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CA Court: Message Boards Are Opinions, Not Facts

Posted by chrisd on Wed Nov 28, 2001 04:06 PM
from the special-rights-for-special-people dept.
Masem writes: "According to this Newsbytes story, a CA appeals court has issued a ruling that says that typical messages posted to internet message boards can not be considered as libel or slander, as they inheritently are framed as opinions and not as statements of fact. The case stems from rather negative comments posted by defendants about a computer reseller company on the internet; the company sued for libelous comments; lower courts did initially rule for the company, but the appeals court has overturned this. While not every message posted in a public forum is safe, the court's decision seems to convey that unless the message is framed as a form of fact, then any message posted to a public internet forum should be considered as opinion, and thus cannot be considered as a libelous comment."
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  • Thank heavens! (Score:3, Troll)

    Well, that should relieve everyone on Slashdot no end! :)
  • hehe... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TechnoVooDooDaddy (470187) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:07PM (#2626783)
    why am i suprised every time a court makes a ruling that makes sense?

    seriously, good work there in CA...
  • Yipee! by Phoenix (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:08PM
    • Re:Yipee! by aka-ed (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:16PM
    • Re:Yipee! by paraducks (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @09:36PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Good News by jeriqo (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:09PM
    • /. is still safe (Score:5, Funny)

      by EccentricAnomaly (451326) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:27PM (#2626942) Homepage Journal
      Deep, Deep, down in the sprawling dungeons below Redmond, Washington:

      "Yes, Yes, my precious"

      "Uhhh... Mr. Gates?"

      "WHAT are you doing here!"

      "Uhhh... sir, I was sent my the legal team... ya know, Nazgul, Balrog, & son... it seems a court ruling in California put a crimp in our plan to rid oursleves of that vile website, slash-"

      "DON'T say that word!! ...well, I guess we need to go to plan B... Send forth the flying monkeys!! Muhahaha!!"

      "Uh, sir.. we don't have any flying monkeys... all we have is Dancing Monkey boy..."

      "Crap... forget this, I'm just going to stay down here and play with my invisibility ring"
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Good News by Quizme2000 (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:29PM
      • Re:Good News by Ctrl-Z (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:58PM
    • Re:Good News by elixx (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:48PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • New disclaimer: (Score:5, Funny)

    by rjamestaylor (117847) <rjamestaylor@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:09PM (#2626795) Homepage Journal
    "Comments are owned by the Poster."

    Change to

    "Comments are Opinions owned by the Poster."
    Besides, the best defense may just be, "Hey, this is Slashdot -- you were expecting facts?"

    ;-)

    • Re:New disclaimer: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Bonker (243350) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:59PM (#2627203)
      +5 Funny, yes, but damned good advice all the same. Are you listening, Taco?

      Changing the line to something like

      "All comments are the opinions of the owner and not the property of Slashdot"

      might just save you a world of grief down the line.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:New disclaimer: by interiot (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:10PM
        • Re:New disclaimer: by rjamestaylor (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:46PM
          • Re:New disclaimer: by paraducks (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @09:47PM
          • Re:New disclaimer: (Score:4, Informative)

            by TekPolitik (147802) on Thursday November 29 2001, @12:07AM (#2629147) Journal
            If the "context" is framed (that's what the disclaimer does; frames the context unambiguously) then this ruling does, in fact, apply.

            The content can counter the disclaimer depending on form. For example, if you say "John Doe raped Jane Bloggs", that will be read as an attempt to state facts rather than an opinion. On the other hand, if you say "I believe John Doe raped Jane Bloggs", it's probably a statement of opinion put together with the disclaimer. If you say "Jane Bloggs was raped. In my opinion, the most likely culprit is John Doe", then the disclaimer isn't even necessary.

            You need to be careful though - in the United States, opinion is absolutely protected in the same way truth is protected, because "there can be no such thing as a false opinion." Here in New South Wales, opinion has unqualified protection under the Defamation Act 1974 (NSW) s32 [austlii.edu.au]. But on the Internet you need to make sure that the web site you publish on is in a jurisdiction that has this unqualified protection of opinion, but as long as it's in such a jurisdiction, and you make no attempt to limit the persons who access your web site, a defendant in another jurisdiction won't be able to touch you, even under their local laws (Kostiuk v. Braintech (1999) 171 DLR (4d) 46).

            You also need to make sure that when making comment you provide the statement of fact that backs it up. For example, if you say "Joe is a person incompetent to hold a position as a public official", you might be nailed in some places. On the other hand, if you say "Joe cannot read. A person who cannot read is incompetent to hold a position as a public official", the provided it's true that Joe can't read, your OK (in fact in this case you'd be OK most anywhere in the English speaking world).

            It's best to make it absolutely clear what part is opinion (or "comment" in defamation terms) and what parts are facts when you're saying something you know somebody might claim is defamatory. This is critical (although less so in the US) - failure to make clear the separation between facts and comments can kill the "fair comment" defence. In some jurisdictions you also have to prove your facts, so it's better to say "I received this email which purports to be from X and says Y" rather than "X sent me this email that says Y".

