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DVD Hack Delays DVD Audio

Posted by CmdrTaco on Thu Dec 02, 1999 12:47 PM
from the you-gotta-be-kidding dept.
An anonymous reader noted an article that is running over on CNN that is discussing the news that DVD Audio will be delayed while manufacturers attempt to implement strong encryption to prevent the same thing from happening to DVD Audio that happened to DVD Video. They are still operating under a fundamentally flawed assumption: if we can decrypt it to watch it, someone will figure out a way to decrypt it to rip it. The delays hurt their profits as well as irritate their customers that want new products. Its quite frusterating.
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  • Why DVD Audio? (Score:3)

    by Splork (13498) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:50AM (#1485957) Homepage
    Not 100% on topic, but:

    What exactly -is- DVD Audio supposed to provide that a CD don't? 5.1 surround concert CDs? 10 hours of music? More expensive players?

    just curious..
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by cybaea (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:52AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by verybusy (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:53AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? (Score:5)

    by Jeffrey Baker (6191) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:53AM (#1485961)
    DVD-A will be 96kHz at 24 bits per sample. This means that the signal amplitude will have 256 times the resolution of CD audio, and the sampling errors will be pushed further out into the ultrasonic range.

    -jwb

  • Urk (Score:5)

    by tweek (18111) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:54AM (#1485962) Homepage Journal
    Rob,
    I think using the phrase "rip it" was probably a poor choice. My take on the whole DVD deal was that I just want to watch them under linux and not have to run a proprietary OS to do it. I don't want to have to buy 2 dvd players (one for the living room and one for the bedroom). Using phrases like "rip it" make you think of copyright violation via copying.

    just a thought. not a flame.
  • How is that a fundamental flaw? by FallLine (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:54AM
  • by rawrats (16165) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:54AM (#1485964) Homepage
    From the DVD FAQ [dvddemystified.com]:

    [1.12] What about DVD-Audio or Music DVD?
    When DVD was released in 1996 there was no DVD-Audio format, although the audio capabilities of DVD-Video far surpassed CD. The DVD Forum sought additional input from the music industry before defining the DVD-Audio format. A draft standard was released by the DVD Forum's Working Group 4 (WG4) in January 1998, and version 0.9 was released in July. The final DVD-Audio 1.0 specification was approved in February 1999 and released in March. DVD-Audio products will show up in late 1999 at the earliest (Panasonic has announced DVD-Audio/DVD-Video players for October 1999). The delay is being caused by the slow process of selecting copy protection features (encryption and watermarking). A watermarking technology was supposed to have been chosen from the top two contenders: Aris Technologies and Blue Spike. (Aris press releases in late June touted itself as the winner but there has been no official announcement.) Proposals from Cognicity, IBM, and Solana were eliminated during testing, although Solana later merged with Aris.) The evaluation process is being done by major music companies in conjunction with the 4C Entity, comprising IBM, Intel, Matsushita, and Toshiba. It's possible that the RIAA's Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI) could push the introduction of DVD-Audio into 2000.

    DVD-Audio is a separate format from DVD-Video. DVD-Audio discs can be designed to work in DVD-Video players, but its possible to make a DVD-Audio disc that won't play at all in a DVD-Video player, since the DVD-Audio specification includes new formats and features, with content stored in a separate "DVD-Audio zone" on the disc (the AUDIO_TS directory) that DVD-Video players never look at. New DVD-Audio players are needed, or new "universal players" that can play both DVD-Video and DVD-Audio discs.

    Plea to producers: Universal players won't be available for some time, but you can make "universal discs" today. With a small amount of effort, all DVD-Audio discs can be made to work on all DVD players by including a Dolby Digital version of the audio in the DVD-Video zone.
    Plea to DVD-Audio authoring system developers: Make your software do this by default or strongly recommend this option during authoring.

    DVD-Audio (and universal) players will work with existing receivers. They output PCM and Dolby Digital, and some will support the optional DTS and DSD formats. However, most current receivers can't decode the high-definition PCM audio (see 3.6.1 for details), and even if they could it can't be carried on standard digital audio connections. DVD-Audio players with high-end digital-to-analog converters (DACs) can be hooked up to receivers with two-channel or 6-channel analog inputs, but some quality will be lost if the receiver converts back to digital for processing. Future receivers with improved digital connections such as IEEE 1394 (FireWire) will be required to use the full digital resolution of DVD-Audio.

    The music industry has requested an "embedding signalling" or "digital watermark" copy protection feature. This uses signal processing technology to apply a digital signature and optional encryption keys to the audio in the form of supposedly inaudible noise so that new equipment will recognize copied audio and refuse to play it. Audiophiles claim this degrades the audio.

    In the meantime, the DVD-Video standard includes surround sound audio and better-than-CD audio (see 3.6.2).

    Sony and Philips have developed a competing Super Audio CD format. (See 3.6.1 for details.) SACD provides "legacy" discs that have two layers, one that plays in existing CD players, plus a high-density layer for DVD-Audio players. Ironically, initial price for these dual-layer discs will be higher than for a standard CD plus a standard DVD. Sony released version 0.9 of the SACD spec in April 1998, the final version is expected in April 1999. SACD technology will be available to existing Sony/Philips CD licensees at no additional cost.
  • DVD Audio format? by ... James ... (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:55AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by Rob_u (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:56AM
  • Retard-O-vision (Score:3)

    by 1010011010 (53039) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:56AM (#1485967) Homepage
    "Great product, but it's too easy to use. Add some needless encryption or something."

    Currently, I can play CDROMs on my computer. With the data encrypted, the playback unit will have to have the key and decoder. For stereo equipment, it'll work like DVD video does, I assume. But will computer audio now be windows-only? Until it's cracked again?

    Will the "completely new encoding system" raise the hackles of ITAR?

