Vanguard - Saga of Heroes Previewed 116
Labyrrinth writes "The media blitz for the upcoming release of the new MMOG, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
has begun with 2 independent previews at IGN
and Gamespot
. From the article at Gamespot 'In days of old when knights were bold, elves with pointy sticks would totally beat up on a bunch of skeletons. You may have seen online games that take place in high-fantasy worlds, but recently, these games have become much more lenient on players, so that exploring, fighting, and even falling in battle has relatively minor consequences. Not since EverQuest of 1999 (a game that was infamously punishing back then and was clearly one of the main reasons why newer games got easier) has a new massively multiplayer game tried to offer a well-thought-out, but purposely steep, challenge.'" Normally I don't think previews are noteworthy, but Vanguard has been practically a black hole of information since development began.
damn (Score:1)
Re:damn (Score:1)
Re:damn (Score:2)
blah (Score:3, Insightful)
Misconception caused by clumsily written previews (Score:1)
I think the reason it reads like a re-hash is that the previewers kept writing in things that were in old EQ like they were new ideas. I don't know why, maybe they never played EQ.
The *new things* Vanguard is doing are truly ground breaking. The combat system is exciting and new, crafting will be far more varied, valued and protected from mudflation, and there's an entirely new sphere called Diplomacy, which will operate something like a first person MMO RTS - you will influence and even control NPC's.
All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:3, Funny)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Beyond that, there were some fundamental problems in game design- nothing to do other than PvP (I love PvP, but some other content is needed) and a broken siege system to start. Way too much stress on guild leaders as well- I've never seen a game chew through guild leaders like SB did.
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2, Informative)
Short travel times = no locality. Does it matter where you are if you can be on the other side of the world in 10 minutes? This also concentrates the market furthur into the big trade hubs since it is so easy to get to them. I actually prefer the long travel times, so long as the game is set up in a way which supports it (don't force people to the ends of the earth every 5 minutes). Makes the world feel bigger.
corpse runs, heavy death penalties
Some people find thi
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
a
Once other games came out without the severe penalties that corpse runs imposed, SoE was forced to change their tune.
There are players that enjoy suffering, on the theory that it makes their "acheivements" feel more important.
The vast majority of the MMO market, however, prefers to ENJOY their playtime.
I will never again play a game that makes me not want to tak
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
EQ's corpse run system is particularly irritating. This does not mean that all risk is bad; it means that EQ's corpse run system is badly designed.
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
> not mean that all risk is bad; it means that EQ's corpse run system is badly designed.
The worst part was that the corpse evaporated after a week, even with all your stuff on it, whether you logged on or not. I have no idea if that's still the case as I haven't played in several years, but damn was that annoying.
Worse, a corpse without anything on it decayed in like half an hour, so if you died going to get your corpse, you had to make a
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
I especially would never play a game where another PLAYER could put me in that position without my consent.
From TFA: Unlike EQ, you will be able to carry multiple sets of gear in your horse's saddlebags (different horses can hold more stuff or move faster than their counterparts) and your body won't decay as long as it ha
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
There is a market for games that have rulesets like you want. Those games will NEVER be dominant or top of their field. Players like you are a minority. I don't mean that as an insult. You like what you like, and I hope you can always find a game that will provide it. Just understand that the vast majority of paying players do n
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
> you can be on the other side of the world in 10 minutes? This also
> concentrates the market furthur into the big trade hubs since it is
> so easy to get to them. I actually prefer the long travel times, so
> long as the game is set up in a way which supports it (don't force
> people to the ends of the earth every 5 minutes). Makes the world feel bigger.
City of Heroes has a nice balance of this -- you get good, fairly high-sp
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Well, it doesn't look like aimed for Guild Wars fans (game synopsis [guildwars.com]) for sure.
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
1300+ hours?! Thanks, but no thanks, I already have a full time job that pays *me*.
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
I know, I'm a freak. And I don't play more than maybe 10 hours a week due to my other interests like fixing up my Jeep, rock climbing, and of course my wife and kids.
