Indie Podcasters vs. Big Radio

skepticality writes "The weekly news and business magazine BusinessWeek has an article coming out in this weeks edition that highlights Skepticality, Coverville, AMP, and other indipendant podcasts and podcast networks. The article explains how a small number of indie podcasts are holding their own against the corporate and big-radio shows in the iTunes top 20 rankings." From the article: "In one of the shortest trajectories yet for a new Internet technology, podcasting has gone from the hands of indie developers to media giants in less than a year. Credit Apple. With typical finesse, it has created a centralized, easy-to-use service on iTunes that makes it a snap to find and listen to podcasts, the audio recordings that can be downloaded from the Net and played on a computer or portable music player. Apple also put out a new version of the iTunes software, which makes it easy for people to create their own podcasts, and invited all to post their creations on the site. Indie podcasters such as Kempenaar and Hallgren rejoiced, ready for the mainstream to embrace the technology they had championed."

Big Radio and Australia

Seems like some "Big Radio" stations in Australia are embracing podcasting; ABC Radio National at least is offering some of its programs as podcasts here [abc.net.au], and it appears to be going very well for RN...

Indipendants

In radio, nobody knows your spelling sucks.

Dont call them podcasts.

Can we please stop calling these things 'podcasts'? They're downloadable mp3s, when did iPods start supporting only mp3? Why not call them rivercasts, or zencasts?

Re:True definition of podcast

How does that post bash homosexuals?

It implies that they are Mac users ;).

Re:Dont call them podcasts.

Same reasons I've seen certain academics say "blogosphere" with a straight face when I know they know as well as I do that there is already a name for the connected totality of HTML documents served over the Internet on HTTP servers -- the "World Wide Web" comes to mind.

It makes some Guardian (from whence the word came, according to Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]) and New York Times readers feel satisfied that they've read some technology and mass media news for the week.

The irony of podcasting

The irony of podcasting is that it was created to circumvent big media companies. The itms top 20 suggests that as much as people love to tell themselves "I hate those clear channel motherfuckers" When it comes down to it, thats all people really want.

Market research

That is why big stations do market research so that they can target their broadcasts and podcasts to the consumer. A successfull podcaster will have to address the same group (compete) or a group which is now not addressed since it is commercially not attractive. To compete is tough, you have to fight big money, so yes, the big ones win again with this.

Re:The irony of podcasting

It simply doesn't matter if 19 of the top 20--or even 99 of the top 100--shows are the product of "big media". The point isn't that podcasting provides an alternative to big media. It's that it provides alternatives, full stop. If your neighbor wants to do a show wherein he spends an hour each week just talking about his dog, Fifi, he can do it, and reach just about anyone in the world who wants to tune in.

Ten years ago, nobody could choose the Fifi Variety Hour. It isn't surprising that big media can garner the name recognition, advertising clout, market research, and (let's face it) talent to keep a large majority of people choosing their product. Podcasting is still a great leveller, because now they have to compete with every no-name garage DJ on the basis of product quality, rather than on the basis of "I have a radio station and you don't."

If some people only want to use podcasting as a convenient way to listen to radio programming, who cares? It doesn't detract from your ability to produce your own show, or my ability to listen to it. As the systems for matching people to interesting content improve (and boy will they ever), big media is either going to have to expand its offerings to cover a wide variety of new niches, or watch their audience reject them in favor of content that more precisely reflects their own interests.

Too much praise...

for iTunes. I'm sorry but the iTunes top 20 is hardly representative of the current health of indie podcasts. The most recent version of iTunes with podcast support has only been around a short while; I've been using it and it is functionally quite satisfying but I certainly wouldn't trust it's charts as a reasonable way to measure any kind of health in the indie movement.

People want originality

This is proof that people are looking for something original apart from the usual tasteless commercial soupe.

great.

Now we are in for a week of Adam Curry simultaneously taking credit for and bemoaning this development.
Still I listen to each new episode....

Am i the only one...

who hates the fucking "podcasting" name?
Its shitty audio streaming, not something one would expect to hear during some voyager technobabble.

