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Driver's Licenses to Become National ID Cards

Posted by michael on Wed Jan 09, 2002 05:15 PM
from the mission-creep dept.
XorNand writes: "Time is reporting that the Dept of Transportation, acting on instructions from Congress, is in the process of linking together states' drivers' license databases. They figure that it'll be cheaper and easier to slip under the radar of civil libertarians and privacy watchdogs. Wonder if Larry is a bit peeved that he's not getting his cut?"
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  • Excellent! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:17PM (#2812638)
    So I just need to stop driving to become a nonperson! Well worth it, really.
    • Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by s0l0m0n (224000) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM (#2812763) Homepage
      Nice thought.

      Won't work for me here in OR, though.. Already don't drive. tried to explain to cop why no license (car == 2000 # steel + 15 gallons volitile liquid intention caused to combust in a contained fashion) and no ID card.. Told him it's not against the law.

      they told me that THEY could arrest me if I didn't have an ID. I laughed at the time, until I found out it was true.

      end of story.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Excellent! by Sc00ter (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:41PM
        • Re:Excellent! by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:57PM
          • Re:Excellent! (Score:5, Informative)

            by nathanm (12287) <nathanm@engine e r . c om> on Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:50PM (#2814565)
            They did pass a law like this at one time, but it was ruled unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court under Brown v. Texas [findlaw.com] in 1979.

            On the grounds of the 4th Amendment, you may not be punished for refusing to identify yourself, unless they have reasonable suspicion that you engaged in criminal conduct. So if you're stopped for a traffic violation, you do have to identify yourself if requested.
            [ Parent ]
            • Re:Excellent! by Jah-Wren Ryel (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @02:26AM
            • Re:Excellent! by Dragonmaster Lou (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:03AM
            • Re:Excellent! by joshsisk (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:49AM
              • Re:Excellent! by nathanm (Score:3) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:39PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Danse (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:48AM
                • Re:Excellent! by Bradley Batt (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:15PM
                  • Re:Excellent! by Danse (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:56PM
                  • Re:Excellent! by joshsisk (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:16PM
              • Re:Excellent! by joshsisk (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:12PM
              • Re:Excellent! by joshsisk (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:19PM
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:Excellent! by IronChef (Score:3) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:25PM
          • Re:Excellent! by nathanm (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:38AM
            • Re:Excellent! by IronChef (Score:2) Friday January 11 2002, @04:30PM
          • Re:Excellent! by lemming2 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:09AM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Excellent! by outlier (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:45PM
        • Re:Excellent! by Sc00ter (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:51PM
          • Re:Excellent! by Drakin (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:11PM
            • Re:Excellent! by hpa (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:35PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Drakin (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:24PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Pathwalker (Score:3) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:46PM
              • Re:Excellent! by dorsey (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:55PM
              • Re:Excellent! by charon_on_acheron (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:15PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Pathwalker (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:36PM
              • Re:Excellent! by pyramid termite (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @07:52AM
              • Re:Excellent! by GreyPoopon (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:13AM
              • Re:Excellent! by charon_on_acheron (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:39PM
              • Re:Excellent! by jnik (Score:2) Thursday January 17 2002, @01:50PM
              • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:Excellent! by FFFish (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:04PM
            • Re:Excellent! by Sc00ter (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @03:14PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Excellent! by fishebulb (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:28PM
        • Re:Excellent! by Danse (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:52AM
          • Re:Excellent! by fishebulb (Score:1) Monday January 14 2002, @01:17AM
      • Re:Excellent! by Kymermosst (Score:3) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:26PM
        • Re:Excellent! by loraksus (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:53PM
          • Re:Excellent! by Kymermosst (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @02:52AM
            • Re:Excellent! by spectral (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @03:19AM
              • Re:Excellent! by Ionized (Score:1) Friday January 11 2002, @10:52AM
              • Re:Excellent! by spectral (Score:1) Friday January 11 2002, @09:40PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Ionized (Score:1) Thursday January 17 2002, @02:09PM
            • Re:Excellent! by ananke (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:38AM
            • Re:Excellent! by TekPolitik (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @06:23PM
              • Re:Excellent! by Kymermosst (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @07:36PM
              • Re:Excellent! by TekPolitik (Score:2) Friday January 11 2002, @03:09AM
          • Re:Geography Quiz by plague3106 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:09AM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:cops by God Takeru (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:32PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Excellent! by Infonaut (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:32AM
      • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • not quite (Score:4, Informative)