    CSS2 must not have been much more secure than CSS, much egg for the faces of Intel, IBM and Toshiba.
  • Oh my, yes. (Score:3)

    by Demona (7994) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:56AM (#1485968) Homepage
    Yes, it's the fault of those evil hackers that people think they have the right to do what they want with the product they've paid money for (we've gone into excruciating detail comparing this with shrinkwrap licensing "agreements"). How dare they?

    On a more serious note, I hear that after this year, all DVD players MUST have region locking enabled in hardware...but it's only a matter of time before someone breaks from the pack, like Plextor did with Digital Audio Extraction in CD-ROM drives. Even to the uneducated, apathetic layman, stuff like this makes no sense, and annoys them to the point where it may galvanize them into either breaking the "security" (bad enough from the industry's standpoint) -- or worse, educating themselves on the issues and becoming a real threat.

    Big Government and Big Business don't want you thinking (or creating) for yourself. Just sit back, shut up and eat your gruel, citizen-unit.

  • by Doctor Fishboy (120462) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:56AM (#1485969)
    More of a question than a comment:

    Is there a danger that companies will pull out of the video DVD market now they are frightened of ripping? Although the DVD market is strong here in America, I know that in Britain it is still taking off, and I could imagine big companies panicking and cutting out of the British Video DVD market until another 'secure' video scheme comes along.

    Even though millions of dollars have been invested in DVD, I wouldn't be too surprised at seeing companies cutting their losses...

    Any thoughts on this, or am I being too paranoid?
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by jejones (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:57AM
  • So? by Indomitus (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:57AM
  • The other fundamental flaw. by Shafik (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:57AM
  • Hah. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:58AM
  • ITAR? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:58AM
  • Reinventing the crypto wheel... again *sigh* by neophase (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM
  • Waiting game (Score:3)

    by technos (73414) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM (#1485976) Homepage Journal
    All this accomplishes lost revenue on the new product and an tapped R+D budget. Even if they use a key four times larger than the last, it is still only a matter of months before someone manages to unlock them. Then we have the MPAA and the RIAA screaming again, and the cycle repeats.

    There are millions of brains and PC's out here waiting to beat the system that only a dozen of them engineer. Who do you think wins? Not Matsushita and certainly not the RIAA!
  • by alexhmit01 (104757) on Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM (#1485977)
    The Label's need to realize that the business model of charging for distribution is starting to collapse. MP3s are currently on the fringe, but as MP3 ripping technology and transferring becomes easier, and MP3 Hardware solutions (for cars, etc.) becomes more popular, there isn't going to be a major market for an encrypted DVD Audio. If you can buy a CD for a few dollars less than you can rip, what is the incentive to get a DVD Audio? I mean, for "best of" collections, it is a boon as 2-3 CD collections can be combined on one DVD-Audio, but are current albums limited by the CD's capacity? It would seem like most albums use less than 80% of the CD, why switch to DVD. Also, with the encryption nonsense, DVD players are going to be more expensive than CD-players. It really seems like DVD audio is a solution in search of a problem. I mean, DVD Video is MUCH higher quality than VHS or Laserdisks, while more convenient than Laserdisks. I don't see a clamoring for DVD technology for audio systems. CDs had an advantage over records/tapes (being able to skip around track-by-track with ease). My family, when we had tapes in the car, would always buy the CDs and make two tapes, one for each of my parent's cars. I mean, unless the DVD-Audio comes out with dual-deck CD-players for copying/dubbing, I don't see a clamoring for a new digital format. Minidisks had a technological advantage (somewhat mitigated by MP3 technology), DVD audio doesn't. CD quality is "good enough," and I don't see an improvement in quality really making a different. Alex
  • DVD audio is completly useless by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM
  • Don't they realize? by TheSlack (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by DJ Cricket (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM
  • Re:Oh my, yes. by Alan Shutko (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @07:59AM
  • by Ser\/o (105187) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:00AM (#1485982) Journal
    Did this type of hoopla occur over cassette tapes or CDs when they were new technology? Being in my mid-twenties, I was wee little when these took place, but I would imagine similar concerns over copying audio have been voiced since the availability of easily recordable media. The way I see it is that people are going to find ways to 'rip' the audio, even at a loss in quality, no matter what they try. They did it with tapes and CDs, why would this be any different? But what do I know, encryption isn't one of my strong points.
  • The real problem (Score:3)

    by TheCarp (96830) <sjc.carpanet@net> on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:01AM (#1485983) Homepage
    The REAL problem here is that they are expecting
    to be able to decrypt this on equipment that is
    not under their control.

    What is to stop a person from hacking a DVD drive
    to allow reading (and eventually writting) to
    the entire disk? (as I understand it they rely
    on the DVD drive being able to read a special
    track but there being no way to get the drive to
    divulge that info)

    Alternatly...the music HAS to exist in unencrypted
    form for some span of time. So...if I hack their software I can make it do anything...including
    hack it to output to a file.

    Or better yet...create an Audio Driver that claims
    to have the highest possible quality output
    surround sound and whatever ooptions the software
    might look for to determine what it needs to
    output as....that just captures the output

    The same could be done for DVD movies even.

    Their entire idea is thus fundamentally flawed.
    Encryption just stops John Q Moron who has lots
    of money for buying readers and writters from
    doing a direct copy.

    Someone needs to hack a DVD, figure out the disk
    format and all that shit...and publish enough
    info that independant hardware manafacturers can
    make DVD drives. Force the standard open!
  • Why hack it? by gregstoll (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:01AM
  • by Jeffrey Baker (6191) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:01AM (#1485985)
    Hrmm this seems like quite an exercise in futility. The people who are going to purchase DVD-A players in the early adoption statge are going to be serious audio enthusiasts. These people are going to want to hook their DVD-A players up to an outboard digital-to-analog converter, like the Mark Levinson 36 or 360. Accordingly, the DVD-A player is going to need an unencrypted digital output stream. Thus, it will be trivial to intercept the raw, perfect digital music that is encoded on the DVD.

