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2.4 Maintainer Marcelo Tosatti Answers Your Questions

Posted by timothy on Mon Dec 10, 2001 03:45 PM
from the succinct dept.
Now that Linux kernel 2.5 is under development by Linus and others, the all-important job of maintaining and updating the "old" kernel series (the one that people rely on in day-to-day use) has fallen to 2.4 maintainer Marcelo. You asked Marcelo about everything from the influence of politics (age and otherwise) to his working enviroment and approach to maintainership; his answers are below.

1) list of changes for the common folk
by e40

One thing that is really missing is a list of changes in each kernel release that is meant to be consumed by the masses. The "changelogs" that are offered up are sorely lacking for us non-kernel hackers. What I'd like to see is a prose description of the changes in each version. Something like Release notes for 2.2.18 by Alan Cox [linux.org.uk] is a step in the right direction, but some of it is even a little too technical. For example, in the above document, set_current_state

* Fixed potential SMP race

means little to me and probably a lot of other people. Under what condition does this occur? The question why should I care about this change? should be answered for each entry.

How do you feel about doing something like this?

MT: I agree on that the changelog is "not for end users."

As I've seen several requests, I'll try to do more extended changelogs.

However, please note that right now I'm giving higher priority to fixing problems than to writing extended changelogs.

2) diary
by Lennie

Do you have a diary, like Alan Cox we can read?

Because we all like to know, if you'll actually be doing what your gonna promise now :)

MT: No I don't, sorry...

3) Kernel growth -- is it a problem?
by connorbd

While I am a passionate Linux supporter, I have also come to the conclusion that kernel bloat is likely to be a major issue fairly soon. It appears to have been the case for some time that =486 systems Need Not Apply, and Red Hat in particular has become a rather memory-hungry distro (it won't even install on my 16MB Pentium system, though I doubt this is really a kernel issue). The end result is that Linux seems slowly to be growing out of the lower-end used-server-in-a-closet market that helped it get so big in the first place.

My question: I presume kernel bloat, both in terms of code size and resource demands, can impact heavily on maintainability. Do you see this as a significant issue for the future, how much of a problem is it, and is it something that can be easily addressed without tearing apart the code base and reorganizing it from the ground up?

MT: Core kernel bloat is a _very_ bad problem. However, I'm pretty confident Linus is not going to allow that on 2.5, though.

About more drivers/fses being added to the kernel, well, thats a bad problem for maintenance.

All we can do about it is to make sure all accepted code to the kernel is clean, simple, and well designed to make maintenance easier later...

4) code control
by brer_rabbit

Have you thought about putting your changes under some sort of version control software? If you started putting the kernel/patches under CVS, maybe the rest of the kernel crowd would follow.

MT: I'm releasing pre patches now pretty often. However, I could export my local CVS, yes.

I might do that in the future.

5) Any plans to improve documenting the kernel?
by Carnage4Life

Currently the Linux kernel is filled with functions that are either poorly documented or completely undocumented. One of the purported benefits of Free Software is that many developers can jump in and help yet when you have functions like __free_pages_ok [linux.no] in page_alloc.c that are important, complex yet the only comment is:

"Buddy system. Hairy. You really aren't expected to understand this."

Doesn't this somehow defeat the point of the source being available in the first place? Basically the question I have to ask is this, "I have flirted with the thought of sending comment only patches to the kernel to further help people understand certain subtleties (e.g. why the pprev and next pointers in user_struct are not what they seem) in the source code especially CS students who are learning about the kernel in operating systems classes. If someone were to start such a program would such patches be accepted into the kernel?

MT: Yes, I would accept such patches as long as I agree with the documentation _and_ as long as I have time to read all patches :)

6) A pretty generic question
by archen

How do you view Linux in the scheme of things? Mainly where do you think the niche of Linux is now, and where will it be years from now. How do you view the direction Linux tends to be taking compared to other OS's (Windows XP, FreeBSD, etc) - ["direction" is up to what ever you personally interpret it to be BTW]

MT: Linux has a lot of "niches": the embedded market, the home users market, the enterprise market: Handling all of those "niches" in the best possible way is a very nice challenge.

I don't see any "direction" to Linux, though: It can work well on several niches.

7) Why you?
by CmdrPinkTaco

This is not intended as a flame or a troll, more of an interview style question. I figure since we are the people who are putting our trust in this person to handle *our* kernel, that this should also be our chance to learn about the person responsible.

What makes you think that you can handle maintaining the Linux Kernel? What qualifications do you have and why should we (the people) trust you with the Linux kernel.

I realize that this is actually two questions, but they more or less go together in one answer.

MT: I think they chose me because I can deal with different people without ego fights. I usually avoid conflicts and instead I try to solve problems.

About qualifications: I've been working at Conectiva for some time (4 years) as a software developer. I'm working together with technical support, which makes me have an idea of usual end users problems/needs.

8) Patches
by return 42

Linus likes very small patches, everything broken down into little chunks of functionality. Alan is ok with bigger patches. What do you like and dislike in the patches people send you?

