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Microsoft

Followup On Paying Twice for Windows 113

Posted by Hemos from the nice-to-see-corrections-made dept.
4/3PI*R^3 writes: "In a recent /. posting Paying Twice for Windows we read about how Microsoft contracts obligated businesses to pay twice for Windows if they used disk imaging software. Well, it appears there has been some backlash and Microsoft has modified their position (MS-Word doc) on disk imaging software. At least for Select and Enterprise customers. This still does not help the small shops that can't afford these licensing options."
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Followup On Paying Twice for Windows More

Followup On Paying Twice for Windows

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  • Where's this car boot sale? Just a hint will do!

    You are obviously in the UK which is where I am. Have they any other software which has fallen off the back of the lorry.

    The local car boot sale where I live only has useless stuff like Window 3.1 for Dummies books , IBM PS/2s from the early 90s and old Amigas.
  • I actually like paid software better. Call me hypocritical, but there are a lot more available options for support (well-documented, as well as "speaking to a human" options) for Microsoft products than Open Source stuff. How-to's are nice, but they really aren't for newbies.
  • Actually, they do provide this kind of functionality. We were a small shop and were able to make images that did this.

    I wasn't in that section of the shop, so I'm not sure *how* we did it, but we did it.

  • It is not the dollor, its the British Pound symbol
  • The .DOC phenomenon is just recent at microsoft.com. I suppose that some manager decided that if they distributed Word documents on the web, everyone else would follow suit. It's a pain for me to read Windows technical documents under Linux, so I just don't anymore. I used to be interested in new technologies, but I'm not going to change operating systems just so I can read about them at microsoft.com. I'm calling their bluff; I'm not going to use Windows -- I'm not going to "browser" word documents.

    The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.

  • And they still do! When they buy a new PC, you HAVE TO buy the licence for the OEM software package that get blown away with their in-house flavor of Win9x/NT which has it's own licence.

  • Sick of M$ licensing structure (Score:4)

    by ||Deech|| ( 16749 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @06:41AM (#771692)
    In my company, we recently did a software audit.
    After re-reading updated licensing doc. we realized that we were woefully under licensed.
    So, now, $16,000 later and nothing but some paper to show for it, we realized that we prolly could have converted our entire system from NT to 'nix or BSD for what we just dumped on licenses.

    Actually, we have been discussing doing the conversion to full on *nix and documenting the whole thing for others to read as a reference/encouragement. Not that it will be easy mind you, we are a full on NT, IIS, SQL shop. *all* our apps are custom, written in VB, etc. etc.
    Has anyone else done this and put it on the web? I'd like to see there experiances and such before we approch our boss with such an ambitious plan..
  • Well, I agree - I should have posted it as an AC, but at the time the thought did not cross my mind.

  • If you're a newbie, go to a website for newbies or buy a book. It's still cheaper than support from MS. And you're about as likely to talk to a real human either way.

  • That thought also hit me at a nanosec after I hit post.
    Sorry.
  • Its funny you should mention that.

    When I joined the company I work for we had about 40 employees, now we are getting close to 500. Most of us have laptops (being consultants in the field). When we got to about 60 or so we had an IT department that was reimaging the laptops before they sent them to us. We currently re-image laptops that come with Win2K because most of the 3rd party software we use doesn't work (isn't certified) with it, and most people seem to prefer Win98SE. We CAN'T just embrace alternatives because as a consulting company you are to some degree tied with what you clients use/want to use.

    Its these mid-size, growing companies (that incidentally often hire the bulk of the tech jobs), that are really shafted by Microsoft "Innovations" like this. Smaller shops don't care about imaging, larger shops can afford to pay (or have the muscle to not pay).

  • You might want to ask a lawyer from your college, but Microsoft is on very shaky ground when they demand you have proper LICENSES... They can demand you have enough legit copies for all your machines, but being that it's all the same thing and if you buy fifty CDs, it's fifty identical copies, they can't claim that they're trying to sell a different version for each one, they hurt their case a bit.

    Basically, this whole license bullshit has never been tested in court, Microsoft is just looking to bully people.

    As long as you own Windows NT, install Windows NT. If they try to sell it to you again, decline.
  • And here *I* thought (gasp!) I would be doing some people a favor by posting what the text said here so others could access it.
    But I couldn't fool you AC. Got me but good. Damn now that my ass is in the sling I don't know what I'm going to do...where's my mommy!!!!
    No good deed or kind act should go unpunished on Slashdot!
  • You actually should say Americans, since in all of North AMERICA we mostly use US versions: trunk, gas.... however we do use the UK spelling sometimes in Canada, but we're sensible enough to use the right words....