      by twitter (104583) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:39PM (#2812946) Homepage Journal
      There will simply be a blank driver's license space under your social security number. The other information will be filled in from private databases that the federal government can now demand under the Patriot Act (or whatever it was called). Sure enough that Sam's card photo will provide all the information some deranged file jockey thinks he needs for facial recognition software. All the careful records your insurance company has been keeping will go in. The debt collectors have had them for years, as an aquantence painfully made aware a friend of mine who defaulted on a pap smear. Enough data is available is available to eliminate inconsistencies due to errors or intention.

      You have been a number for years. Now it's overt. The technology has made invasion cheap, we can fight it or roll over. Any ideas on how to fight?

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:not quite (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Lumpy (12016) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:18PM (#2813286) Homepage
        This is close to the truth, ut not completely accurate. Insurance information is horribly innacurate (hell they lose my children on a regular basis and have my daughter in twice with 2 different SS numbers. I also have a friend I met in college that has sucessfully created a persona that doesn't exist from simple social engineering over a few years... (Hey it's a hobby) His dog has a credit card, a ham radio technician class license, a legitimate (as in filed with the county) birth certificiate and he recently scored a Forign service record for his dog...

        As soon as the dog get's a drivers license with the dog's actual picture.... I'll be really impressed... but creating a fake persona and hiding your real identity is not that difficult to those that really want to and need to.

        Oh and the credit reporting? that is the worst database in terms of accuracy I have ever seen. After recently cleaning my credit of 5, yes 5 incorrect and plain false reportings and findong out that the rate of incorrect and plain wrong reportings on individuals credit reports and even their criminal reports is horribly high. (my ex wife still has it showing outstanding arrest warrents in different databases, even though this happened 3 years ago it has all been settled and cleared up..... I feel sad for her that when pulled over by police outside her home area she has to carry a court paper stating that the warrent is invalid..... (sad as in .... HAHAHAHAHAHAH)
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:not quite by geekoid (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:22PM
      • Re:not quite (Score:5, Insightful)

        by LoRider (16327) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:23PM (#2813335) Homepage Journal
        Resistence is futile. How can you fight fear? Fear is going to win over liberty and I think everyone knows that.

        Our world changed on 9/11/01 and it will never ever be the same. We are doing exactly what our enemies wished us to do, we are giving in?

        Here's the deal: there have always been businesses and lobbyists waiting in the wings for something to happen that will allow them to get what they want, total control/knowledge of our daily lives. These people, for various reasons, want all this data in one place. They don't care about privacy, they don't care about civil liberties, they only care about their agenda.

        Now that the majority of Americans are scared shitless they are getting their laws passed with ease. And they have the greatest reason in the world to shred the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

        The problem with the average person is that they lack vision. They lack the ability to see beyond their fears and beyond their own problems. They want tax cuts because that $300 will be great for a downpayment on a new tv. They don't mind giving up alittle privacy because they aren't doing anything wrong, not yet.

