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The Internet Businesses Technology

Earthlink Invests In Broadband Over Power Lines 308

Posted by timothy from the keep-your-jacks-straight-please dept.
prostoalex writes "Earthlink dedicated $500,000 to delivering broadband connections over power lines by launching a test drive of the technology with Progress Energy in North Carolina. 500 homes involved in the projects can sign up for promotional pricing of $20/month, which after 3 months will be changed to $50/month. No word on bandwidth provided, but Ambient Corp., which provides technology for the project and accpeted EarthLink investment, claims data rates exceeding 10 Mpbs."
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Earthlink Invests In Broadband Over Power Lines More

Earthlink Invests In Broadband Over Power Lines

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  • Interference problems... (Score:5, Informative)

    by detritus` ( 32392 ) * <awitzke AT wesayso DOT org> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:13PM (#8351319) Homepage Journal
    Once again the interference point has to be brought up, the company uses 5 - 70 Mhz, which dumps inteference out on the following bands:

    Several Amateur Radio bands (1.8, 3.5, 7.0, 10.0, 14.0, 18.068, 21.0, 24.9, 28.0, 50.0 Mhz)
    shortwave radio (7-14 Mhz)
    older cordless devices, such as phones (49 Mhz)
    CB Radio (29Mhz)
    Military communications (several)

    And there's probably more, but i'm too lazy to dig them up...
    • CB Radio (29Mhz)

      Small correction: CB Radio is on 27Mhz (11m)

    • Re:Interference problems... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:19PM (#8351361) Homepage
      the FCC will have to mandate retrofiting the powerlines with some sort of sheilding.

      by the time this gets to most people, it will cost 70 bucks a month I bet.

    • Re:Interference problems... (Score:5, Informative)

      by abcxyz ( 142455 ) * on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:31PM (#8351448) Homepage
      That only implies direct interference, if you were to look at the even/odd harmonics for those frequencies then the "potential" for interference could be greater. I'm a geek and broadband kinda person, and enjoy my DSL. This might turn out to be a wonderful last mile solution, but the concern from a ham radio perspective is that if it does cause wide spread interference then there's the possiblity of impact to the emergency services provided by amateur radio. Just a thought from a "Ham"

      -- w1rww
      • "impact to the emergency services provided by amateur radio."

        Very businesslike, this is a way to look at that:

        Basically, the interference should not be so high that a lot of Hams quit. It doesn't really matter how much interference there is, as long as the Hams still actively pursue their hobby, because when there is a need for those emergency services, the power lines and their interference will likely be down. Otherwise, the internet-over-power would still be working....

        So, for example, if the interfer

    • Re:Interference problems... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by brain1 ( 699194 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:31PM (#8351450)
      At least one thing will come of this. When the equipment begins blacking out HF spectrum, the furor should put this half-baked technology out to pasture once and for all. Imagine overseas flights using 10MHz HF SSB communications not able to get clearance to enter US airspace because their comms are blacked out by this garbage?

      If this gets to the point that it's deployed in my area, I plan to become *extremely* active on the HF Amateur Radio bands with *full* legal power. If it means fighting fire with fire, then by all means I'm prepared. They operate under the part 15 "non interference" rules. I operate under full FCC license to transmit. IOTW, I win. Hmm... when is the next DX contest???

      To quote Part 15: "must not interfere" means that they legally cannot interfere with my operation, and "must accept any interference" means that if I kill an entire neighborhood's internet feed, that's just the breaks. They cant stop my transmissions as long as I am complying with the rules and regs.

      But, being a realist, I suppose that once "big business" gets involved, then all they have to do is throw money, and they have plenty, at lobbyists and get congress to pressure the FCC to toss us hams off the air. Sadly, amateur radio does not have the status it once had.

