Site Review: 2002 Olympics

Andy King writes: "If Olympic Web sites were an event, Salt Lake wouldn't even take the bronze. Our review reveals some gnarly accessibility moguls." There's another review of the site which mentions the many accessibility problems that the Sydney Olympics had with its website. The site doesn't appear to work at all with konqueror.

Biggest "accessibility mogul"

The biggest accessibility mogul in my mind, though it really doesn't have to do with the usability of the site per se, is the restrictive conditions put on independent Web media reporting on the games. I believe the IOC did not give credentials to most Web media and have been very active in shutting down and censoring both pro-athlete fan sites and anti-IOC sites. (In fact, wasn't there an athlete who was enjoined from posting even an Olympic diary, Weblog style, for fear of IOC reprisals? Someone refresh me on the details if this rings a bell.)

Anyway, expect the only thing on the Web related to Olympic results of stories is the officially santioned site and NBC and the big media outlets who paid out their butts to cover the games. Everyone else is shut out. That's my accessibility mogul. (Gah--can we fire whoever came up with that expression?)

Re:Biggest "accessibility mogul"

Mod Parent Up.

I was going to say something about this, but was beaten to the punch. As I understandd it, olympic athletes are verbotten by the IOC from keeping any kind of public journal of their experiences at the Olympics.

I wrote a rant mentioning this after the 2000 olympics in Sydney... http://www.furinkan.net/rant/olympics.html [furinkan.net]

Re:Biggest "accessibility mogul"

Does this mean that IMC reporters are barred? They gave the best coverage of many modern events

The forces of oppression were out in full force today as the global power elite, represented by an "impartial" panel of judges, handed the medal in figure skating to corporate-owned Michelle Kwan, in the process brutally oppressing Lithuanian Margarita Drobiazko.

Following the requisite praise from the lackeys of the corporate media, Kwan proceeded to the locker room area where she presumably licked the boots of her corporate masters. Kwan is rumored to be owned by General Mills, and will soon become a shill for their product "Wheaties"; as we have reported before, each Wheaties flake is handmade in a factory in Bangladesh by three year old children who work 22 hours per day with no breaks, are paid $.05 per month, and most of whom starve on the way home from the factory each night.

This is not Ms. Drobiazko's first experience with oppression at the hands of multinational corporations, as she was formerly employed at a quaint coffee house in Vilnius which was crushed last year under the oppressive heel of Starbucks.

Re:Biggest "accessibility mogul"

I *wanted* Toronto to get the 2008 Olympics: It would have given me a really good excuse to leave town for good! :)

I'd like to think they would have gotten it too if it weren't for Mel Lastman screwing it all up, but it's pretty clear that Beijing was going to be the winner well before the selection process began. What emperor Samaranch wants, Samaranch gets.

I used to live in Oakville, BTW, before I married an American girl and moved to Texas. I really miss the GTA, actually.

You guessed it...

Heres the address: http://www.saltlake2002.com/

Text of both URL's

http://www.webreference.com/new/020117.html

http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/2002_01_13_ar ch ive.shtml#8746539

Complete with frames and fully dependent on JavaScript for display,
this site does at least feature ALT tags for images, unlike last
time when IBM had to add them later at great cost.

Beyond the fact that folks who turn off JavaScript are locked out,
there are some other glaring, yet common usability problems.

* Performance Problems

Frames are used throughout the site. These should be banished as
they slow down the display and clutter up our screens. The frames
are written with JavaScript document.writes, with no
alternative, ouch. View sourcing a few frames shows the site's
been Akamaized which is good, but it's overspecified with
font tags? This is the year 2002 people, anyone heard of CSS?
Switching to CSS here would save mucho bandwidth.

* Black Links

How do users tell these are links? How can we tell the difference
between black text and black links? They are not even underlined,
further exacerbating the problem. Users expect blue or colored
links, and that they at least be underlined. Some links spawn new
windows, and some even require JavaScript to work, an
accessibility no-no. At least the visited color is different.

* JavaScript Bugs

I know Shirley covered the dependence on JavaScript on her blog
but on my Mac running IE5, *every page* spawns a JavaScript
error. Unsupported objects, syntax errors, this does not engender
confidence in a site. So if you are a Mac user, you might turn
off JavaScript to get rid of the errors right? Guess what. Gotta
have JavaScript enabled to use the site. See my problem here? I
see this is a Microsoft ASP site, could be a sign....

