Can Linux Dominate Smartphone OS? 125
Jeryl Kesh writes "Does Motorola's roaring success with its Linux-based 'Ming' phones in China indicate that the open-source platform is now a serious contender against Symbian and Windows Mobile in the handheld device software platform arena?
The world No. 2 mobile phone maker, which debuted the Ming smartphone in March this year in China, shipped more than one million Linux-based units in China alone last quarter, according to research firm Canalys. However with Nokia refusing to adopt Linux, Symbian remains by far the top mobile device OS, according to Canalys, with a 67 percent share, well ahead of second-place Windows Mobile, with 15 percent of the market.
Eirik Chambe-Eng, the co-founder of one of the most popular mobile Linux platforms, Norway-based TrollTech, has also reportedly predicted a 'revolution' in the use of open-source software on phones and handheld devices. His contention was that Linux gives handset manufacturers and OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) 'complete control,' and in turn keeps Microsoft and Symbian at bay."
Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:1, Interesting)
Thats all good so long as this translates to customer savings.... does it?
http://religiousfreaks.com/ [religiousfreaks.com]Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:1)
Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:1)
Or do you think Henry Ford sold the model T for the same price as a Rolls Royce?
Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:1, Insightful)
They weigh up all the costs of the various parts, the cost of integration of theose parts and the cost of testing them...
Linux is an OS, yes...but you need a lot more than an OS to make an integrated suite of apps that work seamlessly on a phone. I'd estimate that linux would probably make up less than 30% of the size of the rom in a phone, which may not be such a saving in costs.
Phones also have to be delivered within a
Re:Does that translate to customer savings? (Score:1)
Nokia has issues (Score:1, Troll)
JavaScript? Woot-Woot, I'm excited. Aren't you? Blah.
Re:Nokia has issues (Score:2, Informative)
Yes the Nokia 770 is not a GSM phone but It's a device capable of running many applications (like http://www.gizmoproject.com/ [gizmoproject.com] and http://www.google.com/talk/ [google.com] ). The software is based on debian and the http://maemo.org/ [maemo.org] platform.
I would say yes (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I would say yes (Score:4, Interesting)
T-mobile is a prime example of this, and probably the worst. There are some well known vulnerabilities in their network which apparently allow (or perhaps used to if they've fixed this) dishonest users to access the internet no matter what service they're supposed to get if they've hacked their phones. They're depending on the phones themselves for authentication because they know that not many people are going to be hacking their phones right now.
Linux would make that *a lot* easier to do, wouldn't it?
I hope so. (Score:4, Interesting)
I DO trust Linux.
Re:I hope so. (Score:2)
On a related note I did recently purchase a Linux based PMP- the Cowan A2. If only it had a phone and PDA features it would be perfect. Yes it's big but the battery lasts FOREVER and I find the tiny RAZR and below phones just too small to conveniently use. I like a big screen
Re:I hope so. (Score:2, Insightful)
I refuse to buy a phone that is based on MS or Symbian. I do NOT trust either of them, at all. I DO trust Linux.
What makes you trust a phone with Linux more than one with Windows or Symbian?
Are you planning on reloading the software on your phone? If you get, say, a T-Mobile phone running Linux, T-Mobile could have made whatever modifications they wanted to to the operating system.
I don't see why you should trust it more when it is easier for the wireless company to do whatever they want with your phon
Windows Mobile? 2nd place? My ass... (Score:3, Interesting)
Windows mobile is a joke (Score:5, Informative)
I won't get into the Blackberry, Symbian, Linux debate. They each have their merits. However, all three are leaps and bounds ahead of Windows Mobile. It's the biggest piece of garbage embedded OS I've ever seen.
Re:Windows mobile is a joke (Score:3, Informative)
Then of course there is the whole - going into flight mode all by itself issue, which doesn't require a reset, but leaves you without connectivity to anything outside.
Re:Windows mobile is a joke (Score:1)
Re:Windows mobile is a joke (Score:1)
Re:Windows mobile is a joke (Score:2)
You call it bad ? My Symbian OS Nokia 6600 rebooting itself twice a day sometimes, but no less then twice a week. At lest with Win Mobile you can reflash OS yourself for most of the models (no such luck for Symbian), and don't have to deal with Developer Cerificates and Symbian Signing process if you are programming using som
Re:Windows mobile is a joke (Score:1)
Number of problems is infinite. Build system (MS PlatformBuilder) looks outstanding, but unfortunately has plenty of bugs and build process can take 20 minutes (am not kidding) on the top of the line PC a
Linux is so versatile! (Score:2, Insightful)
Smart? (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank god I still have one of those "stupid" 5110's from Nokia.
