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Censorship The Media

Harry Potter in German, not Czech 304

The official translation of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix into German is scheduled to hit shelves on November 8. But at the Harry auf deutsch site (here's Google's English), a community has sprung up to perform a distributed translation. Every volunteer works on five pages, with the aid of a Potter-specific dictionary, and after turning in a German version, works on the prose to ensure it reads smoothly. In an unrelated effort, some schoolboys who did a Czech translation and posted it to a private website have been sued by Albatros, the Czech publishing house who will have the official translation out in February. Looks like Harry is crushing more than the Hulk.

Oh, and please don't post spoilers, it's still too early :)

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Harry Potter in German, not Czech

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  • by BluRBD!E ( 627484 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:36AM (#6389580)
    That the story is...er...altered to some degree by that fanbase translation? "Ouch stoßen mich nicht dort! Meine Esel bereits Hurts!" besagtes Harry. "OH- Harry kannte ich Sie immer war ein GANZ spezieller Junge!" geächzter Professor Dumbledore. "Hey geben das Weibchen mir etwas von diesem voldemort liebend!" squeeked Professor Flitwick. ;) Never trust the fans!
    • by BabyDave ( 575083 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:55AM (#6389619)

      Babelfish translation:

      Ouch do not push me there! My donkeys already Hurts!" mentioned Harry. "Oh Harry I could do you was always a WHOLE special boy!" geaechzter professor Dumbledore. "Hey give me the female somewhat from this volume that place loving!" squeeked professor Flitwick
    • by aziraphale ( 96251 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:13AM (#6389866)
      Of course, your somewhat bizarre German aside (the occasional english word in there makes me think you might have used BabelFish to generate this text), you're actually providing the best argument against the (thankfully relatively few) slashdotters on this thread who think that there's nothing wrong with a community-led translation of a book. It is possible for somebody, in translating a book, to add or change material substantially. In distributing their translation of the Harry Potter book, this group would be claiming that their translation was a faithful reproduction of J.K. Rowling's original work - but if they had added or altered material in the process (even to the extent of adding pornographic material, as you so amusingly suggest...), they could be doing Ms Rowling something of a disservice in the eyes of Germans who read that translation.

      This is why copyright protects an author's right over derivative works, including translations - it should be up to the author/publisher to select who is allowed to make the official translation, giving them some means to control what is put out in the author's name in other languages.
      • It is possible for somebody, in translating a book, to add or change material substantially.

        This is precisely the point of what would be wrong in addition to being not very consistent after everey 5th page with a community based translation.

        I read both, English and German. The new HP obviosuly in English and I can say that 1-4 (which I read in German) are very, very accurately translated.

        An accurate translation is certainly not a literal translation of a text, but rather a rewrite of the material in a d

  • by Wacky_Wookie ( 683151 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:38AM (#6389582) Journal
    I mean a Hairy Artist who works in clay sure don't sound like a childrens story to me.

    At least he uses open source web browsers...
  • What Censorship (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:39AM (#6389584)
    Hey idiot, Harry Potter is not your work. How and when they choose to choose to release the translated work should be up the the publisher.
    • that's not flamebait, that's true. it's violation of copyright, plain and simple.
    • Re:What Censorship (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Simulant ( 528590 )
      Yeah, but legalities aside,

      Ms. Rowling is a billionaire now. Does she really need more? Is she even owed more? Does she not owe a little to the millions of fans that have made her so rich?

      Why not let them do knock offs & translations & whatever... How does it really hurt her? Say whatever you like about the law and copyright but once you release something to the public, you have effectively given it away despite whatever the IP laws say you still own. All you really own is the right to make m
  • by msgmonkey ( 599753 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:42AM (#6389591)
    I know this varies greatly between languages but won't the reader notice the 5-page "boundries" where the translator changes.

    Most of the time there is never a 100% "correct" translation from one language to another and relies on the translator to make the judgement. This is not a problem when it's one person doing the translation as they would more likely to be consistent throughout the book, but when you have multple people it's bound to be very tricky.