      Comments?

      de N5DH

      • Re:Interference problems... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by mduell ( 72367 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:44PM (#8351539)
        Before they get to US airspace (12 miles) they'll be able to communicate via VHF (which has a range of 134 miles from 40k feet up).
    • Could that explain the Las Vegas key issue? Maybe the military is gearing up to retaliate....

      eheheheheheh

    • Re:Interference problems... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Sleeper ( 7713 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @06:13PM (#8351709)

      For those who think HAM operators have no foundation behind their objections to BPL please visit this site [arrl.org] and see results of actual studies on interference.

      There is a lot of additional issues surrounding BPL. Such as the fact that power market is regulated and comunications market is not. Utility companies are going to finance their excursion into broadband internet access out of your pocket even if you are not going to use it.

      • "Such as the fact that power market is regulated and comunications market is not."

        Whaddyamean, the communications market is not regulated? What does the FCC do then? And what are those taxes on my phone bills for?

  • ouch (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:13PM (#8351324)
    electrical internet is too dangerous for kids

  • Error in summary (Score:5, Informative)

    by Mieckowski ( 741243 ) <mieckowski@@@berkeley...edu> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:14PM (#8351326)
    The article says that after the first 3 months the price will be $39.95, which is about $40/month rather than $50/month.

  • In the projects? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Larry David ( 738420 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:15PM (#8351330)
    500 homes involved in the projects can sign up for promotional pricing of $20/month, which after 3 months will be changed to $50/month.

    Yo man, here in the projects we can't even afford $10 for groceries, and yo want us to shell out $50 a month on broadband? I don think this is gunna fly, man!

  • Didn't we just hear about how dangerous this is? (Score:5, Funny)

    by paroneayea ( 642895 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:15PM (#8351332) Homepage
    Like how the combination of power lines and ethernet was supposed to grow cancerous tumors out of your eye sockets that develop into tentacles that molest japanese schoolgirls? I'm pretty sure there was just a story about that on slashdot just a bit ago.

  • Bandwidth Capping (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mork29 ( 682855 ) <keith@yelnick.us@army@mil> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:15PM (#8351335) Journal
    claims data rates exceeding 10 Mpbs

    You know that you won't actually get 10Mbps for this, because the ISP's end bill and equipment needs would be to much. That's why all of the DSL/Cable companies have started sending acceptable usage warnings to their customers because they used up all of their unlimited bandwidth (God I love irony) (God I love being an agnostic who says God alot). Any who, as far as I know, this tech was meant more for giving broadband to them crazy country foke who ain't got them thar new digitized lines.... Right? Anyway, what is the range of these lines? How far away can you live from a "hub" or how exactly does that work....
    • actualy, they send the warnings because the cost of supporting 1% of the users who use 70% of the bandwidth is to much and interfears with the other 99% of users.

    • Re:Bandwidth Capping (Score:2, Insightful)

      by BrookHarty ( 9119 )
      DSL doesnt have to cap like cable modems, Its not as much of a shared resource. My friend in Japan is already getting 40Mbps [eaccess.co.jp] DSL. After market saturation, ISP's will offer more speeds and services. Also with 10Mbps you can offer video on demand, another way for small towns to make a profit.

      Bandwidth is the greatest overpriced product besides soda pop and breakfast cereal.

      BTW, I won't use a cable modem for an un-aceptable usage policy. Don't see why people would save 5 bux for a high ping, limited service
    • For the record, i download a lot form earthlink and they have never complained.

  • Mpbs? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:16PM (#8351341)
    Mega promotional bull shit?

  • Won't the internet just go *down* more? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rockenreno ( 573442 ) <(rockenreno) (at) (gmail.com)> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:19PM (#8351359)
    Pun intended. High winds or storms can knock out power lines, causing people to lose power, but if the ethernet connection is hooked up to said poles, we'll lose internet as well. Oh, whoa is me. Then again, I suppose that unless you keep a generator to run your computers in case of a power outage, it wouldn't really matter if the internet is not working while you're power is out. It's the principle that matters though!

