TiVo Wins Permanent Injunction Against EchoStar 437
ZenFodderBoy writes "It's official! Judge Folsom entered his ruling today granting TiVo nearly $90 million in damages, plus granting a permanent injunction calling for the disabling of nearly all of EchoStar's DVRs within the next 30 days. EchoStar's motion to stay the injunction pending appeal was denied. Additionally, the judge reserves the right to grant additional damages in the future, so treble damages may still be coming. Excellent news for TiVo!"
Stock? (Score:3, Insightful)
/. is an editorial factory (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh wait.
Re:Thanks (Score:1, Insightful)
This won't be good for tivo in the long run (Score:4, Insightful)
Tivo's time will come.
Re:/. is an editorial factory (Score:4, Insightful)
Win for Tivo - Lose for Customers (Score:4, Insightful)
There isn't much information on this finding, but I'd take a guess and say that customers that have signed up for EchoStar's service may be in for a rude shock when their PVR stops working.
I'm up for rooting for Tivo but I guess this is business, and if Tivo couldn't find a way to sell their products to the broadcast vendors without going to litigation it makes for a difficult times.
never getting a TiVo now (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Win for Tivo - Lose for Customers (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, Echostar got what they deserved. It's a shame their customers may have to suffer for it, but that's the price of protecting the inventors.
Re:Stock? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course this would be a setback for the projects but it wouldn't be enough to kill them.
Re:never getting a TiVo now (Score:1, Insightful)
The Point (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thanks (Score:3, Insightful)
This may be largely news from BBC, CNN, NPR, etc., but I don't have all day to scour those sources for the tech/CS/etc. news I want to read. That's why I have /.
Re:This is about Patents (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically the number one claim seems to be on seeking in an open file if the file is a multimedia stream. In Linux language:
cat
mplayer
Those two lines would instantly infringe on tivos patent.
The next claim is even fruitier.
cat
cat
mplayer
I have a hard time beliving tivo actully did this first, and even if they did where is the invention. When I first got a TV card a couple of years ago this is what I did because it was the easiest way to get the media to play. Needless to say, but I didn't feel like I invented something. Maybe I missed something about tivos patent, I'm not a lawyer.
Re:never getting a TiVo now (Score:3, Insightful)
How did this statement get modded as "Flamebait"? It is a basic business axiom.
TiVo won a lawsuit, but they didn't win any new customers yet.
Re:Win for Tivo - Lose for Customers (Score:3, Insightful)
i wouldn't even be surprised if directv helped fund tivo's legal battle, considering the mess echostar (directv's only american satellite competitor) is in now. their existance could very well be up in the air now.
enough consumer backlash and negative pr and echostar will be ripe for a takeover again. we are four years removed from the fcc rejection of directv's acquisition of echostar (2002). four more years into this pro big business administration and a new fcc head could spell the end of echostar and satellite competition.
and, if this patent doesn't get invalidated, what happens to all the other devices and software currently in use and/or on the market that allows you to record and watch at the same time?
Re:/. is an editorial factory (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually I think this is good news for everyone. I have a Dish 625 PVR and I love it. I've always heard how great Tivo was. It's great not just because of the superiority of hard drive recording but it was great because of the Tivo software. The Dish PVRs aren't that bad but I have a feeling that Dish Tivos would be fantastic.
The great thing about the Dish PVRs is they record the mpeg2 stream. They don't have to lose quality in the conversion of analog to digital. If I bought a Tivo I'd have to hook it up to the Audio/Video jacks on the back of my Dish box. I'd also have to rig up IR blaster I guess.
Tivo has done a great job and should be benefiting from it. I'd like to se Echostar buy Tivo (as long as they keep the hackability of the Tivos). Tivo software with direct capture of the mpeg2 stream would be fantastic.
might be good for consumers in the long run... (Score:1, Insightful)
If ever there were a case though where I was glad to see a decision go in favor of a patent holder... this would be it. When Tivo was introduced - there really wasn't anything like it... and not only had they introduced a product that really changes the way you watched tv - their 1.0 product was truly amazing, a home run. The interface was intuitive, simple to use & highly funtional. Ever other dvr software I've seen pushed out by cable & satellite company have all seemed like a poor knock off built from some common (poor) framework. To the point where the functionality delivered by some of these dvrs really isn't much more than a tapeless vcr. If this decision happens to force echostar, directv, comcast, rcn and others to use Tivo hardware/software for the next few years - then I think in the long run the consumers will be winners... cause when the time comes and the patent does run out... people will be hooked on 'the good stuff' in the dvr universe & those companies will be forced to offer solutions which actually compete with tivo and drive innovation.