    • The summary says they're making a 'second pass' over the translated book to improve the consistency and correct flaws in individual 5-page groups. And, the fact that they have a special 'dictionary' containing all the necessary translations will probably improve consistency a lot.
      • by msgmonkey ( 599753 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:04AM (#6389641)
        Yes I read that part, I guess it depends on the language. English being Germanic should n't be too much of a problem I guess.

        The problem I'm thinking of is more subtle in that if you imagine converting the english version into an audio book even a persons voice and their inflections effect the mood.

        So if you have different people just reading out the english, although word-for-word accurate would end up not being much fun to listen too.

        The person doing the second-pass will probably have to do quite a bit of editing. What might be more useful would be of they had more than one translation of that section, the would choose one which "gelled" the most and required the least editing.
      • by guran ( 98325 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:17AM (#6389676)
        Yeah, but even so, the "second pass" would probably take almost as long as a complete translation, if they want a consistent language.

        It is an interesting project though, copyright issues aside. Wonder how good/quick a distributed translation would be?



        Side note: Many professionals already use machine translation for a first step, but then there is the slow and careful process of crafting the book in a new language, adapting it to a local mindset, making it more than just a translation.

        One typical example of the hard work of a translator is, of course, Tolkiens works.

        Should the translator treat middle earth and the shire as *our* earth and england, or as a fantasy world?

        In the first case, you want to keep references to english customs, manners and names. Otherwise you might want to adapt the characters and places to your local culture.

        Now, Harry Potter is explicitly in england, so this is not such a problem, but you still want to check your cultural bearings.

        A description of a typically normal (muggle) meal for example might be considered exotic (or gross) by a muslim, hindu or jew. Which is better: to adapt their menu so that the passage wont steal attention from the story, or keep it?

  • wtf? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:42AM (#6389592)
    People advertise when they break the law now ?

  • What? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JanusFury ( 452699 ) <kevin.gadd@gmaiS ... com minus distro> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:44AM (#6389598) Homepage Journal
    Why is this a suprise? I honestly would expect a publisher to do the same for any other independent translations of titles if they were planning on releasing official translations, whether it be J.K. Rowling, Stephen King, or Hillary Clinton.
  • Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dot.Com.CEO ( 624226 ) * on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:44AM (#6389599)
    Could jamie please explain why this is censorship? What the hell gives you the right to translate a book (for which the local editor has paid a pretty high price) and distributing it without caring for royalties and profit loss for all parties involved? Is anyone by any chance prohibiting these fine Czech and German people from buying the book in English and reading it at their leisure? Or has the state censored the book to remove parts of the it?

    Write your own book, make it freeware and be happy. Harry Potter is not freeware, it is protected by copyright laws and international contracts for localisation / translation. It is, in the least, stupid, to be advocating what is, indeed, piracy.

    • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:01AM (#6389631)
      What the hell gives you the right to translate a book (for which the local editor has paid a pretty high price) and distributing it without caring for royalties and profit loss for all parties involved?

      You are right. But should it be wrong for someone who has brought a copy of the book but wants to read it in their native language to have access to that? Note that the book isn't coming out in other languages for months yet. I am sure the hardcore fans that download the translated version will also buy it once it is released.

      Is anyone by any chance prohibiting these fine Czech and German people from buying the book in English and reading it at their leisure?

      Oh, let me guess! English is your first (only?) language, isn't it? Not everyone speaks English. Even if they do, it is often much easier to read a book translated into your first language than it is to read one in your second. For most people reading is a time to relax and forget - it's easier to do that when you dominate the language you are reading.
      • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Dot.Com.CEO ( 624226 ) * on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:46AM (#6389778)
        I happen to speak 4 languages, and no, English is not my mother tongue. Working in a company that makes money translating, marketing and distributing foreign books gives me an insight into the mess that these people are creating. And, have no doubt, the local publishing houses WILL, at the request of the copyright holder go to every length imaginable to get the people responsible for this mess or they will lose the right to publishing the books. Can't read English properly? Wait a few months for the translation!
    • The czech translation has been made by some impatient pubescents. They even didn't know that a translation was covered by a copyright law. But, as always, unawareness is not a justification.