        What people fail to see is the impact on the country as a whole. They fail to see the fact that once these things start being implemented there is no turning back. Social Security numbers weren't meant to be your national ID number, but it turned out that way. Even if social security were abolished, we would still be issued a number xxx-xx-xxxx

        I really think the terrorists won, it's over. The United States of America lost and it's over. I am truly saddened by this, I really am. Where can I live now, where is there a country that truly cares about it's citizens?
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:not quite by rho (Score:3) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:17PM
          • Re:not quite by LoRider (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:56PM
            • Re:not quite by Squareball (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:22PM
              • Re:not quite by Platypii (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:44PM
              • Re:not quite by IsaacW (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:18PM
              • Re:not quite by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:12AM
              • Re:not quite by haizi_23 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:35AM
              • Re:not quite by Sodium Attack (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @10:37AM
              • Re:not quite by Squareball (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:52AM
              • Re:not quite by Sodium Attack (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @02:29PM
              • Re:not quite by Sodium Attack (Score:1) Friday January 11 2002, @09:34AM
                • Re:not quite by Sodium Attack (Score:1) Monday January 14 2002, @10:04AM
                • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
              • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:not quite by clone304 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:54AM
          • Re:not quite by rho (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:45PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:not quite by TedCheshireAcad (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:31PM
          • Re:not quite by Squeeze Truck (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:37PM
          • Re:not quite by wierdo (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:24PM
            • Re:not quite by pyramid termite (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:02AM
          • Re:not quite by pyramid termite (Score:3) Thursday January 10 2002, @07:58AM
          • Re:not quite by Sodium Attack (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @10:45AM
          • Re:not quite by mrobin604 (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @06:24PM
          • Re:not quite by Geeky Frignit (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:43PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:not quite by warpeightbot (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:34PM
          • Re:not quite by ArsonSmith (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:49PM
          • Re:not quite by LoRider (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:11PM
        • Re:not quite by squaretorus (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:15AM
        • Re:not quite by Staredown (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:00AM
        • Re:When has anyone ever cared? by mgallix (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:49AM
        • 6 replies beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:not quite (Score:5, Funny)

        by tswinzig (210999) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:27PM (#2813357) Journal
        The debt collectors have had them for years, as an aquantence painfully made aware a friend of mine who defaulted on a pap smear.

        Was the repo-man friendly, at least?
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:not quite by Pig Hogger (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:27PM
        • ditto Virginia by wiredog (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:01PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:not quite by Hostile17 (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:05PM
        • Re:not quite by baronben (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:22PM
          • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:not quite by EllisDees (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @11:07AM
      • the current mess is a result of "fighting it" by markj02 (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:29PM
        • by twitter (104583) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:50PM (#2814750) Homepage Journal
          I want a reliable way of identifying myself, to my computer, to my bank, or to an airline. That's in my own interest: it makes it harder for other people to steal from me.

          A national ID will just be another ID for people to steal. What makes you think the post office is going to detect fraud any better than a national bank? You delude yourself to think any kind of computer program can take the place of personal service.

          Get to know the people you trust your money to. If you want to know your banker, go visit him! Open an account at some nice stable local bank and get to know someone there. If you want to be sure of ticket purchasing, get to know a travel agent. The local banker can offer you the same account and credit card insurnce that the national bank does but he might know your spending habits better than a computer program. Sure, it costs more but there's a trade off to everything isn't there? As a society, we get what we demand.

          Identity theft is rampant because big institutions are irresponsible with their lending. The same fool that thought automatic executions of email attachments thought it would be a good idea to offer credit cards by mail. It just screams, screw me and everyone else, I don't care so long as I'm raking in the cash.

          [ Parent ]
      • Passport should be the National ID card by interrupt75 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:50AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Excellent! by dperkins (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:22PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Excellent! by bughunter (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:03PM
      • Re:Excellent! by Pope (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:19PM
      • Re:Excellent! by Planesdragon (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:20PM
        • Re:Excellent! by ahodgson (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:10PM
          • Re:Excellent! by Planesdragon (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:49PM
      • Re:Excellent! by clyons (Score:1) Friday January 11 2002, @12:38PM
    • by Ungrounded Lightning (62228) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:13PM (#2813673) Journal
      Most (all?) states will issue non-drivers a state ID card, typically through the same agency that issues driver's licenses.