MT: I prefer patches which touch specific things only: what I really hate are patches which touch several kernel parts.

9) CML2, cvs, kdb, crypto and more
by iamsure

If during the course of your maintainership CML2 proves very successful (as I beleive it already has) would you consider using it instead of CML1?

Also, would you consider moving crypto into the main tree in the near future? Debian has, Redhat will "soon" ...

Would you consider using bitkeeper, cvs, or even complete changelogs with proper attribution of WHICH merges took place?

And finally, would you consider FINALLY bringing kdb into the main kernel? Linus doesnt want it, but he doesnt want it because he doesnt see the value. He didnt say he banned it ...

MT: About CML: Sure, I may consider including it in the future. Not now, though.

About crypto: I want to be out of legal problems. Sorry.

kdb: Maybe. Not now, though.

10) Alan Cox and politics
by melquiades

Alan Cox's stand on the changelog is clearly not only a matter of personal protection, but a political statement. He has chosen an issue that is tremendously important to Linux, free software, and software developers everywhere, and certainly it's right for him to be pursuing it.

But is the Linux kernel the right forum for politics? Do you feel that it's a bad idea to involve the kernel in politics -- a slippery slope in which the software itself becomes a political pawn? Or would you say that the kernel -- and all software -- has already become a political pawn, and Cox's actions are entirely justified given that free software's existence is under increasing threat?

MT: I'll try to avoid involving the kernel in political questions.

11) Sound drivers
by BlowCat

The sound drivers are very poorly written. A lot of code is duplicated. Not all drivers support some ioctls. Every driver has its peculiarities, e.g. some drivers reset dsp to mono, 8bit on DSP_RESET, some don't. Some support /dev/audio, some don't.

Not having ALSA in 2.4.x means no good sound support in the stable kernel for another year of two. Do you plan to integrate ALSA into the 2.4 branch? If yes, will it happen after it's done on the 2.5 branch?

MT: I do not plan to integrate ALSA on 2.4.x.

12) How do you plan to handle the big companies?
by hansendc

As all of us know, many large companies are putting large amounts of resources toward Linux. 2.4 will continue to be important to these companies because it is the version currently being shipped with the distributions, and will continue to be shipped for at east a year or two.

How are you going to deal with the submissions from people like IBM and SGI who are going to want to make significant changes to 2.4?

MT: If their changes are non intrusive and I agree with the way they are coded, sure I'll apply them. Why not?

13) Stability vs Features
by azaroth42

How do you intend to decide which new patches should be added to 2.4, the stable tree, and which are not to be included as being more appropriate to just 2.5, the unstable development tree? For example, do new or updated device drivers rank more highly than VM updates?

MT: I'm really trying to avoid new features which are intrusive: Those ones are for 2.5.

New features which are non intrusive are OK.

14) Threads
by Exmet Paff Daxx

What are your thoughts about threads? Specifically, do you support Linus's "Context of Execution" generality with clone() or are you going to focus more on plain POSIX pthreads compliance?

Any chance of Alan Cox's multi-threaded post-mortem debugging patch which dumps multiple core files for each lightweight process (LWP) making it into the kernel? How about support for post mortem debugging of multithreaded core files in general (right now there is zero support).

Any rants about threading as a general topic would work.

MT: I do support Linus's "Context of Execution" idea, yes.

About Alan's multi-threaded post-mortem debugging patch: I haven't read it yet. But I might apply it.

15) Age a question?
by debrain

If what I've read is correct, you are the youngest maintainer for this kernel. Do you have any feelings on a social level, regarding much of the peer review and critism will come from people who are older? (and very possibly set in their ways, and potentially intimidating)

MT: I don't have any feelings wrt age. I just hope that older people don't take that into account.

16) Expectations
by MikeBabcock

In the time you've been aware of or been using Linux, how have your expectations for what it ought to be or eventually become changed? I know in the time I've used it I'd never expected it, for example, to become a desktop OS but rather a good server or embedded product. What did you expect when you first started with Linux, and what do you expect now?

MT: I expected it to be a server system when I started using it.

Now I expect it to be a Unix system which can work in a lot of different environments. :)

17) Hit by a bus
by moonboy

I'd hate to stray from the status quo where standard interview questions are concerned, so in keeping with it, I ask:

What's it like knowing that, if (God forbid) Linus and Alan were hit by a bus, you might be "The Man"?

Hey, someone had to ask.

MT: I don't know, dude.

18) Re:Do you use a distribution?
by bfree

To rewrite the above question the way I'd like it asked:

What operating systems and platforms do you personally use and which ones do you also use (and why)?

MT: I use Linux for work and sometimes I use Windows to play games.

Do you run a common environment on all your machines (in as far as possible) or do you run different things in different places and which environments do you prefer for what?

MT: I do run Linux on all of my machines. I like to take a look at other OSes when I have time...

What development tools do you use (especially for the kernel), would you do anything differebtly for the kernel (like make it compile with other compilers) if you could (or will you) and would you like to (or will you) place the Linux stable kernel into CVS or another version control system?