      BTW there have been some voices that such a delay before the translation hits the market increases a possibility of such an accident. The copyright owner hadn't given the permission (and the actual text) to begin the translation at the time the book was printed (although it is a routine to do so).
      • I wonder where exactly they draw the line for the copyright. Is it okay to call it an "unofficial translation". Writing a parody based on the original book is legal in most countries, could this not be a similar variant of the original?
        • Parody and satire are given more wide ranging rights than other works, if I recall. That's why if you, say, want to make a joke about addictive cola, you would be allowed to use a logo very similar to the Coke logo. But if you want to sell your own, new, cola, you can't because you would be accused of trying to cause confusion to the buyer.

          This is trademark stuff, but copyright has similar rules.

        • > wonder where exactly they draw the line for the copyright. Is it okay to call it an "unofficial translation". Writing a parody based on the original book is legal in most countries

          Parody is a defence that you may or may not be allowed to offer depending on your local laws. This doesn't enjoy even that tenuous protection, and these people will get rightly bitchslapped under Berne convention article 8 [cornell.edu].

    • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by ojQj ( 657924 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:11AM (#6389662)
      Actually I'd be very interested to know what the legal status of translations in copyright law is. My understanding is that copyright law pretty much covers exact copies of the information and not derivative works.

      But translations require a certain level of creativity in order to localize the concepts and words into the culture in question. Different translators might make different choices in how to translate a particular phrase or concept thus resulting in a variety of qualities of translation.

      A translation is definitely not an exact copy, and might have some merit independently from what it is translating. The question is, is it enough to call it a derivative work? I suspect not, but as IANAL, I don't know.

      If it is though, then prohibiting the dissemination of an independent work is by definition censorship.

      • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2, Informative)

        by MP3Chuck ( 652277 )
        My understanding is that copyright law pretty much covers exact copies of the information and not derivative works.

        Copyright law does indeed cover derivative works. But I'm not sure what exactly constitutes a "derivative work," especially when it comes to something like a translation. IANAL, though I think it's safe to assume that a direct translation of a given book would be considered a derivative work, since all the creation/ideas/etc... are there, just in a different language.
      • You need a special permission (which you have to pay, of course) by the original owner to make a translation. Once you have finished it you own copyrights to that translation. Anyone else can ask the original author for permission for translation again but he cannot just use the old translation as a skeleton since it is covered by a new copyright (owned by the original translator).

        This is not exact (money sharing is mostly the most tricky part) but shows the concept.
      • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Munelight ( 192694 )
        That's an interesting question.

        One of the opinions often put forward on Slashdot is that if you 'own' a song in any format (record, cd, what have you), then you have a license to use that song on any media you desire (mp3, ogg vorbis, heaven-forbid... real audio). This stems from the argument that what you're purchasing is a license to use the intellectual property. The physical object (the disk or media) is actually incidental.

        So, what is language? Is the language part of the abstract that forms t
        • I don't think anyone REALLY cares about individual user's. It's true that some people would probably want you to buy an mp3 version, a cd version, another mp3 version,of a song etc etc...but at the bottom line is the fact that individual use is not what scares content owners. What scares content owners is Napster, Kazaa, DC, etc. That's why Apple was able to come out with their iMusic system which DOES allow for copying (with limits)

      • Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Surak ( 18578 ) * <surak.mailblocks@com> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:35AM (#6389741) Homepage Journal
        A translation is a derivative work under U.S. Copyright law and International treaties such as the Berne Convention.

        The only way you can translate a work legally if you pay the original author for permission. You own the copyright on the translation (unless otherwise agreed to in the contract for the translation), but generally most contracts stipulate that you still have to pay the original author royalties on copies of the translation you sell, since the author still has copyright on the original, and the only thing that gave you the right to do the translation was to sign the contract.

        Make sense?
        • A translation is a derivative work under U.S. Copyright law and International treaties such as the Berne Convention.