  • Tinfoil Hat^WSteel Helmet Time (Score:5, Funny)

    by sirReal.83. ( 671912 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:20PM (#8351364) Homepage
    Maybe I'm paranoid, or maybe I just read an article about certain magnetic fields damaging brain cell DNA. I don't remember though, because I just shaved with an electric razor. Damnit. Seriously, can we just get over this and invest in some Fiber to the Curb (FFTC) or Fiber to the Home (FTTH)?

  • Not as cool as AOL (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:20PM (#8351370)
    They've been advertising some new broadband over automobile solution that looked pretty fast.

  • How long will it last? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cubic6 ( 650758 ) <tom AT losthalo DOT org> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:21PM (#8351375) Homepage
    Like most regular slashdotters, I've seen this come up a few times, and every time it's mentioned that Broadband over Power Lines (BPL) interferes with all kinds of radios and devices, including ham radios and military communications. My question is this: does anybody think that the military will actually let this happen? Especially given our current state of paranoia, I just can't see the FCC overruling the armed forces and saying, "Nah! Change all of your communication gear so we can speed up Billy Bob Hick's internet!"
    • Most of modern military communication devices dynamically change frequencies and use various techniques to prevent jamming - just in case the enemy does so. They are pretty effective at that too.
      But civilian service class radios, like the police, emergency rescue etc all are vulnerable...
      • umm, that has nothing to do with it. this jams ALL frequencies in the band, it just sends out massive amounts of spurious energy. also, basically every police department in the country uses trunked systems. (in case you didn't know, trunked means it hops around on different frequencies, sometimes as often as once a second or quicker.
    • Do you really think the military would depend on a technology that can be disabled so easily? We're switching to TADIL-J (and TADIL-A where necessary), which is supposedly jam-resistant.
      • QRZ reports [qrz.com]:

        FCC CHAIRMAN ASSURES CONGRESSMAN ON BPL STUDIES
        FCC Chairman Michael Powell has assured US Representative Greg Walden, WB7OCE [qrz.com], that the Commission will give "thorough consideration" to all Broadband over Power Line (BPL) studies before it takes final action on BPL. Powell responded February 3 to Walden's January 15 letter requesting that the FCC defer any further action in its BPL proceeding until the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) releases the results of it

    • Neither the FCC nor the Armed Forces make telecommunications policy in the way you infer. Both get their marching orders (pun intended) from Washington, and BPL has a lot of lobbying behind it.

      Please don't assume that the military will be able (or even inclined) to shout "Halt!" before the BPL onslaught: if they have to buy brand new radios to replace the single-channel paradigm they've been using for most non-critical traffic, then that's just another line item in a multi-billion dollar budget. That's wh

  • Completely naive question... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dnaboy ( 569188 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:21PM (#8351376)
    Not knowing much about how broadband really works, can someone explain to me why this wouldn't have the same limitations as DSL? So, with DSL there's a restriction on how far someone can be from a main telco box. Intuitively it would seem that broadband over power lines would hve the same issues, thus making it no more appealing to deliver broadband to the boonies than DSL, which the telcos have balked at due to cost. Thanks
    • Old copper can't always handle newer techs like DSL. I suppose that installing a "repeater" (if that applies to this tech) would be much easier than replacing miles of copper that still performs it's old job. Some phones are even done with metals other than copper which certainly couldn't handle DSL. I personally think that the wireless solutions are a better "bonnie solution". Examples have been on slashdot before but I'm much to lazy to search slashdot and google for all of you people.

  • Whenever I read 10 mbps (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SharpFang ( 651121 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:23PM (#8351388) Homepage Journal
    I add "...to Provider's nearest host".

    In my town great most providers advertise like this. They just install ethernet lines between people's houses. And then say, 500 customers, each on 10 mbit line are all plugged into one 1mbit line connecting with the rest of the world.
    Yeah, transfers like 1KB/s are quite common.
  • I just moved from the very area they are test-marketing this in. Maybe it's not too late to move back...