Re:Am i the only one...

I'm with you on that one. Though it's syndicated downloading rather than streaming. But yeah, definitely needs to be called something else.

False Logic

From the article: Cinecast movie review show was one of the site's featured offerings. The exposure...sent their show...up the iTunes' list of the top 100 podcasts, peaking at No. 13... Then Roger Ebert showed up...Within a few short days, Ebert & Roeper climbed to No. 2, while Cinecast dropped to 72.

I don't know if a direct connection can be made here. It's more likely that Cinecast got an initial bump from the first downloads and then only a percentage of people decided to keep with it. Same with Ebert. It is likely that it will also drop off after the initial first downloads.

Having said that though, a lot of indie podcasts, even the top ones, suffer from a distinct lack of professionalism. I don't mean just lack of a radio voice or something like that, I mean stuff like loooong intros and spending literally half the show talking about how you can contact the show. There's a real lack of understanding about how to keep people interested. A lot are good though, but to keep up with mainstream media, indicasts are going to have to minimize the boring stuff.

Wow..

Streaming audio, i never heard of this before.. Apple thinks of everything!!!

Has to be said...

Podcasting, like a lot of other deployments of technology (think the Web), was a lot more useful before The Man got a hold of it. Before the new iTunes came along, we had places like iPodder.org and podcastalley to list podcasts, and on those sites it was all about indepedent podcasts. There were a few more "official" ones from radio stations and whatnot, but they just weren't as popular.

Now with iTunes it's back to the same techniques using marketing and flashy graphics for the iTunes banner thingy for a particular podcast, so the same masses that tune into clearchannel will click on these new links. And the worst part is now everyone thinks there "in" because they listen to a podcast.

I think it's sad to see the iTunes top 20 - it's mostly corporate overproduced junk. To me, the whole point of podcasting is to listen to what I want to listen to, not just have another medium for corporate radio junk. Most of the podcasts I listen to aren't even on the iTunes list at all because (oh, the horror) they might play material that is not properly licensed because of copyright issues. It's almost like I feel I have gone "underground" to listen to the *real* podcasts.

Podcasting or something else will do it

Big radio is a dinosaur.

I have a radio in my car and one in my kitchen. Both are tuned to NPR and never go to any other station. The reason is two-part: One, I can't handle the advertisements, annoying personalities, and repetitive play of commercial radio, and two, I like NPR. Either way, I'll probably never listen to any of the mediocre programming elsewhere on my dial. I doubt I'm the only one.

Satellite radio will be part of the change. My guess is that Podcasting will also be huge. It's the radio's version of the Internet with TiVo. Users decide what they want to listen and when, they do it mostly without commercials, and they get to comment directly to programmers of the media.

Why would I want to listen to some schlock programmed by record company execs, peopled with screaming buffoons who can't stop laughing at toilet jokes, and peppered with advertisements for used cars?

Big radio is dead.

professionalism?

"Having said that though, a lot of indie podcasts, even the top ones, suffer from a distinct lack of professionalism. I don't mean just lack of a radio voice or something like that, I mean stuff like loooong intros and spending literally half the show talking about how you can contact the show. There's a real lack of understanding about how to keep people interested. A lot are good though, but to keep up with mainstream media, indicasts are going to have to minimize the boring stuff." now spending half of the show telling how to contact the show does suck, and when the host cant keep the ball rolling, its very anoying, but things like long intros or things that are not done on real radio is where the coolness is. some people do podcasts for the stats of the thing, some people do it because they just want to and do things the way that they want to. my show will never be anywhere near real radio, but on the other hand real radio will mever be anywhere near my show.

A huge Podcaster not yet on iTunes, though.

Right now, perhaps one of the highest-visibility media companies heavily involved in the Podcasting idea is Clear Channel through its Premiere Radio Networks division.

However, Premiere Radio won't put their stuff on iTunes, mostly because the current version of iTunes (Version 4.9) does not support subscription-based (e.g., you have to pay a monthly or yearly fee) Podcasting downloads. As a result, Premiere Radio Networks is forced to use its own customized software package. I expect this situation to change when iTunes does enable subscription-based Podcasting, probably with the next major version of iTunes.