          US Copyright law is irrelevent here. What matters are the laws in Germany and the Czech Republic.
        • You own the copyright on the translation (unless otherwise agreed to in the contract for the translation),

          This has some interesting effects when you're dealing with older works. If a piece of literature is originally in a foreign language but old enough to be copyright-free, the translations may recent enough to be copyrighted. So, for example, the original works of Goethe are free to distribute, but any translations done within the last few decades are not. (Although, in his case, several translations a
        • so if you were to do a translation of a popular online comic strip [tripod.com], with the author's blessing, who then linked to the translated strips from his main page, do you then 'own' the translated comic, images and all, or only the text?
      • A translation is absolutely a derivative work, covered under US copyright law and that of most other countries. The author has the right to control derivative works, both to protect the integrity of the work (e.g., by avoiding unauthorized, low-quality translations that would reflect poorly on her), and to gain the economic benefit of translating her work to make it available in new markets.

        Although I strongly believe that the copyright law today has tilted far too heavily in favor of content owners, as a
      • >I'd be very interested to know what the legal status of translations in copyright law is

        The Berne convention is crystal clear on this: Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works. [cornell.edu]

        Yes, you read that right. If you want to make a translation for your own use, that's technically infringement and you have to argue it

      • WTF, why is this moderated interesting.

        Derivate works are protected by copyright law, just like exact copies are. Duh!

        You can't even write your own book regarding harry potter as main person, as this would be derivate work!!
    • Because it's not really copyright violation, it's , erm, fair use. Or art. Or civil protest. Or entirely justified as the evil publishers make too much money. Or maybe it is copyright violation but (except where the GPL is concerned) copyrights are bad, m'kay?

      At least, those are the kinds of Slashdot responses you'd be getting if it were a piece of music. Isn't hypocrisy great?
  • Harry auf Deutsch (Score:5, Interesting)

    by peatbakke ( 52079 ) <peat@ p e a t . org> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:51AM (#6389614) Homepage
    ... as an interesting side note, I believe the english Harry Potter books were the first english books to ever hit #1 on the German best seller lists before the German edition arrived.
  • by Prince_Ali ( 614163 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:52AM (#6389616) Journal
    You mean the publishing company that Rowling gave the right to translate and publish her work is suing someone who is releasing that is translating and publishing her work? How could they do that! Copyrights are evil! blah blah blah! [/slashbot impression]
  • by Jarlsberg ( 643324 ) *
    You reaally have to be a fan to do something like this. I don't think this will hurt the eventual release of the official translation, given that the project could never release the unofficial translation on the market. It would immediately be pulled back, and no, this is not a censorship issue but an issue of who owns the copyright.

    I can't see JK Rowling endorsing the project, at least not officially, but this speaks volumes of how committed the fans are to her stories, and if I were her, I'd be proud.

  • by MisterMook ( 634297 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @06:59AM (#6389627) Homepage
    I wonder how many fans will be excited about being sued? Even if J.K. has a full right to do so, suing your fanbase isn't the smartest or most polite thing to do. In fact, since they're obviously intelligent and industrious fans (they're translating for God's sake, how many times have you done that for a book you despised?)they're probably the last people you're going to get good press out of. Suing "schoolboys" is like the RIAA suing college students, do it enough and you piss everyone away in disgust.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:08AM (#6389650)
      suing your fanbase isn't the smartest or most polite thing to do

      Neither is stealing from your favorite author.
    • The fanbase is not one monolithic thing, so please stop acting like it is.

      If they sue the a few translators, they "save" perhaps thousands of others who would not have bought the book legally.

      Duh.

    • I wonder how many fans will be excited about being sued? Even if J.K. has a full right to do so, suing your fanbase isn't the smartest or most polite thing to do.

      So what do you propose they do? Stand back and let people piss all over your copyright because they're just fans?

      Just because they are doesn't mean they're immune to general laws.

      If they're that much of a fan, they'll buy it when the official translation comes out ... along with the mug, hat, special edition fluffy toy ... etc. etc.

      • If they're that much of a fan, they'll buy it when the official translation comes out ... along with the mug, hat, special edition fluffy toy ... etc. etc.

        I'm sure they will, but the simple fact of the matter is that JK Rowling and crew have to sell a product - they're not putting out anything that people need to live and they're obviously not hurting for cash if they're doing such huge print runs and making movies, they could have afforded to overlook something like this. Just because they're riding the h

    • I wonder how many fans will be excited about being sued? Even if J.K. has a full right to do so, suing your fanbase isn't the smartest or most polite thing to do. In fact, since they're obviously intelligent and industrious fans (they're translating for God's sake, how many times have you done that for a book you despised?)they're probably the last people you're going to get good press out of.

