Add-Ons Add Up 401
The Washington Post has a story about the proliferation of extra fees tacked on to just about every product or service under the sun. A couple of good insights make it worth the read.
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Vancouver Airport (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2, Funny)
With a bit of luck, you'd be deported and have your return journey paid too.
Ahhh, the old screw you foreigner tax. (Score:4, Interesting)
*Cough*. B-S. *Cough*.
My boss, who worked for CNN for decades was recently in Mexico, and he just keeps a wad of cash with him when he pulls out his news camera to work down there. I'd say about 1/3 of the people that I have talked to about Mexico have been shaken down by the police because they are foreign.
Needless to say, I went to Mexico. Great place. Same place as the relatives. No plane fee for me leaving. Surprise. But you can bank it that I had at least 50 USD for me and my wife when we got on the plane.
After all, in Mexico policing is a for profit business. You should assume like I do that the police are massively crooked whenever you go to a foreign nation, and be surprised when they are not.
while in USA everything is a for profit business? (Score:4, Interesting)
I kind of assumed in USA *everything* was a "for profit business".
Certainly US-slashdot posters often indicate a preference for no government unless avoidable, no taxes where possible, etc. I read this as one of the messages from the original article, that local authorities were collecting income from people through indirect taxation rather than direct taxation.
Maybe things just cost money, and paying for them ultimately comes down to each of us, but it simply boils down to how the organisations get the money out of us.
(BTW I find your assumption that "police are massively crooked whenever you go to a foreign nation", i.e. the whole world is crooked apart from the USA, naive and xenophobic to say the least. Some of your police hardly have an international reputation for integrity).
Re:while in USA everything is a for profit busines (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because we like to blame our problems on everything. Our news has to have something to blame. Our politicians do it too. We like to complain, because if we didn't everything would be boring and we would have no goals. Its good that people feel insecure so they will be driven to spend money on ways to feel safe. Actually, its very peaceful here in the USA. Just don't tell anyone.
Re:Ahhh, the old screw you foreigner tax. (Score:3, Informative)
Dammit, i'm a Mexican and I really would like to deny what you're saying. Sadly enough, in many backwater parts of the country that's just too true. And it's not only for tourists either.
All I can do is to apologize in behalf of the honest, working people in the rest of the country, and hope that those idiots come to realize that scaring away tourists is not gonna help this country at all.
Re:Ahhh, the old screw you foreigner tax. (Score:3, Insightful)
While it is apparently true on the surface that many foreign police agencies are obviously corrupt, the situation isn't really much different here, it's just done in a much more civilized manner. In clearly poor countries such as Mexico, profit must be generated at the individual level. It is up to the underpaid policemen to subsidize their own life style, whether that means supporting a family or a cocaine habit.
In countries such as Mexico and Colombia where a lot of illegal drugs are produced / manufactured / distributed, the value of the drugs themselves is miniscule compared to what it is once it reaches our shores. We say that "other governments" have "corrupt" police forces, but consider that our own police agencies directly profit off of the drug trade. How so?
Duh. Through property forfeiture and seizure, of course. In some states, you can lose your car for simply having a joint in your possession and getting pulled over for a minor offense. You can just as easily lose your house and other assets if they can claim that you couldn't afford it without illicit drug sales. In most cases, no due process or even conviction is required. And what happens once that property is seized? It gets sold, and the money goes back to the police force. In many cases, this property was in fact purchased with drug money, and the police essentially turn that drug / blood money into their own, profiting from it. In many cases, this property was not in fact purchased with drug money, but it is still seized and auctioned anyway, and nobody is the wiser. Nothing can be done about it until enough people support ballot initiatives to reform this horrific practice.
Some might not call this "corruption" but the fact remains that by perpetuating this cycle, the police are essentially profiting directly off of the incredibly inflated drug trade in the US. As long as they continue to do so, there will be no true incentive to "end the war on drugs," but to perpetuate it for eternity. That's whole idea, isn't it? Not to actually "win a war," but to constantly justify a war either by pointing out its meager successes, or its persistent failures. "We can't give up now...almost there." Even if there was a way to win this "war," the government truly would not want to do so. Do you have any idea of how many electronic appliances, among other things, are purchased directly by foreign nationals with obvious drug trafficking connections? Our entire economy rests on a foundation of illegitimacy, of corruption, what have you. There's no turning back, at least from the perspective of those with the power to make a difference.
Not only is corruption inherently built into our system in this way among many others, but there are plenty of cases of "truly," directly corrupt officers who look the other way in certain cases, plant evidence in others, or just wreak havok in general on the so-called justice-system by looking out after their own interests before all others. It's human nature, after all.
So in the US we are fleeced in that we pay monstrous taxes to subsidize the federal and local police forces, who spend much of our money fighting a losing war in order to justify their bloated existence. Not only that, but we pay taxes to subsidized tobacco farmers, who produce one of the most addictive and dangerous (and widely used drugs) known to man! We constantly are asked to pay extra fees to support supposedly capitalistic enterprises that cannot support themselves due to their excessive, bloated, inherently un-capitalistic nature. We must subsidize failure on a regular basis, in order save face for those who would rather not admit such.