However, EVERY STINKING MMOG has been SO dumbed down that I feel like I'm a monkey banging on a keyboard and watching the game play for me. I feel like I'm in Progress Quest.
PLEASE give me the long travel times, the lack of point-to-point transportation, the heavy death penalties, etc. In fact, when I die at or n
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Long travel times, level loss, death penalites, xp penalites- these are tedium. It does not take skill to reach cap even with these, it just takes time. A trained monkey will still eventually hit 60. Have the tank taunt, the healer heal, the nuker nuke. Rinse and repeat until capped.
Real skill requires either your reflexes or your brain to matter at all times when playing. Where correct use of your and your groupmates skills is needed, or you'll die. It
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
City of Heroes was almost DOA for me except for the scrapper class, a fighter class with awesome damage output AND relatively non-squishy. The only class in t
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:2)
Re:All the annoyances of Everquest, but more so (Score:1)
who destroys the Gond? (Score:1)
Hooray! (Score:2)
At last, those who claim World of Warcraft & it's brethren are "too easy" or "too fun" have a way to recapture those heady Everquest I days, where games were work & fun was a dirty word!
Update of a side-scrolling shooter? (Score:2)
Oh, wait... Nevermind.
Yayyyyyy!!!!!! (Score:2, Funny)
The world will never be the same.
Difficult != Bad (Score:3, Informative)
The only problem with current 'hardcore' geared MMOs is the fact that most developers design their systems with the 'ship now, add content later' mentality. This leads to gamers blowing through the early levels so quickly, developers are forced to focus on end-game content and ignore 'mid-game' content. A MMO that can be challenging yet not end-game focused (organizing and planning a 40-man raid is simply frustrating and time consuming) would be an excellent for gamers. Face it, as much as people talk about WoW as 'the best MMO evar!', they generally end their statements with 'I just wish there was more mid-game content.'
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:1)
For me, the appeal of harder, harsher MMO's is that I'm much less likely to be playing with impatient teenagers. WoW is custom made for them, and from the talk you hear, they make up the majority.
I'll put up with a more difficult game any day, if the playe
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:1)
Except WoW is little over a year old. AC2, which shut down recently, was little over three years old. (AC2 is just the most recent example, other MMOs have gone longer and still shutdown) Give WoW a few more years then we can talk about 'WoW isn't dying' again. Arguably, WoW is simply riding the 'launch hype' that accompanies any major game. If WoW keeps around 5 million users after its second year (or grows even larger), then yes WoW is
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:1)
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:2)
And thats not counting the upcoming competition. The new FFXI expansion,
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:1)
Of course eventually they are going to have a declining subscriber base. That's sort of an inevitability. Does that mean that when it finally happens they will be a failure?
Re:Difficult != Bad (Score:2)
Market Saturation (Score:2, Insightful)
I remember reading something by the guy who does the MMOG charts and him saying how the market for this type of game is somewhat saturated already. Sure, WoW has five million players now, but a lot of its "hardcore" crowd was cannibalized from EQ and other
Re:Market Saturation (Score:3, Insightful)
The 'radial' content model and large world is good.
The corpse runs and XP debt are bad.
The player housing and horse/saddlebags/flying mounts are good.
The lack of point-to-point transportation is bad.
The spell/counterspell/aspect-based attacks is good.
The level-based paradigm is bad (well, not bad, but yet another MMORG that's unable to break free from the old Chainmaelle wargaming system, circa 1977).
The player-owned properties, including inns and stores, is good.
It's l
Re:Market Saturation (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Market Saturation (Score:2)
It seems cookie cutter at first, but as I was reading through the developers responses to the questions posed, it seems like they wanted to do what has been done before, but *correctly* and with game longevity in mind.
(And by longevity I don't mean six hour long raids, though they may exist, the devs have stated that they want their game to be primarily group focused. Not so lonely that you're soloing, not
Re:Market Saturation (Score:2)
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
Re:Market Saturation (Score:3)
As for Vanguard, they've always said they were
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
I think this contrasts nicely with:
It's true that WoW did cannibalize from other games in order to get their figures,
Wow, nice contradiction.