      They are not being sued by the author, they are being sued by the publishing company who intend publishing their t
  • Respect for Laws (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Moridineas ( 213502 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:01AM (#6389630) Journal
    Thanks for witty reference to The Hulk jamie. What I want to know is how can ANYONE think that the publisher asserting their rights in this situation is a bad thing?

    The very foundation of much of the opensource movement, the GPL license is about respect for law. These people distributing the Harry Potter work are not respecting the law. We can't have opensource without these very same laws.
    • >What I want to know is how can ANYONE think that the publisher asserting their rights in this situation is a bad thing?

      Um, because copyright laws are intended to protect creators, not publishers. If you meant author, then I agree absolutely, but please get the distinction clear. Publishers do (or should) license rights to publish from creators, they shouldn't control them. The "work for hire" fiasco is partly responsible for getting the music industry into its present abominable state, where you c

  • by mumblestheclown ( 569987 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:03AM (#6389635)
    Slashdot has always endorsed tolerance, if not tacit support for intellectual property law violators. For the dozens if not hundreds of articles with little editorial innuendos such as "I guess we'll just all have to move to freenet" to the repeated duplicity of imporing "blame the users, not the technology" and then raising hell when infringing users are gone after, slashdot (editors, and then the lap-dogs of the forums) have shown an ethic that should be denounced. With this article--this blatant advertisement for illegal activity (or activity with clear illegal intent - if you disagree, you fool nobody)--slashdot shows its extremism.

    pre-rebuttal: the case of the network wide 'search engine' and the college students was hardly the only such one that /. has complained about, and that one was quickly withdrawn after it proved to be untenable. additionally, that they sued for a enormous amount of money has no bearing on what they might have actually won.

  • Chinese is, after english the most spoken language, with 1.2 billion in mainland China alone. Chinese is also used in Hong Kong, Taiwan ROC, and countless international chinese worldwide!!

    Rowling could sure make a couple of billion more if she releases a chinese edition.

    Now, I'm just thinking how witches, wizards and Harry Potter magic would fit with the chinese culture. But well, if the rest of the world is reading it, then the Chinese would follow!

    After all, who would watch Titanic many times without u
    • by mikeophile ( 647318 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:13AM (#6389665)
      Oh God, I wish I could have made it through watching Titanic without understanding the dialogue.
    • erm. they wanted it so bad they wrote their own instead [bbc.co.uk]...

      Heck, there was a slashdot story about this earlier...

      It would be greatly amusing if the government got the idea of writing a harry potter book or two for "inspiring young kids toward great things." (i mean, JR Rowling has no power of copyright in china if the government don't give a shit about it) - like "Harry Potter discovers communism" or "Harry Potter vs. capitalistic pigs" or "Harry Potter and the red dragon Mao" something.

      well, besides thos

    • Unfortunately, China's blatant disregard for intellectual property law means that fewer and fewer companies are willing to enter that potential huge market. the 'couple of billion more' for rowing or the publishers you posit will likely never materialize in china even though they WILL (or have) published there. rather, the vast bulk of chinese profits will go to organized criminals.

      While disregard for IPR is widespread in much of the world, china is a particularly notorious case. This is not because of

    • Unsurprisingly, JK Rowling and her publishers are way, way ahead of you on this.

      The People's Publishing House have been selling Chinese translations of the Harry Potter books since 2000. News story here [bbc.co.uk]. The Chinese translation of The Order of the Phoenix will be out in October - 29-year-old Ma Aixin is doing the translation, as the old translators were making the language too elegant and stiff. [china.org.cn]

    • A correction--Chinese is the language spoken from BIRTH by the most people, but it is definitely not the world's most spoken language--that would be English.

      Not to mention the different Chinese "dialects" (though the very usage of the word dialect is wrong because they aren't dialects but entirely differnet languages that use the same writing system) and the non-Mandarin/Cantonese languages in China, Uyghur, Mongolian, Korean, Tibetan, etc etc etc. So 1.2 billion is an overestimation.