    --
  • Oddly enough, as a gamer, I blame games for this.

    Think about it -- Microsoft's Gaming Zone hosts several "premium" subscription-based games, including the reasonably-popular Asheron's Call (check out www.zone.com and read the number of players on Asheron's Call, it's usually around 10,000), proving that (at least for gaming) subscription models work. Add that to Verant's screaming sucess with EverQuest, another subscription-based game with an average user load closer to 50,000, and you start to see the draw of the model.

    C$0.02,
    Owen
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • jokes on you, friend
    debian is non-profit
    which makes three (3) companies, and a non-profit org ;)
  • OK, now who's legal on their Ghost licenses as well. IIRC each license of Ghost applied to a SPECIFIC computer, not to user counts or anything of that ilk. So if you bought 10 PCs and 10 Ghost licenses you were done. If those 10 PCs burned/fell apart/got tossed and you got 10 new PCs you needed 10 new Ghost licenses.

    As I understand it this is different than most packaged software; if I get a new PC I can reinstall the application as long as I erase it from the old PC.

    So is everyone up to date on their Ghost licenses? Last people I talked to about this said "No" -- they bought enough licenses to cover the user base, but as they roll 20-30% of their PCs over every year they haven't been buying new licenses.

  • How about just HTML?! Why would anyone put a document on the web which isn't HTML - arg - wait if its Microsoft already I know.
  • The RichText Edit control is part of the Operating System. Wordpad (which will read the document) is basically just a wrapper around it, and included in the OS distribution.

  • How did you do that? I find that Windows disables itself several times a Week.

  • and I'm so glad it was rejected. I had a better story, and better links. Kinda dissappointing..

  • Won't help us at all... (Score:5)

    by weave ( 48069 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @06:11AM (#771710) Journal
    At the college I work at, we get the new PCs in by the dozens, order NT workstation and CAL via our select agreement, reformat windows 98 off of it, then apply NT.

    It's cheaper for us to buy via Select than to allow the computer vendor to pre-load NT on the box, but we are still buying two OSes for each box. Windows 98 which is never booted (the tax) and then NT 4.0.

    You know those SPA studies that claim loses from software piracy? They should conduct a study about how much companies waste on software licenses that are never used.

    Along those lines, it's often really hard to keep track of various upgrade paths for different software packages (not limited to Microsoft) so large companies usually just don't bother. Need a new version, just buy it at regular pricing... More waste...

    That's the biggest reason I love Linux stuff and use it whenever I can. One less licensing headache and administrative nightmare to worry about...

    Ah, a world where I am not liable for my user's actions, where I don't have to run around and conduct audits on PC desktops to ensure license compliance...

    Never happen... :(

  • I worked for a small shop that used 'ghost' extensivly. We also had OEM preload disks that we customized so that windows install was totally non-interactive. The bulk of the time was spent by the CD copying the CAB files to the harddrive. So what we did is once our preload disk copied all it's cab files and its about to reboot we stop it there and clone the disk. Now turn the machine back on and the harddrive boots into the scripted windows installer. After the OEM audit stage the machine is shutdown awaiting for the customer to turn it on for the first time and enter their license info. Is there anything wrong with this?

    Not from my point of view. I could understand if MS was pissed off because shops where cloning disks that allready have been registered. Otherwise what's their problem?

    I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that, but you can't do it like that anymore. There may be other ways, but that one won't work.

    Microsoft has changed the order of a Windows intall to prevent what you were doing. The later install routines won't even start copying the .CAB files until after you've entered the license number and registration information.

    I don't know where the cutoff is, but I'm pretty sure it started somewhere around Win 98 SE.

  • But the company's new position, as posted on its licensing Web site, does not include small businesses or other companies with fewer than 500 licenses

    But small business don't usually need or want to re-image things the way the big guys do.

    Large companies usually do this because they have an approved set of software that their own IT people will be responsible for maintaining, and they want all the computers in the company to be the same. Also they want to install NT or 2000 instead of the Win98 that probably came from the OEM, so they can enforce domains and security and policies and all that other MSCE stuff.