MT: I use vi for editting source code and gcc to compile the kernel. :)

No, I'm not going to put the kernel in any kind of version control system because I have to know what goes into the kernel.

One thing which I'm going to do, and which matters, is the use of STP in each -pre release of the kernel.

I hope the SGI guys can get STP stable and working well soon.

Do you feel any personal preferences for anything might actually be in anyway reflected in your work as the stable kernel maintainer?

MT: No.

Do you have a good lawyer?

MT: No. Actually, I don't have a lawyer at all and I hope I'll never have to use one on Linux related issues.

Are you planing on travelling to the U.S.A.> (for all I know you live there, excuse my ignorance:-)? [Note: Marcelo lives in Brazil.]

MT: No. I may go to some congress, though. Not sure yet, though.

Have you experience dealing with politicians, business leaders and large groups and do you see this as a part of your job description? MT: I do not have experience dealing with politicians, business leaders or large groups. I see that as part of my job description, yes. I hope I can learn that with time...

When you stop maintaing the stable kernel, what would you like people to be saying about your reign?

MT: That it works well. ;)

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  • Whelp... (Score:5, Funny)

    by ManualCrank Angst (541890) on Monday December 10 2001, @03:49PM (#2683808) Homepage
    ..if his code is as terse and to-the-point as this interview, the kernel's gonna shrink by at least 75%.
    • by abe ferlman (205607) <bgtrio@nOsPaM.yahoo.com> on Monday December 10 2001, @04:21PM (#2683974) Homepage Journal
      Marcelo actually answered a few more questions that didn't appear in the main article, and were cut to save space. Here they are:

      What do you think is an appropriate length for interview answers?

      MT:17

      Can you elaborate?

      MT:no, sorry

      Do you think that people who write long interview answers are compensating for other shortcomings?

      MT: Yes, definitely
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Whelp... by applejacks (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:27PM
    • B side questions (Score:4, Funny)

      by nehril (115874) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:31PM (#2684035)
      Marcelo, please discuss what exactly this great responsibility means to you in terms of your childhood and your relationship with your parents.

      MT: it's groovy...

      Tell us your psychological approach to kernel development vis-a-vis great 19th century philosophers.

      MT: not now. maybe later. sorry...

      Some people have likened coding to a visual-perceptual dialectic where the dynamic energy of structure versus entropy result in communal "oneness." What are your thoughts on this?

      MT: Code is green...

      Is there anything else you'd like to add to this interview, given that you now have a chance to speak to the large slashdot community? Any particular issues you feel strongly about?

      MT: ...
      [ Parent ]
    • vi vs emacs (Score:5, Funny)

      by Unknown Bovine Group (462144) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:53PM (#2684168) Homepage
      After this interview, I'm convinced he uses vi instead of emacs because with vi he saves 3 characters....

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:vi vs emacs by big_hairy_mama (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @06:31PM
        • Re:vi vs emacs by Unknown Bovine Group (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @10:29AM
      • Re:vi vs emacs by anandsr (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @04:13AM
    • Re:Whelp... by CmdrPinkTaco (Score:3) Monday December 10 2001, @05:04PM
    • Re:Whelp... by moncyb (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @08:06PM
    • Advice for the new maintainer... by jd (Score:2) Tuesday December 11 2001, @10:08AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Short and to the point answers? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Squeezer (132342) <awilliam AT mdah DOT state DOT ms DOT us> on Monday December 10 2001, @03:51PM (#2683816) Homepage
    Not trying to flame or troll, but is it just me, or are his answers short and to the point, unline a lot of other Slashdot interviews where the interviewer would give a paragraph or two answer on every question?
  • Code style? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Pyrosz (469177) <amurray&stage11,ca> on Monday December 10 2001, @03:57PM (#2683848) Homepage
    How are you going to deal with the submissions from people like IBM and SGI who are going to want to make significant changes to 2.4?

    MT: If their changes are non intrusive and I agree with the way they are coded, sure I'll apply them. Why not?


    Whats he mean by "... and I agree with the way they are coded"? If it works and has nothing bad in it, why would he reject it?

    • Re:Code style? (Score:4, Informative)

      by pbur (88030) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:03PM (#2683877)
      If you were on the Linux Kernel Mailing List the past two weeks, you would have seen how much email your simple question can generate. The flame war about style lasted for at least 3 days. Check the thread at:

      http://www.uwsg.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kern el /0111.3/index.html

      Search the page for "Coding style - a non-issue" (subject of the thread) and read for a while.....