            Of course it's easier just not to say anything bad about other people, but much more boring.

            IANALY,TINLA

            [ Parent ]
      • Re:New disclaimer: by hacker (Score:2) Friday November 30 2001, @09:52AM
  • Thank GOD by Renraku (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:09PM
  • Yeah, but... (Score:5, Funny)

    by cburley (105664) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:09PM (#2626800) Homepage Journal
    isn't this ruling just one court's opinion??

  • good except... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mickeyreznor (320351) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:10PM (#2626805) Homepage Journal
    it would have been nice if they extended this ruling to include personal web pages, which have been under attack constantly by lawsuits claiming libel and slander, etc.
  • With a little luck... by wls (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:10PM
  • Joke meta-post by Mike Schiraldi (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:10PM
  • Yay! by sgt_getraer (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:10PM
  • IMHO (Score:4, Funny)

    by pete-classic (75983) <hutnick@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:11PM (#2626817) Homepage Journal
    Note to self: start every comment "IMHO . . ."
    • Re:IMHO by SomeoneGotMyNick (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:37PM
    • Re:IMHO by spurious cowherd (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:15PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Slashdot Paradox by yumyum (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:11PM
  • Woohoo by fishebulb (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:12PM
    • Re:Woohoo by paraducks (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @10:12PM
  • Finally ... by Niet3sche (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:12PM
  • Compare to Australian defamation case by andyo (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:12PM
  • new UBB tag (Score:3, Funny)

    by LMCBoy (185365) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:13PM (#2626830) Homepage Journal
    How about a new tag for HTML/UBB/whatever:

    <fact>Linux rules, M$ drools!</fact>

    This tag would lend the enclosed text more credence, but also hold the poster responsible for its content.

    heh.
  • So that means... by dev_alac (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
  • this will help FC by studboy (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
  • DUH! by josquint (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Honest to god, this isn't a troll... by NoMoreNicksLeft (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
  • Wait a second ... by Niet3sche (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Whoah.... by Sj0 (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:14PM
  • Stock Market Manipulation by MiTEG (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:15PM
  • Good news for Fuckedcompany.com (Score:5, Informative)

    by Nerftoe (74385) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:15PM (#2626850)
    Fuckedcompany.com [fuckedcompany.com] recently received a subpoena from the lawyers [kl.com] of Printcafe.com [printcafe.com] to cough up "records" of the anonymous posters who made slanderous comments on the site. Some of the comments were directed to the CEO's wife. It seems that Pud (owner of FC) doesn't keep records of the IP addresses of those who frequent the site. Pud said that it was too bad that he already had finished up his book [amazon.com], because they would have received a mention.
  • This has other ramifications by Dynedain (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:16PM
  • Time Will Tell... by the_Librarian (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:17PM
  • More info on ruling by RadioheadKid (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:18PM
  • It's a two-fer day! by Rocketboy (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:18PM
  • by www.sorehands.com (142825) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:22PM (#2626896) Homepage
    It must be read carefully. You have to keep in mind, that the ruling may change the line between fact and opinion, but not that much.


    The analysis of fact and opinion has been based on context and content. This ruling recognizes the context portion or the analysis. And states that it being in that forum makes it as from a disgruntled stockholder as opposed to someone in "the know" or with authority.


    Even on a web posting, libel can still be found.

  • It's about time by Zen Mastuh (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:22PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • I guess this leaves the Scientologists SOL by NeuroManson (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:23PM
  • Godfrey vs Demon Internet by swright (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:23PM
  • Any lawyers here? by 47PHA60 (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:25PM
  • Oh, My God .... by pyramid termite (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:26PM
  • Once again, please read the article... by Kakurenbo Shogun (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:26PM
  • That's good news... by Hugh Kir (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:26PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What if your opinion is fact? by evacuate_the_bull (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:30PM
  • Heres my opinion.... by wackysootroom (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:30PM
  • Except on AICN. by tcd004 (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:31PM
  • Rational dudes? (Score:3, Funny)

    by KarmaBlackballed (222917) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:33PM (#2626987) Homepage Journal
    I checked the date, but today is not April 1st. How is it possible that there are two postings on Slashdot today where California, the state with blackout summers and crazy laws, has issued court rulings that make sense! This is crazy. The world must be ending.

    If this shows a trend, I may have to move out that way.
  • -by any other name... by Mu*puppy (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:34PM
  • I am Scared by Jebediah21 (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:34PM
  • That by nll8802 (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:35PM
  • just the facts by hitchhacker (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:36PM
  • Tell that to vwforums.com (Score:3, Interesting)

    by swordboy (472941) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:38PM (#2627036) Journal
    Check out this article [theregister.co.uk]. A VW dealership is suing for a post on a message board. Both the poster and the message board have been named in the trial.