    Nevertheless, the music industry will undoubtedly come up with some brain-dead scheme to attempt to prevent copying. In historical context, there is a high probability that this move will kill the format. Witness HDCD, whose encoding is a trace secret of the only company that makes the stream decoder. Almost nobody uses HDCD, and nobody really cares about that format anymore. DAT and MD were saddled with stupid copy-protection schemes that made their initial adoption slow. Luckily the enthusiast community was able to overcome these schemes and DAT and MD have found a niche in the hobbiest world.

    In the perfect world, the digital encoding format of DVD-A would be an open, published specification like CD audio is. I expect that the outcome will be the opposite.

    -jwb

  • Another Betamax war? by cybaea (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:03AM
  • Head back to Cap'n Crunch; [webcrunchers.com] there was, in the early days of the Apple ][, the idea of creating a super powerful modem that would be programmable.

    By being programmable, it was inherently able to do the sorts of nefarious things that one would do with a "Blue Box" or any of the other Phone Freaking equipment.

    At the time, Apple concluded that deploying a more freakworthy variation on what had just gotten Draper imprisoned would be a very bad idea.

    That, of course, was a goodly dozen years ago. Time has passed, and the average computer with sound card contains 50 times as much DSP hardware as "scared off" Apple.

    In effect, the modern PC can be programmed to be a phreaking monster.

    Back to DVDs... If they deploy software on PCs that allows reading DVDs, and do not use some form of tamper-resistant hardware-based strong crypto, then the general purpose hardware along with general purpose software represents a potent force to completely crack anything the music folk try to use to prevent unlicensed dissemination of music.

    Furthermore, even with strong crypto, of the DVD happens to be readable by a DVD drive, then copies can be made, even if the music can't be played on one's PC.

    It is evident that the industry moguls are entirely clueless in this...

  • DVD Audio - the need? by hattig (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:04AM
  • Gee... (Score:3)

    by Greyfox (87712) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:04AM (#1485989) Homepage
    Move to an encrypted DVD-audio format that does its damndest to remove my fair use rights to make mix tapes or encode the data to another format or stick to CD's, which has no copy protection and therefore allows me to make a 12 hour MP3 CD that I can carry with me rather than having to carry my entire CD collection. Hmm. What to do what to do?

    The music industry can blow me. I can always find higher quality music from garage bands who don't have a problem distributing their stuff on the net in MP3 format. I'll do my business with companies that support open protocols and don't try to violate my rights in their greedy scramble for more money. Don't let them ease us in to a pay-per-view world.

  • by Ex Machina (10710) <jonathan.williams@NoSpAM.gmail.com> on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:04AM (#1485991) Homepage
    DVD Audio is doomed. Sure, the quality rules. I'd like it. But people have a HUGE investment of money into the CD technology. People want their music to work on their car stero, their boom box and their computer. The high-end technoweenie consumer also dislikes DVD audio because it is not as portable as a handheld digital audio device (mp3man, rio, etc.). Can you imagine how much a DVDAudioMan would cost? And it would be very bulkly. You need decryption on the player.
    This isn't meant to start a flame war, but I think, despite the technical merits of it, DVD Audio is not a comercially viable technology. Perhaps the future of commercial audio recordings is in some encrypted mp3 standard.
  • Frog in the well (Score:3)

    by Gurlia (110988) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:05AM (#1485992)

    "Another frog in the well croaks indignantly against in protest against construction workers who are unearthing the century-old useless well. Joining a whole crowd of other frogs in the well, insisting that the construction workers respect their rights to the well, and the water therein. But some day, the bulldozer will smash through the old well walls, and concrete poured in as they finish the basement of a new high-rise to be."

    Not another pathetic attempt to put the genie back into the bottle. When will people get out of their well and realize that the Information Age cannot be shoe-horned into traditional industrial models? Copy-protection is an old, obsolete concept that just doesn't fit in the modern context of the Internet and the Information Age. This new era is about sharing information, not hiding it. It's about making things available to people, and opening up choices by allowing fair competition to your trade. It's a new set of rules that sells services instead of hogging commidities. Trying to fight this will only shoot themselves in the foot, real hard.

    And here we have yet another obviously traditional, "orthodox" company talking about "increasing encryption key size", while not realizing that the weak link is the fact that information is actually being displayed through the DVD player -- hence it's copiable. They're clinging on to old principles that are quickly becoming obsolete. Pathetic.

    People who intend to survive in the new millenium better break out of their old mentality, and learn to play by the new rules. And they better learn this before the concrete is poured into their well. Time for them to get out of the well and look for higher, better things.

    "Stagnation breeds failure and miserable defeat."

    (BTW please excuse my melodramatic intro :-) )

  • by deanc (2214) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:06AM (#1485993) Homepage
    The solution to these piracy problems with ripping video or audio media is obvious-- encrypt the digital data on the media and prevent it from ever being played in analog form... there you go. If you cannot play a music on your stereo or watch the movie on your television, then noone will be able to make illegal copies of that media. The use of speakers and video displays in conjunction with digital media should be illegal, and then all the piracy fears will be allayed.

    ;)

    -Dean
  • by Outlyer (1767) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:06AM (#1485994) Homepage
    Ok, Mr.Salesman, explain this to me. I buy this player. It has slightly better audio quality, so I can now hear the limitations of the studio where it was recorded. Sounds great! Oh, and I won't be able to use my car stereo, discman, or computer to play it? Even better! And if I manage to get a drive that can read it into my computer, I won't be able to even LISTEN to the music I own unless I run Windows? Oh, sign me up!