Re:Smart? (Score:2)
If you are happy with you phone, excellent! There is no reason for you to upgrade (unless they suddenly discontinue letting your phone access the network, which happened here in the UK a couple of months ago).
Re:Smart? (Score:2)
Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
If there is some kind of Linux at the bottom of it - great, but running Linux is not much of a selling point if the UI is junk. I have an ADSL modem & wireless router which uses Linux. Fortunately it's an excellent bit of kit because I would curse it everyday no matter what OS was underneath if it wasn't.
Re:Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:1)
For example my SonyEricsson T610 has links to their WAP site nearly everywhere in the menus and that drives me mad - because I'm always one click away from spending money on a WAP site I don't want.
If I could hack my phone I'd remove this crap immediately.
Re:Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:2)
I care (Score:2)
Closed platforms make it hard to do these things, often try to tie me to their own proprietary desktop offerings, and try to hold my data hostage.
Re:I care (Score:2)
Re:I care (Score:2)
Filtering is what mobile providers are doing right now. Open platforms are the antidote to that. And, in the end, it's also good for mobile providers. In any case, given that several providers offer unlimited nationwide calling already, I doubt VoIP is a significant long term concern to providers.
Re:Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:2)
Bingo. For a phone the primary factor is usability. If the phone doesn't do what you want, when you want, in a way your grandma could figure out, it often ends up being a really expensive paperweight.
The way I see it a linux phone will succeed when it has two things: a consistent and easy to use UI that works just fine out of the box (no tweaking necessary), and strong affordable th
Re:Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now obviously you could do the same with natively compiled code if all phones used the same hardware but they don't. So I'm not sure how
Re:Does the os on a phone even matter? (Score:1)
No (Score:1)
Minging Tone (Score:2)
Re:Minging Tone (Score:2)
Re:Minging Tone (Score:2)
The meeting had dragged on for over two hours. Everybody was getting cross-eyed as the CFO continued to ramble on about currency fluctuations and their effects on the Windsor plant. Suddenly, Bill from Accounting felt a sinking feeling in the pit of his stomach as he felt his mobile vibrate, because he had forgotten to mute the ringtone. It was already too late...
"Shipments crossing the Ambassador Bridge by truck -- " Flash! Aahhhh! Saviour of the universe! [Brian May guitar riff]
I most certainly hope so (Score:3, Insightful)
Having used almost all currently available cell phone OSes (Palm OS on a Treo, Symbian on a P800, Mobile Windows on friends' phones and some weird choices like Ogo), I can say with some authority that they all suck. Well, "suck" may be a bit strong a word, but each of them has both huge shortcomings and lots of small areas where they simply don't pay enough attention to details.
What smart phones really need is for Apple to fix them. This probably won't happen, so the next best thing is a Linux based OS which allows us programmers to fix what the big companies don't seem to be capable of fixing.
Re:I most certainly hope so (Score:2)
Every time I use my symbian phone to make a call, check my email, or play some genesis games I always think, wow this would be so much better if I made an iCall, checked my iMail, and played some iGenesis! And if they could raise the free RAM needed from 10MB to 80MB, it'd be just like an apple desktop.
Meh, the world will pass on the iPhone.
Re:I most certainly hope so (Score:2)
I don't even like linux that much and I'd rather have a phone run linux. An ipod/phone might be interesting though. (not the cingular crap)
Re:I most certainly hope so (Score:1)
I don't even like linux that much and I'd rather have a phone run linux. An ipod/phone might be interesting though. (not the cingular crap) Apple dropped the Newton. And I owned a Newton (MP 130). I loved my Newton. And it's dead. Gone. It was a bitch to network when it was alive and viable. It'd take
And where is your point? (Score:2)
And where is your point?
The Newton is dead. Obviously, Apple would not use the Newton OS for a modern appliance.