anyways... that's my 2 cents.
disclaimers:
1) while I talk about 'other dvrs' not being too great... I haven't seen too many. I can speak from experience that the comcast one sucks ass... and the directv-brand one seems to be build from a similar model (and reviews of it weren't too favorable). Anyways... having said that... replay tv did look like a valid competitor while it was around (RIP)... and the mythtv & freevo homebrews look great...
2) didn't mean to imply abouve that directv never had tivo... I know they do... I own a Sony SAT-T60 DirecTivo unit. Mainly just commenting on their new homebrew tivo replacements...
Re:This will do nothing but harm the consumer & (Score:5, Insightful)
A little misdirected anger?
Maybe you have some other reason to be pissed at Tivo. Don't be mad at Tivo becuase Echostar sold you something they stole from Tivo and got caught.
Re:Win for Tivo - Lose for Customers (Score:3, Insightful)
IMO its about time Dish has to own up.
Re:This won't be good for tivo in the long run (Score:5, Insightful)
That brings up somewhat obvious questions about the applicability and utility of our patent system. TiVO patented something in 1997 that was novel and non-obvious. However, it would have been both obvious and easy 5 years later. So, they get 17 years of monopoly for being ahead of their time.
I dig it though, I have friends who work there, and they could use the money...
Re:never getting a TiVo now (Score:2, Insightful)
This is provably false. All one needs to do is look back in history to a time when invention were not protected and realize that it still happend anyways.
Whether or not patents should exist is debatable, but you argument here is simply false.
Re:This won't be good for tivo in the long run (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A stupid judgment that penalises customers... (Score:5, Insightful)
Patents don't imply that, they are that. But I agree that you're quite right about the injustice of the injunction, and about the most obvious way of settling the matter without injuring third parties.
In the software realm, if, to pick an example close to the hearts of many in the legal profession, WordPerfect were suddenly found to have violated a patent, would it be appropriate to disable all copies of WordPerfect and force users to purchase another product, just so that they could read from and write to their existing files? And how could such users determine that the product they'd been forced to buy wouldn't in turn have a self-destruct injunction filed against it next month?
Re:This will do nothing but harm the consumer & (Score:5, Insightful)
This is, by the way, how basic patents work. There's no "it's popular, so you don't have to pay to license the patent" rule. For example, Motorolla has a patent on putting a heat sink on a transistor, and every other electronics company pays them for it. There's an engineer that has the patent on on-screen programmable VCR's, and he gets paid for every single VCR manufactured. The way the world works, that engineer doesn't have a monopoly on on-screen programmable VCR's, but every VCR manufacturer has to negotiate a license before they can (legally) ship their product.
This won't affect Echostar customers, or technical support representatives, unless Echostar decides that they'd rather screw their customers than cut a deal with TiVo. At that point, resigning is a reasonable course of action.
Re:A stupid judgment that penalises customers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, a monopoly spurs innovation by doing exactly that - granting a temporary monopoly on the patented idea. This is what encourages individuals and companies to invest the time and manpower to create something new: they get to reap ALL of the benefit for a period of time until the idea becomes part of the public domain. This is how it is supposed to work.
I do agree, however, that EchoStar should've been forced to pay the required licensing fees to Tivo, insteead of forcing them to shut off their customers products. This is an example of just because it's possible to disable their patent-infringing product doesn't mean that they should. That's the bad for consumers part, not the fact that EchoStar violated patents.
Re:Dish to Disable DVRs ? (Score:5, Insightful)
This would not be a first time for Dish.
The Dish Network management knows how to use their customers as leverage. Every time there is a contract dispute between a program provider and Dish, they make sure that it is clear to the customer how to contact that program provider and pitch a bitch.
I would be surprised if a similar tactic didn't get applied here.
Re:This will do nothing but harm the consumer & (Score:3, Insightful)
I would agree with that argument if TiVo hadn't been attempting to resolve patent issues with Echostar for several years. E* can hardly claim ignorance on this issue. They can't now say, "Well we infringed on the patent, but we didn't know!" IMHO, it was E*'s defiance that enabled cable companies to feel free to implement their own DVRs.
