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Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part II
Posted by
michael
on Fri May 10, 2002 01:46 PM
from the return-of-the-linux-jedi dept.
from the return-of-the-linux-jedi dept.
sharkey writes "Simple End User Linux (SEUL) has an article about their visit to the ACPE 2002 conference. Microsoft's visit to the conference is outlined, as well as the school districts' attitude towards GPL software and migration issues. An interesting follow-up to an earlier Slashdot article."
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Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part II
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Re:shooting self in foot (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't someone going to quote Princess Leia? ("The more you tighten your grip..." )
I must be at the wrong website.
Re:shooting self in foot - Is anyone suprised? (Score:5, Interesting)
In the business world this is of course, achieved through providing quality products at a fair price acompanied by good customer service.
In a con game, this is achieved through convincing your mark that you are acting in his best interest, and if that deesn't work you can always try threats and extortion.
Microsoft seems to have made a business decision that it is more cost effective to derive funds through threats and extortion rather than by providing a quality product. Before you dismiss this as being an overbroad accusation, consider the following.
In the early 1990s Steve Balmer was quoted as saying that "Software Piracy is a critical part of Microsoft's Business", the reasoning being that if those who couldn't afford Microsoft products, pirated them and their use of the software increased their efficiency in business and otherwise, they would become more profitable both personally and in business and be able to afford to pay for upgrades to the software, so Microsoft would proffit through a somewhat obscure customer aquisition technique.
In the Mid 1990s the BSA began to take major steps to try and curb software piracy through various threats and lobying for new anti-piracy legislation.
Then, in the late 1990s and now, Microsoft has become dissatisfied with collecting from those who illegally use their software. Now they are seeking out organizations who use their software legally, and have always acted in good faith, singling them out, causing them expense and time which they can not afford, above and beyond that which they have already budgeted to legally purchase the software in question.
Is it really a suprise that these faithful customers are now objecting and seeking other alternatives? No. I think not.
Re:What's wrong with education? (Score:4, Insightful)
That phrase should be read "No one is worried about the kids [they'll adapt quickly]."
Re:What's wrong with education? (Score:4, Interesting)
Can schools make the switch to Linux? Yup, Doing it now. No need for MS Proxy or Border manager when E-Smith [e-smith.org](the commercial site [e-smith.com]) offers a great solution.
Open Office / Star Office is the best thing that has come down the pipe for schools. If a student can learn to use these less expensive/just as robust software packages productively, then they can switch to using what ever MS office product that they may need to use on the job once they get out in the "Real World." What is wrong with education? I don't think computer illiterate teachers are the problem, but it fixing that certainly doesn't hurt.
From the article. (Score:4, Funny)
I prefer to take a more hands-on approach and use "root", rather than a third-party administration product of dubious reliability, scalability, and quality.
Old MS business strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
It is pretty good to see that this is changing. Microsoft tried to do this but now there is an alternative out there and that alternative is pretty strong and robust. It is good to see that even thou MS is a large company it cant do business like it did years ago because it is not the ONLY out there.
Way to go!!!
Well, duh (Score:5, Funny)
M$ believes: How can this be -- our marketing research said that that everybody loves being audited!
Re:MS execs are out of touch (Score:4, Insightful)
As the article noted: The good cops didn't show up until the feces hit the circular air accelerator. Thankfully, I think that it's too late for them. Once a few school boards manage sucessful migrations and report back to the others on their results, I think that you're going to see a bulk migration away from MS so-called "solutions" in NorthWest schools.
The tables are turned. (Score:3, Interesting)
The Usual MS MO (Score:3, Insightful)
At that point we're supposed to believe MS is a big cozy teddy bear and really wants to help. They've done this more times than I can remember. It's time to walk away from them and not look back...
Two things that strike me (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Committed volunteers. As the article points out, the LUG was a big help. One of the cool things about the open source community is the freedom and diversity of work. But a pitfall is that it is not organized around a single goal like a corporation. If the Linux community said (i.e., leaders said), we are committed to getting all public schools onto free software and keeping them going, make that your priority, what amazing things could be accomplished? Instead many people would rather work on their own, probably less important projects. I love working on my own stuff just for the fun of it, but there comes a time to put down your own agenda and dig ditches for a greater goal.