In Mexico it might be common to get shaken-down at the individual level and be forced to part with some hard-earned cash. In the US, we are fleeced systematically, every day. I have a Discover Card with "no annual fee," yet I was charged $6.08 in "finance charges" last month, when I kept a totally empty balance! That's one minor example, of course...but don't think the US is any more civilized simply because our money is transferred out of pocket electronically and in a stealthy fashion, whereas in other countries it must be yanked the old-fashioned way...
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2)
I can't wait to see the airport improvements next time I go back!
Seriously though in most other nations they just put this tax in the price of the ticket. That way you never get hit up for the cash. Clever huh?
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2)
That is, if you're able to depart Bali still alive.
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:5, Informative)
The good ol' Canadian Govt (swindlers 'r' us), are also charging an additiona $20-25 in "security fees" each way as well. Not to say that any of it goes to airports to improve security. Nope, it all goes into general revenue in Ottawa.
One local carrier had a "fly for $1" day to illustrate how insane the fees were. The ticket cost $1, with all of the extra fees, levies, etc added on, the final cost of the ticket was nearly $100.
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2)
Just for reference, the Airport Improvement Fee is essentially a toll fee that goes towards the cost of the new terminal (just completed within the past couple of years).
Not that I expect them to remove the fee once the terminal is paid off - that's the real catch in these kinds of fees. The system gets used to the cash influx and comes to regard it as some kind of inherent right, rather than as a temporary measure (kind of like income tax was?).
Re:Vancouver Airport (Score:2)
I believe there is also a smaller fee for domestic flights within China, but it's been a few years so I forget how much that one was.
Yeah... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Yeah...but... (Score:2, Interesting)
With other fees (car rentals fees, atm fees, airplane ticket fees), if you wanna use these services and opt out of these *cough*bullshit*cough* fees, you are SHIT OUT OF LUCK! :(
Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:5, Interesting)
I hate that sort of thing. It first really hit me when I got an unexpected $1 fee for using an ATM. Not the fee from the ATM's owner--a fee from MY OWN BANK for not using a preferred ATM network! After that I just came unglued (switched banks too).
In the end, I think it's all just part of the game. Most people are so jaded about "the value of service" anymore that the only way to sell something is with the lowest price. A lot of these fees serve no other function than to allow the price to represent the real value of whatever it is you're paying for. No longer do we live in an age where many aspects of the transaction are rolled into an "overhead account". Everything seems to be billed in excruciating detail!
While it largely makes sense, I long for the days when bills were simpler.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:5, Interesting)
But doesn't handling cash and checks cost money, too? Armored cars and local security to guard the cash, and someone gets paid to take the checks to the bank. I don't know if it compares to credit card fees, but don't discount the cost of cash and checks.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, but the difference is that with cc transactions the company you are buying from gets a bill from the credit card processing company for using the service, a fee that the company would not have had with a paper transaction.
With paper money the cost is internal to the business so it does not get added on extra. If they just raised the price of every item a few dollars that would 'punish' those that want to pay with cash.
What it comes down to is you have to pay the workers to cover the cash register anyway, but you don't have to pay the charges to use a cc processing company.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:3, Insightful)
If they don't like the extra 3%, then the ought to pay using a debit card. If they normally buy things with money that they don't have, then they should be used to being ass-raped by the credit-card companies.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:3, Informative)
If they don't like the extra 3%, then the ought to pay using a debit card.
If they like federal fraud protection and some remote resemblence of accountability from the financial institution they should avoid debit cards like the plauge.
There is always two sides to any issue. I use my credit card like a debit card, simply because I don't like being liable for a several thousand dollar piece of plastic.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:5, Informative)
*chuckle* Debit cards charge a higher fee, closer to 5%, if memory serves. Many retailers would rather not accept debit cards, but at the moment, Visa and MasterCard are demanding that if a store accepts their credit cards, it must accept their debit cards, too. There is currently a class action lawsuit going on (or there was, last time I heard) to settle whether or not this is illegal bundling of services. If the retailers are victorious, debit cards will no longer be accepted at many places, and Visa and MasterCard will likely go bankrupt as well because of the massive damages that the retailers are claiming (won't affect you as a cardholder, the debtors will just take over and it'll be business as usual).
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:3, Informative)
Be Careful (Score:4, Interesting)
I know of many restaurants in NY which rather than take the 3% loss on transactions (which at busy places can cost tens of thousands at the end of the year), have an ATM installed on site. Wanna pay by CC? Sure, go use the ATM. Now instead of losing 3% on the sale, the business gains $1.00 (other $1.00 goes to ATM vendor).
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:5, Informative)
Most (if not all) credit card companies have policies against charging extra for credit card transactions.
http://usa.visa.com/personal/about_visa/contact_u
From Visa's web site:
Can merchants set a minimum purchase or charge me a fee for accepting my Visa card?
Visa merchants are not permitted to establish minimum transaction amounts, even on sale items. They also are not permitted to charge you a fee when you want to use your Visa card.