What's the big deal?

I don't see what the huge deal about Podcasting is. People have been putting compressed audio files on the internet for years. Hell, I've been listening to 2600's "Off The Hook" in downloadable format for a LONG time now.

Nonetheless, many of these indie podcasts lack the professionalism of a real radio show. If I want to hear a talk show, I'd like to hear something worth listening to... not a bunch of laughing 14 year old boys huddled around a microphone talking about political things they don't understand. If you want to hear something truly worth listening to, then try tuning into a smaller market radio station. They tend to be less strict in their programming choices than huge-market megacorporation stations.

All in all, I'm not saying that Podcasting is bad. However, I'll laugh when all the podcasters rush out to spend $499 each on RE-20 mics and other equipment... program quality comes before audio quality.

The /. effect seen on the iTunes service

So we have a /. article that highlights Skepticality. Probably the server hosting the article is being hammered as usual. But I also went to the iTunes Music Store and looked at the Top 20 Podcasts list. Sure enough, Skepticality is up to #2 for the day. The /. effect moves to new technology!

The key to "indie podcast" survival

In one word: quality.

Of course there's an element of luck, too, as well as the '49er effect: that is, the ones that get there first stand a better chance of getting rich. But if you get there early and have a good product, you have a chance of attaining the critical mass that attracts not only listeners but collaborators. Slashdot as a tech website is an example. Among blogs, Daily Kos [dailykos.com] would be another. And I would put the Skepticality [skepticality.com] podcast in that category, potentially: it is well produced (decent recording, excellent editing and pacing, smart format), intelligent, has likable hosts, and has started attracting some well-known interviewees like James Randi. It's here to stay, I'd bet.

The distinction between corporate and indie is less important, I think, than the question of how an excellent late-comer can crack the barrier of the existing hierarchy. (The one heartening thing is that firstcomers tend to drop off the top of the pyramid when people realize they're just not that good or interesting, witness Adam Curry's drop in the rankings.)

iTunes rankings

The rankings are based [digg.com] on how many new subscribers the show has received, not total subscribers for a show. That means established shows will probably have a larger listener base but might not be in the top 20.

What's with all this aggression?

OK, so who feels threatened by this format?

Why the need for this denigration?

Unlike broadcasters podcasters have to pay for every listener (yes, there is blog torrent but it does limit the audience)

I live in a town (Canberra, Australia) which is off the map as far as music producers are concerned, yet nothing can get on the air if it hasn't come from the big studios.

So we gather around a condensor mic once a week. We drink some beer, we talk some crap, and we get local musos to come in and play their stuff.

We like how it sounds, quite a lot of audio snobs like how it sounds.

A few hundred people around the world like it enough they send us postcards.

Where's the harm?

We belch, fart, spark up, talk in away that would get a broadcaster thrown off the air and we ask nothing of you at all. So where's all this agro coming from?

To anticipate the next question the feed is here:

http://the-riotact.com/?cat=39 [the-riotact.com]

A summary of the content is here:

http://loadedog.com/pod/pod.shtml [loadedog.com]

(and quietly scope my karma and user number before accusing me of being some kind of shill)

To return to the point, some podcasts will be crap, some (ok a very few) will be good. Much like blogs. But as no-one is forcing you to listen, or blasting it through the local spectrum, what'ss the problem exactly?

It's the reality...

... that I like best about podcasts. The professionalism lauded by other posters is the worst way to go. In this context quality is ONLY about knowledgable and/or enthusiastic presenters (The Rock and Roll Geek Show, Linux Linc Tech Show, LUG Radio) who can share their passion with the listeners. Worrying about what sponsors, bosses, Adam Curry ;) and iTunes think about a podshow will kill it.
I guess I have a different viewpoints for US readers because here in the UK the BBC dominates the radiowaves and their off-peak presenters have the kind of knowledge and enthusiasm I'm talking about (the peak time presenters are pretty plastic though).
Can't mention reality without giving a shout out to the most real of radio presenters - John Peel (RIP).