    I hate to use the phrase "TCO", but thats what it comes down to. That and the desire for control by the IT people, but thats another issue. In any case, all of this becomes important when you're talking about thousands of PCs, probably not all in one central location.

    None of this is an issue in small companies. Or at least its a lot less of an issue. If you are a mom-and-pop operation with one or two computers, what is there to standardize ? What is there to control ?

    I do see companies with 50-500 employees (a big range, that includes a lot of new startup companies) being screwed by this, though. They are just big enough to have an IT department (even if it consists of just one or two guys) and might start to want to re-image things. Of course these are exactly the same companies that are in a good position to embrace alternatives to M$....

  • ... I don't have to pay any licensing fees for my system, whether i use disk ghosting or special hardware or multiple installations or every if a take the CD and feed it to my dog.

    And thats the way it should be, dontcha think?

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @06:49AM (#771714)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • geocities had nasty popups before so I created another site here [narod.ru] and instantly realized geosities had fixed. Well, let it live just in case MS would dare to sue /. again.
    ---
    Every secretary using MSWord wastes enough resources
  • from Microsoft bending companies over all the time. They always are looking for some way to sneak another dollar out of your pocket. I'm looking forward to the day that I can run all of our office apps here without using WinBlows.

  • Have you ever tried to write equations with HTML?

    Point taken, but were there any equations in that license document ?

  • Re:Not Really Surprising (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It does not make sense. You are comparing a hardware manufacture to a software manufacture and saying they're are the same. They are not.

    Microsoft sells a product, the OS. If you have a license bought and paid for, either off the shelf, volume licensing, or pre-installed, Microsoft needs to support its product. No accountability is why Windows is such a shitty OS in the first place
  • Well, American TV and films is designed for people with little grasp of proper English (like US citizens for example) and most of it is dubbed into their native tongues anyway.

    Anyway you all must have small pricks with your 'big' aircraft carriers and ICBMs. Notice though that Americans aren't so good at actually fighting man to man cf: Somalia, Vietnam, Grenada, etc...
  • Gah....it's readable in Notepad, but I can't find the text in Pico. I hadn't realized how insanely MESSY the Word format had become! Used to be there'd just be a few lines of crap before and after your text...now it's all over the place.
  • Microsoft announced today that they intend to enforce their ownership of the trademark "MS". Anyone who holds a Master of Science degree will have to find some alternative, or pay a royalty each time they use "MS" on any document. They would have to pay twice gor using "MS" on a resume. "Just because we say so", a Microsoft spokesperson said.

    The Multiple Sclerosis Foundation said it had been contacted by "about a bizillion lawyers" representing Microsoft, urging them to find another term for the disease, or face legal action.

  • but there are a lot more available options for support (well-documented, as well as "speaking to a human" options) for Microsoft products than Open Source stuff.

    OK, name me three companies besides MS that will fix a kernel problem for you in Windows 2000. As in, they have the source, can make the fix, and get the fix resubmitted for inclusion in the next version of MS Windows 2000.


    Here are three Linux companies that can do that:

  • > The American English translation of this is a sale of counterfeit or stolen goods from out of a car's trunk in a car park.

    That's "back of the van", in Aging Hippie Speak (AHS).

    --
  • When you buy a Windows license, you pay with your soul.

    If you believe in the black-and-white world of Linus the God and Bill the Devil.

    I don't. I won't give a shit about open source ideology if the numbers tell me that I will lose more money by sending my staff away for re-education than buying an MS license.

  • ok i just tried it, it worked just fine.

    It probably depends on the OS version, then. The NT 4 version of WordPad (which I tested earlier today) will only load Word 6.0 files.

    Win98 and Win2K probably have a newer version of the Rich Text control than NT, and so don't have this limitation.

    You'd think that service packs would keep the NT version current... but apparently not.

  • What a predictable post. That was so utterly predictable that even I, an American, am slightly embarassed... even though it's true >:^)

    "Free your mind and your ass will follow"

  • paying for windows ?? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Did someone actually pay for a copy of windows...shame on you :)

  • Why they changed their minds... (Score:3)

    by zpengo ( 99887 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:44AM (#771728) Homepage
    They probably realized that this wasn't exactly going to help their court cases. We should probably hit them up now for anything else we want, because in a desperate attempt to be a "kinder, gentler Microsoft" they might actually do it (all in the name of "innovation" of course).

  • Heh. Right.

    I'll tell you what's not cost effective: crash-happy, virus-toting, document-self-destructing, upgrade-cycle-locking Microsoft Office.