If you run into a problem like this with a merchant, please notify the financial institution that issued you your Visa card. These institutions have access to the appropriate Visa rules and regulations and can help you document and file your complaint. You'll find their address and/or telephone number on your Visa statement. Their telephone number may also appear on the back of the card itself.
Re:They have the right? (Score:3, Interesting)
Can you say "oligopoly", boys and girls? Just like a monopoly, but instead of having just one company controlling everything, there's two or three, and they all set the same fees and policies and don't actively compete against each other.
You'll never hear an advertisement that Visa is better than Mastercard - just better than American Express. You'll never hear an advertisement that Mastercard is better than Visa either. In fact, I don't really remember Discover ads mentioning either Visa or Mastercard. Hmmm.
Re:ebay too (Score:3, Informative)
You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:3, Interesting)
There are 2 types of ATM usage, the banking jargon usually refers to "domestic" and "foreign" but that is in relation to a bank. So Bank X's card on Bank X's ATM is a 'dmestic transaction" or an "us-on-us" transaction.
For us-on-us transactions, they are almost always free - the cost for maintaining the ATMs and the network is figured into the normal account setup.
For us-on-them transactions, it gets messy. First, the owner of the ATM will almost always charge you a dollar or two for using their machine when you don't bank with them. That is the fee you are prompted for on the screen.
Now, Bank X's ATMs don't have access to Bank Y's accounts. This is reasonable, Chase isn't going to give Wells-Fargo access to ttheir systems, for example. So to facilitate this, their must be a middle clearinghouse that facilitates transferring the money and providing a standard network interface. This is the Plus, Cirrus, etc network. These are independent companies, or sometimes banks. In this area, Midwest Payment Systems is dominant, owned by Fifth Third Bank, for example.
This clearinghouse network charges the bank the card is from a fee for facilitating the transfer of money. That is why your own bank charged you a fee.
My suggestion is to find a bank with a large ATM network if you are interested in avoiding fees. For better or worse, its the system that is there.
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:2)
Have you checked your merchant agreement - many do not allow tagging on a fee for CC's or requiring a minimum purchase. Some companies add the fee in the price and then offer a discount for cash.
I'm not sure what a CC company would do if someone complained? Back-charge the 3%? Cut off the vendor if enough people complained?
Re:Per Transaction Fees Suck... (Score:2)
Rules may have changed, but the last I checked, a merchant may, however, offer a discount from the stated price for those paying with cash.
hum...... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:hum...... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:hum...... (Score:3, Funny)
Car-rental extras... (Score:5, Informative)
- extra local taxes
- the hard-sell "collision damage waiver,"
- the charge for an extra driver
- the ever-popular "refueling charge" should you not fill up the tank.
- At the San Francisco airport a $12 surcharge helps pay for the car-rental shuttle bus
- a state-mandated $10 at Boston's Logan Airport helps fund the city's new convention center
- last month, also in Boston, Dollar Rent a Car slapped on a $1.84 daily "peak-season" fee
I am renting a car in the near future, where they also threw on a "Premium Station Surcharge" for picking the car up from the airport instead of a local station. That comes to around 20USD. Plus, often, you have limited kilometres, so you had better count on adding on a few dollars if you go too far....Yes (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know what the hell they are building in Houston that justifies that level of extra tax and local fees, (airport tax, use tax, local tax, etc, etc).
That kind of nonsense kills me... "Oh, did I mention that a few additional charges and taxes are added... that'll be DOUBLE what you thought it would be! Thanks for doing business with us!"
Yeah, thanks... it was good for me too.
Re:Yes (Score:2, Flamebait)
"Welcome to $BUSINESS, assume the position!"
Re:Car-rental extras... (Score:4, Interesting)
Paying a surcharge for a "surcharge waiver" (Score:3, Interesting)
The article is dead-on: people are willing to pay for convenience.
Re:Car-rental extras... (Score:2)
The rental company took it upon themselves to charge me for 2 gallons at $3.99 a gallon! They slipped it by me too, since we were in a hurry for our flight.
Fortunately a later complaint got the charges removed, but they probably slip it by lots of people. Makes me wonder if they special-ordered the car with the gauges set that way.
And don't forget trucks, too. (Score:2)
I'm hoping I don't have to move again anytime soon, because that was painful. Big signs anywhere about it being 19.95. If you expect to spend anywhere *near* that, you'd better be moving to someplace down the block, because the extra mileage is super-expensive. And, of course, very similar surcharges everywhere.
And they tried to give us a truck with a half-empty gas tank, and then tell us that there was a refueling fee if it wasn't returned at the same point.
"To pay for you to put gas into the truck... the same way you obviously didn't?"
We got given another truck.
Sounds like a case for the Advertising Lullaby... (Score:4, Funny)
Basically he says that the marketing and advertsing people pull the wool over the eyes of the consumer with friendly deals and offers that the consumers dont realize they're being, as Carlin puts it, fucked in the ass! Good stuff, LOL :)
I noticed this.. (Score:4, Interesting)
It definitely makes you think though. I noticed all the extra taxes and fees and such on my phone bill, but like the article says, I never paid a great deal of attention to them. Now I'm going to start shopping around and see what better deals I can get.