Re:I most certainly hope so (Score:2)
Eat up, Martha! [wikipedia.org] In all seriousness, though, I loved the Newton, and was sad to see it go. I use Windows Mobile on my phone today, and am perfectly happy with it, although I think it may be a little daunting to some. Being able to program it using Visual Studio more than makes up for that, though.
You're describing MS, not Apple (Score:2)
What you're describing is what Microsoft does: Port Windows to anything that contains electricity on some way, shape or form. Apple works differently: Look at the iPod. Look at the Newton. They define how
Re:I most certainly hope so (Score:2)
Nokia Adopted Linux (Score:2, Interesting)
?? I smell FUD. They may not have gotten around to using Linux in their cell phones (yet), but as a company Nokia has definitely adopted [slashdot.org] and supports [nokia.com] Linux.
Oh really? (Score:2)
Re:Oh really? (Score:2)
Re:Oh really? (Score:2)
It's a software that lets you do things to your mobile phone. By not providing it or equivalent for linux (or any other platform than windows) or at least the neccessery information to access your data in your phone, Nokia stupidly gives the finger to it's paying customers.
Meamo anyone? (Score:5, Interesting)
Nokia has also been quite involved with OpenSource, particularly with their KHTML based browser that ships on S60 phones.
The point being, Nokia actually seems like a prime candidate for a Linux device. I would be SHOCKED if they didn't have one in the works right now. I would certainly expect them to have one in the market before the end of 2007. Every indicator points in that direction.
Re:Meamo anyone? (Score:1)
Yes, Nokia does Linux and is a hell of a lot more open with the platform in comparison to its competitors.
Re:Meamo anyone? (Score:2)
Ironically enough, this is probably one of the reasons Motorola is using Linux, because if they went with Symbian, they would be aiding the enemy.
Nokia + Symbian (Score:2)
Re:Nokia + Symbian (Score:1)
A Symbian license is how much? IIRC It used to be 5 bucks for a PDA, 10 for a smartphone. And a smartphone sells for what? Even if it's doubled since then, if you consider it as a percentage it's not a dealbreaker.
Re:Nokia + Symbian (Score:2)
Linux demand is growing (Score:5, Informative)
My company markets reference designs for handheld devices (typically cell phones, media players, etc..) to OEMs. Our customer demand for Linux has increased dramatically in the past year. We've doubled the size of our group, and we still can't hire engineers with Linux experience fast enough.
Yes, we do WinCE development too. But, the WinCE group not only has at least twice as many engineers, they are also behind the Linux group in terms of features. When it comes to rapid development, there's simply nothing better than Linux, because most of the work has already been done. This allows us to concentrate on adding features that differentiate us from the competition, rather than on merely getting something working.
But WinCE also places substantial roadblocks to rapid development. A routine build of WinCE takes 20 minutes; a clean build takes more than an hour. By comparison, our average Linux build time is about 30 seconds, with a clean build taking about 15 or 20 minutes. But it gets worse for WinCE:
Quite frankly, I'm glad to see the demand for Linux growing. However, I'm also putting in quite a bit of overtime because of it, so it is sort of a mixed blessing.
Re:Linux demand is growing (Score:3, Interesting)
The FAT32 filesystem is a major liability for embedded devices. Because of the fact that the disk head must seek back and forth from the filesystem table to the actual data, the effective data bitrate decreases with time. This means that WinCE has a maximum practical encoding time of about 1 hour; after that, the filesystem driver just can't keep up. We don't have this problem when using ext3 under Linux.
I think you've been drastically misinformed here. Head seeking between the drive's metadata and the d
Re:Linux demand is growing (Score:2)
Re:Linux demand is growing (Score:1)
World of good (Score:1)
Re:World of good (Score:1)
it's the UI, stupid (Score:2)
I haven't used WinCE derived stuff much, but Palm had a lead for years in the department.
I just wish there was some kind of toolkit for letting me roll my own UI (I had some very definate ideas about what an optimal TODO UI would look like for me [kisrael.com])-- and without resorting to Java. It's funny, for a language that was originally meant to make life cooler for mobile devices, it provides some of
One thing though: (Score:2)
two points (Score:3, Insightful)
Second, I'm wondering really how open the linux is that's installed on these phones. If proprietary interfaces and device drivers are used, it might as well be running symbian|windows|whatever. Could you develop an app for these phones as easily as you could for gnome/kde/etc, and release it 100% open source for use by others?