"This site requires javascript enabled on your browser."

If you're going to require JavaScript at least test the site on
PC and Mac platforms with recent browsers. But, I digress.

* META/TITLE Tags

The site doesn't use META tags. Guess they think this is a one-
time thing and traffic won't be a problem.

Here are some sample titles:

Olympics
Frame Top
SLOC - Cover Front Page 3:11 PM ET Thursday, January 17, 2002

This is useful if I happen to not know the current date and time.

The site looks good, but I expect better for such a high profile
site. The main TITLE says just "Olympics." Um, which one? 1924
where Harold Abrahams won the 100 and Eric Liddell the 400? Can't
you just hear Vangelis in the background? A more descriptive title
tag wouldn't hurt here. Try it for yourself below, but be sure to
have JavaScript enabled and don't use a Mac.

http://www.saltlake2002.com/

---------

http://www.brainstormsandraves.com/2002_01_13_ar ch ive.shtml#8746539
Accessibility Lockout for Olympics 2002 Site -- Again?!
After the lawsuit, resulting decision, and huge scandal over the lack of alt tags for the Sydney 2000 Olympics site, I had to go see how the Salt Lake 2002 site fares for accessibility. With Opera in hand to easily turn off images, I checked it out. Whew. This time they use alt tags on the main page, and most of them have decent description text, with just a few having a pointless "image" for the alt tag text. Not bad.

Turning off JavaScript, though, doesn't fare so well. In fact, it makes the site totally inaccessible, as shown in the screenshot below. Uh-oh. "Javascript must be enabled to view this site" pops onto the screen, and there are no links and no alternative means of entering the site. Unbelievable.

They could have easily included the NOSCRIPT element with a hyperlink to access the site without JavaScript.

I must admit to being totally shocked that there's an outright accessibility block like this. Lots of people turn off JavaScript, don't have JavaScript capability, use screen readers and other alternative viewers. To totally prevent these users from using the site is not only poor form for creating a worldwide site to be accessed by anyone but especially nuts in view of their lawsuit for alt tags two years ago.

Unbelievably, though, the above is just the beginning of the story!

I clicked into the Spectator page. Down in the lower left of the Spectator page is this message: "Plug-ins needed for certain content: Flash, Adobe Acrobat Reader." Potential uh-oh again if accessible alternatives aren't provided.

Making note of that, I continued on, clicking the Games Programs link in the navigation. On that page are links to a wide range of programs, including the Paralympic Winter Games. Each of these links, however, are accessible ONLY with JavaScript popup windows (without including hyperlinks within the JavaScript, which is simple to do). As another check, I disabled JavaScript in Opera, then reloaded this page. Guess what?! I got the message again about not being able to access the page without JavaScript. Amazing that I can't even access the Paralympics information. Unbelievable.

On to the Venues page. The good news is that I could access the page without JavaScript turned on. The bad news is that some of the "Important Venue Spectator Information" is only accessible via downloadable PDF files or JavaScript popup windows, once again blocking or potentially blocking accessibility without JavaScript or without the special plug-ins for screen readers that convert the PDF files to readable text.

To top it off, the Paralympics Venue map is a PDF document that isn't accessible friendly.

Another factor is that the site is done in frames. Frames can have accessible alternatives with the NOFRAMES element; however, they didn't use them. When I turned off frames in Opera to try to view this new 2002 Olympics site, there was only a blank white screen with no alternative means to enter the site and no instructions. Nothing.

I suspect I could go from page to page with lots more, and it appears that I've only scratched the surface here of some major blunders with their site's accessibility.

I wonder how long it will take before the you-know-what hits the fan.

Final Thoughts
What bothers me the most is that the developers didn't make use of the Accessibility Guidelines. I have no problem with sites using frames as long as they also provide accessibility alternatives. And of course I have no problem with JavaScript, with Flash, with PDF files. Appropriate alternatives can be provided to allow anyone in the world to access this major worldwide event that represents most of the world, including the Paralympics for the disabled. This is certainly one site that demands the widest range of accessibility as possible.

Its an MSNBC MSN site!

What do you expect. If you make a product that competes agressively, and you spent money to buy the rights to show the olympics online, are you going to cater to your product or to all?