Educational software. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Educational software. (Score:4, Informative)
There are three open-source gradebook programs listed on Freshmeat, one of which is my own [lightandmatter.com]. I'd be interested in talking more about gradebooks off-list...
One good thing about what's happening in the article is that they may get entire districts buying in to Linux. It's much harder for an individual teacher to do on a classroom-by-classroom basis. The computer folks at my school have neither the time nor the skills to help me integrate Linux boxes into their network.
Another positive is that lots of schools are using Macs, and will soon be using MacOS X. That gets Unix's foot in the door.
Yes, that's the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly the problem that schools face. They are looking at options, but except for an initiative at red hat, there is not a strong, coordinated effort from the linux community. Schools are over burdened and cannot afford somebody who is really good to come in and do the right thing. The schools don't need a flock of geeks, they need consistent, reliable support.
The problem is (Score:5, Insightful)
Desktop Linux isn't quite ready. It's getting close. That's why Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW. And it isn't really a decision now. Maybe even in a few months. But, of course, Microsoft is forcing them to decide NOW and commit to years.
So they have to choose between Office and Star Office NOW, (and that means 5.2, but even 6 isn't QUITE right.) Or gobeProductive, which is really great on Windows, but isn't QUITE ready on Linux yet, and there isn't enough time to do a proper evaluation anyway. So they have no choice, really, except to commit to Office.
So it's just another monopolistic extortion scam from the company with $40 billion cash in the bank. You'd think that the corporations that are the victims of this licensing scam would recognize what they have unleashed by putting Bush into ofice. Or you'd think that the municipalities with the school districts would be talking to their members of Congress. Education was suyppose dto be the big Republican thing, right? But the first thing Bush did was free up Microsoft do go after --- other corporations and school districts! Is this really the kind of country they wanted when they coughed up all that cash to put Bush in office?
A teacher's point of view (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a related article [theregister.co.uk] over at The Register which exposes yet another nefarious plan by M$ to fleece the public: They are proposing licenses on a per computer or per FTE basis, without regard to whether computer or person runs, installs, or is in any way associated with M$.
I think it would be interesting if those who are sickened by these business tactics were to request from their school districts those EULAs and agreements which govern the use of software in the district. As a taxpayer, you're entitled to this information: If they won't give it up willingly, then surely it can be acquired via an FOIA request (in the states). I know our district has used passage of a $36 million bond issue to outfit our 50,000-student district with more M$ products...exactly what is not needed.
I plan on requesting our district's EULAs through official channels first, then through FOIA channels as a taxpayer. The reason why this situation exists in the first place is the failure of the taxpayers to monitor how their money is being spent.
Re:And, an attempt to buy their way out... (Score:4, Funny)
M$ acted like any business would... (Score:4, Insightful)
Never underestimate the power of bad customer support or angry customers!
Geeks love Linux -- not necessarily news but... (Score:4, Interesting)
That's mighty impressive. There's a lot of awfully good people in the Linux world. With a sense of community and pride like they have, who knows what they'll have accomplished in a few years time.
It makes me think. How can Mercenary programmers working for corporations possibly compete with those doing it for the love of the game?
I'm not a 100% Microsoft hater, but it's hard to see them vanquishing a determined, diversified foe like this (who doesn't have to make a profit to continue fighting.) I'm betting my future skill training on Linux. They're absolute berserkers on the OS battlefield!
Hand me that stack of O'Reilly books.
----
If you are really interested in helping out (Score:4, Informative)
The overlooked option (Score:4, Insightful)
I realize that many in the slashdot crowd see any solution other than free/oss ones as inherently evil...and that companies with these solutions are engaged in nothing short of extortion and theft...but c'mon. Isn't one of the best options for these schools to simply buy more Macintoshes? Of course it is!
My Local School District (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly enough, it turned out that the guy in charge of the whole implementation, was one of my best friends. A truly brilliant guy, he has always been firmly entrenched in the world of Novell and Microsoft. When I told him, that they really should be looking at Linux for the file, print, and web services he immediately began to recite so much recycled FUD I thought I was talking to Bill Gates himself. Myself and another friend of mine spent hours debating Linux and other open-source solutions, and in the end he conceded some points, but was still largely unmoved.