Re:two points (Score:2)
Actually, there really aren't, here in the US. Even the cheapest phone the service providers are willing to sell you has (for example) a color screen, at least.
Re:two points (Score:2)
Re:two points (Score:2)
True, but it won't work on the newer-technology networks, and the service providers may or may not allow it to be activated.
Symbian Signed making symbian Open Source harder (Score:5, Interesting)
Currently, there's loads of open source programs available for the symbian phones, especially series 60. With your choice of C++, Python or Java, it's easy to get started with writing code. Lots of apps drives consumer demand.
More recently, Nokia stopped supporting Linux for developing applications (previously there was decent support for Java, and help with C++). This makes it much much harder to develop S60 apps on Linux, so a load of potential developers won't bother.
The big issue now is symbian signed. With S60 version 3 onward, they've seriously locked down the platform. If your code isn't signed, it won't run on most devices, and even where it will, it won't be allowed to do interesting things (write to filesystem, talk to network etc). If you want to get your code signed, you have to have an expensive verisign certificate, and pay a bunch of cash to have your app reviewed.
In one fell swoop, almost all open source programs have stopped working on S60 version 3, and won't work again. All the developers are really pissed, and no-one's willing to talk about it from symbian (try emailing them about it, and they just mutter about python). All of a sudden, your new S60 phone is half useless, as you can't get any decent apps for it.
Not the brightest move ever.....
Symbian Signed: Not as smart as you think (Score:2, Informative)
For details about how to get freeware apps signed (for nothing) have a look here [symbiansigned.com].
Re:Symbian Signed: Not as smart as you think (Score:1)
Re:Symbian Signed: Not as smart as you think (Score:2)
Re:Symbian Signed: Not as smart as you think (Score:2)
Won't run on most devices??? (Score:2)
I was able to install Putty for Symbian OS [sourceforge.net] and other self signed software on my Nokia E series
Re:Won't run on most devices??? (Score:1)
Re:Won't run on most devices??? (Score:2)
Does this only apply if you download an unsigned app directly to the phone over an unfriendly network or do all unsigned apps in general refuse to install on a Symbian OS V.3. phone hooked up unfriendly network? What I did was I downloaded the app to a PC and then uploaded the *.sisx file to the phone via bluetooth and installed it manually by cli
Re:Symbian Signed making symbian Open Source harde (Score:1)
Teh evil system should be cracked. It's the future, and they can't stop it.
Re:Symbian Signed making symbian Open Source harde (Score:2)
There is some reasonable provision for freeware and OSS software under Platform Security, as o
Re:Symbian Signed making symbian Open Source harde (Score:2)
FUD. You can use self-signing [s60.com] and still make use of most features - file system access and opening network connections included.
Complete Control (Score:2)
I would imagine that it also empowers the users, as many of the licenses would require the cellphone providers to supply their code if they've used GPL components. Consequently, the phone-service providers probably wouldn't be very happy with this as it makes it easier to bypass their $2/ringtone and assorted other lockdowns and crippling of the phones they provide. Speaking of which, wh
Loopholes (Score:2)
You can also build your initial program loading firmware to refuse to run a kernel that's not signed with your company's crypto key. Then even if you provide all source to the device, no one else will be able to build a kernel image that will run on the device.
These measures might be circum
More Ming/A1200 Info (Score:1)
- How awful the handwriting recognition is?
- If it is possible to load my own code on it?
- If the Bluetooth is locked down or if it has DUN support?
- If the browser is any good?
- If it multitasks (lets me switch apps without losing my place in any of them, like a Blackberry and unlike Palm)?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can point me at in-for-mation
Justin
Not until it supports System-on-Chip ARMs (Score:1)
Go Finland (Score:1)
Re:Go Finland (Score:1)
Symbian is good! (Score:2, Informative)
It's more about platform stability (Score:2, Insightful)
in smartphones, Linux is #2. is this MS-FUD? (Score:2)
"Symbian remains by far the top mobile device OS, according to Canalys, with a 67 percent share, well ahead of second-place Windows Mobile, with 15 percent of the market."
Why the switch from comparing smartphone OS's to the state of "mobile devices"?