      Essentially it's the same as a driver's license except it doesn't license you to drive. Use it to prove your identity, residency, and age, buy booze, cash checks, etc.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Excellent! by MrFredBloggs (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @05:37AM
    • Re:Excellent! by rev_reeko (Score:1) Sunday January 13 2002, @12:07AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Let me guess... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Nightpaw (18207) <jesse@[ ]icago.edu ['uch' in gap]> on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:17PM (#2812639) Homepage
    If you don't drive, you're a terrorist, right?
  • This New History by analemma (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:18PM
  • What about an ID number? by eaddict (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:18PM
  • Constitution by Breakfast Pants (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:19PM
    • Re:Constitution by dlt074 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:35PM
    • Re:Constitution by Breakfast Pants (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:37PM
    • Elastic Clause (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ObligatoryUserName (126027) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:56PM (#2813110) Journal
      The powers of Congress are not all explicitly enumerated in the Constitution. The last sentence of Article 1 Section 8 says that Congress can make all laws "necessary and proper" to enable their enumerated powers. This might not sound like much, but in practice it has allowed the Government extrodinary latitude. This was a big issue when Hamilton was pushing for a national bank (It doesn't say anything at all in the Constitution about the Government running a bank), but it's been a pretty much resolved issue for about 200 years. I wonder what percentage of current laws would survive without that clause.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Elastic Clause by praktike (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @02:11AM
      • 9th and 10th Amendments Explained (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ObligatoryUserName (126027) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:55PM (#2814766) Journal
        For the 9th and 10th Amendments to make sense (as far as why they're there in the first place) I think it helps to remember that the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) were immediately to the Constitution after its ratification (proposed by the First Congress and fairly rapidly ratified). At the time, the memory of British oppression was still fresh in people's minds, and many of the states when they ratified the Constitution either asked for a Bill of Rights, or made their ratification dependent on a Bill of Rights being added. The purpose of the Bill was to answer specific objections to the Constitution and to reassure the people that the new government would not be a tyranny.

        The 9th Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people" is one such reassurance. All it's saying is "don't worry if you don't see one of your rights explicitly spelled out in the Constitution - just because it isn't in there doesn't mean that the Constitution gets rid of it."

        The 9th Amendment has been brought up as an argument for the right to privacy, but to my knowledge a court has never accepted that argument. However, the Supreme Court has said that a right to privacy does exist as an implication of some of the other amendments (specifically in the Due Process clause of the 14th amendment.)


        The 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" is another amendment that you could say doesn't really do much. The authoritative word on the matter was set down by none other than John Marshall (who is probably most famous for articulating the theory of judicial review in Marbury vs. Madison). In Marshall's decision of McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) he said two things - 1) the people who wrote the amendment didn't mean for it to limit the powers of the Federal government because they wrote it to read "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution..." instead of "The powers not [explicitly] delegated to the United States by the Constitution...". It might seem somewhat absurd to parse the sentence so much, but for the most part members of the First Congress, which submitted the amendment in the first place, agreed that the court was interpreting their intent correctly. 2)Marshall pointed out that any document that explicitly enumerated every power of government would be too large, convoluted, and cumbersome a document to even be understood. Remember, we have the Constitution was written by a group of men who considered the Confederation too weak to fix.

        What may be confusing, though, is that the history of the 10th Amendment isn't as simple as that. Even though the authoritative decision was made in 1819 the Courts would occasionally use the 10th Amendment to curtail the powers of the federal government. It's generally accepted that the court wasn't doing this because it had stumbled upon a more correct interpretation of the Constitution (after all, James Madison himself agreed with Marshall, and he wrote the Bill of Rights, so he should know!) No, the Court was curtailing Congress's power for political reasons, specifically the fact that most members of the court believed in laszie faire economics. The fact that the Court tried to cut the legs out from under Congress is a great example of the way the 3 branches fight amongst each other, and the reason we need checks and balances. Anyway, speaking of checks and balances, the practice of using the 10th Amendment to cripple Congress came to an end when FDR enacted all those government programs that he's so famous for. Think about it, the Depression era programs have to be the greatest expansion of Federal powers in our history - how was he able to get it past a Court that wanted explicitly wanted a weak federal government. In 1937 FDR checked the power of the Supreme Court by threatening to expand the Supreme Court and to add members who would give him the results he wanted. It's an amazingly dirty tactic, but it did restore the interpretation that is regarded to be the correct interpretation. This interpretation was reiterated by the 1941 case United States v. Darby.