Well, to make a long story short, he called me last night to tell me that the bill for the School work was getting a little too high for their budget, and they were shopping around for vendors with some Linux experience. His boss, who's even more Pro-MS, told him that they can't lose this contract and that someone needs to "ramp-up" on Linux fast.
We install Linux on his box tomorrow! When it comes to the education market, cost is king.
Re:My Local School District (Score:4, Insightful)
if you keep talking in their terms and stroking their egos you will get very far and win completely.
Open office introduction... "It's not as nice as Office XP yet, but it costs nothing to own, has zero liability, and can do most of your work, want to give it a try?" if you throw in the fact that they can legally give copies to students, faculty, and even to parents, stranges, and bums on the street AND they can never be charged,or audited for it.... it starts looking a whole lot better than anything microsoft can make.
good luck! and good hunting!
Existing Software (Score:3, Interesting)
The performance of WINE is going to be a major lever in moving schools to Linux. If it can be shown that they can use most or all of their existing, paid-for (proprietary) software like Reader Rabbit, Carmen Sandiego, etc. then the migration will be that much easier.
Yes, GNU software is better. However, trying to get them to jump 100% from what they ahve to GNU is going to have one major speedbump -- and it will be made from the pile of existing software that they paid for and still works.
Step #1 is removing Windows, MS Works and MS Office and replacing them with Linux and OpenOffice (or KDE Office, or Gnome Office, or
Another step would be a good, reliable list of Windows Educational software and how it works on WINE. (Heck, most of it is still Win 3.1 compliant!)
Educational Software? (Score:3, Interesting)
On the school office side, what do you use to replace SASI/Pentamation/WINSchool/etc.? for student management, grades, attendance, etc.? What do you use in the libraries to replace Follett?
These are all questions that need to be answered before many school systems would even consider switching. Until there is a good answer for all of them, it isn't feasible to switch away from Microsoft and/or Apple.
Jason
It's happening here, too (Score:5, Interesting)
1) The greatly improved security and performance of the machines when Win2K server was wiped from them in favor of Linux, and
2) The action up in Portland, and Microsoft's generally jackbooted-thug-like behavior toward schools right in the middle of a major budget crisis
We will be headed more and more toward OSS in general and Linux in particular. And our district is by far not the only one. I hear from the other local districts and guess what? They are doing the same thing.
M$ has shot itself in the foot. It is possible that they can get some educators drunk at a conference and buy a little forgiveness, but how many people do you think were there in the context of how many people are dealing with Microsoft audits now? Not too many. And when Microsoft alienates the education market, they don't just piss off some administrators: if and when those administrators migrate some or all of their services and equipment to OSS, the effect inevitably trickles down to the students being educated in that district. The last thing Microsoft wants is for high school students in the process of making college choices to see the superiority of OSS to their own crufty product, and make decisions based in part on that information. But that is just what is happening. So the events going on right now will have ramifications well into the future. Count on it.
Then it is true!!! (Score:3, Funny)
Linux is not just like "Free Beer", it gets you "Free Beer"!
Hi, I will volunteer (Score:5, Informative)
I will gladly volunteer my time to this project. Not Just weekends. Not just a couple of hours here and there. I'm a unix system administrator with about 5 years of solid linux experience. I have experience in educational systems (I learn and admined linux at a university).
Please contact us. Our mailing list can be found at www.3clug.org.
I might suggest you see if there are volunteers from the OSDL (Open Source Development Lab) right there in Portland.
I would also suggest a good leader for this. This is going to be a lot of "heads" arguing back and forth, and having a "this is the way it's gonna be guy" is gonna work best.
You will have the people to do it. Just ask. We will save your school district money. We will make it work. You will not feel forced into a companies bottom line ever again.
--Doug Nordwall
Microsoft is very smart. (Score:4, Insightful)
Diffusing the group is their primary objective. Once this is done, they can continue to manupulate the ones in charge into bad contracts.
PR 101 in action here, I am surprised that these two did not see it coming.