Re:I noticed this.. (Score:2)
Not that I want to defend WM, (I have issues with them as well) but I do believe you may be unfairly criticizing them here. Could you be more specific as to what they have so unjustly charged you for?
Their ads simply claim to offer free checking, which they do. I've had an account there for many years and never been charged for checking. Yes I have to pay for a new box of checks or extra copies of my statement. But, these are optional and they won't charge you until you request it. I find it especially amusing that you pick on the only major bank not to charge extra fees at their ATMs.
And a bank charging for extra services is entirely different than your phone company or the rental agency adding on hidden fees and taxes that you are not able to opt out of.
bastards (Score:4, Interesting)
so if i don't carry jack shit of baggage (as I frequently do, to skip the baggage claim phase), I don't get a discount - so what justifies this?
they should not make stupid excuses and just admit that they are giving it to the consumers and laughing all the way to the bank about it. sheesh.
Re:bastards (Score:3, Insightful)
Your argument might make sense if there were a lot of people who wanted to exceed the limit, but couldn't. Then, maybe, it would make sense for the airline to pay you for your weight allowance, so that they can sell it to someone else. As it stands though, they don't need to do that.
Seriously, I don't get what the problem is. United isn't a freight service. If you've got a lot of shit you want to take, ship it. If you want to take it on the plane with you, you have to recognize that not everyone can do that. The limit is pretty damn generous, too. I have to take all my stuff back and forth to college with me, and I only occasionally rub up against the limit (and even then I can almost always shuffle things around so that no one bag goes over).
Re:bastards (Score:2)
If everyone took their allowance they wouldn't be able to take off, they'd have empty seats because people wouldn't be able to travel with their luggage.
They assume that 20% will only have a light bag, 40% will be well short of allowances and of the rest a small number will have excess and be CHARGED for it.
Re:bastards (Score:2)
(of course, some funny slashdotter will go there with 50 empty boxes)
Trim factor and Weight and balance Security (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know for sure how are the security/economics zone for trim factor, but i know we had a problem with that recently for some airline and had to change our seat mapping.
DMV (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DMV (Score:5, Funny)
You might as well call it the "I would rather stab myself in the eye repeatedly with a pencil than pay this,but i have no choice fee" fee.
Re:DMV (Score:3, Funny)
Re:DMV (Score:2)
At least you would have wasted their "three fithy's" worth of time (as they had already made you waste yours).
Re:DMV (Score:5, Funny)
Can I pick it up later? "£20 reservation fee"
Thats 10% of the cost of the telly! Can you deliver it? "£25 delivery charge"
Fuck this! Can I have my money back? "you can have vouchers less 10%, its policy to stop people stealing and returning goods!"
I left with my cash. He pretended to phone his bosses boss to authorise it - I could hear greensleeves play while he was saying 'seems genuine enough, he handed me the cash 2 minutes ago, yeah the ordering system must be offline or something'. Little shit.
Swimming Competitions (Score:4, Interesting)
Something similar has been going on for years with my swimming club. Every year, we hold a few "District Meets" where every club in the district competes against each other. The club that hosts the meet has to arrange everything, get there early to set up and so on.
And yet EVERY swimmer, even those who got there early to set up, are charged for admission and also PER-EVENT they are swimming!
Now, the swimming officials have to be supplied by Swimming Victoria (the state-based overseeing body), but they are volunteers who receive no money.
So, although Swimming Victoria only provide us with volunteer officials, they make a few thousand dollars while doing bugger all.
It has even reached the point where parents arriving to pick up their kids at the end of the meet must pay a "spectator fee" or wait outside the pool - they can't walk in and grab their kid!
Re:Swimming Competitions (Score:2)
So let me guess... to avoid the fees, the parents have the children wait outside...
I'm not a parent, but I've got to say that this is fucking criminal. It's like a "Less of a chance my child will be kidnapped by a pedophile" fee. It's fucking extortion.
Wait until something happens to one of these unsupervised children, and the lawsuit hits the fan. After that (if the pool is still operational) they'll probably not only stop charging but in fact REQUIRE parents to drop in and show I.D. to prove they are the proper parent.
Sheesh.
Fuck banks (Score:4, Insightful)
I've had it with Bank One. My next paycheck is going into a new checking account with a new bank that isn't going to hold me upside down and shake me for loose change.
Re:Fuck banks (Score:3, Informative)
Jesus. I've seen my bank do the opposite - reorder so I didn't overdraft. Did I say bank? I meant Credit Union, which AFAICT is the only way to not be fucked in the ass. I left Fleet due to their add-on fees.
Re:Fuck banks (Score:2)
I kept them, even after moving out of their state, because they're such an improvement on any bank.