--
The problem is that the market doesn't reward the companies that [make "new" experiences]
As soon as the market shows they're interested and willing to pay for "new experiences", you will likely see more of them.
That's some beautiful circular reasoning. Also, claiming that graphics somehow
Re:Market Saturation (Score:2)
It's not a contradiction. Your reading comprehension obviously failed where I explained that WoW did, in fact, grow the market. But, there's a difference between if they had grown the market without cannibalizing other games, and the fact that they did cannibalize other games in order to grow the market.
That's some beautiful circular reasoning.
Perhaps you'd like a working definition of circular reasoning? There is a catch-22 here, in that nobody really makes new experiences becaus
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
Once again, I'm so sorry I dared to try and hit you over the head with some reality, Mr. professional game designer. I, a lowly peon, could never understand these complex issues as well as you. Now why don't you just go back to stoking overinflated ego, your 10-year old game engine, and your three thousand subscribers?
Re:Market Saturation (Score:1)
Don't have enough time (Score:1)
Marriage and MMORGs don't mix (Score:2)
Re:Marriage and MMORGs don't mix (Score:1)
Learn
How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
Says you. WoW was my first MMORPG and I was bored stupid at level 35 because of the lack of interaction with other players. Vanguard looks like it will be a breath of fresh air and a step back in the right direction.
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
WoW is certainly not my first MMORPG. If you think Vanguard is a step back in the right direction, go play it and let us know afterwards what you think.
As for player interaction, a lot of it has to come the player him/herself. WoW is very solo-able, so yeah, there can and will be a lot of peo
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
I was originally in WoW then switch to EQ2 and found it alot better. Soloing is extermly possible and there are also alot of quests that require groups.
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
MMOs are already one huge treadmill grind. Why make it even longer? I'm of the opinion that games should be fun to play. Make it too frustrating, and I'll find something else to spend my time on. I realize that not everyone shares my playstyle, nor does everyone share yours though
Re:How many MMO fans want their game to be harder? (Score:2)
They also talked about how much of an adventure it will be for everyone as they will long travels between spots, if you could fly and bypass all that how much of an adventure would it be?
A Long Time EQ Player (Score:3, Informative)
Imagine having to spend 10+ hours of grinding to get level 29.
Imagine doing a 5+ endgame raid where you finally get the boss and you lose the roll on the loot. And so you leave your computer having lost almost a complete level of experience with wipes and not much to show for it. (And you though get groups together was hard)
Now imagine trying to keep a guild together or just general group tension down when wiping with any party can cost you the exp equivalent of 3-4 hours of mob grinding. Plus a ton of extra time and money in regents from having to summon all your corpses from under the feet of "Baron VonAssbeater".
I had alot of fun with EQ and a pretty successful guild. But I was also a teenager and this was the best that was available at the time. There is No Way in Hell I would put up with that stuff now.
Re:A Long Time EQ Player (Score:1)
And he means from level 28.5, not from level 1 there boys and girls.
Re:A Long Time EQ Player (Score:2)
Yes, I still play EQ. Have played it, on and off for 8 years: my first toon was created back when it was still 989 Studios, 3 weeks after EQ shipped. I have a 70 toon in Time now, and am working GoD flags. . .still fun,
Re:A Long Time EQ Player (Score:1)
10 diseases I'd rather get than play this game... (Score:1, Flamebait)
-Eric
Re:10 diseases I'd rather get than play this game. (Score:1)
Re:10 diseases I'd rather get than play this game. (Score:2)
-Eric
Vanguard justifiably called Third Generation (Score:1)
WoW *IS* second generation by anyone's definition that I've read.
Vanguard is doing a whole series of things which no second generation MMO are doing, and there are more differences between Vanguard and WoW than there were between WoW and EQ, so really, they are justified in calling it third generation. (one example: they're adding a whole new 'sphere' of gameplay, additional to Adventuring and Crafting, called Diplomacy.)
See my other posts for list of new things they're doing, or check out their webs
Another look. (Score:2, Insightful)
EQ vs. WoW (Score:4, Insightful)
EQ/Vanguard are not for people who enjoy playing mmorpgs, like they enjoy playing other games, or for people who play them like glorified IM clients. These games are for the people who actually enjoy the challenge, enjoy the fact that it might take hours to get a reward, and instead of hating the process, count it as an effort towards building a character they see value in.