    I consider it the height of irresponsibility for an IT director to "standardize" on Windows. That's a lot of company profits flowing straight to Redmond or into the shitter due to lost productivity.

    I should know I have to support that crap every day. What a sorry excuse for professional software.

    "Free your mind and your ass will follow"

  • Even simpler. Stuff the unattended install script into the logon script that is executed on first luser logon. You will have to run some inventory checks by means different from SMS to determine that the machine has not been customized, though. But no rocket science here.
  • Why pay once?


    öööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööööö
  • "Still doesn't help small shops"? Small shops never had this problem to begin with!

    This problem ONLY affected LARGE shops, with SELECT and ENTERPRISE packages, no?

    It wasn't that 'anyone who buys a system then disk-images a new copy onto it has to pay for both copies'.. it was that anyone who was on the select program had to do this. (because select involves support and other things).

    Small shops were never affected in the first place.

  • The reason companies get the OEM copy is that OEM's charge more for an "unstandard" config then then you actually pay for an MSFT os unless you are doing large bulk orders of machines. See the previous /. discussions on this. Don't blame ms on what OEM chose to offer and how they price it.

    There is room here for a company to make money by selling machines blank.
  • I mean really, how long does it take to freakin' do that? - Divert all systems to Shields, we're gonna get flamed
  • keep paying and paying and paying and paying....

  • In text format, for those with out Word (Score:4)

    by hrieke ( 126185 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:42AM (#771736) Homepage
    Re-Imaging Licensed Microsoft Software Using Volume Licensing Media Corporate & Academic Select 345 Enterprise 45 -------------------------------------------------- -- Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers can use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel, primarily OEM and retail, with an identical version of the software. Based on customer feedback, Microsoft has changed its licensing policies to allow its Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers to use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel with an identical version of the product without the need to purchase a volume license. Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology. This change recognizes advances in how Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers are deploying Microsoft software across corporate networks and helps to simplify and speed deployment of new Microsoft products. The Change: Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers may use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel with an identical version of the product without needing to purchase a Microsoft volume license. The image can be installed locally or remotely over a network. The Benefits: Faster deployment of licensed Microsoft software products throughout an organization using the advanced deployment technologies now available for Microsoft products. Reduction in Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) for Microsoft software through easier deployment. Ability to create standard operating environment images, containing licensed Microsoft software, which can be deployed rapidly and efficiently. Key Points: Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers may use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel, using a local or remote image over a network Any licensed Microsoft software product contained in the product pool media received by the Select License or Enterprise Agreement customer is covered by this change Microsoft software products covered by a volume license continue to be covered by the terms of the customer's Select License or Enterprise Agreement Microsoft software re-imaged using volume licensing media but not covered by a volume license continues to be covered by the terms of the original End User License Agreement (EULA) Q&A QUESTION: What is volume licensing media? ANSWER: Media supplied by Microsoft to Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers on a regular basis as part of the agreement. QUESTION: What happens to support and warranty coverage for Microsoft products licensed via a finished goods channel that are re-imaged with volume licensing media? ANSWER: Microsoft's Select License and Enterprise Agreement programs are separate from the support offerings available from Microsoft and its partners for Microsoft software products. Customers re-imaging software licensed via a finished goods channel using volume licensing media do so at their own risk and should investigate the contractual and support implications of re-imaging and make arrangements accordingly. Customers are not entitled to Microsoft support as a result of re-imaging using Microsoft volume licensing media and should discuss any impact to their existing warranty and support coverage with their current warranty and support provider. Note: This Microsoft Volume Licensing Brief is provided for general informational purposes. For the terms and conditions governing your use of Microsoft software products, please refer to your licensing agreement.
  • Very soon, you will have to find two pilfered keycodes from two different CDs in order to install Windows, the OS of Champions.

    Today: Yahoo Serious lights Olympic Flame, Millions Weep
    www.ridiculopathy.com [ridiculopathy.com]

  • The company that I work for has an enterprise liscence aggreement for ghost as well as for most of M$ products. To the best of my knowledge we never paid twice because of cloning. In fact it was not until about 1 year ago that microsoft acknowledged the fact that people were cloning systems. That is when they released their sys prep tool. reality meets paper...errr ms marketing dept.