    First of all, I don't see independant labels (the ones who produce the most important music anyway) moving to multi-million dollar studios to record something, and I don't see any real value in the added quality. Not so much that I'd want to fsck myself for it. Count me out.
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? (Score:3)

    by Zeni (52928) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:06AM (#1485995)
    As a Sound Engineer, CD audio quality is IMO not as good as analog. (read 1/2" 2-track) For a few reasons, 1) 16bits is not enough. I would love to see DVD audio be 24 bits. 2) Sample rate is too low. With DVD audio we can have a higher sample rate 96khz and up. I haven't been keeping up to date on the specs of DVD audio, so I 'm not sure what the bit and sample rate are going to be.
    Most likely they'll encode all those extra channels. Blech! When I listen to MUSIC, I only want 2 channels. Heh, I guess I'm a purist.
    In essense better audio quality.
    Note I use digital recording as part of my job, but just _prefer_ analog. :-)
    Gotta go to work, or I'd give a more in depth explaination.
  • Re:How is that a fundamental flaw? by Rob Parkhill (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:06AM
  • Re:Was cracking the video DVD done too early? by DJ Cricket (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:07AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by mjackso1 (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:08AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by jyang (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:08AM
  • Why not hack it? by TheCarp (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:09AM
  • Do People Want DVD-Audio? by Balerion (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:09AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by Jeffrey Baker (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:10AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by blazer1024 (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:10AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by AugstWest (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:12AM
  • by kuma (98937) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:13AM (#1486006)
    minna-san:

    this is one of the biggest frustrations imaginable...

    1) the physical media is already difficult to manufacture, but those with deep pockets will have the means to create bootleg copies--this does nothing to really slow down major pirates, and much to confound consumers.

    2) burning dvd-ram copies for sale is long and tedious, and will not have a big impact (how many music and software companies going broke due to the popularity cd-rw drives?).

    3) a good engineering student could hack together a compact disc player, but even with a suite of standard components, would have difficulty building a bare-bones dvd player... when dvd media becomes obsolete, some audio may be effectively lost due to the encryption.

    4) what happens when audio legally purchased on dvd-audio becomes public domain? no one seems to be concerned about all these encryption schemes which potentially lock away information *forever*.

    sincerely, kuma
  • In one sense... by RoLlEr_CoAsTeR (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:14AM
  • Thoughts by PenguinDude (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:16AM
  • poetic justice by Borealis (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:16AM
  • DVD audio isn't needed by Sloppy (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:16AM
  • Re:Urk (Score:3)

    by Chuck Milam (1998) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:17AM (#1486011) Homepage

    Using phrases like "rip it" make you think of copyright violation via copying.

    That fact that phrases like "rip it" immediately conjure up images of "copyright violation via copying" shows just how effectively the RIAA propaganda machine has been doing its job. I regularly rip my legally purchased audio CDs in order to make my own audio CD music mixes for the car, etc. This is perfectly legal--but I'm sure the RIAA will try to find a way to make it appear illegal or, at least, immoral.

  • by Jeffrey Baker (6191) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:17AM (#1486013)
    That's not really true. Analog Devices, Burr-Brown, and Crystal Semiconductor all make DACs with very nice programmable capability up to 24 bits. The problem with most DACs is that the resolution is swamped in noise from RF, cheap power supplies, cheap output stages, etc.

    -jwb

  • Re:The other fundamental flaw. by randombit (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:17AM
  • Re:This really heads back to Cap'n Crunch Draper.. by Loligo (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:19AM
  • Re:Reinventing the crypto wheel... again *sigh* by Sloppy (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:20AM
  • by heroine (1220) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:21AM (#1486017) Homepage
    Like I always said, you can decrypt other people's formats as much as you want but unless the hacker community grows beyond the college lecture hall, the engineers who actually create these formats will forever build stronger encryption. If they don't replace DVD with DVD-2 they'll delay DVD audio. If you decrypt DVD audio they'll just replace it with another format. The only way to win is to become the engineers who create the formats.
  • by David Jao (2759) <djao@dominia.org> on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:21AM (#1486018) Homepage
    Copying does not automatically imply a copyright violation. Most legal experts agree that copying CDs that you own for your own personal listening convenience is legal under fair use even without permission from the copyright owner. For example, if I take my favorite songs from 10 of my CDs and burn them all onto one CD so that I can carry around one CD instead of 10, that's perfectly legal.

    The recording industry would like us to believe (falsely) that any form of copying is illegal. Their entire encryption efforts are based around this false assumption. Rob is entirely right to say that ripping should be technologically allowed. Please don't perpetuate the myth that copying without permission is automatically illegal.

  • Encryption is Futile, Music Will Be Assimilated by RJ11 (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:22AM
  • Re:Urk by Supergrass (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:23AM
  • A new twist by chchchain (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:23AM
  • by Hobbex (41473) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:24AM (#1486022)
    In many ways, I think there is a shift of view here so new that while I see it among us geeks, it has yet to proliferate into the general public. With the PC, and with the coming of age of open, free operating systems, we have reached a point where we dare ask for control over our machines, or more specifically, that they serve us, and no one else.

    If you think back ten years, technology was about companies. A new system or format would come out, and we would all praise the creators for giving us new technology (ok, not everyone, but people who like new technology). We didn't ask for input into the design, and didn't complain very vocally when they were designed for the good of the companies rather than the consumer. The people creating these formats are still stuck in that age where they, a small number of large companies, controlled the means by which we also used them.

    But those days are over. I simply will not invite a machine into my house unless it serves my agenda, and my agenda alone. I don't want a black box that keeps secrets from me, spies on me, controls my freedom, or generally tells me what I can and can't do. I believe that this attitude is the only way we can keep the integrity over our machines in the techno future, and I believe it will spread.


    Regarding the specifics of making these disks hard to crack, they really only have a few options. They could put more keys on each disk, so that they can quickly stop printing one key once it is known to be cracked (damage control, but it means people will have to keep updating their players). And they can use stronger crypto (if they can get by the regulations which seems very difficult), but that only means makes the known plaintext attack that the CSS crackers used to attain all the other keys when they had one implausible, they would still have get first one.