      Your point is well t
      • by jeremyp ( 130771 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:57AM (#6389818) Homepage Journal

        Chinese is the language spoken from BIRTH by the most people

        Wow! When my nephew was born, he couldn't speak any languages at all. He's already two, and he's only just getting the hang of English. How come Chinese babies are all so brainy?

      • Not to mention the different Chinese "dialects" (though the very usage of the word dialect is wrong because they aren't dialects but entirely differnet languages that use the same writing system)

        There are two writing systems, traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese. Simplified Chinese is used in mainland China, traditional is used in Hong Kong and the New Territories. Basically, the symbol has a meaning, although that symbol is pronounced very differently in different regions. Most Mandarin Chinese can

        • Right--what I was getting at is that I believe (I don't speak any Chinese language, so I can't vouch for this firsthand) is that Mandarin and say Cantonese are completely different languages, yet their writing system is mutually intelligible. Like how 1,2,3 means the same thing in French, German, English, etc. (or at least it USED to be this way--the Communist govt did simplify the script so that most PRC people today can only read simplified (at least the younger generations)
  • by mr.henry ( 618818 ) * on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:04AM (#6389637) Journal
    I hope this doesn't come off as too 'Jon Katzy,' but the internet has made irrelevant this common practice of premiering something in one country and delaying it's release (often for marketing purposes) in other countries. For example, 28 Days Later [imdb.com] was released in the UK on Nov 1, 2002, but they waited until June 27, 2003 before the US release. The DVD-R of this title has literally been floating around the internet for months. Who wants to wait?

    The Harry Potter publishers were naive to think this wouldn't happen.

    • by WIAKywbfatw ( 307557 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:26AM (#6389709) Journal
      First of all, let me just say that I've never seen the fascination with HArry Potter. I've read more than my fair share of fantasy novels, some when I was a kid, some in my twenties, but I've never rated the Harry Potter novels to be even in the same league as, say, either the Chronicles of Narnia, the Middle Earth novels, the Dune series or even the Shannara books. Don't ask me why, I just can't seem to find the magic (pun intended) that others do in JK Rowling's creations.

      Having said that, I'm not blind to how big a phenomenon Harry Potter has become. JK Rowling herself has said that she's surprised that the plot of this latest book wasn't leaked before its launch, even though the story was a closely guarded secret. Less than a dozen people had read the book before it went into production and the printing lines and distribution centres were closely guarded too to stop any copies of the book getting out before the official launch.

      How many copies and how big an exercise are we talking about?

      Well, the new book, Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix, sold 1.7 million copies in Britain alone in its first week. The next best-selling hardback novel that week sold 6,500 copies. That isn't a small margin, it's a gulf.

      Multiply that several times to come up with the number that were actually printed - 6.8 million for the original print run and 1.7 million for the second according to several sources. That's a lot of books. In fact, it's the biggest print run in history.

      Now, if you had simultaneous launches in several languages then you'd have to have translations sorted beforehand (and worry even more about plot leakages), and have an even bigger print run to cope with all those foreign language versions.

      Three words for you: never gonna happen.
    • by pyrros ( 324803 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:25AM (#6389924)
      >The Harry Potter publishers were naive to think this wouldn't happen.

      It's not the same thing. As far as I know, Harry Potter came out on the same day worldwide. It's just that the translated versions won't be out for a while, which is quite reasonable since translating 700+ pages is not something you can do over a weekend.

      They could sit on the english version and wait until the translations were ready, but this creates another problem: waiting for _everyone_ to finish is going to take a ridiculously (sp?) long time (so everyone has to wait), and if you don't wait for everyone you're more or less back to square one: people in smaller markets have to wait for the translation and will not be happy about it. Also, where do you draw the line between popular and not-so-popular languages?

      Also, for Harry Potter in particular there were going to be A LOT of people who would not be happy to learn that the (already late) book will take another 5 months to print while it's being translated. And, as another poster has observed, the odds of a story leak would skyrocket.

      Traslating a book is not the same as a movie or localising a game. With a movie, there is a LOT less content to work on and the standrards are way lower so it only takes about a week, if that. Either waiting for a week to release the movie, or releasing it a week late in other countries is no big deal. Besides, since most movies have a lot of special effects, you could probably do the special effects and the translation at the same time. Theb problem lies mostly in distribution and marketing.