  • sucky me and idiot by t0qer (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:38PM
  • Slashdot? by Peridriga (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:39PM
    • Re:Slashdot? by Happy Monkey (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @08:11PM
  • Is this a good thing? by Baba Abhui (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:40PM
  • Stock market by nick_burns (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:41PM
  • a blow to trolls everywhere by BlueLines (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:44PM
  • Opinions, Facts, and Slander by WillSeattle (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:45PM
  • Not fact? by pyrrho (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:46PM
  • Will CA try for three? by mttlg (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:47PM
  • Well Cited Post by pyrrho (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:48PM
  • Some sanity by titrisol (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:50PM
  • Kesler vs. Doe by rsimmons (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:51PM
  • fact v. opinion by necrognome (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:52PM
  • Three in a row in California courts by pdqlamb (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:53PM
  • Huh (Score:3, Funny)

    by BillyGoatThree (324006) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:54PM (#2627176)
    IANAL, but I bet this means we can all stop saying "IANAL".
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • In My Humble Opinion by rprycem (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:55PM
  • Does this mean by gillbates (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:00PM
  • by AtariDatacenter (31657) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:03PM (#2627231) Homepage
    And for a great example of a case of this going on right now, head on over to Fucked Company [fuckedcompany.com] where some dot.bomb is trying to get FC to reveal the names of some anonymous posters who said bad things about the company and the CEO's wife.
  • Source of the courts opinion by 3ryon (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:05PM
  • Mod the Article to -1 Trollbait by darrad (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:06PM
  • Does this make sense? by mindstrm (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:08PM
  • If a posting actually does damage, ... by Charles Dodgeson (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:10PM
  • Who's stupider? or is it real? by Pointy_Hair (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:11PM
  • Problem here is ego's turn options into fact by pres (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:14PM
  • Holy Crap Batman! by sirgoran (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:17PM
  • In other news... by uslinux.net (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:27PM
  • How can libel be fact??? by stubear (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:30PM
  • If Only... by Klein Pretzel (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:31PM
  • ...and in our nightly science report- by xerxes7 (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:34PM
  • That's their opinion! by DaoudaW (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:36PM
  • Duh! by Arandir (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:38PM
  • by pangloss (25315) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:41PM (#2627419) Journal
    Given the page views at vwvortex [vwvortex.com], i'm sure many have heard of the lawsuit that the Jim Ellis VW dealership in Atlanta, Georgia brought against George Mantis. The dealership sued Mantis recently, alleging that the comments Mantis posted to a VW web forum were libelous/slanderous.

    If you haven't already, I highly recommend you have a read (although the length of the thread at this point easily rivals some of the longest ever seen even on /.). It started out with a few disgruntled customers, and when the dealership tried to snuff the thread by serving papers to both Mantis and VWvortex, it became a giant stink, with international media coverage and even a grassroots legal defense fund. If you look at the timestamps about 7 pages in, you really get a sense of how fast and across how many vectors information can travel.

    FYI: The dealership seems to be backtracking now, and supposedly will be in settlement talks this Friday. Hopefully this translates into an even stronger position for Mantis to deal from.
  • Have a nice day. (Score:3, Funny)

    by rice_burners_suck (243660) on Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:43PM (#2627432) Journal

    Disclaimer: The following comments represent opinion only and should NOT be regarded as statements of fact, slander or libel:

    Microsoft SUCKS ! Windows SUCKS ! MSN SUCKS ! Internet Explorer SUCKS ! Passport SUCKS ! .NET SUCKS ! [insert name of Microsoft product here] SUCKS !

    The following, however, are statements of fact:

    Linux ROCKS! FreeBSD ROCKS! NetBSD ROCKS! OpenBSD ROCKS! Darwin ROCKS! Amiga ROCKS! BeOS ROCKS! IceWM ROCKS! vi ROCKS! Opera for Linux ROCKS! Qmail ROCKS! csh ROCKS! [insert name of UN*X program here] ROCKS!

    Oh well.

  • Should we get new moderation tags? by StevenMaurer (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @06:10PM
  • I'm going to faint by stubob (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @06:16PM
  • Sanity? by RickHunter (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @06:27PM
  • Sweet.. Here we go.. by jfroot (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @06:30PM
  • Hold on... by MJN222 (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @07:12PM
  • Who's that judge? by Karellan (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @08:50PM
  • This makes no sense by pauljlucas (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @08:53PM
  • Am I the only one .... by thumbtack (Score:2) Wednesday November 28 2001, @09:52PM
  • Could it be? by ope557 (Score:1) Thursday November 29 2001, @01:37AM
  • current APD lawsuit by bad-badtz-maru (Score:2) Thursday November 29 2001, @11:10AM
  • Re:The following post is true: by Sj0 (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:21PM
  • Re:Test case by KC7GR (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:22PM
  • Re:So much for by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:26PM
  • Re:The following post is true: by tenman (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @04:48PM
  • Re:Scientology by J'raxis (Score:1) Wednesday November 28 2001, @05:47PM
  • 29 replies beneath your current threshold.
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