This is definately a win for TiVo. This is definately a loss for E*, but I think the loss was E*'s own doing. It's also a loss for Time Warner, who is not in negotiations with TiVo and a win for Comcast who is. And depending on whether or not you think that TiVo functionality is better than all the other DVRs out there, it may or may not be a win for the consumer.
But as far as E* is concerned, this is exactly the outcome they should have expected if they lost the case. As far as E*'s customers are concerned, I am almost entirely certain that E* will not shut off DVR service to their customers. They'd lose way too many customers to DirecTV - who does license TiVo - or to cable companies who have no injunction over their heads. What will happen is that E* will pay a license fee to TiVo in order to retain its customer base. E*'s profits will go down a little bit. E*'s stock will take a hit. TiVo's profits & stock will go up. E*'s customers won't experience anything different.
$.02
Re:/. is an editorial factory (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A stupid judgment that penalises customers... (Score:4, Insightful)
The injunction gives bite to the verdict... now Echostar has to either pay up what the verdict says...or work on a settlement agreement... of course, it still can and will appeal, but in the meantime, it cannot continue to infringe Tivo's patent... else, without an injuction option, a guilty verdict in any patent infringement trial would be meaningless if the infringer could continue to well, infringe...
neither the medicinal drug nor another poster's Wordperfect scenarios are pertinent analogies... medicine already ingested is obviously not the same as a service provided by a company... the drug company has no more rights in the sold drugs... if anything, an injunction would prohibit such an infringer from producing and selling any more drugs, but of course, whether a court would order an injunction against a drug company producing a drug, a court would consider other factors in that type of scenario, such as whether the drug is taken for life/health threatening reasons (a cancer drug vs. an erection drug)...and whether there are alternative sources for similar drugs (the actual patent holder produces the drug)...
remember, Echostar's dvr is a service...the customer does not own the dvr software, Echostar does... so the injuction prevents them from continuing their patent infringing service... customers may suffer (although, what do they really suffer? nothing life/health threatening, unless missing Laguna Beach or another retarded episode of The Hills would create mind crushing depression leading to a surge of bulemia among silly girls), but that is Echostar's fault, not Tivo's...
So, the judgment is not stupid...its a tool to enforce the verdict and stop a convicted infringer from continuing their illegal activity
Why "host" anything in the U.S.? (Score:2, Insightful)
On a sidenote: do you think the US govt and patent office considered this when they decided to make everything patentable?
Re:/. is an editorial factory (Score:4, Insightful)
Eh, I'm a happy customer of both Dish Network and TiVo and definitely think this is a good thing, including for consumers and even Dish Network customers.
I chose to pair a SA (Stand Alone) TiVo over a DishPVR for a multitude of reasons:
Of course I lose out too, most notably with occasional channel change mishaps that cause the wrong channel to be recorded as well as the lack of ability to record the digital stream right off the satellite.
Now I have two TiVos
I've been following this case for a while, TiVo pproached Echostar seeking to license TiVo's technology. They even left a demo unit with them (which Echostar "lost"), then Echostar amazingly came out with new DishPVRs that were cheap knockoffs of the TiVo.
If there was ever a case of blatant patent infiringement this is it, umlike the NTP/RIM debacle where a patent troll was exploiting an obviously BS patent where they didn't even make a product, in this case Echostar ripped off TiVos technology in order to compete with them.
We mustn't confuse patent reform with patent abolition, though obviously some people (certianly some /. users) believe patents should be abolished. If every company that came up with an idea could get is usurped by someone else it would only be the evil megacorps of the world that could succeed, the little guys would get destoyed before they could get a foothold in the market.
Re:Bigger question (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, Tivo makes a competing product. They're not just an IP company, like the worst trollers out there.
Second, Tivo did initially negotiate with Dish to make a Tivo PVR for Dish. Dish decided to end the negotiations and make their own PVR. One can argue from this that Dish knew they were "stealing" Tivo's technology.
Re:A stupid judgment that penalises customers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, that really sucks. You should call customer service at Echostar and tell them to stop selling you stolen things, and tell them to pay the rightful owners for what they stole, and then your equipment will work.