There is enough in the article to make it look like valid research but this is a blatant flaw IMO. Most of the article is about smartphones except where it goes and switches to comparing marketshare of mobile devices.
Windows Mobile Less Reliable Than Win95 (Score:1)
Service: 4/10
Hardware: 9/10
Software: 2/10
In terms of hardware, the phone is great, but when it comes to software, I have a hard time imagining anyone doing worse. It takes a ridiculous number of 'keypresses' (it's a touch screen) to simply add someone to my address book. Even worse, however, is that the phone **crashes**. My cell phone actually will simply up and reboot, or the system will hang until I power it down. I for one cannot
Sunk costs and future use (Score:2)
Why Symbian rules (Score:1)
Having said this, they a
Re:Why Symbian rules (Score:1)
Symbian has a big API which is understandable given that it covers multimedia, UIs and a lot of different types of networking. The documentation for almost all of that is freely available as are the SDKs.
One has to pay to get a copy of the source code, however, and access to the more volatile APIs that aren't evenly supported by all devices or that might pose some degree of security risk. This tends to include some of the telephony s
Re:Why Symbian rules (Score:1)
Now about this issue, we didn't want your source code. We believe in your good work, but we wanted simple access to your "volatile" functionality that would be used in a non-commercial and purely educational manner. We were not looking for a license.
The idea that your guys were bargaining with us just to USE your software capabilities was frankly very weird. You're supposed to be pleased that we are doing amazing things with your OS. We were developing a SIP stack (and applicatio
Re:Why Symbian rules (Score:1)
OK, the opinions here are my own personal ones and in no way represent any other person or entity. It's also not guaranteed to be accurate.
I have seen the issue from both sides and I basically agree that getting in the way of developers is very bad. I think that the issue will become much less important thanks to the "firming up" of some APIs and the fact that manufacturers support them better.
The certificate stuff is pretty much an answer for the security argument against releasing APIs. It will stop
Linux won't, but virtualised linux might... (Score:1)
Linux itself has a number of issues which have been outlined in various other comments. Lack of proper real-time support, speed on ARM, reliability and security. While these probably limit how useful Linux can be, there is a solution being developed. Two companies in particular are building it: Jaluna [jaluna.com] and ERTOS at NICTA [nicta.com.au]. That solution is para-virtualising linux on top of a fast, real-time, and secure operating system. Performance, I hear you say? The ERTOS solution is so fast that in some cases it out
Motorola + Linux != Open platform (Score:2)
Motorola doesn't encourage or support native application development. They tell you to use Java. Some parts of the phones are completely undocumented (e.g. the GPS part of the A780). Access from Java is possible but not native access (OK, hackers built an Java proxy as a workaround, but the point is that it is not officially supported). You don't get access to built-in phonebook, etc. pp.
It took months before someone ma
Re:Windows Mobile? (Score:2)
Re:Windows Mobile? (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a market share study by Gartner [linuxdevices.com] for worldwide shipments. Note that it counts windows smartphones only and not PDA phones. (Smartphones do not have the touch screen; instead, they have a numeric keypad like a normal phone.)
Microsoft's recent earings call [msmobiles.com] indicates that their market share is increasing -- the article quotes a 90% increase. These statistics don't seem to include Linux based phones.
There's been more selection from Symbian phones in the past, but right now there's more Windows Mobile devices available in the USA. Symbian has also been in the market longer.
This article [windowsfordevices.com] states that Microsoft has a 17% market share and some analyst expects their market share to grow.
Note that almost all Linux phones are shipped in Asia -- I have never seen a Linux phone for sale in the United States, but plenty of Windows phones and a few Symbian ones. The number of Symbian devices available retail from cellular providers seems to be declining here.
I personally use a Symbian phone.
Re:Windows Mobile? (Score:1)
The Motorola Ming ships outside of Asia as the Motorola A1200. You might've seen that around.
Re:Windows Mobile? (Score:3, Interesting)
According to everything I've read via Google, the phone is primarily for Asian markets.
"This Linux PDA-phone for Asia" [phonescoop.com]
The A1200 is expected to launch in China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong in mid-February, with US availability sometime after that. [linuxdevices.com]
As far as I can tell, this US availability has yet to surface and this phone is only available imported and is not actively sold/carried by any US provider.