Re:Fuck banks (Score:2)
Re:Fuck banks (Score:2)
Re:Fuck banks (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Fuck banks (Score:4, Informative)
For example, you have $100 in your checking account. You deposit $500 on Monday. On Tuesday you write checks for $25 and $80. On Wednesday you write a check for $100. When you check your balance on Friday, you see that the $100 check is posted first, and depending on fees your bank levies against you, they hit you for a $25 overdraft fee. Then the $25 and $80 checks are posted: two more $25 overdraft charges. Then your deposit is posted on Wednesday or Thursday. So you expect your balance on Friday to be $395. Bzzt! Your bank has you for $320.
Again, I keep a balance above $500, mainly because of this bullshit practice. Yet, it galls me that I have to wait three days for a deposit to be posted when my bank charges me $3 for teller assistance. That's worse than any $2.50 ATM charge (which I never pay) in my book.
Re:Fuck banks (Score:2)
I now bank with LaSalle. They're pretty good. I'm very happy with them.
be careful out there - it's a dark world (Score:5, Informative)
When I returned it, they charged me 110 dollar *per*day* of "under age fee" because I am under 25. AND they taxed the fscking fee (at the same 17-18% rate which I have no idea where comes from)! is that funny, eh? considering in CA AVIS charges like 10-15 dollars for the same underage deal, I can just smell "bullshit."
If I didn't check the reciept, they'd probabbly just let it slip (I think if you don't file a complaint right away or some such, you waive your rights after a certain time). Eventually it got sorted out and such, but still it took a several phone calls, placed on hold, explanations, transfered, re-explanations, the whole works.
Point is, be careful out there, guys (and gals) - companies will rape you when they have the chance, so check your bills and add things up. And yeah - renting from AVIS in LGA is not a good idea.
New definition of 'free market' (Score:2)
Free Market: "The freedom to convince the consumer you offer the lowest prices by aggressive advertisement based on misleading emotional impulses and the freedom to compensate the low, listed, prices by post-charging costumers for things that really should be included in the fees charged up-front."
Or, in plain english, lying about the real price of things.
UK seems a little better. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:UK seems a little better. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:UK seems a little better. (Score:4, Funny)
Reasons for surcharges (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Reasons for surcharges (Score:5, Funny)
*Cough* I live in New Hampshire, you insensitive clod!
Re:Reasons for surcharges (Score:4, Funny)
plus. you live in new hampshire. 'nuff said.
please do include taxes (Score:2)
Should I care about the f*cking business model? (Score:3)
Yeah, and I feel that it would be better if you could itemize your entire business model on my bill. I mean WTF? Do I really need to know how they run their business? No; I really don't give a rat's ass.
Oh, but that would mean you would have to raise the price that we agreed to in our contract, doesn't it. The same contract that is 500 pages long, all worded in _your_ favor, but you couldn't find one single section that allowed you to increase the rate that was agreed upon. And now you decided that your business 'needed to recover' some cost so you just 'added a special line'.
I know I'm on a long rant here, but let me say this: I'm getting SICK AND TIRED of these f*cking companies that make me agree to pages and pages of agreements and yet there is no credibility on their side. What's wrong with people? It's like no-one is willing to stand behind their product. If they screw up I am turning out to be the person to pay for it. Damn that pisses me off.
Anyways, I'd like to thank
Cable Companies (Score:4, Interesting)
Their new Digital Cable package sounded a lot cheaper, but adding in the little extra charges that they include, I was paying even more per-month... I canceled on the spot.
Most people may not notice, but I notice, and I reject it on principal alone, not to mention that going with the seemingly more expensive options usually save you money in the end.
Oh, the fees you'll pay! (Score:2, Flamebait)
The one that really gets me is a %5 tax on my phone bill to pay for WW2! WW2 has been over forever, but that tax put there to pay for it still is being collected.
Or the %20 in federal taxes added to airline tickets (one of which is the insulting 9/11 fee- a tragedy that wouldn't have occurred if the feds hadn't stopped pilots from carrying guns to prevent hijackings, and taken over airport security, ensuring poor security.)
Then there's the %50 fee on gas, that you never see because its built into the price- but is all tax. A brilliant deception because people all over hate oil companies for charging so much for gas, even though they aren't!
And in my state liquor is market up about %50, of course since the state owns all the stores where you can buy it, you never see this add on fee- its built into the price.
And lets not forget cigarettes-- a %50 markup in my state as well. But you don't see this fee because its built into the price. Another hidden tax. And people hate tobacco companies, hmm, noticing a trend.
Now the scum are starting to propose "vice" fees on fattening foots, so we can expect to pay an extra %50 for the privilege of buying a big mac that big momma government doesn't want you to eat?
Never mind the fees that you have to pay before you even get the money that you use to pay fees with!
The %15 taken out for social security-- you'll never see that money again.
The hidden income taxes that your employer "pays" but that you really are the one paying-- for instance unemployment insurance. (Let me buy it privately- I know I'll get a better deal! When they charge you four times as much as the service costs, how much of it is really taxes?)
Not to mention workers comp. I'm a programmer. Why do I have to pay workers comp-- again, let me keep my own damn money and I'll buy my own insurance and get a much better deal!