    I'm interested in hearing for people with better insight then myself into this sort of programming, if it is plausible to write a program where the key cannot be retrieved from the memory when the encryption is going on? After all, GPG complains about insecure memory everytime I run it, but that is from other users: this is worse, since it will be me trying to scan the memory for the key. Can it really decrypt things right under my nose without showing what transformations are being applied when analyzed carefully?


    -
    We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
  • Some info for the non-music-oriented by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:24AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? (Score:5)

    by Jeffrey Baker (6191) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:24AM (#1486025)
    Studies have shown that the presence of frequencies above the usually audible range (20Hz-22kHz) help the listener to locate the source of the sound. This is depite the fact that most people can't even hear above 18kHz.

    When a CD is recorded today, the recording process has to ensure that no frequency above 22.05kHz is recorded, else there will be nasty alising problems. This is acheived using a "brick wall" filter, which is a very high order low-pass filter whose -3dB point is at 22.05 kHz. Therefore all information above 22.05kHz is lost, and this is the information that helps the listener locate the sound. With a 96kHz sampling rate, this filter could be moved all the way up to 45.5kHz, well out of any useful range. Better still, it could be moved to 30kHz with a lower order, thereby introducing les noise into the audible range.

    I do tend to agree with your point about getting good speakers. But once you get all the good equipment, you start to really hate the CD audio format.

    -jwb

  • by Booker (6173) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:26AM (#1486027) Homepage
    Sure, but "rip" is an unfortunate choice of words. There may be some RIAA propaganda involved, but still - "rip" is awfully close to "rip off" while "extract" sounds like a much more reasonable thing to do. As in "extract for personal archiving purposes."

    It just doesn't get the conversation off on the right foot when you say "I want to be able to rip copyrighted material under Linux."
    ----
  • Re:DVD Audio - the need? by jyang (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:27AM
  • Re:How is that a fundamental flaw? by belgin (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:27AM
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by Hobbex (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:28AM
  • a few questions by mastagee (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:29AM
  • What about GoVideo by LetterJ (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:30AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by IntlHarvester (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:31AM
  • Re:poetic justice by DeRobeHer (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:31AM
  • It reminds me of rip off. Or riposte. by Hermelin (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:32AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by general_re (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:32AM
  • Pirating DVD's by Parsec (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:33AM
  • by Outland Traveller (12138) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:34AM (#1486040)
    You are allowed by law to make copies of your personal music and software for personal use and backup purposes.

    You might want to listen to the music on a Rio or some other device, or you might want to make a backup copy in case your physical media becomes damaged. You might also want to keep a few copies in different places so you don't have to lug your music collection around with you. It's also fun to manipulate your music on a PC to see what it sounds like backwards and stuff like that.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with "ripping" a CD, and the music industry shouldn't be so caught up in trying to control distribution to the point where their efforts are at odds with technological progress.

    Copying music and then distributing it without permission is against the law, except in very limited circumstances where you can claim fair use (a la Negativland). But there is no reason that simply copying it, without distributing it, is wrong.

    Don't let coporations control more of your life than they already do.

    -OT (who is not a lawyer and knows these statements are not 100% accurate :)
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by SoftwareJanitor (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:35AM
  • Re:Pirating DVD's by Parsec (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:35AM
  • Re:Urk by tweek (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:38AM
  • Re:DVD audio isn't needed by Hobbex (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:39AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by TheMCP (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:41AM
  • Re:Urk by tweek (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:41AM
  • Re:Hah. by Darchmare (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:43AM
  • Re:I just use my earphones for god's sake by Jeffrey Baker (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:44AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by dillon_rinker (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:44AM
  • Re: put all instruments on separate tracks... by CodeShark (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:47AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by kokopeli (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:49AM
  • CSS by jetpack (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:49AM
  • What? Me worry? (Score:3)

    I know, we all love to stamp our feet and jump up and down and say things like we are all saying here. I am as guilty of this as the next guy. But let's think about some things here...

    Way back when CD Audio came out. It was cool. However, you could no more make a CD than you could to press your own album. If you wanted to copy it you used crappy analog audio tape and did it that way.

    Then along come the CD-ROM drives and the CD-writeables. And minidisc and DAT. And the recording industry comes up with SCMS which is so easy to crack it is not even funny. Actually there is not even anything to crack - you change two bits on the bit stream and everything is cool.

    Next we had MP3 show up. The recording industry again comes up with all these protection methods. None of them lasted. That Microsoft thing lasted what, a day?

    DVD is really no different here. It fell and fell fast once MoRE figured it out. Someone else will figure out DVD-Audio. And someone else is gonna figure out whatever other formats show up. They do it for the Playstation by putting in modchips, and I remember a long long time ago in my Atari 800 days there being an addon for the floppy drive to let it write bad tracks so backup copies could be made of the commercial software.

    Some little namby-pamby encryption scheme will not stand the test of time. No way, no how. Copy protection is a total joke. So quit worrying.
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by Cuthalion (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:50AM
  • GoVideo: buy now by Alan Shutko (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:50AM
  • by mosch (204) on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:52AM (#1486062) Homepage

    www.codefreedvd.com [codefreedvd.com] is a British firm that'll happily sell you that DVD player you've been drooling over, but with the ability to play imported DVDs and to get rid of the signal degradation that MacroVision causes.

    It's all a game. hack, counterhack.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 1999, @08:53AM (#1486063)
    Another thing with high frequency sampling that I've always been concerned with but not managed to get my head around is the question of phase of samples and what happens when the samples are at frequencies that do not have the cutoff frequency as a clear harmonic.

    For example, if we are sampling at 48khz, then the highest frequency wave that we can represent is 44khz. However, this assumes that the peaks of the waves are aligned with the sample points. If they are not then the phase is either going to get shifted up to 90 degrees in either direction to be able to represent the waves, or they will be anti-aliased into the wrong amplitude (if they even come out as a wave at all). Even by the time we get down to 11 khz, we still only have a phase resolution of +- 45 degrees. As a lot of the sense of position and space is defined by the phase coherence of a sound (especially in room accoustics) then this 'smudging' of the sound at higher frequencies could be a real problem.

