent
Re:Speaking of PVRs... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm in the UK, and I have no PVR. This is a comment regarding motive & conclusions, not facts.
In that vein, and regardless of my feelings about the gentleman concerned, under the circumstances I am very prepared to cut him some slack. I wouldn't trust myself to get a 4-word sentence out straight if placed in a similar situation. Any assistance the man needed to get the right words out to the world would be very astute and appropriate.
All IMHO, obviously....
Parent
Re:Airport Security... Is that enough? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
FedEx hijacking (Score:4, Interesting)
The two pilots struggled to subdue the hijacker. They were able to hold him down enough that one pilot was able to take back the aircraft controls and pull the plane out of the dive. The plane exceeded Mach I during the dive, the pull-out stresses warped parts of the aircraft, and counterbalance weights in the tail were torn off. But the plane held together.
The plane was landed intact at Memphis, the hijacker was arrested, convicted, and is in prison, and one of the pilots was too injured to fly again. The plane itself was repaired and returned to service.
Parent
Re:Why the Surprise? (Score:5, Insightful)
bottom line: food, medicine, and other aid is readily offered to the people of Iraq. the government of Iraq (Saddam) will not allow this aid to be given, then turns and tells the people of Iraq that the US denies them food, medicine, and safety. that the US bombs them without cause.
maybe Saddam should stop trying to build biological weapons and allow his people to eat. but then he wouldn't have fear to rule them with.
i can't believe i am saying this, but perhaps Saddam should look to Khadafi (yes, Khadafi) as an example of a leader who sets aside his own goals and looks to provide his people with a future in the next century.
-sam
Parent
Re:MSNBC Article on BinLaden and CIA (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, this is true. I remember hearing about this shortly after the Embassy bombings a couple years ago. In fact, 60 minutes did a profile on Bin Laden and spoke to some of his then supporters in Congress. To say they were upset by the blowback would be an understatement.
We used the Third World (and I do mean we -- even if you didn't support it, we all payed taxes to support it whether you wanted to or not) as chess pieces in the Cold War. This geopolitical game of chess destroyed nations and killed millions of lives. It has tragically disrupted the lives of several billion people, and turned once self-reliant cultures into those begging children you see in those Save the Children commercials. Now we are all paying the price. The game is over, but the pieces haven't finished. Russia has to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who want to splinter the Russian Federation and just plain get revenge on them for Afghanistan. We have to deal with Saddam Hussein, the theocracy of Iran and the Afghani "freedom fighters" like Bin Laden. All cases of blowback.
One would hope we would have learned from these mistakes, but we never do...
Parent