(And if you think its not your own money, the employer pays for it, you might be a liberal. This is an absurd distinction- every employer counts all these taxes in the total cost of employing you and so you must be worth more than that to the employer for them to hire you-- that is you have to earn all the money, plus their profit, to make it worth while to hire you. If they didn't have to pay so many fees, you would get more cash, because you'd still earn the same amount of profit for them that you do now.)
Even if you only make $36k a year- the average salary- you're paying half your income in taxes- and that's just direct. The things you buy, would be %30 or more cheaper if there wasn't a federal income tax, etc. (And the value of the services you get from the government? Less than %10 of what you pay in taxes-- thats how much you're being ripped off.)
AS they say, if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
So I don't mind companies adding fees- if I don't like them, I can always refuse to do business with them, they need them anyway to cover the ever increasing tax burden they are being saddled with-- and that tax burden you don't get to opt out of if you don't like it.
At least let us invest our own social security money if we choose to-- there's no acceptable reason not to, unless it really is just a fund for the congress to raid whenever they want a raise.
Re:Oh, the fees you'll pay! (Score:3, Insightful)
You seem to have a problem with taxes that are included in the prices. I absolutely don't. I don't care what fraction of my gas money goes to the government when I buy gas; I care about that only when I go to the election box (and then, I think that gas taxes are actually too low).
And the value of the services you get from the government? Less than %10 of what you pay in taxes-- thats how much you're being ripped off.
Yes, and do you know where most discretionary spending is going? It's going into the defense budget. Those supposedly fiscally conservative Republicans are outdoing themselves in spending money. I agree I'm being ripped off by this, but what can I do?
At least let us invest our own social security money if we choose to-- there's no acceptable reason not to, unless it really is just a fund for the congress to raid whenever they want a raise.
Social security is not a retirement plan, it's a fall-back. It doesn't make sense for you to invest it yourself.
EXTRA EXTRA! EXTRANEOUS FEES PILE UP! (Score:3, Funny)
Thailand (Score:2, Funny)
Happened to me... (Score:5, Informative)
I got my first credit card so I could get an Internet account. The interest on it was outrageous so I paid it off monthly.
This went on for years until one morning I discovered my car had been stolen. Fearing that there might have been some old mail in the glove compartment, I got all of my cards(including other cards at better interest rates) cancelled, reported as stolen, and reissued with a different number.
While calling people who charged my first credit card monthly(three accounts and a few online services) I accidentally gave them the number of one of my newer cards. I didn't bother making the necessary corrections because it didn't matter to me.
A week later, the issuer of the first card sent a replacement but left the expiration date the same which was two months away. I put it away and ignored it.
The date of expiration on the card came and went and I got nothing. Not having any outstanding balance and not receiving any mention from the issuer I assumed they had dropped me.
Two years later, I get a monthly statement from these guys. Surprised, I look at it and it's several dollars for maintenance. It seems that they assumed I still had a valid card and since I did not use it they were going to charge me for the honor of not using it(a new policy it seems).
Politely, I explained that they never issued me an updated card, their interest rates were too high, they could cancel my card, and I wasn't paying the fee. Worked like a charm.
On a side note: for the few who read this, it *really* pays to call your credit card issuer, act dumb, and ask them why their interest rates are so high(even if they aren't).
Tell them about all the mail you get about other issuers promising lower interest rates(you get those all the time, remember those numbers).
Tell them about how those cards are offering to transfer your balance for *free*.
Explain that you like to do business with them but those offers are tempting and, "Is there anything you can do?"
Although I have relatively good credit(I think) I have heard from others that this will work even if you are really bad. The worse thing that can happen is they say no and you can brush it off with an "OK, just checking" attitude.
Try it. It *REALLY* works!
Re:Happened to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
Blockquoth the poster:
I'd like to second this bit of advice. I got one of my cards lowered from 14.99% to 9.99% in two calls using this very tactic.
I blame myself... (Score:4, Informative)
As the article says, the fees that are shown separately as fees are done so very intentionally...You don't see anywhere on your wireless bills your share of the $415,000 in PAC campaign contributions that SBC made [citizen.org] in 2002 alone. Or, the $548,000 that AT&T made.
Or, conversely, that they receive millions in 'corporate welfare' every year in the forms of subsidies and tax breaks that don't translate into lower prices, but....You guessed it:
Higher profits!
buy vouchers (Score:4, Insightful)
In general, people should have the option of negotiating specific, binding contracts with sellers or service providers, be it in the travel industry or anywhere else, with full disclosure of all fees ahead of time, and with a well-specified duration. On the other hand, doing business under contracts that give companies the option of changing their contractual obligations unilaterally at any time should simply be outlawed. Until it is, do business with companies that make commitments.
UK situation... (Score:2)
Bollocks.
For starters, instead of charging tuition fees like they do south of the border (this is so the LibDems, a minority party with the balance of power up here, can claim that they honoured their pledge to scrap them) they merely charge you two grand when you graduate.
And then there's the student loans. Instead of actually giving you a grant so you can live (as they did back in the day), they give you a paltry amount (based on how much your parents could give you if they didn't do anything but give you all their spare cash) then start charging you interest on it at the rate of inflation.