    The second problem is what happens when your frequency isn't a nice divisor of your cutoff frequency. If we go back to our 48 khz sampling rate: we have a 22 khz ceiling (/2) and then the next 'clean' frequency is 16 khz (/3). What happens with the frequencies in between? most likely, you are going to get a beat frequency introduced as amplitude modulation of the signal as it moves on and off the sample clock rate. As you move down the frequencies (/4, /5, /6) then the problems become less pronounced and it is possible to represent more of the wave-forms as a cleanly phase coherent signal.

    I therefore think that it is quite possible that although the theoretical maximum frequency is well up into the super-sonic range, the effect of doubling the sampling frequency will provide a much more natural coherent sound than you would initially assume.

  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:53AM
  • Why rip? by Mandus (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:53AM
  • Re:I think the solution is simple by KnightStalker (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:54AM
  • Much ado about nothing? by Bill the Cat (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:55AM
  • Re:Reinventing the crypto wheel... again *sigh* by Jerf (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:55AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by CRB2500 (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:57AM
  • Re:This really heads back to Cap'n Crunch Draper.. by ucblockhead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:58AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by pen (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @08:59AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by seaportcasino (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:00AM
  • It doesn't mater how strong the lock is . . . by turg (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:00AM
  • soundcards that support 24/96 by mosch (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:01AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by Bobzibub (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:02AM
  • by richnut (15117) on Thursday December 02 1999, @09:03AM (#1486079)
    The thing is, not everyone agrees that CD is "good enough". Pro audio gear is at 24bit 96khz, why shouldn't all of that fidelity be sold to the consumer as well? Some people think MP3 is "good enough" too, and it's not even CD quality. Furthermore they're adding more channels other than right and left to allow for a better listening experience. Are you saying that watching a DVD via stereo speakers and surround sound speakers affords the listener the same experience? Multichannel technologies will allow engineers to record music that makes more subtle nuiances audible.

    Maybe YOU dont want it. But there's a lot of people who do. It's a shame they're going to encrypt it though.

    -Rich
  • Re:Urk by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:04AM
  • Re:DVD Audio - the need? by Steve B (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:04AM
  • Re:Thoughts by Mythias (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:04AM
  • CopyProtection is Bought by the Week by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:05AM
  • Re:Hah. by seaportcasino (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:05AM
  • Re:Pirating DVD's by mastagee (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:06AM
  • Blowing money through a furnace.. by Panaflex (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:11AM
  • DAT anyone? (Score:3)

    by drf (120802) on Thursday December 02 1999, @09:14AM (#1486094)
    Is there even a place for DVD-Audio? Most people wouldn't buy new players for one or two CD's, as DVD-Audio will be pretty expensive at first (as manufacturers ramp up production), and it will take more time to get the DVD electronics in a small package, like a CD Walkman.

    This reminds me of the stuff when DAT came out. DAT was a failure because of all the arguing over copy-protection (as well as being non-random access, but that was less of an issue than having copy-protection schemes voted on by the US Congress).

    DVD-Audio has no place in high-end audio either. People who spend thousands for professional gear tend to stick to standard formats (I've noticed a migration to .WAV files, which is the one of the best ways to store a master because it can easily be converted to an MP3, burnt to a track on a CD, spat out digitally using S/PDIF, or dumped to DAT.) Storing a master on DVD-Audio is not a concept professional sound people would consider -- so many other alternatives, DAT, burnable CD's, MD's, that another entry in this market really wouldn't fly.

    So, if the high-end audiophiles do not have a use for this technology, and Joe Average has to buy fairly expensive equipment, from people who assume he is a thief bent on stealing their music, to listen to discs that sound pretty much the same to an untrained ear, then there isn't much real mass market here.

    The only place I see a place is selling to audio buffs who have to have the best of everything to listen to their CD's, and have to have 24/96 no matter what. However, these people are fairly rare, and probably would resent having to get yet another piece of gear to stick in their rack.
  • Philips condoning Piracy by JabberWokky (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:15AM
  • by _Sprocket_ (42527) on Thursday December 02 1999, @09:16AM (#1486096)
    The recording industry would like us to believe (falsely) that any form of copying is illegal. Their entire encryption efforts are based around this false assumption.
    It might be worth stressing this point a bit more.

    The RIAA does not like the concept of a customer making copies of legal material for their own personal use. The ability to buy a CD then make a tape (or now, burn a copy or burn your own CD mix) for your car irks them. This has gone to court and "fair use" was upheld. Since then, RIAA representatives have made comments that imply their dislike of "fair use" is strong today.

    Enter technology.

    Take a good look at SDMI. Embeded within the specifications is the groundwork to eliminate that pesky "fair use" copying. Technology will enable the industry to eliminate what the courts would not.

    I would expect a simular thought process to rear its ugly head within the DVD arena.

  • Re:The real problem by belgin (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:17AM
  • Yep, you missed it. by Sloppy (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:17AM
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:21AM
  • vynil rox! by Pegasus (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:22AM
  • DVD: Why am I paying microsoft? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:25AM
  • Re:Eliminating Fair Use by Wah (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:28AM
  • Re:Why rip? by Eric Smith (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:32AM
  • Maybe I'm Missing Something here, but.. by Kenneth (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:33AM
  • by bluGill (862) on Thursday December 02 1999, @09:36AM (#1486110)

    I'm trying to understand encryption in the audio world. They encrypt this disk, I can't play it except on autherised players. What is to prevent me, owner of two autherized players and the equipment to burn a DVD (This doesn't exits AFAIK, but it will soon) from making a copy of it? Oh sure, I can't play it in linux (if it is good encryption), but I can now make a couple digital copies of the encrypted disk.