Sure, your conscience says "To all, because that's what the olympics stand for!" But in capitalists minds, its "Crush the competition"

In the end, its both legal, and the way of our economy. So, basically, "tough sh*t".

This is what I'm missing

One of the greatest features of the Sydney 2000 website, was the "... By Country" - So I could select my country (Denmark) and I would get access to all the information that involved the danish athletes.

I almost had that job, glad i left....

I was in Nevada on an extended vacation when they were hiring for the lead on this project, I thought well if they pay over 120k ill live in SLC with my family for a year. I sent in a resume for kicks and grins, we discussed pay and they said with my experience that wouldnt be a problem and was promtly called in for an interview. It wasnt in the door 60 seconds when I realized they dont have a clue . It was a NIGHTMARE of politics and group confusion. I left and thought yeah a cold day in hell before Id do that, I told them I wasnt interested and was still called back several times. POLITICS reighn supreme in SLC when it has ANYTHING to do with the Olympics, Mormons were running the show, no ifs and or buts, the labor for everything was based on nepotism. My family has ins out there and told me what was actually happening behind the scence, I didnt belive it UNTIL I went to the interview.

A camel is a racehorse built by a commitee, On guy says, it needs big feet for traction, another sys, it needs long legs so it can run fast, another says it need big nostrils so it can breathe well while sprinting, You END up with a CAMEL, The olympic web site is no different....

appears ok...

Actually, I hear that every 50th page served by their website shows two young men in suites carrying the Book of Mormon and asking if you like to discuss your religion with a virtual representative...

Of course, I shall be watching closely as my three wives are competing in the synchronized swimming competition.

I take It you are a Mormon...

We should meet for Coffee to discuss this... oh, wait... how about beer? ... oh, yeah... Well, maybe we could just go dancing... Doh!

Hmmm... Tell ya what, I'll talk to yer sister/wife and set up an appointment.

Works OK in Galeon on Linux...

They're not even making any money off the site AFAIK, unlike some sites that don't work (airline sites mostly) without IE5.5 and a lot of good luck.

IMHO it could be a lot worse, as well as a lot better. Usability nuts seem to forget how businesses actually work (which is to say, barely, on most days).

I run Linux full-time at home on my laptop, and use Windows full-time at work (mostly because Windows Media doesn't run natively in Linux, and Real is not representative under Linux of how it runs in Windows -- and our streaming media clients are the biggest source of support calls). Normally I just expect incompetent web design. By my standards, the SLOC website is not half bad, just wickedly slow.

YMMV...

Does anyone really give a shit anymore?

The modern Olympic games are just a friggin' waste of TV time, and just one more thing in human culture that has been taken over, lock, stock and barrel by megacorporations and their sponsorships. Yeah-- like these athletes really got that way by sucking down Big Macs. Riiiiiiight.

The last time the games really mattered was in 1936, when Jesse Owens beat out Hitler's alleged Master Race competitors. It's been all downhill since then. All that's left now is a corporate-sponsored hollow shell. I'm surprised they haven't destroyed the last bastion of tradition and redone the torch to look like a big Bic or Zippo.

Face it, the most Olympic-related fun you can have nowadays is by dusting off your old Commodore 64/Atari/Apple II/what-have-you and loading up the old Epyx "[season] Games" titles.

~Philly

Re:Does anyone really give a shit anymore?

The last time the games really mattered was in 1936, when Jesse Owens beat out Hitler's alleged Master Race competitors. It's been all downhill since then.

Whilst I agree with the thrust of your thesis, you can't track the decline that far back. The problems really started in 1976. The Montreal games were a financial disaster (it is rumoured that the city still hasn't fully settled the account). The 1980 games were marred by the (justified) US boycott due to the previous war in Afghanistan, but I enjoyed them (hey, a Brit won the 100m for God's sake, and Coe and Ovett larged it big style on the track.) But the Russians were prepared to take the economic hit as they thought a successful games w/o the Yanks would be a propaganda coup. The commercialisation really took off in LA in 1984. Desperate not to lose money, the city authorities did a great job finding sponsorship, in the absence of the communist block the US won everything not nailed down (except the women's 3000m, but thats another story) and everyone got rich. No surprises then, that thats been pretty much the format ever since.

Besides, for political impact, Tommie Smith's 1968 protest was the equal of Jesse, to my mind.