Of course, the unis can charge what they like for the 10by10 foot box they make you live in. And there's all sorts of hidden costs, like printer accounts, matric cards, lab fees, key deposits, beer at the union
We're getting screwed over. And do you know what? They start on us once we're old enough to get credit. It's things like this that make me want to pay cash for everything.
Point by Point (Score:5, Informative)
Yet, do they charge less for customers who use less than average? I think not.
Sprint decided to charge some of its PCS wireless customers -- primarily those with poor credit ratings who were on a special price plan -- $3 when they wanted to speak to a customer-service representative.
The less money you have, the more expensive everything is for you. The more expensive everything is for you, the less money you have. Now even insurance companies charge you more if you have less-than-perfect credit. Cell phone companies charge you more. Land utility companies charge you more. I've even seen surcharges on Apartments, Hotels, and Rental Cars for less-than-perfect credit.
a state-mandated $10 at Boston's Logan Airport helps fund the city's new convention center
This is a privately levied tax! Amazing! Basically, a for-profit piublicly run private venture (convention centers are all for-profit, and have nothing to do with the public good, hence they are private) taxing people who don't even have the right to vote in that area.
Dollar Rent a Car slapped on a $1.84 daily "peak-season" fee -- "leaf-peeping season," you know.
Why don't they use their GPS tracking to detect when renters drive the cars on popular leaf-peeping routes and charge the fee that way? It'd be like being able to put a private virtual toll anywhere! They already do this to detect when customers leave the "allowed" area, and charge them heftily if they do...
Meanwhile, for the privilege of paying a credit card bill over the phone, Citigroup charges $9.95.
How can it possibly be legal to charge someone for paying their debt to you?! Oh wait, it's free if they mail in a check, so the creditor can hold onto it until it's late, then charge more fees... You're basically paying for the proof that you paid on time.
It has launched a preferred-guest program that,.... to any customer who signs up. And the cost of signing up is also free....
customers who sign up for this preferred service tend to spend 25 percent more than the average guest
Doesn't sound very "free" does it?
How do they do it?
There is software out there called "Customer Relationship Management" (CRM) software that many banks, insurers, and utility companies are using to target fees and customer services. There are several ways this is accomplished using the profitability score, the risk score, and the opportunity score:
1) When you call customer service, you punch in your account number. The computer looks your account up and if you're a "good" customer (i.e. profitable), you get bumped to the head of the queue. If not, you wait.. and wait.... and wait..
2) The computer periodically measures the profitability of your account. If you are a very profitable customer, it may reduce or relax fees on your accounts.
3) If you start to pile up money in your bank account, the computer will sell your personal information to places like mortgage lenders, car lenders, and other high-dollar financing brokers to start trying to separate you from that money.
4) If your average balances start to decline, down go your scores and up go your fees!
5) Use all of your cell phone minutes every month without going over, and all three of your scores drop and you'll never get decent customer service. Some cell phone companies are even working on technology that will decrease the likelihood of your call being dropped depending on your profitability score; when there is contention between customers on a crowded cell. Say there is a full cell, and a highly-profitable customer drives into it - the software will determine which unprofitable customers can be dropped so that the profitable customer doesn't get dropped.
6) If a bank is taken over, this software determines which accounts the suitor keeps, and which ones are sold off to other subprime banks (probably with higher fees).
7) Pay off that credit card balance every month, and you'll start to see your interest rate drop gradually in order to encourage you to carry a balance (I know for a fact Capital One does this. I have a card and for every month I pay my balance in full, my daily rate drops by a few ten-thousandths of a percent). Conversesly, you may also see 'participation' fees levied against you if you don't ever pay interest.
8) You may also see 'participation' fees if you don't use your card for a number of consecutive billing cycles.
9) Call customer service frequently? Maybe you better think twice about that
10) Paying $4 to use a teller at your bank? Profitable customers don't have to. (i.e. you have your mortgage with them)
Exercise some critical thinking skills and I'm sure you can see where people you do business with will look for opportunities to measure your profitability. Once you can see where they are trying to manipulate you, you can turn it around and begin to manipulate the system in your favor.
How much does it cost (Score:2)
There is currently a controversy on "white label" bank machines that charge $1-4 to get your money out of your account.
I think this is fine, as long as it is clear what you will actually pay. If the company is misleading about the price that is wrong.
Anybody notice pricewatch has the cost AND the shipping cost? This way you compare the total actual cost.
Try a Credit Union for some fee relief (Score:5, Informative)
- never charged a monthly fee for any account
- provided me with a free supply of printed checks
- called me (years ago) when the interest rates on money markets became higher than those in my savings account just to ask would it be ok if they transfered part of my savings to a money market account?
- provided an ATM card with 16 free uses per month (half for merchants / half for cash withdrawal)
- provided a list of credit unions in my area which have no-service-charge ATMs (there are no local branches of my Credit Union)
- provided free on-line banking which gets better each year
- introduced their on-line bill paying service with two free years of use, then, after charging for it for a year, they reduced the monthly fee.