  • Luckily, small businesses can slip through cracks (Score:3)

    by Mtgman ( 195502 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:46AM (#771739)
    It's mainly the larger, enterprise wide re-imaging, which causes problems. Microsoft may check up on HP's licence issues and call them on it if they have violations. But small companies? I don't think Microsoft is going to spend the time or legal fees in tracking down a 30 person shop which has "illegal" re-imaged disks. But they may hunt down one or two to make an example of. Once this settles down a little, people will get back to business ignoring stupid license agreements.

    Steven
  • I worked for a small shop that used 'ghost'
    extensivly. We also had OEM preload disks that we customized so that windows install was totally non-interactive. The bulk of the time was spent by the CD copying the CAB files to the harddrive. So what we did is once our preload disk copied all it's cab files and its about to reboot we stop it there and clone the disk. Now turn the machine back on and the harddrive boots into the scripted windows installer. After the OEM audit stage the machine is shutdown awaiting for the customer to turn it on for the first time and enter their license info. Is there anything wrong with this?
    Not from my point of view. I could understand if MS was pissed off because shops where cloning disks that allready have been registered. Otherwise what's their problem?

    Peter
    --
    www.alphalinux.org

  • Yeah, right... (Score:5)

    by BrK ( 39585 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:47AM (#771741) Homepage
    I like the following line from their document:
    Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology

    It seems like the document should also contain a line like:

    Microsoft is always look at ways to improve our bottom line while raping you blind for the use of our mediocre products. We admit we got caught this time, but should the opportunity arise in the future we will gladly come at you, sans lubricant, again.

    And they wonder why so many people in-the-know are such rabid supporters of the open-source/GPL/linux concept.
  • XML anyone?
    No thank you, I hate Bloatocols.
  • I went down to my local car boot sale to get Windows 2000 for my two home computers and had to buy a whole 4 copies (at £15 each!!).

    At this rate it'll soon be cheaper to buy a legit copy. :)
  • I thought that the Microsoft Licensing Program was open enough such that even a small shop (say 10 people, or so) could accrue enough points for the licensing program. That's how I read their program, anyway.
  • It is less expensive to buy a Windows and Office license for your entire company than getting your secretaries and tech writers to use Linux and StarOffice efficiently in a reasonable time.
  • What if you need to tweak/customize Windows with additional drivers, etc? You can't do that without setting a CD/Product key. If M$ just included a facility to delete the license, you could install, license, configure, delicense, then create an image -- they next time Windows booted up, it would ask for your CD Key.

    This is Microsoft's fault, not ours. I mostly like using their stuff, but if they're going to continue being license Nazis, I guess I have to find something else.
    --
  • Have you ever tried to write equations with HTML?
  • You really mean that secretaries and tech writers should learn to use Linux and StarOffice? When all they know about Windows MS Office, and computers in general was learned during a four week re-education course?

    Boy, I hope I'll never end up in a company or a project run by you.

    These people aren't in the tech industry. They may only be working in the tech industry. Teaching them to use yet another word processor is simply not cost-effective -- even if the software is free. The lost hours spent either interviewing for a secretary who knows Linux or teaching them to use it cost more than paying for a Windows license.

  • Well, their OS comes with a free version of Wordpad, which reads and edits .docs just fine. So I don't see what the problem is.

    Sure Wordpad reads doc files... "Microsoft Word 6.0" doc files to be precise. Try using it to open a file saved from Word 2000, or Word 97 even.

  • If they can't use linux and staroffice. I don't hire them.

    Simple policy.

    As far as I care, people are working in the tech industry they should be tech literate.

  • MS does provide it in HTML form (Score:3)

    by Jagged ( 2249 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @07:05AM (#771751)
    Hasn't anyone else found this HTML version of the document on Microsoft's website?

    http://www.mi crosoft.com/enterprise/licensing/docs/re-imaging_b rief.htm [microsoft.com]

    All these complaints and conversions to text or HTML by others, when just some mild searching would have found the official version.
  • After it's done installing windows it boots up in a sort of "safe mode" so OEM's can load drivers etc. There's alittle pop up window that always comes up that says "when you're ready to shutdown for good yadada, press this button" and that what change a registry key entry (if forget which) so next time the machine came up for a first time user.