    /me calls his old boss
  • So when am I going to be able to power my comptuer and get an internet connection with the same cable?

  • Audiophile rant (Score:3, Interesting)

    by billcopc ( 196330 ) <vrillco@yahoo.com> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:34PM (#8351465) Homepage
    I know this is anal, but considering the lack of clear information about IP-over-powerlines, I will pose the following problem.

    I am a sound freak. I replace components in store-bought devices, I spend hours adjusting proper placement of speakers and matching cable lengths to millimeter precision. Now if some big ignorant comms corporation starts pumping multi-mhz modulation on my power lines, that will most likely affect my hi-fi components due to high frequency aliasing componded by cheap cabling and long distances. Wouldn't that be VERY BAD for these multi-thousand-dollar amplifiers that rely on crystal-clean power to do their thing ? Conventional power conditioners are designed for filtering minor surges and dips in power, as well as light induced noise (interference). Now if the company injects 'noise' on purpose, with higher amplitude and reflections accumulated over hundreds of miles.. methinks it will seriously hinder the transient performance of my gear and that of many other, more wealthy and lawsuit-happy people.
    • if you have a multi thousand dollar sound system, i would hope you have a line interactive UPS hooked up to that, not a cheap standard UPS...

    • Re:Audiophile rant (Score:5, Funny)

      by lurker412 ( 706164 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @06:29PM (#8351810)
      Well, I'm sure that the folks who sell cables for $500 a foot will come to the rescue with $15000 power filters. Nothing but the best, right?

    • Re:Audiophile rant (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 )
      I'd love to see how 5+ MHz signals in power lines translates to changes in the audio frequency bands.
    • Wouldn't that be VERY BAD for these multi-thousand-dollar amplifiers that rely on crystal-clean power to do their thing ?

      As though the power is "crystal-clean" to begin with. Most power coming across the lines is very poor. If you're that obsessed with good power, shouldnt you have a fantastic line conditioner anyway?

    • Hot water systems and other off-peak switching devices are already controlled by tones of a few hundred Hz injected over the 'top of' standard 50/60Hz.

      These would be far more audible than the MHz-scale interference, although they only happen briefly.

  • I'm tired of people competing for frequency bands. Where are all the super-antennae that allow you to focus in a signal that's only 0.00001 Hz different than another, different signal next to it?

    Come on, technology! Figure it out! It's the 20-somethingth century for crying out loud. We should be able to have high-speed Internet connections and Morse code wonks. Why do we have to choose?

    sev

  • I don't buy this article at all. (Score:5, Informative)

    by maeltor ( 679257 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:40PM (#8351510)
    I work for IDACOMM [idacomm.com]. We are CURRENTLY doing testing with both Ambient (to the plug) and Amperion (wifi) and let me just say....Ambient doesn't work. The technology is just way to infant. We were lied to by their sales, president, and engineering departments about how far along their "techology trials" in New York were. We currently have about 50 people deployed on Amperion, and it works a lot better. We are working towards "to the plug" techology, but we know that it is going to be for a lot harder than these articles claim.

  • Also they fail to mention... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:42PM (#8351520)
    About how it has already caused 2 machines to become molten bricks of plastic. I know because I had to talk to one of the 2 customers.

    Replacement list:
    1. Wooden desk (burned)
    2. Computer/Monitor (charred)
    3. Everything that was in their office. (toasted)

    The project will be beta for a long time. They just did all this because they wanted to get people talking and maybe buying stocks (which I have too much of). Why am I posting this...because when people from india show up around my cube all of a sudden, I know I am on the endangered outsource to do list.

  • Mpbs? (Score:5, Funny)

    by mr_jim83 ( 753759 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:44PM (#8351534)
    exceeding 10 Mpbs.