Linux is PERFECT for schools (Score:3, Insightful)
I remember back when I was in school we had big problems with comptuers. Seems both the macs and the PCs were single user systems, and so students would regularlly, and intentionally change something on the local disk. (the stupid ones just deleted something critical, the "smarter" ones changed something subtile that you didn't even notice for a while. Remember, these are teens going through the worst years of their life from an honesty standpoint.
Linux by contrast was designed from the ground up to be a multi-user system. Give someone a login, and they get access to their files, and only their files. They can run programs, but only the ones allowed by the administrator. (it is fairly easy to mount home noexec, and move programing students to a different disk)
I graduated in 93, so win3.1 was the latest windows, and the macs were m68k. things have advanced some (windows 95 is a little better for multi-user, but it still sucks compared to linux when you cannot trust the users)
Remember, these are students, not employees. They are immature, and untrustworthy. (I wasn't, and I was one of the more honest students)
AAA-like organization for Linux? (Score:3, Insightful)
We need a BSA ChillingEffects.org equivalent (Score:5, Interesting)
It is an extremely one sided system- as they unethically designed it to be (1). As many have pointed out, the system is set up to make you feel you cannot possibly fight it, given the unacceptable risk if you lose.(2) However, if you can find other cases where people have fought, and you see how they did it, you might have hope.
People need to know how bad it is for schools. Example: Slashdot on Microsoft / BSA vs the LA School District, [slashdot.org](3) where "hundreds" of unlicensed copies were found. the threat was $150,000 fine for each copy of a $100 per license product. ($100 at best. 1/3 was MSDOS, and schools get very good rates). They "negotiate" down to a $300,000 total fine, and the school district probably felt very grateful for this kindness of the BSA.
This is a 150,000% fine negotiated down to a 1,000% fine. (or 1,500x down to 10x). How does the BSA get to levy fines so out of proportion to actual damages? Yes, illegal copies are a crime (as is speeding), but the LAUSD wasn't running a mass piracy operation. Assuming that "hundreds" = 500 copies found, then the LAUSD had found roughly 1 copy per school, or 1 copy per 120 employees. The BSA got to treat the LAUSD as if it had found widespread felonious behavior rather than a few years worth of a few people deliberately or mistakenly making copies. No proof of bad intentions needed.
Extraordinary fines should require extraordinary proof, but instead the BSA has you do all the work, and even if you are entirely innocent you can still get hit. Unless a mistake can cause extraordinary harm, you don't usually get to treat mistakes like a felony! What makes the BSA so special? They get to threaten fines in line with fines for damage to life and health. Is software piracy that much worse than discharging toxic substances into waterways (max fine $125,000)? Misbranding a drug in interstate commerce (max fine $100,000)? Violating the Sherman Antitrust Act (the fine listed in Section 3571 (d) is "not more than the greater of twice the gross gain or twice the gross loss" caused by the conduct...)?
The LAUSD is not a happy ending story- but this current story might be. A collection of all cases like it would be useful for anyone just receiving a dreadful BSA / Microsoft letter. The site should be part of a high-Google-rank site, so that it is easy to find (for non-technical folks). The database should also have easy to find links to all user groups, by geographical areas, so that anyone can quickly get advice / quotes / support.
(1) Because a good ethical system (think Categorical Imperative [erau.edu]) includes consistency in applying rules. The BSA would never accept their rules applied to themselves: imagine a Software Consulting Association sending audit letters out checking for late payments to consultants. If you've paid a consultant more than 30 days late, you get fined 150,000% of the daily rate.
(2) You'll fight a traffic ticket because you can afford to lose. What if the original ticket was $100,000, with a "negotiated" fine of $1,000? This is extortion, not a negotiation- you'll accept whatever the court says. Not to mention if *you* had to show that you didn't speed, even a little bit, and lack of evidence = proof of guilt. And it took a minimum of 5 days in court and they get to dismantle your car and replace equipment to test its maximum speed! That is what these audits are: time consuming and they can place programs on your system.
(3) Also see Inside the BSA (2/02) [slashdot.org]
Too many computers in schools (Score:3, Insightful)
I can understand giving the teachers computers for tracking grades, lesson planning and such, but I think it is not appropriate to use it as an educational tool for young children.