  • Re:A new twist by dmaxwell (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:38AM
  • Re:Seattle WTO Protests by KlomDark (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:41AM
  • Yes but... by Wah (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:42AM
  • by Wakko Warner (324) on Thursday December 02 1999, @09:43AM (#1486117) Homepage Journal
    Most digital studios master to 16/48 or 16/44 at present. 24/96 digital mastering setups are too new and far too expensive for most studios right now. Give it a couple years, and, sure, there will probably be a significant number of major recording studios that master to the new standard, but what about the old stuff that was done to 16/48 or analog, or all the new stuff still being mastered at the old rate? It will sound no different in this new format! I really hope DVD Audio is relegated to the niche market of audio enthusiasts, because most people will not hear a difference at all between it and a normal CD on their stereos.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:44AM
  • Re:poetic justice by timster (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:44AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:49AM
  • Pay-per-view temporary keys. by GossG (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:51AM
  • Re:region locking... by zimbu (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:53AM
  • It has some benefits, and will get cheaper by flatrock (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:54AM
  • Re:Why not hack it? by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:54AM
  • Re:5.1 channels? I have two ears + a brain by UnknownSoldier (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:54AM
  • Strong encryption? by GossG (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:58AM
  • Re:Hmm, I have a stupid question... by UnknownSoldier (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @09:59AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by Pope (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:00AM
  • Re:Gee... by G27 Radio (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:06AM
  • by um... Lucas (13147) on Thursday December 02 1999, @10:06AM (#1486132) Journal
    It reads more like a looming threat to the recording industry... Try to make it so we can't copy your goods and we'll be sure to make it possible.

    From my vantage point, I think that the huge majority of CD-Rs which contain CD-Audio are pirated CD's, not mix CDs or archival CD's... Some of those probably would have been paid for had CD-R's not been so easily accessible.

    DVD Audio has the potential to add value to audio, with better sound quality, possibly more music per disk, and other gimmicks. For that, the industry should be allowed to protect their investment. That being all the money they've shoveled out and fronted to artists, studio's, etc, without knowing how well a particular act is going to sell.

    It's their risk, so it should be their profit. Since DVD exists already, they don't need to go and invent a new form of media in order to add value to the music. But that opens up them up to piracy. So... like any busines, they're trying to cover their butts. If they come out with a format that's "unbreakable" to consumers, but easily crackable by /.er's, it's a win for them. They can lose these sales no problem if it means that the other 99% of the public can't dupe their works...

    ----------

    On a second subject, maybe you all could do something about this by not supporting the industry. Ever thought of that? Don't like it? Don't buy it!!! It's just that easy.

    Go a step further and think for yourself and don't even buy music from the major labels, rather than listen to whatever they shovel your way this week...

    Do SOMETHING more to show your disatisfaction than ramble about how some mean old industry doesn't want anyone to copy their products....
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by Fizgig (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:07AM
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by Hobbex (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:08AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? by dalroth5 (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:09AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by IntlHarvester (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:13AM
  • the real pirates by Wansu (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:15AM
  • You need a fucking PHD for this crap. by Tiger Smile (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:15AM
  • by Tau Zero (75868) on Thursday December 02 1999, @10:17AM (#1486140) Journal
    For example, if we are sampling at 48khz, then the highest frequency wave that we can represent is 44khz.
    24 KHz.
    However, this assumes that the peaks of the waves are aligned with the sample points. If they are not then the phase is either going to get shifted up to 90 degrees in either direction to be able to represent the waves, or they will be anti-aliased into the wrong amplitude (if they even come out as a wave at all).
    Alignment of the signal peaks and the sample points is only an issue near the Nyquist frequency. Below 1/3 of the sample rate you can get essentially perfect reproduction of the original, including phase. That includes pretty much all of the audible frequencies, and all the fundamentals and the first few harmonics of even the highest notes.
    I therefore think that it is quite possible that although the theoretical maximum frequency is well up into the super-sonic range, the effect of doubling the sampling frequency will provide a much more natural coherent sound than you would initially assume.
    What the increased sample rate is really going to do is eliminate the need for re-sampling and/or sharp cutoff filters at 18-20 KHz, which will get rid of a lot of phase distortion up near the limits of audibility. To the extent that phase distortion creates audible artifacts, this will improve the experience.
  • And if anyone complains..... by Nodatadj (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:18AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by m3000 (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:19AM
  • Re:Making copies is not necessarily illegal by David Greene (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:20AM
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by Hobbex (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:21AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by Pope (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:25AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by Cyberfox (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:27AM
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:28AM
  • Re:dvd-audio encryption is ethically misguided by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:31AM
  • Re:How is that a fundamental flaw? by jareds (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:37AM
  • Re:my machines serve me... by platypus (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:37AM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:39AM
  • No such thing as uncrackable. by dmorin (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:40AM
  • Re:How does encryption help? by Hello folks (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:42AM
  • Personal Copying Specifically Legalized? by Lagged2Death (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:45AM
  • Re:Hah. by Creepy (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:46AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by Mindwarp (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:55AM
  • Re:Audio is best in two channels by escher (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:56AM
  • by Black Parrot (19622) on Thursday December 02 1999, @10:56AM (#1486162)
    I can't help but wonder whether attempts at copy protection aren't directly undermining public ethics. Twentysomething years ago, you might expect to hear someone say,
    "Don't bootleg your software/music/whatever instead of buying it; it's ethically wrong."
    Now you'd more likely hear,
    "Don't
    try to bootleg your software/music/whatever instead of buying it; it's copy protected."
    With ethics, "there is no try", but with copy protection it's a simple matter of "do or do not". So the idea that I can't do it because it's wrong is replaced by I can't do it because it's hard, and when the inevitable crack shows up and makes it easy, the can't part disappears, and no one remembers to ask the question that kept most of us from stealing beforehand.

    A naive analysis, perhaps. But I can't help but wonder.