Blahcasting

As others have stated "podcasting" is nothing but people putting audio files online. What a revolution! Remember how the WWW was going to change the world when everybody with a computer could become their own publishers for pennies and a vast wealth of creativity and quality would reshape the world of publishing etc. blah blah? What happened was there sure was a glut of "publishing" but 99% of it was pure crap.

And so goes podcasting. Just because I can buy a $5 microphone and free-associate into an mp3 file and put it on my web page doesn't mean that I should, or that anyone should care.

If you're looking for good radio, look to your local community radio station. I volunteered at one [wort-fm.org] for most of the '90s and it was an incredible experience. Granted, you will occasionally hear some gawd-awful stuff on community radio - but it's more than mad up for by the amazing radio you'll hear from folks who have some sort of niche specialty - like 500,000 vinyl jazz albums in their record library. Or a passion for reporting news that goes unreported elsewhere. Or a talent for reading their own bizarre fiction at 1 AM.

If you don't have a local community radio station, see if you can find streaming audio of one. Unfortunately the DMCA is especially toxic to community radio station - no more "New disc at nine" (can't play too many songs from one artist in an hour, etc.). So some stations will have to either have dead internet air during certain periods, or not stream at all, or just archive some shows.

Finally I wish the "pod" would go away from podcasting. It's a terrible word. Worse than weblog.

I don't know about all of you guys...

...But I can't wait until my favorite podcast is absorbed by a conglomerate so its format can be changed to "Jack"!

In case you're not frmo the US or Canada, "Jack" is a radio station format that is sweeping the nation. Much like the "All 70's" and "All 80's" stations you heard in the 90's, "Jack" is sweeping across the nation, replacing successfuly formats on some of the largest stations in America (including WCBS/New York, WJMK/Chicago, and KCBS/Los Angeles...

Essentially, the idea is a "format with attitude" but in many of the smaller markets implementing "Jack" means automating air personalities out of a job.

So lets cross our fingers and hope... After all, there's nothing like having something cool, original, and special co-opted by greedy guys in suits!

Podcasting and Audiobooks

Don't know about the rest of you, but I have a lot of dead time in my life -- waiting on my wife, waiting in traffic, waiting at airports and of course flying itself. I used to spend a lot of time assembling CD's and later mp3's to listen to. Lately, however, I listen to podcasts and audiobooks. For audiobooks there's nobody like Audible.Com [audible.com] as their subscriptions are very good value for money. For podcasts, I listen to Keith and the Girl [keithandthegirl.com] if I'm in a belligerant mood, or the Screenwriters Podcast [screenwriterspodcast.com] if I want to lean more about my hobby of screenwriting. The CNN podcast is pretty good, as are several ones put out by PBS and their affiliate stations. Podcasts are particularly good if you have a passionate interest in something narrow like fine wines, a particular religion, etc which the Clear Channel motherfuckers are unlikely to spend much time on. Oh, and i don't give a fuck if it's called podcasting or not, sorry to you moronic trolls who fret about such things.

Podcasting rules

Podcasting is another of the field leveling technologies that the internet allows. Prior to my friend mentioning the concept of a Podcast to me in March, I hadn't heard of them. Now I'm amazed at the selection. Most of it is chaff, but there are some good ones out there.

Bleh

OMG OMG OMG OMG. Streaming fvsking audio! What a major innovation! Yeah, go ahead and mod this a troll... my karma's unshakeable.

What's the problem

It amazes me how much people are complaining about the commercial shows and the itunes rating system.

Surely as long you are given the choice to listen to what you want there isn't a problem. You can choose to listen to an unkown indie show or to a more professional show made by the mainstream media. You can choose to ignore the itunes rating system which (quite usefully in my opinion) lists all of the most popular shows based on recent downloads. There is nothing stopping you from searching through the massive catalogue of shows for some obsure show that you could quite possibly be the only person to have an interest in.