    For when you need 10 Million PBS stations.
    • When they say All the do mean All. Hence the need for 10M stations.
      • Sigh... when will people learn the difference between NPR (radio, does "All Things Considered") and PBS (TV, responsible for "Sesame Street")?

        10 million NPR stations, sure (especially with the $200 M donation from Judy Kroc, McDonald's heiress). 10 million Oscars the Grouch I think we might not need.

  • unfortunately Earthlink (Score:4, Insightful)

    by frovingslosh ( 582462 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:46PM (#8351561)
    It's a shame that this is being done with Earthlink, the company that cranks DSL and cable "inlimited users" news feed connection down to next to nothing if you dare use more that 1 gigabyte in a month.

  • Will 220 give me 20Mbps? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by chamilto0516 ( 675640 ) * <conrad.hamilton@ ... Dl.com minus bsd> on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:47PM (#8351565) Homepage Journal
    I think this came from a Scott Adams (he was the telco industry and not yet the famous comic strip writer that we know and love) book, or maybe I heard it from somewhere else but it made sense: The challenge for telco's doing HighSpeed (DSL) was that they had mastered two-way personal communication but only at very low speeds. The phone system was designed for calls averaging only 3 minutes long. The cable companies knew how to deliver media, but only in one direction.

    My power company only delivers 3 things: high bills (like I will want to give them extra money), power and, my favorite, power spikes (I've gone through two coffee pots, 3 baby monitors and a dozen AC adapters for various things). Yes, the equipment is built by someone else but it will be installed and managed by people that are delivering the first and third things above. This does not have warm and fuzzy written all over it.

    We'll for some, a 3rd choice will be welcomed to drive rates down. For other's at least a single choice will be welcomed. More power to them.

  • interference both ways (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    like someone else pointed out, the interference from the radiated signal will play havoc with radios, lets not forget it also goes both ways.. so being a Ham Radio operator I can only imagine that when I get on and key up with a kilowatt of SSB large sections of my neighborhood will suffer some serious packet loss :-), plus I have to wonder what my arc welder will do hehe

  • Security (Score:2, Insightful)

    by brainnolo ( 688900 )
    Mhh how many informations will fly through the city on radio frequences? Isnt too easy to catch them? I mean the amount of credit card numbers flying isnt a problem as long as they are encrypted but there are still plain-text user/pass combinations, and especially e-mails are mostly sent plain-text (how many of you actually uses SSL for mails?) Maybe i didnt get exactly how it works but it looks to me pretty unsafe, i remember when i had one those little "walkie talkie", a very old one and i could catch man
    • Not sure where you're coming from here, because nobody has ever claimed e-mail to be secure at all.

      If you think that this power-line delivered data communications is unsafe, then you must also think that all wireless and cablemodem communications is unsafe as well..

      Don't blame the transport layer for your "plain text" and "non-ssl e-mail" concerns.

  • Hey! (Score:4, Funny)

    by psyconaut ( 228947 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:51PM (#8351594)
    Why does my o'scope show that all my AC power is now 10 million cycles second rather than 60?! ;-)

    -psy
  • ...and I'm sure this will screw up all that X10 stuff I purchased from thos pop-up ads.

    Screw the traffic LED on the router, my lamps-a-blink'n.

  • What they're not telling about BPL (Score:3, Insightful)

    by T_O_M ( 149414 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @05:57PM (#8351626)
    There are several factors that the BPL industry isn't mentioning:
    - Even low-power, in-band transmissions can completely shut down BPL for a mile radius or more. Wonder what happens when I fire up my (FCC licensed) KW on 20 meters for a weekend-long contest?
    - BPL is for overhead transmission lines. Burried lines don't have near the capacity but ARE better on interference.
    - The bandwidth mentioned for BPL is STDM shared in the same way as cable modem service. YMWV
    - Last, BPL operates as an unlicensed part 15 service. All part 15 users are liable to accept ANY and ALL interference from licensed services and must cease use of a part 15 device that causes interference to a licensed service. This passes ALL interference problems off to the end-user.
    Turn it off NOW or go to jail...
    WB1GOT
  • Many (international) BPL interference studies can be found on the ARRL Web site: http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/

