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A New Low for Web Advertisers: Pop-Up Downloads
Posted by
timothy
on Mon Apr 08, 2002 09:31 AM
from the measuring-new-lows-jinxes-us-all dept.
from the measuring-new-lows-jinxes-us-all dept.
rizzmanix writes: "I thougt it was strange that I had been getting a lot of pop-up download prompts for the Gator software as I browsed around the web in the recent days. Why were all these sites requiring this Gator thing I wondered?
Well I wonder no more... as apparently advertisers hit a new low by running 'pop-up downloads' instead of pop-up ads. Sneaky, underhanded, nasty and vile."
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A New Low for Web Advertisers: Pop-Up Downloads
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a followup link (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And for those still on dialup (Score:5, Insightful)
For you and others like you, it specifically states that a pop-up box appears and requires the user to accept the download, and they rely on the fact that 99.999999% of the non-slashdot population immediately assumes it is something they need and click "Yes".
Re:And for those still on dialup (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing that "society" tries to do is protect the average joe from the consequences of ignorance. Why do that, you ask? Why not let Darwin take his course? Because as our wealth grows and our world becomes more complex, everyone is ignorant about some areas of life. And today, everyone is ignorant about most things that keep us alive (dug your own well lately?).
So let's be careful here - just because Slashdotters know better than to click on that Yes doesn't mean everyone does or should.
sPh
Re:And for those still on dialup (Score:5, Interesting)
I've seen sites (cardcentral.net) that use JavaScript to put their own dialog over everything but the Yes/No buttons on the download box. The dialog box appeared to be something along the lines of "Security warning: You are infected with a virus. Clean?"
Pop up download (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a major security issue, and clearly by default the only warning in MSIE is a dialog box, which you may already have set to just accept downloads automatically.
Yet another reason to use non-standard browsers and non Windows OS, so that you even if you end up with an executable it won't execute.
Wow, this is lame (Score:5, Insightful)
What programs do this? I've never, ever seen a webbrowser that automatically installs stuff. At least not until you specifically specify for that site only (like MS Updates, or Station.Sony.com)
"But those horror stories are the exception. More typically, software makers are simply using the downloads to distribute legitimate products."
Legitimate products don't automatically download onto my computer without my concent.
Re:Wow, this is lame (Score:5, Informative)
IE will happily install stuff without prompting if that's the way the security is set up; eg, if you set the "Internet Zone" (or whatever) to "Low" security, it will automatically download any signed ActiveX control.
why mozilla rules here (Score:5, Informative)
I've not seen a popup in months and months. It's fantastic.
Re:why mozilla rules here (Score:5, Informative)
Re:why mozilla rules here (Score:5, Insightful)
What a load of horse pucky.
I understand that websites have to generate revenue, and that the current method is moving more toward pop-up/under ads. That's fine. That doesn't mean I have to subject myself to it. As an informed consumer I have the right to ignore the ads in whatever way I deem fit, whether that means closing the windows as they come up or telling my computer to not allow them to render in the first place.
Should a browser default to stopping pop-ups? Hell no. It breaks too many sites that use pop-ups for additional help/information windows, sites that load links in a new window, etc. But I should certainly have the option to kill pop-ups if I want to enable it (and preferably with a quick key to reenable them - like Popup Stopper [panicware.com] has).
Want to argue otherwise? Go for it. You also watch every commercial on TV, right? No getting up to go to the bathroom/kitchen. No recording it to VCR or PVR and fast forwarding/skipping through the commercials. Because if you are then, by your own definition, you are immoral. Maybe even commiting a crime!
Oh, and do you read every ad in a magazine? Do you throw out those blown-in/tear-out cards in magazines before someone else can read them? Do you read every billboard that passes by while in a car? EVERY TIME?
I don't think so.
And yes, I know this was a troll. Congrats. But this kind of thinking might actually get some people that nod and drool "yes", and it's so abundantly stupid it needs to be shut down before hand.
Re:why mozilla rules here (Score:4, Informative)
It's been more usable than 4.x for months. Recent releases are very stable. Startup time is about on par with Opera here (~3s when cached, next to ~2s for Opera).
4.x lacks usable CSS (and this is very important for modern sites.. the only reason most sites still work is because most sites still use techniques from 1995; I don't), and has laughable table layout code (it was made with basic HTML-for-tabular-data in mind, not triple nested layout tables); these alone make it pretty much useless to me.
If I didn't use Opera, I'd probably use Mozilla; at least I can trust it to Do The Right Thing (usually) when I'm developing sites; then I can go add my IE5/6/NS workarounds afterwards.
> Does it do any nasty or weird stuff on some sites?
IE6 does nasty and weird stuff on W3.org/Style (fixed positioning isn't supported, but it still processes the position: fixed; directive, meaning you can't do "position: absolute;position: fixed;" like you're supposed to. Argh.).
IE5 does nasty and weird stuff on every site that uses the CSS box model; it gets the sizes wrong on all boxes, meaning you need to exploit parser bugs to provide IE5 with tweaked sizes for it to work properly (and then provide Opera 5, which suffers the same parser bug, with real values).