      Pbur
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Code style? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Chainsaw (2302) <czwNO@SPAMhome.se> on Monday December 10 2001, @04:05PM (#2683889)
      /* Not accepted */
      int fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck = 2;
      int fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck = fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck + 2;

      /* Accepted */
      int min_value = 2;
      int max_value = min_value + 2;
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Code style? by big.ears (Score:2) Monday December 10 2001, @04:27PM
        • Re:Code style? by Chainsaw (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:51PM
          • poor C... by Sunda666 (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @07:51PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Code style? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:04PM
          • Re:Code style? by psamuels (Score:2) Tuesday December 11 2001, @05:20AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Code style? by Anonymous DWord (Score:2) Monday December 10 2001, @05:09PM
          • Re:Code style? by big.ears (Score:2) Monday December 10 2001, @05:57PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Code style? by Woko (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:52PM
        • Re:Code style? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @07:46PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re: Why 2? by vrt3 (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @03:21AM
    • Re:Code style? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Azog (20907) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:08PM (#2684248) Homepage
      As a reader of the kernel development mailing list, I think I can answer this question, although I certainly don't claim to speak for Marcelo or anyone else...

      You have to understand that most of the "development" that goes on in the stable series is actually bug fixes, and "new features" are mostly new drivers that don't affect the core code. New features that affect the core code are much less likely to be accepted, Marcelo will likely tell the person to send it to Linus for the 2.5 series.

      The kernel maintainer, (Alan for 2.2, Marcelo for 2.4, Linus for 2.5) has to look at new code submissions with the question "What will it be like to maintain this code?"

      In some ways, this is more important than if it actually works or not - if the design and code is very clean and straightforward, and has minimal dependencies, then future bug fixes and maintenance will be easy. If the code has a fragile design, or uses a coding style completely different from the rest of the kernel, then other developers will have a hard time reading it, fixing it, and updating it.

      If code like that gets into the kernel, it would become an unmaintainable heap of crap. Even if each individual new feature "worked".

      This is one of the things that Linus is pretty good at. (At least for the core code, Alan Cox apparently thinks Linus lets too much crappy code get into the drivers... but now I'm spreading stories from the mailing list without the benefit of the context, so take that with a grain of salt.)

      Or read the mailing list yourself. But be warned, I had 582 messages in my inbox this morning, and that was just the kernel mailing traffic from the weekend.
      [ Parent ]
    • Because Form != Function by Adhoc (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:16PM
    • Re:Code style? by nick-less (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:45PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Interview suggestion... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by FortKnox (169099) on Monday December 10 2001, @03:58PM (#2683854) Homepage Journal
    ...How about we start a couple interviews of the slashdot staff (CmdrTaco, Michael, Hemos, Roblimo, JonKatz, timothy)?

    That gives you guys an easy interview, and we get our questions answered straight up.

    Anyone else interested?
    Mods that are interested, mod me up (don't worry, I'm at the cap).
    • FIRST ON THE LIST!!! (Score:5, Informative)

      by mcrbids (148650) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:08PM (#2683902) Homepage Journal


      "Do you guys read your own site?"

      -no.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Interview suggestion... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Otter (3800) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:21PM (#2683969) Journal
      Several of these have already happened: Taco and Hemos [slashdot.org], CowboyNeal [slashdot.org], Jon Katz [slashdot.org]. They've led to informative, straightforward answers like this:

      OlympicSponsor: Seriously, can you give us a breakdown of how much time each editor spends actually reading the site they nominally run? Like, time spent clicking on user comments?

      CowboyNeal: I know from our internal discussion lists and channels, that all of us are constantly reading the site, but as for a detailed breakdown, I'd have no idea where to start.

      Segmond: Have you ever used "super moderating power" to mod down posts attacking slashdot editors...?

      CowboyNeal: As for "super moderating power", I know I could go into the database and moderate like crazy, but my ethics won't allow me to do so. Also, I don't usually read comments attached to stories.

      Truth is, most of the editors seem to have gotten completely bored with the site but for whatever reasons feel compelled to keep plugging on. They've long since given up caring about it and seem mystified that any of the readers would care either.

      [ Parent ]
    • Nice try by roystgnr (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:25PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • No bloat (Score:1, Redundant)

    by Compuser (14899) on Monday December 10 2001, @03:58PM (#2683856)
    I hope his code is as unbloated as his answers.
    Coolest interview to date.
  • Priorities... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by [amorphis] (45762) on Monday December 10 2001, @03:59PM (#2683857)
    However, please note that right now I'm giving higher priority to fixing problems than to writing extended changelogs.

    Poor/Incomplete/Out of date documentation is the Achilles Heel of open source.
    • Re:Priorities... by Pyromage (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:07PM
    • Re:Priorities... by nether (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @04:11PM
    • Re:Priorities... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by CoolVibe (11466) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:25PM (#2683987) Journal
      Not really... The real 'heel' is the tedious/irritating work that needs to be done. Documentating stuff is irritating and tedious and thus is a part of that problem. It is not *the* heel, but one of the heels :-).

      One thing is writing user manuals, which is something that can be done by non-developers and is much easier solved But documentating APIs and code is something that needs to be done by developers, who rather spend time writing working code than writing up to date docs. Somehow the documentation process always gets the lowest priority.

      If you were developing in your free time, what would you rather do? Write code or write docs? I guess you know the answer :-) Guess what gets done last (or when there's some time to waste)?

      Same btw, goes for code reviews and bugfixing of lower priority bugs (bugs which are kind of irritating but not critical).