Maybe not all of them are as good as this one, but they do generally behave as though service to members is important. There is an alternative to fee happy banks and you should seek them out.Ticketmaster.com (Score:5, Informative)
Today I bought a 25$ ticket from ticketmaster--$6.50 "convenience fee", $4 handling fee, $1.50 shipping charge.
Which would be reasonable except that delivery consisted of generating a pdf for me to download and print.
Mortgage points and auto loan 'doc prep fees' (Score:5, Informative)
Points have always pissed me off. Points are extortion charged by the lender to convince them to make you a loan - even if you have good credit. Another little advantage to this scheme is that they are the equivalent of interest charged up front. Each point is equal to 1/8 of a percent of interest on the loan amount, and it's paid up front.
The real trick is that it's the equivalent of that interest rate charged over the life of the loan. This would be fine if you kept the loan over the full 30 year (or whatever) term. However, based on turnover and people selling, moving, etc., the average loan is only kept for 7 years. Therefore the effective interest rate increase can be many times higher.
Considering the cost of homes and the amount loaned, this can be many thousands of dollars that you get screwed out of.
Bottom line: unless you're going to keep the loan over it's full term, never pay points. It's just not worth it. Take a slightly higher interest rate up front. Of course, YMMV so check it out and do some math based on the how long you expect be in that particular home and loan.
Another one is "document prep fees" when buying a car. This one is for filling out the form and processing the title at the MVD/DMV. This can run into the hundreds of dollars and it represents a few minutes writing your name and address on a form and writing a check to your local MVD/DMV office. Sure you might wait in line a while, but the folks there generally try to be helpful and can certainly tell you what you need to get titled and licensed. Is $300 - 400 worth eliminating the (maybe) frustration of that process? Personally, I'd ask for the MSO (Manufacteror's Statement of Origin) and do my own title work (with the help of the MVD/DMV clerk if necessary.)
Re:Mortgage points and auto loan 'doc prep fees' (Score:3, Informative)
This sounds like the assumption is that the saved money will be invested at a 12.5% return, which sounds a little high, but I may be wrong with how the math works.
My phone bill (Score:5, Funny)
This stuff makes me want to start a competitor just for spite.
Re:My phone bill (Score:3, Insightful)
ADDONS!!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Cell phones in Canada... (Score:2)
Having lived in the UK for quite some time, every Canadian cellphone "Special Offer" feels like a rip-off.
ticketmaster DOUBLED the price of my ticket... (Score:3, Informative)
What started as a $14 ticket had a $.75 fee if you wanted to print your ticket off the internet, a $2 day-of-show price increase, both of which seemed fairly reasonable (though they should be giving ME a discount for printing my own ticket). Without any warning at all, at checkout, they tacked on a $3 'transaction fee' and a $5.50 per-ticket 'handling fee,' and a $1 building maintenance fee, PLUS tax, (which is not applied at the door), and my total came out to $29.67, MORE THAN TWICE THE ORIGINAL TICKET PRICE.
um, I took my chances at the door, and got in for $14. Too bad that's not an option for most bigger venues.
TicketBastard (Score:5, Insightful)
I wanted to go to a show recently where the venue is 200 yards from my house. I figured, ha! here's a chance to actually go to the box office and avoid the surcharge! It turns out that they have closed their box office, because no one was using it, you can only buy tickets through ticketmaster/bass or whatever. And the fee is like 35% of the cost of the ticket! When there was actually an alternative I would blissfully accept Tm's business model (and bend over), but now that there isn't an alternative at all. Anyone else have this happen (ie. tried to buy from a box office, when there no longer was one)? Alternatively, anyone ever get charged by ticketmaster when buying the ticket AT THE BOX OFFICE?
Re:TicketBastard (Score:4, Interesting)
You guessed it. You pay a convenience fee.
Makes you wonder about scalpers. When they go to arrest one, could they present the argument that the exta $100 they charge for a $30 ticket is just a convenience fee?
Paper vs. electronic airline tickets (Score:3, Interesting)
And "since there is only so much space and weight an aircraft can accommodate," there's "an additional fee for passengers who require more than the average."
This is bullshit. What they should say is that it's more costly to offer the same level of service/guarantee that they offer with a paper ticket -- which they don't.
There's a lot more to the ticket fee issue than meets the eye. The public is aware of it, and it's why they still insist on paper tickets. What's the deal? Well, if you read the fine print, you'll see that an electronic ticket is a completely different class of ticket. It's a different contract. Basically, they have the right to bump you first if the plane is overbooked, or even if someone shows up at the last minute and is willing to pay full pop. With an electronic ticket, you're the low man on the totem pole. Of course airlines are pushing these, because it gives them carte blanche to do what they want with you, overbook flights, etc. Some e-tickets even have fine print about not being responsible for delivering checked luggage, etc.
Be really careful with e-tickets. Read the fine print. I do, and I've always found it well worth it to pay the difference, and even to wait in line.
Re:The way things are going... (Score:4, Funny)
As a new parent, I can tell you that the babies already charge a ton of those to me... :-)
Cheers,
Ian