      Video games are even easier since any game that's worth the effort of translating will go through weeks of betas and QA before it goes gold. Having said that, most companies are happy to spend 6 months making a PAL conversion even with no tranlating involved, so I must be missing something ;-)
    • I hope this doesn't come off as too 'Jon Katzy,' but the internet has made irrelevant this common practice of premiering something in one country and delaying it's release (often for marketing purposes) in other countries.

      Yet this is still done with movies.

      For example, 28 Days Later was released in the UK on Nov 1, 2002, but they waited until June 27, 2003 before the US release.

      The only unusual thing here is the US not getting to see it first. Whereas "The Hulk" does not open in the UK until the 18th
  • I am surprised they let this happen

    The thing is, exactly the same thing happened last time, when Book four was published.

    At the time, (August 2000 BTW), some German fans started a distributed translation effort, as reported at the time in the Register [theregister.co.uk]

    I would have thought, that the publishers would have learnt their lesson, and made sure that translations into the other languages where Harry Potter has a large fan base would be released on the same day as the english version, or failing that, not more than a month later.

    Considering the huge volume of pre-orders that there where for book 5 in english, I think it was unreasonable to expect German fans to wait 3 months for the official translation, or Czech fans to wait 8.

    Obviously some fans can read the book in english, but considering that the book is aimed at children, many will not, Instead they will ask their parents to read the book and give them the plot highlights. Is it not surprising that some of those adults are organising themselves to translate the book.

    I am not condoning the what is happening, it is still a copyright violation, but it was entirely predictable, and IMHO, the publishers only have themselves to blame.

    • I would have thought, that the publishers would have learnt their lesson, and made sure that translations into the other languages where Harry Potter has a large fan base would be released on the same day as the english version, or failing that, not more than a month later.

      Doing a top quality translation of a 700+ page novel takes more than a month. Even to a language relatively close to English such as German (and while I can't speak German, I did take several German classes in high school... they're suf
  • A private website? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by John Harrison ( 223649 ) <johnharrisonNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:15AM (#6389669) Homepage Journal
    What is a private website? One with now external links to it? An intranet? While the auther seems to be implying that since it was "private" nobody should care, wasn't it on the "public" internet?
  • by Ben Jackson ( 30284 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:16AM (#6389673) Homepage
    I don't speak navy-blue text on grainy, dark background image.
  • by ThreeDayMonk ( 673466 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:16AM (#6389675) Homepage

    Nature abhors a vacuum...and apparently, so do geeks.

    Although copyright law will definitely come down on the publishers' side, I assume that these translators aren't doing all this hard work in order to thumb their nose at the rights holders. If there was already a definitive German/Czech/Crotobaltoslavonian translation available, then this activity would be unnecessary. However, as far as the official translators go, well, if they can't keep up with amateurs working for free, then they probably ought to be trying harder or reevaluating their processes. If you leave a vacuum, expect someone else to fill it.

  • by archbish99 ( 609930 ) <mbishop@evequefou.be> on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:32AM (#6389728)
    I'm told we'll have the French edition in a couple months -- supposedly, the translator can translate a maximum of 10 pages per day. So if everyone is putting in a total of a half-day's work, they'll certainly manage to finish a lot faster.

    They might be missing something, though -- in French, at least, they don't do a straight translation. Rowling makes so many word-plays that a word-for-word translation wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable. The French translator is allowed the liberty of rearranging the games to work out properly in French. My absolute favorite is the Sorting Hat, translated to Le Choixpeau (sounds like "the hat," but words mean "choose-skin."). Also, Tom Riddle became Tom Elvis Jedusor, where Jedusor looks like "game of chance" or "game of spells" and the full name rearranges to Je Suis Voldemort. The houses of Poudlard become Gryffondor, Serpentard, Serdaigle, et Poufsouffle. In the collective translation, I'm sure we'll see some creative input on the word-plays -- but can they be consistent? I somewhat doubt it.