One should learn to do basic skills -- reading, writing, arithmetic, social skills, arts -- without the use of computers. You will get a much deeper understanding this way; you will be able to solve problems much quicker.
I think it is ridiculous that grade schoolers are being made to write reports using computers. Perhaps using the internet for research is OK, but with a computer the student doesn't learn spelling, grammar, or penmanship because the comptuer does it all for him. Use the computer as a reasearch tool, but write the final report by hand. You can't learn to write by typing.
Once you learn these basic skills, then (and only then) should you use the computer. Granted, when I was that age, computers weren't widely available, but we weren't allowed to use calculators until algebra, and typing was prohibited until you were an upperclassman. If the teacher couldn't read your handwriting, well, that was YOUR problem and you got an F.
A computer is a tool, but we're teaching our kids to use them for crutches because we're too lazy to teach them how to do things for themselves.
Re:Too many computers in schools (Score:4, Insightful)
Many excellent points. In elementary school, however, computers are not widely used for things like writing reports (at least not in the dozen or so classrooms I've seen). Instead, they are used to run educational games and programs focused on certain skills or lessons. High-tech worksheets, letter and number exercises.
The best use for computers in elementary school I've seen was for long-distance communication/collaboration. My stepmom's 5th grade class hooked up via email/message boards to collaborate on various projects; the usage was on the order of a music or art class: pretty much once a week, with structured objectives. And my stepmom's computer literacy? Somewhere around my ability to read/write sanskrit (i.e. nil).
Where I see computers can play a role in elementary school is in promoting diversity and in exposing underprivileged schoolchildren to computers. Thus: The little rich kids who play with computers at home all the time (like most of us here were) collaborate with a poor rural or inner-city classroom on a research project using the internet. The poor kids at the other school who don't even have books or pencilss at home would get the benefit of exposure to computers, hopefully reducing the technology gap between the haves and the have-nots. The rich kids would get a taste of diversity, hopefully encouraged to interact with their sister classroom's kids individually and as a group.
Does this alone justify "computers" in elementary classrooms? Probably not. But if all schools are wired, I don't see why a single linux server couldn't have several dozen thin clients in the classrooms to achieve these types of applications.
Re:Too many computers in schools (Score:4, Insightful)
And that's the point, isn't it? Speaking as someone who spent three years at a school for students with learning disabilities, because I had/have subtle motor problems that makes writing for me especially difficult, I would be the first to welcome the death of "penmanship" as a graded skill.
For years, people assumed I was unwilling, or unable, to do my work. I failed classes that required any amount of writing, and in 4th grade, that's pretty damn hard. After three years of intensive occupational therapy, and self-paced learning, I managed to not only finish high school, but get accepted to, and earn a degree from, a first-tier college. In an average week, I rarely scrawl anything more than a phone number or two, and that's usually in Graffiti, at that.
I agree that computers aren't necessarily an effective educational tool, especially in a classroom setting. However, many of the skills you mentioned simply aren't as relevant to one's education as they were when they incorporated into the elementary school curriculum. It's important for us to rethink even the fundamental elements of the educational process.
And while we're at it, let's start by rethinking the assumption that assumes that the purpose of education (according to the Federal Gov't) is for us to be efficient economic producers. I'd rather use my education for MY own improvement, not the GDP's.
Math teachers kept Microsoft in our school systems (Score:3, Interesting)
Unfortunately, they quickly gravitated to Visual Basic. The reason one stated to me is that it was an easy language for him to pick up, and it allowed the students to see quick results.
Now, the majority of the local school systems are solidly entrenched in Visual Basic as the primary tool that's used in all the high school computer science classes.
I recently ran into one of my old teachers, and I brought up the subject of Linux and open source software. He had no interest in even discussing it. He says there are plenty of VB sites on the Net with source code provided, and that Linux will never be be an option in the school system because he can't run VB on it. End of discussion. He even started to get a little hot-tempered with me when I tried to tell him about Kylix and some Borland products that were available for Linux.
These teachers all have the ear of the school board. And they seem to speak with a united voice in favor of Microsoft, regardless of price.
Re:This should help Apple (Score:3, Insightful)