    Now what if you hit that button by accident? well in win 98 (not SE) you press CTL+ALT+F(2?) and that would get you back in to the OEM stage. In SE you have to do some wierd ass registry hack so it resets itself. It was so time consuming and aggrivating to do we'd rather reload the drive.

    for the curious of how this exactly works visit.
    oem.microsoft.com . You'll need to create yourself an account but once in you'll have access to all sorts of goodies. This is 'supposed' to be for OEM's and VAR's only but they cant verify it soooo... :-)

    you need to register here first to get in,
    http://www.microsoft.com/oem/

    Peter
    --
    www.alphalinux.org
  • When I first read car boot sale, I figured it was sales of siezed cars (after they've had the big yellow boot put on around the wheel). Of course, I got to the next sentence and it mentioned software... ok, there could have been software left in the car, and that was up for auction as well, but that didn't make a whole lot of sense... trunk seemed somewhat sensible, but it wasn't until our antagonistic friend started spouting and was answered that it was really clear.

    also: car park => parking lot, not a place where cars grow from the ground...

    >our version is the correct one in all cases
    even more flamebaitesque than the previous post...

    thru is not formal US english, but more vernacular (though (tho?) oxford just says: US var. of THROUGH)

    US english (in it's many forms) is spoken by several hundred million people - a peer language rather than a dialect, I'd say (not that I'm a linguist).

    Relax...
    --
  • I *HATE* That.
    You know.. all too often I hear people who come in to my company say 'at our other place, the IT people just wanted to control everything'.

    You know what? I think in the majority of cases, that's just not how it is. It's a misunderstanding.

    I am the IT guy. It is my job to TELL everyone how they shoudl manage their computers; with windows, this is harder than unix. Nobody acuses 'root' of 'being power-hungry' or 'needing to be in control'. It's common sense; root does root htings, users can't blow up their workstations.

    Unfortunately, in a windows world, it's harder to achieve that balance. And all too often, simply sending out memos that tell people the appropriate way to use their computer, and instructing them to 'please not install stupid screensavers' and such just doesn't work. So, you have to have control!

    And you know what? Sure, you say, I am smart enough to run my own workstation.. I don't need the IT guy. Hey.. us IT guys agree with you. But you know what else? When for whatever reason, your install something that breaks your computer, it's OUR problem to fix it, and if your computer doesn't work, it is WE who get in shit for not providing reliable infrastructure.

  • From this news.com article [cnet.com] it sounds like you have to pay for a full extra copy of Windows if you want the Spanish Language version instead of the English version. If it were me, I'd just order the whole computer from CompUSA instead, since they are a Mexican owned comapny, and presumably would have PC's with the Spanish version pre-installed.


    (Normally I would use 'No Score +1 Bonus' for this post, but Taco has decided that my karma is too high, so go ahead and mod me down to 1)

  • I did not say hardware manufacturers and software manufacturers are the same. IBM's refusal to support the T20 in that case is an analogous situation.

    Windows is not a shitty OS because of lack of accountability. Windows is a shitty OS because it is rushed into release and then SP'd to death. Windows is a shitty OS because it is written to make as many user decisions as possible, often frustrating those who actually know what they want to do but have more difficulty doing it because the OS tries to do it for them.

    I agree that Microsoft needs to support its product, but it gets around it by letting OEM's add their own banner page and then claiming that the OEM has "altered the code" and users must seek help from those manufacturers before Microsoft will lift a finger.

  • Another M$ plot (kinda OT) (Score:3)

    by MousePotato ( 124958 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @07:24AM (#771757) Homepage Journal
    In this article [techrepublic.com] (annoying free registration required) at TechRepublic [techrepublic.com] there is good information on Microsoft's plans to start renting thier applications to companies. The idea being that M$ now beleives that ASP's are for real and will be a better way to manage thier revenue stream. The model being a per user charge for the OS and for thier products like Back Office and the Office suite. An interesting comment in the article:
    ... If Sun, IBM, Oracle, and AOL all decided to band together and focus on providing the Sun StarOffice Suite on a standard Linux/Gnome platform using a rich, hosted Lotus Notes back end for a set fee per month, ($5 or less), then Microsoft would have to dramatically alter their plans to continue desktop operating system and productivity suite domination.
    I realize this post is slightly off topic but its worth a look and discussion here too. Paying twice for windows is kind of like being taxed by M$ for thier crappy os. I know they are big, but, they certainly arent the government and taxation without representation is (last i checked) still illegal. My point here is that both the topic and this article detail a good portion of M$'s revenue schemes for the future. If they go for the leasing concept there will be many smaller firms looking into switching to other platforms which is good news for all of us.
  • I installed the free version of WordPerfect and set the MIME types in Netscape to launch it for MS Word documents:

    /usr/local/wp/wpbin/xwp %s

    Works like a charm.