    One thing the translators may be seeking to avoid is the over-(ab)use of this translator's power. A friend who had read the English version first threw her copy of Coupe de Feu across the room after one chapter toward the end. The translator had "corrected" something that Mme. Rowling wrote and reportedly has said in interviews that she wrote it intentionally. One surmises the twist may play a role in future books, though it hasn't thus far in Order of the Phoenix.

  • Fair use??? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by lyonsden ( 543685 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:35AM (#6389739) Homepage
    Would it be considered legal to download a translation if they had already purchased the english version?

    We use that reasoning all the time when we 'translate' from our CD's to MP3 or OGG?
    • No, copyright law still precludes this. A publisher has bought the rights to sell the translation, and you're taking their market away.
  • by LittleGuy ( 267282 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @07:53AM (#6389808)
    I'll wait until they translate it into the original Klingon [kli.org].
  • by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:26AM (#6389932) Homepage

    BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS (Paris Text 1971) [cornell.edu]
    Article 8
    Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works.

    You want to argue fair use protection? Fine, it's arguably fair use to make a translation of parts of the work for your own or strictly limited academic use. Making a full translation of the whole work with the explicit intent to distribute it, while the rights owner is trying to sell her own version, is blatant violation. Mealy mouthed lawyerese that each individual translator is protected by fair use is dissembling of the most pedantic kind. The intent to violate is clear.

    Discuss.

  • by Reinhard ( 142396 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @08:37AM (#6389990)
    If I remember correctly, the main difference is that the german translation is only available to the translators and not available to everybody. The same thing was done with HP 4.
  • from when I was judging ThinkQuest 2001 [thinkquest.org]. They were really, really bright. Needless to say they won a platinum award. Their contest entry is here [thinkquest.org].
  • by aziraphale ( 96251 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @09:46AM (#6390661)
    In Harry Potter, you've got such a range of made-up terms, words which are invented by the author, some of which need to be given translations, that you can't expect individual translators working on five-page sections to be able to maintain any kind of consistency.

    For example, in Order of the Phoenix, Rowling invents a plant with a latin-sounding name, Mimbulus mimbletonia. What should this be rendered as in German? In English, it has resonance with words like 'mumble', uses the common English surname/town suffix '-ton', and it even refers back to to the Rime of the Ancient Mariner's use of the word 'mimble'. Different translators will approach the task of selecting a German equivalent differently. Some will leave it as is, others will try to select a different latin name that conjures similar imagery in a German mind.

    Then you have Rowling's love of writing vocal tics, speech impediments, and dialect (hagrid's speech, for example), which basically requires her to have the character's voice in her head as she transcribes how he speaks. A hundred different German translators can't be expected to have the same 'hagrid's voice' in their mind as they imagine him speaking German, so you'll effectively find his accent changing from page to page as different translators render his speech.

    I really can't see this effort producing a half-decent translation job.
  • by dougiegyro ( 87799 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @09:57AM (#6390778) Homepage
    The Czech publisher Albatros posted the following comment on its website (http://www.albatros.cz/article.php?sid=528) and I've taken the liberty to translate it, and hope I won't get dinged as well: > Before you run amok and start cursing Albatros please read this! First of all: It would have been enough if the translators informed us of their intent, and we would have come to an agreement similar to that reached between Harry Potter's German publishers and its "unofficial translators." They were smarter and more fair, and went directly to the publisher first. In our opinion, Harry Potter can, in our opinion, exist in unofficial translations on the web, but of course Albatros is bound by a contract with Mrs. Rowling and cannot support such activities - even if it wanted to. We must act according to the law and report the theft of copyright that occurred. These (web) pages (with the translation) were not redirected by Albatros, but out of incomprehensible revenge on the authors of the illegal translation. We are sorry that they did not have the courage to contact us, and we continue to refuse to pursue the case. If readers would rather look forward to the illegal translation instead of the book, we will respect their decision. Further complaints can be addressed directly to Mrs. Rowling. This entire misunderstanding occurred thanks to her. Albatros
  • by Dr. Kinbote ( 171352 ) on Tuesday July 08, 2003 @12:35PM (#6392630)
    Harry steckte seinen Zauberstab rasch in seine Hose zurück und versuchte möglichst unschuldig dreinzublicken.

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