Re:Does anyone really give a shit anymore?

The modern Olympic games are just a friggin' waste of TV time

I know - and TV time is just soooo valuable these days. I would hate to have Springer canceled just to watch a guy that has trained his entire life win a gold medal which just happens to be the higest honor his sport can bestow.

Living in Salt Lake City, I have been a large critic of the Organizing Committee. I agree with everything they say about the Mormon Olympics, and the bribery scandal, and the liquor laws, and the transportation snafus, and any other politcal goat fuck that has popped up over the last 6 years.

But also, as my brother was a competitive ski racer (and my mother was a hell of a ice skater in her day), I have a real appreaciation for the hard work and pain that many of these atheletes endure for their entire lives just to get one shot at olympic glory. Thats a huge commitment, and it is important for the games to be televised , and to give these guys the 7 and 1/2 minutes of fame that they deserve. When the games actually start, all the politics and evilness will subside and we may be able to share a little bit of triumph with our athletes.

If you don't want to watch, thats fine - the games will be televised with or without you, but you shouldn't attack the meaning that these 2 weeks have in the lives of the athletes. No matter how commercial or screwed up they are, these are still the friggin Olympic games.

Sure this isn't very thoughtful of them...

But is it really newsworthy? I mean, how many sites are there out there that have similar problems?

(Hint: lots.)

I think there's a broader problem here.

mark

Gnarly accessibility what?

I have several images in my mind:

1. A most excellent business magnate in charge of enforcing the Americans with Disabilities act.

2. A old, twisted central-Asian warlord concerned with copyright law.

3. A combination of (1) and (2). Possibly resembling Jack Valenti.

Oh come on...

Not only do I question the "Site Review" category as "Stuff that matters," but the article seems overly nitpicky to me.

Come on folks, Frames are not only accepted and common, but part of the w3 spec [w3.org] since 1997. JavaScript? The DOM has been standardized for at least as long and JavaScript support has been available (funky, but basically available) since 2.0 browsers... PDF? Well, a fine solution for encapsulated, printable documents (like maps?!!)

I'm all for accessibilty, but this site doesn't seem to be unfairly limiting to me... unless you're using lynx...

The point everyone one is missing

Is that many people don't have broadband at home yet. Heck, the recent slashdot poll had 19% of slashdotters using dialup. That number has to higher for the Jane Imacs and the Allen Oscar Littles. Now between the Flash, Video (Quicktime and Windows Media?), and Actobat files this has got to be a bandwith hungry sight. Unless they feel most people will be viewing this at home they are probably shutting people out.

Entertainment

I can't get that excited about "accessability" issues for what's basically promotion for a TV program.

Languages?

Usability issues aside - with the Olympics being, you know, an international event, you'd expect translations of the page in at least the common European languages plus Japanese and a few others, right?
Whoever had the foresight to exclude all languages other than English and French [saltlake2002.com] is a complete moron, and stands to further propogate the idea of the self-serving American (i.e.: "everybody should speak English!"). To make matters worse, the French site follows none of the English site's design conventions (perhaps a good thing!) and has the personality of a dehydrated camel - there are no images on the site's content pages, for example.
Also, not to be troll, but honestly, guys... when the top story on the front page is a lambasting of the usability of a website, it's a good thing to provide a link of some sort to the site, ya know?

Re:Languages?

Their reasoning behind this is probably because the only two official languages of the Olympics are, you guessed it, English and French. That's what you get for letting a Frenchman create the modern Olympics. It really has nothing to do with "self-serving Americans". If you went to the Olympics, you'd see that all the signs are in English and French. Don't like it? Blame the IOC, not the people who made the website.

By using the official languages only, they avoid several problems. If they used only the "major" languages of Europe, complaints from other peoples of the world would rightfully come rolling in. Similarly, I doubt they have the budget or the resources to make a translation for everyone. By sticking to the official languages, they're avoiding any sign of favoritism or any Euro-centric or Amero-centric prejudices. Or at least they can plausibly deny such prejudices. ;)

Operations: Technology of the Games

Operations: Technology of the Games [saltlake2002.com] contains the following paragraph regarding the website:

Internet: Visitors to www.saltlake2002.com or www.olympics.com will reach the official website for the 2002 Olympic Winter Games, where they'll find the latest news and sports information (including the most comprehensive Games results) as well as important business applications. Olympic fans can also visit the website to purchase event tickets via Tickets.com as well as buy official 2002 Olympics merchandise. This site is being produced, hosted and distributed by MSNBC.com and MSN. As the official online content supplier for the Games, MSN will provide consumers with simple access to exclusive Games content and standings. MSN will also use its advertising products and promotions to market the website across MSN. Behind the scenes, broadcasters, press, and other accredited visitors to the Games can place online orders for mobile phones, PCs and other equipment and services for use during their stay in Salt Lake City. SchlumbergerSema is supplying the website with a variety of Games and results information from the competition venues. Qwest will continue its provision of Internet access services and web-based applications. Other contributors to the website include Monster.com, eBay, and Harris Interactive.

so whats going to happen when we switch to HDTV?

and the olympics are on the other side of the globe? the only way we could watch them is by staying up till 3:00 in the morning?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/18/0742 25 4&mode=thread

After the olympics are over...

...why not buy one of their Unix Servers [saltlake2002.com] or Cisco Routers [saltlake2002.com].

Why the page doesn't display in Konqueror

Here's the reason the page doesn't display in Konqueror (part of page source follows - don't worry, it's short).

<script language=javascript src=/x/inc/get_guid.asp></script>
<script language=javascript src="http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/aa5324979 fa989/www.saltlake2002.com/x/js/xtd_funct.js">& lt;/script>
<script language=javascript src="http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/cf806351e 98dbd/www.saltlake2002.com/x/js/stdframe.js">&l t;/script>
<noscript>Javascript must be enabled to view this site.</noscript>

Note that this is almost ENTIRELY the content of the page. So, in short, it's a combination of hideous web design and one of the handful of javascript-related features (loading javascript from an alternate location via "src=") that isn't yet implemented in Konqueror.

Whatever happed to the "KISS" principle?...

nice resemblance

Compare this [saltlake2002.com] with this [nbcolympics.com]. It's clear that not too much work was done, the site was just copied from the NBC site. As stated in the review, it has the same dull titles: "NBC Olympics" became "Olympics".

It is really sad that the IOC couldn't hire an independant site builder to create the site here.

W3 Validator

After attempting to get W3.org's HTML validator to check the entire page, I finally just checked the main frame. Notice that I had to force HTML 4.01 Frameset, since the document does not include its own DOCTYPE.

Results can be found at this link. [w3.org] Needless to say, the site failed miserably, even with Frameset set.

iCab's built in HTML checker found 238 errors in the main frame alone, not to mention the dozens of errors in the surrounding frames.

Note that I am not suggesting that the writers are ever going to write strict HTML [w3.org] or XHTML [w3.org] (although they should for accessability), but that writing *such bad* HTML that some browsers choke on it is simply unacceptable *for anyone*, especially a web page like the Winter Olympics site.

Not IBM any more, now MSNCB, not surprised...

In prior years, the olympics.com sites were handled by IBM. They did a great job, considering the way that the web and the Internet were growing through those years. Here's a report they created discussing the their "User-Centered [ibm.com]" design approach. For a cool example of a portion of the site targeted for the people at the events, check out the details of the regional weather site [ibm.com] they did.

They broke several Internet world-records [zdnet.co.uk] each year (most hits in a day, hits per minute, etc) they ran the technology using the Lotus Notes Domino servers [ibm.com] on RS/6000. The story I heard was that IBM had faced all the tech challenges it wanted to, and that the inter-personal challenges were making their involvement in upcoming olympics less attractive (ie NBC being a pain). I remember at the time that I chuckled to myself "lets see who else thinks they can pull this one off!"

Now that Microsoft is involved (remember when they blocked non-IE browsers [slashdot.org] from their MSN site?) I'm not surprised at the results so far.

p.s. The fact that the site is not international, here in the year 2002, is an absolute shame! Hell, the 1998 site was at least in English French AND Japanese !

The Good News

If you are wondering, "How the hell did a web site this crappy get built?" then the good news is... you too can be a web designer.

I have a friends who made web development their successful career after getting frustrated by bloated, unfocused motion picture (and other corporate) web sites. Their thought process went something like this... "Someone made a load of dough building this site. I know nothing, but I could still run circles around this design. Damn, I'm changing careers."