    Regards,
  • You are completely right. Plus you got my point!

    At least some slasdot readers have a brain.
  • Sigh. This is getting ridiculous.
    She's shown up at work today.
    I am going to get no work done today.
    I think I'm going to be ill. All I did was touch her.
    Did I mention that I'm on a zero tolerance policy from HR due to 4 previous complaints?
    God. How can this be happening to me?
    --PJ
  • When I opened the document in wordpad, everything was in strike-through font. I bet they have their fingers crossed, too!
  • Just convert it to text. strings word.doc | fmt -75 | more. Hunt for english (or whatever your language) text.
  • Every sunday at the royal highland showground and Ingleston Edinburgh :)

    Look for the stalls that just have a few bulging ringbinders on display.

    Get there early cos the polis usually show up around 2pm :)
  • Disclaimer: Bill Gates is not the Anti-Christ!

    Shame on you! M$ has led the industry in inovative software licensing for years. Just recently they figured they could charge thier customers more for the number of simultaneous connections to a customers own server!

  • After it's done installing windows it boots up in a sort of "safe mode" so OEM's can load drivers etc.

    What, then, is the end user who adds hardware supposed to do when additional WinXX files are needed? Buy another license? Suuuuuuure Microsoft, take my money. I don't want it.

    =================================
  • I am going through this right now. It's a long and ardous process. Start with the server leave the clients to the end.
    First switch the file and print services.
    Next tackle the database server switching from SQL server will be pain in the butt but if you switch to oracle the migration workbench claims to do most of the work for you. Switching to postgres will be a laborious process but postgres is actually fun to work with as opposed to SQL server which makes me want to kill puppies.
    After all your back end is done you can start on the clients by then klyx will be out and your developers can start porting their VB apps to klyx. This way they can support both linux and windows clients with the same code.

    OK go to it!. Seriously it's taking a while but it's possible so far we have converted file print, mail, ftp, name server, web server. The database is next!


    A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.

  • I guess Microsoft is assuming you have a *.DOC capable application (in other words, an MS wordprocessor) to read about updates to your operating system license. Hmmm....

  • HTML version online (Score:3)

    by clgoh ( 106162 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:48AM (#771768)
    Using Word HTML conversion....

    http://www.geocities.com/cgo hier/re-imaging_brief.html [geocities.com]

  • It's cheaper for us to buy via Select than to allow the computer vendor to pre-load NT on the box, but we are still buying two OSes for each box. Windows 98 which is never booted (the tax) and then NT 4.0.

    This looks like the same issue behind the "Windows refund day" last year. As well as one of the things Microsoft were brought to court over.
  • Basically, this whole license bullshit has never been tested in court, Microsoft is just looking to bully people.

    Most likely they are also looking to asimilate the Ferengi Commerce Authority too.
  • As a matter of fact there is a pretty good paper up at:
    Unix-vs-NT.org [unix-vs-nt.org]
    describing a similar migration process. Kirch hasn't updated the page in a while but IIRC this guy did pretty much the same thing, though I don't think he had any custom VB stuff to deal with. On the whole it's a pretty good site with alot of Unix and NT comparsions, not much in the way of benchmarks, instead it offers a good view from the trenchs so to speak.

  • Better yet, just pay some snot-nosed geek lacky...err..uh...just looked into the mirror. Pay someone 6 bucks an hour to do the workstation installs for ya! :)
  • They're now making this look like a good thing for themselves. "Look how we've simplified this for everyone". The fact that the original licence scheme was braindead in the extreme is conveniently ignored, of course...
    --


  • No. This problem affected small customers as well. And this solution proposed by Microsoft still doesn't help them. The only reason they changed their agreement was because the large customers had the voice and pocketbooks to make life difficult for MS. The smaller businesses don't have the ability to do *SQUAT*.

    Sure the small businesses can go and put on whatever software they please...just don't let any auditors get close to them...or that company will be toast.

    Here's a quote from the CNET article on it if you're curious:

    But the company's new position, as posted on its licensing Web site, does not include small businesses or other companies with fewer than 500 licenses

    The article is here [cnet.com].

  • Simple answer:

    strings re-imaging_brief.doc | less

  • Let's translate the document (Score:4)

    by Private Essayist ( 230922 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @05:54AM (#771776)
    From the MS document:

    "Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology."