      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • documentation (Score:5, Interesting)

      by applejacks (536591) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:01PM (#2684213) Homepage
      Remember back in college when the professors took off points for lack of documentation. Comments from them usually include something as, "Sure you know how it works, but what about me." It was the first commandment of programming. So I think it should be one of the first changes to be made by commiters and developers posting patches. That includes all mighty Cox and Tourvalds taking some time to document some routine functions in the source code tree. There is some commenting that is relevant and some that has no purpose being there at all. BSD people should hush up too. They are just as bad. Yeah I know I should be willing to sit down with a pepsi and read through yards and yards of code. I shouldn't have too. I should be able to get an idea of the logic behind a fuction from your documentation. grade 60% you fail, repeat the class....
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Priorities... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by zerocool^ (112121) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:13PM (#2684276) Homepage Journal
      Poor/Incomplete/Out of date documentation is the Achilles Heel of open source.

      I would have to disagree with this. While poor documentation does hurt one open source project against another, actual help files, FAQ's, and newbie files are rampant in linux - from a broad base I think mandrake 8.1 is better documented than windows. As to specific documentation in the kernel etc, yeah, its poorly documented, but you're missing 2 important points - one: its poorly documented across the board, and two: when's the last time you saw the documentation in kernel32.dll for windows? ANY documenting is better than none. The fact that we can see the source in and of itsself makes it superior to anything non-open.

      ~z
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Priorities... by RoscoHead (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:19PM
    • Re:Priorities... by blakestah (Score:3) Monday December 10 2001, @05:21PM
    • Not in the kernel by raistlinne (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @11:49PM
    • Yes, but by Tony-A (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @08:42PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What people will say (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Syberghost (10557) <syberghost@NOspaM.eiv.com> on Monday December 10 2001, @04:01PM (#2683871) Homepage
    The best thing a maintainer of a stable kernel tree can hope will be said after his reign is:

    Nothing. The less that ends up being said, the better a job he's done.
  • Remember the Anagram (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 10 2001, @04:05PM (#2683887)
    'Storm a toilet, AC' = 'Marcelo Tosatti'.

    Spread the word.
  • "Worst... Interview... Ever!" (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Spoons (26950) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:05PM (#2683888) Homepage
    I don't know, dude.

    Come on! This guy is the kernel maintainer? I know I will probably get modded down as flamebait because I am not singing his praises about being concise and to the point, but that interview was awful! I can't believe he is suppose to be the point of contact of anybody (read IBM, HP etc) that want to submit patches to be in the 2.4 tree. It looks like he spent about 10 minutes answering these questions, I can only hope he takes his job maintaining the kernel seriously. This interview certainly doesn't instill confidence in his ability to maintain the tree.

  • spreading rumors about me (Score:2, Funny)

    by nomadic (141991) <nomadicworld@gmail . c om> on Monday December 10 2001, @04:05PM (#2683891) Homepage
    You asked Marcelo about everything from the influence of politics (age and otherwise) to his working enviroment and approach to maintainership

    No I didn't.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Formatting (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by Spy Hunter (317220) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:06PM (#2683893) Journal
    Geez, can't the Slashdot editors spend 5 minutes looking over the article to make sure they didn't miss any <P> or <BR> tags or closing brackets? I mean come on, the formatting errors are really annoying and could only take 5 minutes to find and fix.
    • Re:Formatting by RoscoHead (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:21PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by Wakko Warner (324) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:10PM (#2683915) Homepage Journal
    Does anyone really expect to be able to run the latest kernel on their 386/486 machines? Let's think about it: Your system was built and purchased probably between 1989 and 1992. It is now almost 2002. That's really not a bad run for something so antiquated. Should the people who work on the modern 2.4 (and now 2.5) kernels really have to bend over backwards to support such ancient hardware? If you want a kernel for your 10-year-old hardware, use 2.2 or 2.0. If you want to take advantage of new hardware, use 2.4 or 2.5. Why is it that people can't understand this?

    - A.P.
  • by Emil Brink (69213) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:13PM (#2683925) Homepage
    I can't seem to make sense of the answers to questions #4 and #18, about putting the kernel in CVS or similar system. Marcelo wrote, in response to Q#4:
    However, I could export my local CVS, yes. I might do that in the future.
    And then, to Q18:
    No, I'm not going to put the kernel in any kind of version control system because I have to know what goes into the kernel.
    Last time I used it, CVS was a version control system. So, am I the only one to think this question can't be answered with "yes" and "no" at the same time and still make sense? To me, this is just plain weird, and if this was a "real" interview, I'd think bad thinks about the interviewer. Now I guess I'll have to settle for the editors, as a few others in the thread already have. Heh. ;^)
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 10 2001, @04:14PM (#2683931)
    I just want a working, stable kernel.

    For some reason, though, I like this guy.

    Maybe it's because of his short and to the point answers. :) After hearing 'fluff' from both commercial and non-commercial developers for so long, it's nice to hear a one-sentence answer that doesn't leave one puzzled.
  • LTP not STP (Score:5, Informative)

    by modus (122983) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:19PM (#2683955) Homepage
    I think he meant he wants to use LTP [sgi.com], not STP.