  • This is a Bad Thing (tm) (Score:4, Interesting)

    by sheapshearer ( 746106 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @06:14PM (#8351712)
    Great... Now when a thunderstorm makes a tree fall on a powerline, I will loose:
    • Electricity
    • Phone (VOIP)
    • Cable TV
    • Internet.
    How is broadband over powerlines going to be affected by redundant power systems? My understanding is that unless you live in the sticks, there is supposed to be more than one path for electricity to reach your area...

  • Amperion not Ambient (Score:2, Insightful)

    by downbeat ( 163921 )
    I think the original post got it wrong. The Progress/Earthlink test is using Amperion not Ambient.
    http://www.progress-energy.com/aboutus/n ews/articl e.asp?id=8362

  • Lamp-posts as antennae... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DoctorRad ( 608319 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @06:48PM (#8351940)
    I believe this technology was first tried out right here in Manchester. Unfortunately, it was found that lamp-posts [google.co.uk] acted as very nice broadcast antennae. Now you could put RF filters on all their power connections, but how much else are you going to need to filter?

    Matt...

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Better get a good surge protector :)
  • RWE, one of the big utility companies in Germany, introduced powerline internet in 2001. Read the announcement on Wired [wired.com].
    From the article:

    "RWE hopes to have 20,000 subscribers by July and grow that to 100,000 by the end of 2002. Beyond that, the growth potential is enormous."

    Right. The last numbers were 15,000 subscribers early 2004 (compared to more than 2 million people using DSL, which by now is offered with 3Mbps).
    Powerline internet had technical problems from the start on and came too late.

  • BPL too easy to sniff and DoS (Score:4, Informative)

    by Nonillion ( 266505 ) on Saturday February 21, 2004 @08:52PM (#8352752)
    The overwhelming problem with BPL is that not only does is radiate RF hash, but I could take a transmitter that puts out as little as 4 watts and completely disrupt a BPL signal. Other countries have tried BPL but have banned it (japan for one) because of the interference problems it produces on the HF bands.

    But instead of accepting the facts, the power company is going to try it anyway because the people in charge are even more clueless than the most brain dead computer user. How long do you think the power company is going to put up with "My Internet service keeps going away!" complaints from their user base before they do the right thing and run fiber to the households.

    Sure it may be fast and cheap, but it's suseptable to nearby radio transmitters and will be the most unreliable Internet connection out there. With the right radio equipment, packets could be sniffed, you could DoS the entire neighborhood with a CB radio or other low band or amateur HF transceiver. Not to mention all the RF hash that will be delivered to your house on a otherwise clean power line.
  • If you are an amateur radio operatorand an earthlink customer, please consider switching providers to protest Earthlink's action here. Make sure they know why you are switching to a new provider.

  • Earthlink is owned by Scientology.

  • This may not be for real (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Animats ( 122034 ) on Sunday February 22, 2004 @03:55AM (#8354532) Homepage
    Ambient Corporation [ambientcorp.com] seems to be more about hype than products. Their main product is a "coupler" that allows passing RF around transformers. Those have been around for years, although the Ambient one is easier to install than the usual capacitors.

    Their new ideas revolve around ways to transmit data through underground power cables with multiple neutral wires. Big underground power cables are surrounded by multiple neutral wires, which has some shielding effect. The idea is to differentially drive those multiple neutral wires with RF. This is claimed to emit less external RF than driving the high voltage side of the line.

    In cities with underground cable vaults, it's easier to wire fibre or coax. Either provides more bandwidth. Ambient only claims 10Mb/s, and that's per cable segment, not per end user.

    This looks more like a specialized technology being overhyped than a major breakthrough.

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