        So, what was the point of the 10th Amendment? Just like the 9th amendment it was a statement intended to reassure the people, but not to alter the functioning of the Constitution - it was simply a statement of a truism.

        I have to admit though, that the argument isn't 100% dead. Why? Because in 1995 the conservatives of the Supreme Court (the same political types that were invoking the 10th Amendment before FDR) invoked the 10th Amendment again (US vs Lopez) - now, so far this seems to be a fairly limited ruling (because it hasn't affected any laws outside of the original law yet), but it may be that politically inspired use of the 10th Amendment is coming back in vogue. (Mostly depends on if more conservatives get added to the court, the decision to invoke the 10th was one of those 5-4 affairs.)

        So, in summary, there's a chance that the Supreme Court would agree with you as far as the 10th Amendment goes, but 1)I doubt they would be correct in so agreeing, and 2)cynically speaking they probably won't do that to a law enacted in this environment by a Republican President. For better arguments than mine, I suggest reading the remarks of the Justices for the cases I've mentioned.

        IANAL, but I was a history major.

        [ Parent ]
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Constitution by jrp2 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:58PM
    • Re:Constitution by Squeeze Truck (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:07PM
    • Re:Constitution by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:17PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Pretty much the standard as it is... (Score:4, Informative)

    by 11thangel (103409) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:19PM (#2812654) Homepage
    I don't know very many places that don't require a driver's license as the standard form of identification. State sponsored photo ID's are basically the only form of ID that is accepted everywhere (i.e. using personal checks at stores, getting into nightclubs, etc). Making em national isn't going to be much of a change, except for 2 things. 1) Your less likely to be thrown out of a club in another state for having an ID they don't recognize, and 2) You can't get away with speeding in another state quite as easily, because now the state trooper has access to ALL the state databases :)
  • Missouri by fo0bar (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:20PM
  • Shouldn't it be... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by robbyjo (315601) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM (#2812675) Homepage Journal

    Shouldn't the national ID be uniform across the country? In the sense that the kind of info displayed on the card and the lay out. If it is not uniform, then it's harder to detect forgery on those ID, especially if the ID is out-of-state.

    Then, the question on the on-card security add-on implies that we're effectively getting a new driver's licence ID. I dunno why don't they just enforce a single, uniform ID in the first place?

    Just my 2c.

  • so now we'll be nationally known by motherfuckin_spork (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • DMV Tests by jmkaza (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM
    • Re:DMV Tests by mencik (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM
  • Press Leak by Mannerism (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM
  • holy moly by SpacePunk (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Where does this leave Virginia? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Spamalamadingdong (323207) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM (#2812687) Homepage Journal
    Virginia, if you didn't know, is a state which once required only an affidavit of residency to get a driver's license. If it is that easy to get a DL in even one state, it's a piece of cake to have "legitimate ID" that is utterly bogus in truth.

    The danger is that such a bogus ID will be taken as valid in more places and for more things due to its "national scope", and it'll be easier to get into things and do more damage than it is now (difficult concept, I know).

  • What about.... by The Great Wakka (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:22PM
  • Wow, that's a lot of data by Mike Schiraldi (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:22PM
  • non-photo drivers licenses by mz001b (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:22PM
  • Damn... by meggito (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:22PM
  • Uh-oh... by daeley (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:22PM
  • right to privacy? by zook (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:24PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Anyone who thinks this isn't a national ID card... by gpinzone (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:25PM
  • Saw on Dateline last night... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jbfaninmo (540470) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:25PM (#2812743)
    How incredibly easy it was for them to get fake drivers licenses, SS Numbers and Birth certificates. So now if you get a driver's license in California under a fake name, you can create a person that exsists in every single state. I don't see how this will help.
  • Drivers Licenses as an Invasion of Privacy by EraseEraseMe (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:26PM
  • What happens if you don't have a drivers liscense? by amuro98 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:26PM
  • Driver's license homogenation by torklugnutz (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM
  • What about by nuclearsnake (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM
  • How are points going to work by Krimsen (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM
  • Oops... by ackthpt (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:27PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Bush won't let this happen (Score:4, Funny)

    by 8string (316088) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:28PM (#2812774)
    If he does, his daughters fake ids won't work anymore.