This is like saying MGS 2 was too hard because you couldn't play it like Tetris or Solitaire, they are totally different types of games. In WoW, the actual work done by the player is minimal, with low risk, and even unskilled/casual players (which is a huge, HUGE market) can compete evenly with the hardcore players. They are actually different games, and the problem until now has been trying to expand the market with new unskilled players, while still keeping the hardcore tier-1 dragon-slayers with server-uniques which are critical to the game, like the old FoH and LoS guilds were to EQ, setting an inspiring ideal for the rest of the players to follow, part hero-worship, part social-hierarchy.
My point is they are different audiences completely. Trying to put them in the same game is difficult without either pissing off the casual players, or letting the hardcore players reach the "End". WoW tried, and got an assload of casual players, but most of the hardcore players I know have left, doing cameos whenever a new dragon comes out, and otherwise actually getting on with their lives. The only hardcore players in WoW now are the compulsive "Ok now I want armor X and horse Y so I look cooler" until the next patch comes out with new armor X and horse Y.
Basically, I miss EQ
Final Point (Score:1, Flamebait)
EQ was too hard? Then you plain sucked at it. Accept it, go home, pull out one of the millions of 3D FPS's, and use a god cheat. Or better yet, pay a prostitute to tell you how large your dick is, because things in life hav
Re:Final Point (Score:1)
Re:Final Point - So much Agree (Score:1)
Re:EQ vs. WoW (Score:2)
Going back to the dark ages (Score:2)
I really don't mind a challenging game. I enjoy playing games like Half-Life/HL2 without using god mode, for the sheer challenge of succeeding. But MMOs tend to take up a lot more time, and you are dependent on others for the most part. You can't just save and walk away because the kid is throwing up, or the cat is climbing the curtains.
Re:Going back to the dark ages (Score:2)
Re:Going back to the dark ages (Score:1)
Re: No Offence !!! (Score:1)
vanguard? (Score:2)
http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?Softwa
and
http://coinop.org/g.aspx/100208/Vanguard.html [coinop.org]
Visually...blah (Score:1)
As far as gameplay...ugh. Sounds like it's back to the grindstone. No thanks.
Re:Visually...blah (Score:1)
Actually the character generation system is one of the most detailed, if not the most detailed [silkyvenom.com], ever written. Character visuals are extremely customisable. The graphics are excellent, check out the offical screenshots [vanguardsoh.com]. If they look bland to you, it's because they're realistic and more immersive, not cartoony :P
Furthermore, the gameplay is looking far more varied than anything else. New, more complicated AI. *Entirely* new and interesting combat system. Sailing on player-made ships to new continents! Int
Horrible Previews (Score:1)
This game won't be for e
Re:Horrible Previews (Score:1)
I already know Vanguard is not for me - it has a lot of nice sounding features, but is wrapped in a, for lack of a better word, hardcore-package. As a time-limited gamer, I really can't ju
Re:Horrible Previews (Score:1)
Lots of whining, oh wait, it's /. (Score:2, Insightful)
My comments (Score:2)
Lets start with the stand out comment of the article; "The actual game mechanics should be familiar to anyone who's dabbled in MMOs in the past few years."
- Holy fizzle... Vanguard really is Everquest 2.0 (not to be mistaken with Everquest 2 from SOE). Read that quote again. Translated to human speak the previewers impression was "This is Everquest with better graphics."
Something about housing that caught my eye; "Once you start racking up a lot of dough, you'll eventually
Re:My comments (Score:1)
Re:My comments (Score:2)
I understand the media blit
Re:My comments (Score:1)
Re:If only most MMOGames had an offline mode... (Score:2)
The main problem is that if you don't keep up levelling at the same pace as your friends, you fall behind and have to start all over on building up relationships and reputation with a
Re:If only most MMOGames had an offline mode... (Score:2)
-Eric
Re:Making Corpse Runs is not a Feature! (Score:1)