Apple isn't stopping you from using any of the software or sources that exited before they integrated there implementation into itunes and they're not preventing any of the indie sources from posting there podcasts on itunes. They've just created another way of accessing podcasts that in my opinion is the easiest to use and the most polished out there. So get over it.

iTunes: Blessing and Curse

Visit PodcastAlley.com and you'll find a lot of disgruntled podcasters. iTunes4.9 created a caste system for those in the iTunes directory and those who were not. Being in iTunes doubled and tripled subscriber bases. Being left out of the directory meant obscurity. There's a lot of resentment out there.

1) People on /. who don't own or like iPods seem resent the label "podcasts" for audio blogs. Get over it. Suggestions that podcasts be called irivercasts and zencasts are laughable. "pod" rhymes with "broad" and hence "podcast" instead of "broadcast" for a downloadable MP3 radio show. I thought that was obvious. In addition, the guys who put all the elements together owned iPods, namely Adam Curry - the guy who wanted to automate the loading of audio blogs into his iPod. He didn't coin the term "podcast" but he gave it notoriety. Why gripe about this?

2) iTunes may be pushing commercial podcasts in a big way, but it's not all bad. While committees voted and bickered over 1-click subscribing over on ipodder-dev Apple went and implemented the pcast:// namespace. (other podcatchers were using feed://) Click on a feed like pcast://feed.feedburner.com/BitzofBrin [pcast] and instant subscription. Apple also pushed podcasts into the mainstream which benefited all shows. Even shows not included in the iTMS podcast directory saw an increase of subscribers because new ears were using iTunes to tune in. A lot of the complaining has been from M$ zealots, people left out of the iTMS directory, and people who are opposed to all forms of commercialization. Most podcasters are happy about Apple wading into the podcast waters, however, by a large majority.

3) Bugs. iTMS polls feeds too sluggishly. The listings in the iTMS are often behind by a day (though this doesn't affect subscriptions which tend to be very current because they poll the feed directly). Also, there isn't enough feedback for those who submit their podcasts. I know many podcasts in submission limbo. They are told that their podcast has already been submitted, but it's been six weeks that they've waited for inclusion. Meanwhile newer podcasts submit and get listed within one week. Apple gives podcasts in limbo the runaround known as form letter hell. Interface clumsiness abounds in the iTunes podcast implementation as well. Even subscribing requires one to re-enter the podcast directory over and over again for each podcast the user wants to subscribe to.

4) AAC podcasts are so cool with their chapters and chapter art that they very well could replace MP3s as the default podcast format. Many podcasters offer dual MP3/M4A feeds but I know others that have opted for AAC M4As because the chapters appeal to them and the compression vs. quality is better. Interesting developments there.

5) Apple brought bandwidth to the forefront of podcaster's minds overnight with the release of iTunes4.9. Many people simply weren't ready for popularity. Their servers smoked under the strain. This has had the added result of pushing Bit Torrent distribution support from being an interesting geeky add-on to a vital necessity.

6) The commercialization of podcasts is not necessarily a bad thing as long as there are still unique voices. Unlike mainstream radio, there is room for indies to compete with the big boys (read the article). But there needs to be more growth in podcasting as a medium. The podcast I listed earlier is a good example. Bitz of Brin is a podcast by a 13 year old girl. She doesn't talk about sex or tech. She doesn't play electronica or alternative music. She wants to be a singer and features a cover of mainstream pop/country stars each podcast. Her podcast doesn't appeal to geeks interested in tech. Her music doesn't appeal to the thousands of alternative music fans turning to podcasts for their anti-*IA fix. Her main audience, frankly, isn't listening to podcasts. Yet her voice is unique and part of the whole underground podcast movement.

Re:huh?

If you had actually heard 90% of what was on FM these days you wouldnt be saying that... (some exceptions do exist though)

Re:Stop using the term INDIE

You have a better suggestion? Some word or phrase that nicely summarizes the we-don't-need-your-fucking-multi-national-corporat ion attitude?

Tell us. We're dying to know what it is.