Ten reasons to BURN the Olympics: A call to action

This is from:

Burn the Olympics page [burntheolympics.org]

Ten reasons to BURN the Olympics: A call to action

The Olympics are about money

The Games are "given" to the city that shells out the biggest bribes, tax money that could be better spent on community programs to help those who need it the most. While big business profits from increased tourism, the public is stuck with a bill for 1.3 billion.

The Olympics are for the rich

The IOC feeds us lies about bringing growth and sporting arenas for the citizens of Salt Lake. However, the venues built for the games are later only used by the super-elite and wealthy. The Olympics squander public funds to host an event that most people can't even afford to attend.

The Olympics are sexist

Baron de Courbertin, founder of the IOC, was a French chauvinist who hated women. He felt that "The Olympic Games must be reserved for men." Since then (1896), women have slowly been included in more events, but there are still far more men's competitions.

The Olympics promote spectatorship

The Games do not help aspiring athletes, but instead get us to watch TV. The Olympics want people glued to their televisions so they can absorb advertisements. By placing athletes on pedestals, people are disempowered by being convinced that they must buy things to get closer to the gold.

The Olympics are about corporate sponsorship

Corporate sponsors and the media make billions from selling people worthless consumer junk, and they are salivating over this opportunity to pitch their products to billions worldwide. The Games are no longer about sports, but just another medium for marketing.

The Olympics destroy the environment

With the massive temporary influx of people coming to Utah this February, and Salt Lake's lousy public transit, the roads will be packed with cars. Ski resorts and other outdoor event sites are built in places where trees
and animals should be living, not swarming with yuppies.

The Olympics fuel nationalism

The image of the Games that is being pushed by the IOC of countries getting together in times of peace is completely false. The actual dynamic perpetuates nationalistic feelings and bitterness. What the people need is worldwide solidarity, not worldwide competition.

The Olympics celebrate globalization

Like the WTO or FTAA, the Olympics place private interests above all other concerns. Public money is diverted to generate profit for multinationals. Protecting people and the environment are second to investment dollars in the eyes of state officials. Not only this, but the Olympics turn it into a celebration.

The Olympics create a police state

The Utah Olympic Public Safety Command (UOPSC) and the Olympic Joint Terrorism Task Force (OJTTF) are in place to take away your right to free speech, expression, and movement. They are already working to stop legal protests through new laws and arrests. With the actions against the World Trade Center and Pentagon, we will now be seeing a police state of the nature that most activists in North American have never witnessed.

The Olympics drive out "undesirables"

The homeless will be swept off the streets and kept out of the city where they might bother shoppers. SLOC's plans for the homeless include housing them in the State Fair horse barns or letting them "camp" in freezing weather on Antelope Island. Protesters will also be out of view from tourists.

Come to Salt Lake City

Join tens of thousands of undesirables to take a stand against the 2002 Winter Games. Activists will be converging in Utah to expose and oppose the true capitalistic nature of the Olympics. Housing and ride shares are being compiled, if you need or can offer either, contact us.

Who we are and what we do

This information is provided by Build Underground Resistance Not the Olympics (BURN the Olympics). We are working to educate, agitate, and organize for the Salt Lake City Olympics in February of 2002. BURN the Olympics has been initiated by radicals who are not resigned to sit back and watch our city turn into a playground for the rich. We plan on using diverse tactics to tackle the multinational death machine that is killing the planet.

Contact us

Email: [e-mail] [mailto] Our PGP key can be be found here [burntheolympics.org]

Mailing address:

Subvert
PO Box 1112
Salt Lake City, UT 84101

Salt Lake 2002

I've been reading over some of the comments here, and I must say that I am appalled at the unjustified criticism and uneducated stereotyping being thrown around. Salt Lake City [slc.ut.us] is not an inbred hick town, Mormons [mormon.org] don't have horns, and Utahns [utah.gov] are not polygamists (Those that are do so in violation of federal law and are the exception, not the rule. Besides, all the polygamists live in their own cities with unfinished houses to dodge taxes.), and the term "Mormon Olympics" is simply uncalled for. I am speaking as a former resident of Salt Lake City and current resident of Utah, and a Mormon [lds.org] all my life. Isn't this (Open Source) community supposed to be open minded and unjudging (except toward Microsoft products, of course ;p)? Shame on you all. Learn a little bit about a group of