    STP isn't much use for testing kernel pre-releases.
  • Wonder when he'll change his mind? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by WillSeattle (239206) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:23PM (#2683982) Homepage
    What operating systems and platforms do you personally use and which ones do you also use (and why)?

    MT: I use Linux for work and sometimes I use Windows to play games.


    Man, sounds kind of like why I still have the Win box at home - to play games. I'm wondering if/when he'll finally decide to switch - I'm expecting to dump my last Win box when I get the Mandrake 8.1 with The Sims bundle (WINE plus DirectX support).

    I know that people believe we should all play Linux games, but the reality is that most of us still have Windows cause of the games. We don't really care why we can finally get rid of it, but we need something workable.

    -
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 10 2001, @04:26PM (#2683996)
    Ideally, every changelog should answer the following questions:
    • What was done
    • Who did it
    • When
    • Where (i.e., file, routine, etc)
    • Why (i.e., what was the problem)
  • Big Bus (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mr. Fred Smoothie (302446) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:29PM (#2684021)
    What's it like knowing that, if (God forbid) Linus and Alan were hit by a bus, you might be "The Man"?

    Linus lives in Silicon Valley, Alan in Swansea, Wales. That's one monster bus.
    • Re:Big Bus by CtrlPhreak (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:04PM
    • Re:Big Bus by RoscoHead (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @05:31PM
      • Re:Big Bus by OblongPlatypus (Score:2) Monday December 10 2001, @05:58PM
    • Re:Big Bus by igaborf (Score:1) Monday December 10 2001, @10:51PM
    • Re:Big Bus by macshit (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @12:10AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Kernel changelogs (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cr@ckwhore (165454) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:43PM (#2684111) Homepage
    I really like the idea of better changelogs explaining fixes and problems to the "end users". Granted, the "end users" compiling their own kernels are generally not typical computer users... some changelog lines are easy to understand while others aren't. The understanding is based solely on the users knowledge of the inner workings of the system.

    I don't necessarily think that end user style changelogs should be of much concern to core kernel developers. Obviously, they should be concentrating on fixing problems. However, I have an idea that should make everybody happy...

    A group of kernel savvy & knowledgeable systems experts should get together and form an open changelog review project. This project could work alongside the core kernel team for the sole purpose of documenting kernel changes, answering the questions of why, where, how, etc.

    This would achieve great kernel documentation, and avoid putting that added stress on the kernel team. Thoughts?
    • Re:Kernel changelogs (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Error27 (100234) <[error27] [at] [gmail.com]> on Monday December 10 2001, @07:07PM (#2684881) Homepage Journal
      I don't like to advise most people to use the most recent kernels. I know that sometimes you need to for driver purposes.

      Right now, for example, I'm using 2.4.17-pre6 because it's the first kernel with drm support for sis. But that was clearly marked in the changelog.

      For most people, I just say they should probably stick with their distro's kernel. Those will be more thouroughly tested.

      Anyways, it doesn't matter to most end users if the changelogs were longer. Only a minority of end users would be able to understand them or care. Take Andrea's changelogs. They are normally quite in depth. Here is an actual excerpt: [kernel.org]

      Only in 2.4.15pre1aa1: 10_vm-13

      Latest vm updates. Most important if we take a swapin on
      an exclusive swap cache that is getting swapped out (so
      locked) we don't need to lock_page or to do_wp_page, we
      can takeover the swapcache despite it's locked, if it's
      exclusive. This is possible because we can learn if it's exlcusive
      without the need of taking the page lock thanks to latest Linus's saner
      locking recent changes. So this update still delivers non blocking minor
      swapin faults, _but_ without wasteful cows.


      I mean... wasteful cows???

      Of course, I'm fairly sure that if you wanted to write some really great changelogs then either kerneltrap.org or linuxtoday.com would post them for you. I would definately read them.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Kernel changelogs by KjetilK (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @06:37AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 10 2001, @04:54PM (#2684170)
    Marcelo, could you please patch Kernel 2.4 so that it compiles and runs on my 8088? I recently upgraded to 16MB EMS RAM, and an 80 MB hard drive, RLL! I'd like to put Linux on it, but obviously that's not an option. Yet.

    Unless Linux runs on my 8088, the terrorists have already won.

    P.S. In any case, good luck on 2.4 and everything!

  • interview answers [sic] (Score:4, Troll)

    by cpfeifer (20941) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:57PM (#2684191) Homepage
    I've read longer haikus than some of those answers! I guess it makes sense though, he's the 2.4 kernel maintainer, not the 2.4 kernel spokesperson.

    I have to agree with several posts that say inaccurate documentation is OSS Achilles' Heel. Sure, you could just jump in the fire and learn, but why not help folks out with some documentation?