    Translation: Microsoft is always aware of how we are screwing our customers (though we will deny it if asked). When the uproar threatens to overturn our favorable cost/benefit ratio, we will make changes.

    "This change recognizes advances in how Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers are deploying Microsoft software across corporate networks and helps to simplify and speed deployment of new Microsoft products."

    Translation: Although our customers were already deploying our software that way before this change, we need to find an excuse for making this license change now. Therefore, we are blaming our customers for this. They changed, you see, and being the responsive company that we are, we nobly changed with them. But only the big customers, you see, not the little guys who were the ones that couldn't afford this nonsense in the first place. But who cares about the little guys? We're Microsoft! We don't have to care.

    "The Benefits: Faster deployment of licensed Microsoft software products throughout an organization using the advanced deployment technologies now available for Microsoft products."

    Translation: Well, not 'faster' really, since they will keep doing what they were doing before, but we don't want to say that we're no longer screwing them as badly so this is how we will phrase it. Faster, yeah, that's it!

    " Reduction in Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) for Microsoft software through easier deployment."

    Translation: Uh, yeah, we're saving our customers money, you see! Yeah, aren't we great? And it's 'easier' this way because, *cough* they don't have to pay us twice -- uh scratch that from the record.
    ________________

  • how many of these large companies actually go through and pay microsoft twice for windows? The licensing might say one thing, but i'm sure most of them think that microsoft will overlook that...
  • I dunno...320 for Windows 2000 (and 180 bucks for the full version of Windows, ... At that rate it'll only be soon if "soon" means decades. :/
  • car boot sale Where you open the boot of your car and sell stuff from it instead of putting it on a table.

    I believe you call them trunks over there. If you sold stuff from your trunks over here you would probably get arrested for indecent exposure (unless you were elephants).

  • You're right - until MS sets users up with a subscription model. Sure, the big companies will probably be able to get away with the non-subscription version of Windows 2002, but consumers and small companies won't. They'll be caught the first time they try to wipe a drive. It won't even be a matter of bringing out the (legal) hounds, it'll just be as simple as not giving a license key.

  • Windows is a shitty OS because it is rushed into release and then SP'd to death. Windows is a shitty OS because it is written to make as many user decisions as possible...

    I disagree. I think that Windows is a shitty OS because the primary intent is to make money, and not an operating system.

  • Since the first article was posted on this, I kinda wondered what kind of a moron would not figure this one out before!!! Our shop buys machines with the OS preloaded, therefore, you are paying for that copy of the OS (eliminating the need for a group license). Installing the new image has no effect on licensing, since it would be the same as removing all the crap that the OEM installed, and installing your in house applications/settings, only quicker! Just keep your Cert. of authenticity (sp) in a safe place and you are ok.

    That's what you'd think would make sense. If you had bothered to actually READ the original article, you would have noticed that this is exactly what Microsoft's legal department says is NOT allowed - which is why this is an issue at all.

    --

  • The pound has been a metric currency unit since 1964 I belive. Before that it comprised of 144 pence = 12 shillings = 1 pound.

  • Re:Won't help us at all... (Score:3)

    by weave ( 48069 ) on Monday September 18, 2000 @10:22AM (#771789) Journal
    You might want to ask a lawyer from your college, but Microsoft is on very shaky ground when they demand you have proper LICENSES... They can demand you have enough legit copies for all your machines, but being that it's all the same thing and if you buy fifty CDs, it's fifty identical copies, they can't claim that they're trying to sell a different version for each one, they hurt their case a bit.

    That's not how the Select program works. You get a box full of every product microsoft sells every 45 days and no legal rights to install any of them unless you buy paper licenses for what you intall.

    So when I buy 400 copies of Office 2000, all I get is one certificate that says we can install 400 copies of it on 400 separate computers. That's it.

    To their credit, it's a nice program. I can actually install it right away as long as I get the license purchased within 30 days. This is good for a business who often has immediate needs. No need to wait for a product to ship. Also, no need to register the products (e.g., the annoying consumer office 2000 50-tries then you can't run it hassle).

    What I am upset about is having to pay for the OEM copy of Windows 98 which is never used, just reformatted and a Select CD copy of NT is installed (and appropriate license and CLient Access License purchased...)

  • 3)

    Television was developed by John Logie Baird, who was as the name suggests, Scottish.

    Nane aw that english or american crap please. :)

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