    --
    It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
  • Foreign markets and the region 2-6 DVD boycot by Morgaine (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @10:57AM
  • Re:Eliminating Fair Use by umoto (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:00AM
  • What does "rip" mean? Rip is a technical term for by lwilliams (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:04AM
  • Correction: so that they invest more in R1 stock by Morgaine (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:06AM
  • Re:Philips condoning Piracy by ColinG (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:08AM
  • Re:The Failure of DVD Audio by timothy (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:11AM
  • Good! by mholve (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:17AM
  • Re:am I missing something? by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:23AM
  • Check out this RIAA web site quote by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:25AM
  • Re:A new twist by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:25AM
  • Re:Philips condoning Piracy by gellor (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:26AM
  • Re: Hearing Locations and Phasing by wass (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:27AM
  • It will if the companies need copy protection by VAXman (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:27AM
  • Re:Was cracking the video DVD done too early? by Crossbones (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:27AM
  • Re:my machines serve me... by umoto (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:29AM
  • I know it costs piles of cash. by Tiger Smile (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:29AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 1999, @11:31AM (#1486185)
    From what I've seen, the best pro equipment today has about a 120 dB dynamic range. That corresponds to 20 bits of dynamic range. For comparison, perfect 24 bit data would have 144 dB of dynamic range and perfect 16 bit data has 96 dB.

    Dynamic range is the ratio of the largest signal to the smallest discernable signal in the output for a DAC, or in the input for an ADC. There are many things that can limit the smallest signal a DAC or ADC can resolve and bit depth is just one of them. Of course, the dynamic range of digitized data can NEVER be greater than the maximum for the bit depth being used, but it could easily be less.

    For those of you unfamiliar with signal processing, the important measure is the Effective Number Of Bits (ENOB). This is a measure of the number of bits of information that a DAC or ADC can present in one sample. You could have a million-ka-jillion bit DAC, but the dynamic range will be limited by the analog performance of the DAC so you may have something like 12.6 ENOB. You see this a lot with "CD quality" audio; most low-end CD players and sound cards offer around 14 bit performance with 16 bit samples, but most people can't tell.

    Now, it is VERY difficult to get 144 dB of dynamic range, and even harder to achieve that level of linearity (measured by total harmonic distortion, THD). 144 dB is a ratio of 20,000,000:1. It is EXTREMELY difficult to build circuits that have this level of performance. I'm not even sure if and sampled data systems have achieved 24 bit performance. I do know that the low-noise amplifiers used in the experiments to detect the background radiation of space cost tens of millions of dollars and IIRC involved extreme cooling to reduce the thermal noise.

    My point is that the current limit for production level devices is 120 dB, or 20 ENOB. This is A LOT. Think about this, when describing sound levels (dBspl = dB sound pressure level) 0 dBspl is defined as the smallest sound detectable by human ears. The threshold for permanently damaging your hearing is around 90 dBspl, the threshold for pain is around 110 - 120 dBspl, and the sound level a few mwters behind a jet engine (747 IIRC) is around 140 dBspl.

    We can use these numbers to get an intuitive feel for the dynamic range of various bit depths.

    ENOB Weakest sound Loudest Sound
    16 minimum hearable onset of hearing loss
    20 minimum hearable onset of pain
    24 minimum hearable jet engine

    So, actual 24 bit audio would be able to range from the minimum hearable sound for human ears to the volume of a jet engine. 20 bits is still more than enough, and if CDs are recorded properly, they can come very close to 16 effective bits and this is good enough that most people couldn't tell the difference between 16 bit or any better data. However, if you have the storage space, why not guarantee that the quantization noise from the bit depth of the data is not the limiting factor?

    This all depends on the listening environment as well. There aren't any speakers that can accurately reproduce 16 bit data. In addition, most people listen to muisic either in their cars, with fans from computers running, ar any number of background noises going on. The fact that MP3s are so popular despite the fact that the have worse quality than CDs shows that a lot of people don't know or don't care about the difference in quality. That said, I consider myself an audiophile and welcome any improvement in the recording quality so long as it is not used as a means for greedy studios to empty my pockets.

    Well, that was quite a rant, but I wanted to clear up a few things that I have seen a lot of people on Slashdot showing some confusion about in this and previous articles. Normally, I don't have enough expertise on the topic to post thoughtfully, so I'll take the chances I get.

    Matt
  • Re:FAQ: What is DVD-Audio by gellor (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:31AM
  • Re:Some info for the non-music-oriented by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:32AM
  • Re:Why DVD Audio? (Sampling Theory revisited) by jyang (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:33AM
  • A couple more things DVD audio could be good for. by ahaning (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:34AM
  • DVD Audio.. Who cares about the encrytion.... by DraKKon (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:35AM
  • Re:I just use my earphones for god's sake by wass (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:35AM
  • Re:What does "rip" mean? Rip is a technical term f by cpt kangarooski (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:40AM
  • Security of DVD Audio on computer systems by Spacecase (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:41AM
  • Re:Hah. by mitheral (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:41AM
  • To someone dedicated enough, anything... by cr0sh (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:42AM
  • Re:Philips condoning Piracy by JabberWokky (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:44AM
  • Re:Hack vs Crack, Extract vs rip by fusiongyro (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:46AM
  • Re:I'd like to clarify a few things by wass (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:46AM
  • Re:Urk by bonehead (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:47AM
  • Re:How does encryption help? by jd (Score:2) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:50AM
  • Copyright protection? by mindstrm (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:51AM
  • Re:How does encryption help? by mindstrm (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:53AM
  • OT - Exactly. by cr0sh (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:53AM
  • Re:Why not hack it? by VAXman (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:55AM
  • Failure? by sheldon (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @11:59AM
  • Re:Quality over quantity by Balerion (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @12:03PM
  • Re:Audio Encryption Jeopardizes Medium's Growth by cr0sh (Score:1) Thursday December 02 1999, @12:06PM