    What good is an OSS project if no devs join the construction effort and no users can figure out how to make it work? I'm not saying that you need a big fancy website and tons of UML diagrams, but don't just dump a pile of code and a makefile in my lap and expect me to be as giddy as a schoolgirl about the project.
  • Poor sound??? (Score:1, Troll)

    by Stiletto (12066) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:12PM (#2684268) Homepage

    What's this crap about sound not working? I've had sound working on my box since... jeez... '97 or '98.. I've never touched ALSA (and indeed am skeptical of what good it is).

    Any ALSA people here who can explain what it buys you over the standard kernel tree?
  • Alsa? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Kagato (116051) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:18PM (#2684299) Homepage
    What's the deal with Alsa? I mean Suse has been behind it for quite some time now. The code seems fairly mature these days. People have been talking about merging it into the Kernal for years. What's the deal? Has OSS really jumped ahead recently in features, or does Alsa have a lot of bugs we don't know about?
    • Re:Alsa? by Dr.Dubious DDQ (Score:3) Monday December 10 2001, @05:25PM
    • Re:Alsa? by SuzanneA (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @01:06AM
      • Re:Alsa? by SuzanneA (Score:1) Tuesday December 11 2001, @01:16AM
    • Re:Alsa? by Luyseyal (Score:2) Tuesday December 11 2001, @09:45AM
    • Re:Alsa? by Xylantiel (Score:1) Wednesday December 12 2001, @06:00AM
  • Linux Dude #3 uses windows.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pwagland (472537) on Monday December 10 2001, @05:22PM (#2684325) Journal
    What operating systems and platforms do you personally use and which ones do you also use (and why)?

    MT: I use Linux for work and sometimes I use Windows to play games.

    You know this really should scare lokigames and the other linux game manufacturers...Here is there target market publicly stating that he uses windows for games.

    I can't that you can blame him, personally I don't run windows, but I also don't play many games... However, almost all of the really good games at the moment are either console or PC only.

    Most of the rest of the interview was pretty much what you would expect anyone to say, this is the only bit that jumped out and said "boo" to me. If we can keep him to his promises though Marcelo looks to be every bit as good a maintainer as Alan and Dave.

  • ALSA (Score:3, Informative)

    by matusa (132837) <chisel@NOSPaM.gmail.com> on Monday December 10 2001, @05:55PM (#2684500) Homepage
    ALSA is a major code change and will not happen on a minor release. Expect it for inclusion only with development trees (and then rather early on).

    I won't believe any claims regarding this until it happens however. There has been a push to include it for a long time.

    Luckily the project has gotten past it's biggest old problem, which was constantly, drastically, and suddenly changing the API, breaking many programs and pissing lots of people off, not to mention making it completely in flux.

    we'll see
    • Re:ALSA by Luyseyal (Score:3) Tuesday December 11 2001, @09:48AM
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  • best NON-interview ever (Score:2, Funny)

    by anlprb (130123) on Monday December 10 2001, @06:08PM (#2684587)
    This was the best non-interview slashdot has had in a long time. Let me illustrate his "interviewing" style to you.

    Question: Will you introduce XXX into the kernel?

    Answer: I will do the job of kernel maintainer.

    Question 2: Do you like cheese?

    Answer: I will do the job of kernel maintainer.

    Question 3: Do you know your pants are on fire.

    Answer: Only if it is in regards to maintaining the kernel.

    I have seen more personality on a head of moldy lettuce. But hey, good luck to you man, and don your flame retardant suit, you are going to need it.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by The Bungi (221687) <thebungi@gmail.com> on Monday December 10 2001, @07:17PM (#2684927) Homepage
    To those posters that have been complaining about MT's laconic answers, consider that the man's first language is obviously not English. He's an Italian living in Brazil, fer sakes.

    Plus, I'd rather have concise "yes" and "no" than "well, let me start by talking about my childhood..." or "I did not have sex with that woman" deals that we see all too often in these interviews.
  • by KidSock (150684) on Monday December 10 2001, @07:23PM (#2684949)
    I know this really, shouldn't matter; if you're qualified, you should be given a chance. But this person looks *very* young [conectiva.com.br]. He must have spent quite a significant part of his life in front of a CRT. That's not a good way to make a balanced human being.
  • by luizcab (542876) on Monday December 10 2001, @09:12PM (#2685267)
    Marcelo gave a good interview to a Brasilian magazine, talking about his self and how he met linux. the interview is in portugese but you can use some sort of translator on it.. Folow the link: http://epoca.globo.com/semanal/_materias/entrevist a.htm
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  • Curt is not a problem (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Apostata (390629) <apostata@h[ ]ail.com ['otm' in gap]> on Monday December 10 2001, @09:39PM (#2685347) Homepage Journal

    Okay, fine: the interview was a little dry. Perhaps, 5 years from now, we'll have trouble remembering it.