NS4 does nasty and weird stuff when you specify an element should float: anywhere; it makes it completely unusable to use CSS layouts on it without spending months debugging an absolutely positioned workaround-nightmare.
Not seen Mozilla (or Opera) do anything this broken
PR0N (Score:5, Funny)
-Russ
Ooh, wait. What I meant was my FRIENDS have seen stuff like this and told me about it. Wait, I don't have friends that look at pr0n either... umm. I read about this sort of thing, yeah. That's it...
Re:PR0N (Score:4, Funny)
well, we've bene using IRC forever, but it is still a good source.
Yet another (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of these advertising techniques either rely on browsers (or users) who don't or can't disable popups easily. (read: 90% of the internet explorer population.) Or they rely on Internet Explorer specific techniques, e.g. windowless flash animations (transparent backgrounds) for shoshkeles, etc.
I think it's time the antivirus companies step up to the plate for the average consumer, and add blocking/filtering to the AV clients. Maybe it's overkill, but if you could tag these popup downloads as a potential virus (or at least unauthorized use of your computer) the world would be a better place. Or, create some add-ons to mozilla which filter popups against a database (ala the defunct spamcop) popupcop?
When something is sold as "advertising" but is nothing less than an attempt to trick or confuse a person into purchasing, downloading or installing your software, that's misrepresentation and/or fraud. Regardless of any 2pt fine-print at the bottom, or "user agreement" on the page. Hard to stop them, though.
Sounds like Nimda :) (Score:4, Interesting)
Underhanded Purest Evil (Score:3, Insightful)
I was completely shocked when the gator icon mysteriously appeared and greeted me. I removed the little bastard immediately. However, I let a long sigh as I realized it would come back shortly.
So last night I decided to go with mozilla and live with whatever problems it may bring.
The mozilla team should thank the gator software company and evil commie bastard marketing reps around the world.
Really nasty variety (Score:3, Interesting)
Many sites try to coerce users (especially kids) into installing
"high-speed" or "priority" internet dialers that in reality just change the default internet
connection to an extremely expensive number. By the time you
get the phone bill, it's often in the four-figures. The telco
doesn't want to be responsible since they just rent out the
numbers, and the companies that rent them are also mostly resellers with
with the final "customers" mostly being based outside Germany.
Question about Gator specifically (Score:3, Interesting)
So my question is: Is there anyone who actually WANTS the software? Or are ALL copies there because someone accidentally downloaded it and doesn't know how to remove it.
Re:Question about Gator specifically (Score:4, Informative)
As Gator has evolved it's become more and more malicious; popping up ads when I'm browsing is the most annoying, but also it's started placing its own ads over banner ads on web pages - that doesn't annoy me any more than the banner ads would but I think it's a pretty evil practice and I don't want to support it.
The only reason I've kept using Gator is that I have a large investment in terms of the passwords I have stored in it, but there are other, better ways to take care of that problem. At this point I run Gator with it completely blocked by firewall software, so it can't update itself and it can't download ads or offers. If you delete everything in C:\PROGRAM FILES\COMMON FILES\GMT\BANNERS you'll get rid of the ads it's already downloaded.
Re:Question about Gator specifically (Score:5, Informative)
Grab RoboForm [roboform.com] instead. It's freeware and it doesn't have any ads nor does it contain spyware. It'll even let you import all your Gator passwords. There's absolutely no reason to keep using Gator.
Coming soon on Slashdot: (Score:5, Funny)
Do you wish to install this file? YES / NO
If yes, please do the following:
- Download file and save to
- cd
- tar xvzf slashpopup.tar.gz
- cd slashpopup
-
- make
- su
- make install
....Finished!
Consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
This clutter has created a haven for pop-up downloads because consumers find it hard to determine the ad's origin.
Gator isn't the only software maker using this tactic to add consumers.
"Consumers want control of their PCs," Gator President Jeff McFadden said in a statement.
Why am I a consumer just because I am accessing the Internet? The problem here is not the pop-up technology, but the unwritten assumption (perpetuated by the author of the report) that we are all just mindless "consumers of product" that need to be targeted by ads.
Only when this mindset is abandoned will we see an end to attention grabbing and demographic gathering.
You Are a Minority (Score:5, Interesting)
I think we'll only be able to escape the constant bombardment of advertisments (And skript kiddie attacks and all the other comparatively recent crap) by establishing our own network on top of the internet. It's easy to do and we're technically capable of doing it.
thiefware.com on Gator Auto-install/ActiveX (Score:4, Informative)
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org) [sethf.com]
Mozilla (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Popup warning dialog (Score:5, Informative)
Add them to the Restricted Sites zone. That will (by default) keep them from running any code, including signed and unsigned ActiveX, and even cookies.
"Smaller number of available applications" (Score:5, Insightful)
And PPC Linux binaries are probably out of the question...
How to Guard Yourself and Then Strike Back... (Score:5, Interesting)
And honestly, people, if you set yourself to automatically accept downloads, you're just asking for a trojan.
Now that you know the defense, let's talk about the offense. Some very respectable Hackers have already created programs designed to kill browser popups. Might I suggest as a new challenge for these ingenius few that a program be created that you can simply set an auto-cancel after a program asks you once to download it (like Gator)?
For those of us without that level of programming ability, I recommend giving these companies that do this a flood of email complaints, expressing just how much we detest the all-time low they have reached. Since so many of us are in the IT or helpdesk field, we're in a unique position in that people believe what we say. If Gator persists in these forced-downloads, then start letting every single one of your customers know that Gator stands a chance of royally screwing up their operating system and compromising their security. If they ask for specifics, look for any bug whatsoever that has been reported, or that you can find in the program, and exploit it like a cheap tabloid. If it crashed one persons system and made them reboot, then it -always- crashes systems... etc.
Of course, I myself would never result to any illegal means, but legal strongarm tactics are very effective when done in mass-quantity. If enough of us get together on this, and enough sand is thrown by enough people, advertisers will eventually get the hint.
Now who's with me?
-The Libra
"Maybe Lisa's right about America being the land of opportunity, and maybe Adil's got a point about the machinery of capitalism being oiled with the blood of the workers." - Homer Simpson
Divx 5 Maybe??? (Score:3, Informative)
Pay Per Download (Score:5, Interesting)
Hey, that's an interesting idea- use their own evil tactics against them. According to the article, Gator also has affiliate relationships with many sites, which it pays $1 every time a visitor downloads its software. There's no way they're making a dollar off of each user any time soon. So we automate the process, giving them a hundred thousand affiliate downloads a day, increase their burn rate, and poof, they go out of business. Screw you, gator.
Just saw this yesterday on Dad's puter (Score:4, Informative)
His dial-up connection was slow, he said. Indeed, every site I visited in his favorites was really slow and now wonder... everysite seemed to launch a couple of pop-unders that were consuming bandwidth downloading ads.
"Yeah, I've been getting that ever since I installed 'gator'"
"gator is something I got from yahoo that helps me fill in forms or something"
That rat-bastard gator had put hooks everywere, was a real pain to uninstall ("please stop the gator program before proceeding" - except to the ordinary user the concept of stopping a taskbar icon isn't very obvious).
The uninstaller launched a browser and loaded a page telling you why you shouldn't uninstall. Geez, go away already!
Yeah, my dad is pretty clueless - I reminded him not to download and install stuff unless he is pretty clear on what he is getting.
This software seems to exploit that cluelessness, posing as some innocuous, helpful utility when it's real purpose is far more invasive and it is relatively complicated to get rid of.
Been happening for years now. . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of japanese h-anime sites (the less artistic ones, yes there is artistic hentai, get over it and deal.) use a dial up program of some sorts that I am (assuming) dials some sort of toll number, but it only works if you have a dial up modem, negates the need for a credit card though.
Some of the seedier US web sites I have seen actualy attempt to automaticaly do this to you (ouch) luckily enough I have a cable modem and I uninstalled my regular ol' modem quite a while ago. ^_^
My Japanese Tutor actualy had a related problem, (didn't look at porn, damn thing managed to spread anyways, VERY annoying). One of these toll programs (one of the less respectable variety) got on the computer and refused to go away, hooked on to everything.
Nasty stuff.
Legitimate site designers don't use ... (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't too restrictive. Big players, like Amazon, Yahoo Store, and the major search sites, all work under these restrictions. If your site doesn't, your site is broken.
Re:Legitimate site designers don't use ... (Score:4, Insightful)
There's no need for a bank's web site to require Javascript, pop-up windows, and ActiveX just so I can view my account balance. And I sure don't need all that crap to buy a CD. Tie your site to your ordering system on the server side, and send my browser plain, standard-compliant HTML. If you want to use javascript for form validation, fine, but make sure your site still works if I have it turned off (ie, validate again on the server). If you really want to display something in a pop-up, use <a href="whatever.html" target="_new">.
A Wonderful Tool for Spyware (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.lavasoftusa.com
Have people forgotten Comet Cursor already? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Terms of Agreement (Score:3, Interesting)
I would think that it's COMPLETELY illegal to do this. If the program that's getting installed were to wipe your hard drive, there'd be lawsuits galore and FBI people kicking down the doors of the company hosting the hostile download. Why exactly nobody's been able to convince a judge that this is the same thing is beyond me.
I got royally flamed in a mailing list for complaining about a site that tried to force gator on me. The admin's response was "it didn't try to install gator, it asked you first." My argument was "it only asked me because it tried, and my browser said 'no.'" Naturally, we got nowhere.
It's even worse if they find a way to install without prompting the user. Not only is that a wide-open door for serious viruses, but it ABSOLUTELY removes any semblance of authorization (and I'd argue that a user blindly clicking "yes" to simply make the damned download panel go away doesn't constitute informed consent, either).