    What the hell do you expect from a kernel maintainer? Trust me, you don't want revved-up and passionate...because he'll make revved-up and passionate mistakes. Marcello wasn't hired because of his strong views on the future of technology...he probably just does his job really well. I wish I could say the same about many people I've worked with.
  • by Penguinoflight (517245) on Monday December 10 2001, @09:42PM (#2685357) Homepage Journal
    I run linux 2.4 on my 486 notebook, it worked fine when the machine had 8mb of ram, in fact, there's a slight speed increase from 2.2.19. Kernel bloat may be becoming a problem in source size, etc, but it's not bad enough that you can't use linux 2.4.16 on your 486/386 with 8mb of ram. You may on the other hand have to compile your own kernel, instead of using the one redhat compiled with every driver and it's brother. Don't fall back on versions because some of the new versions are bloated, just use a less bloated distro, say Slackware.
  • Interview from Marcelo ! Real video ! (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 11 2001, @12:59AM (#2685733)
    rtsp://mediafarm2.rjo.embratel.net.br/~parana-d/pr 2linux091101.rm
  • No surprise here. (Score:1)

    by kraf (450958) on Tuesday December 11 2001, @02:22AM (#2685927)
    Probably I will get modded down for saying this, but why should he care about answering to slashdot ?

    What has slashdot contributed to linux ?
    It's full of elitist who think they are gods because they can install redhat 7.2.
    It's full of idiots who overload kernel.org when there are mirrors in each country.
    It's full of whiners who want this and that feature in the kernel yet never contribute even in the form of a simple bug report.

    Ok, I _am_ surprised a bit, namely why in hell did he agree to this interview...
  • by inerte (452992) on Tuesday December 11 2001, @06:57AM (#2686376) Homepage Journal
    Okay, so I am from Brazil and this might sound a little biased. But Marcello won't be maintaining the kernel alone. The open source commmunity, so proud that they have something where everyone can contribute and modify to their needs, can't see this?

    He works for Conectiva, which is IMHO a large player on the Linux distribution companies. They went to the 'give support and consulting' model of business way before many of United States companies. They have a Debian's apt similar tool that can fetch and check for RMPs (from Red Hat) dependencies, and install everything from the internet. They contribued a lot with the code on every part of Linux, and a lot of documentation and HOW-TOs.

    So, based on Marcello's answer, I don't believe he will add, delete or modify almost anything on the kernel without heavily input from his co-workers.

    Just to remind that one of the main ideas behind open source (collaboration...) can, and probaly WILL, be applied.
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  • Mmmmnnnnn... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by MiniChaz (163137) on Tuesday December 11 2001, @06:59AM (#2686377) Homepage
    Many of the attacks on Marcello here are silly. Try answering an interview in French or something and I bet your answers are short and not particularly sweet.

    On the other hand I am not sure Marcello was the correct choice for 2.4 maintainer (no offense intended... read on). In my opinion Alan should have handed the relatively mature codebase that is 2.2 on to Marcello so he could get to grips with maintaining something that is already pretty mature. Giving him 2.4 is kinda throwing him in at the deep end because we all know it has a long way to go before it is what it could be. Also, with 2.4, SGI, IBM and all the others will be hounding him with patches that they want in the kernel, this would have been less of a problem with 2.2.

    However... I love to be proved wrong. :-) Good luck Marcello!

    (PS: I think the biggest complement a maintainer can get is to be told that you want him to maintain the next kernel release too. Thanks Alan.)
  • by SirSlud (67381) on Monday December 10 2001, @04:15PM (#2683935) Homepage
    Man, someone out there sure feels threatened .. hard to believe someone is so worried as to spend the time pasting this form-post in /. threads.

    One wonders what this guys trying to defend. I wish this guy who let us know for whom he works, and what he does ...
    [ Parent ]
  • This is a troll. I know this, not because the poster's name is SlaveTroll (though that adds a reasonable amount of suspicion in itself) but because the logic he uses to obtain his figures is so absurd, his post can be nothing other than a troll.

    Don't get me wrong; I love trolls. And I love it even more when they get past the Mods ;)

    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by cduffy (652) <charles+slashdot@@@dyfis...net> on Monday December 10 2001, @05:21PM (#2684321)
    ...because they're the folks who like simple, straightforward and correct answers without extra fluff. By contrast, those who insist on being fed bullshit (why? as a respect thing?) make the other half of the userbase (I almost said "community", but that'd be wrong) all too visible.
    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Mixed (Score:1)

    by rjamestaylor (117847) <rjamestaylor@gmail.com> on Monday December 10 2001, @05:49PM (#2684466) Homepage Journal
    Exactly wrong. Bill Clinton didn't know how to answer any question tersely. He was a master politician. Even when he was deflecting he was eloquent (and deflection is probably why he learned to be so eloquent).

    His style is more akin to no-nonsense GWB. Thankfully, too.

    Bill Clinton is more closely macthed in style by RMS.

    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Versioning (Score:1)

    by Carl Drougge (222479) on Tuesday December 11 2001, @09:12AM (#2686635)
    Who the hell made .10 larger than .9? It's stupid, just go to 2 decimal places if you have to, not pick a conflicting system

    10 is bigger than 9. "." is not a decimal-marker, it's a general separator (as clearly evidenced by the fact that there are two of them). Now I agree it would probably have been better to use, say ":" instead, but is it really that hard to substitute it in your head?

    (The trolls were starving.. =)

    [ Parent ]
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