    :)
  • Standardized format by crow (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:28PM
  • SIN-less by White Roses (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:29PM
  • National db okay, national ID stupid. by Anonymous Freak (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
  • The scary part (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rgmoore (133276) <glandauer@charter.net> on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM (#2812802) Homepage

    I'm not sure which is the scarier part of the article- the way it blythely assures you that this isn't really a significant step because the civil liberties damage is already done, or the fact that this is probably true. As they point out, all this involves is linking together data that's already kept and making it a bit easier to access. The problem is that making it easier to access will make it that much more tempting to access it for more and more trivial reasons. If it's really possible to check any driver's licence just by scanning it, how long will it be until you have to scan your license to buy alcohol or tobacco, rather than just showing it (or here in California not bothering to show it because nobody seems to care)?

  • What if I... by gillbates (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
  • It has been for awhile... by billmaly (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
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  • hmm by DeadPrez (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
  • Watch your tone (Score:4, Insightful)

    by the_rev_matt (239420) <slashbot@th[ ]ymous.com ['eon' in gap]> on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:31PM (#2812823) Homepage
    I particularly like the tone of the article. "Give up, don't fuss, it's just too hard. Life will be much easier if you just conform." The Disneyfication of the Corporate States of America continues....
  • Very Scary by YanceyAI (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:31PM
    • Re:Very Scary by allism (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:47PM
      • Re:Very Scary by YanceyAI (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:40PM
  • this is strange by Adrian Voinea (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:31PM
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  • Driving a "privilege" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Krimsen (26685) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:32PM (#2812834) Homepage
    Right now, driving is considered a "privilege" (If you ask me, it's pretty much a requirement nowadays), which makes it real easy for states to take away your driving "privileges" for accumulating too many points, etc... If this becomes a national ID card, what is going to happen to that "privilege" philosophy?
  • Typical.. by Vegeta99 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:32PM
  • No objectivity by Dolly_Llama (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:32PM
  • This is yesterday's news... by Stackis (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:32PM
  • Um insecure? by malfunct (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:32PM
  • ID != citizenship by oliverk (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:33PM
  • we need more control over our ID by warnerpr (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:34PM
  • What will be the death bill for that one? by Delirium Tremens (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:34PM
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  • Govt credits cards would be more like it by bunhed (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:34PM
  • How about people who can't drive? by haggar (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:35PM
  • Oh great! by jhines0042 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:35PM
    • Re:Oh great! by Tackhead (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:44PM
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  • Maybe I'm just naive, but... by x136 (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:36PM
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  • Well, it COULD have been worse... by NerveGas (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:36PM
  • We have national ID cards... by aquarian (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:36PM
  • Ummmm.... by tsmit (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:37PM
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  • Author's Assurance by _Sprocket_ (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:37PM
  • Insurance companies are going to love this. by TheViffer (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
  • Simple! by the_radix (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
  • national ID's... by TheBoquaz (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
  • Hypocracy by Telastyn (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
  • Privelege versus Right by SanLouBlues (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
  • This misses 95% of the benefit of a national ID by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:39PM
  • fp? by respite (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:39PM
  • Get a DUI and vanish! by 3seas (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:39PM
  • Not really Big Brother, is it? by jsarek (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:40PM
  • Heinlein said it best by Unknown Poltroon (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:42PM
  • Nothing at All by Renraku (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:43PM
  • by Masem (1171) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:43PM (#2812984)
    I saw mention of this yesterday with some comments from EPIC, but I can't remember where, but in general, while these groups would rather not have a national ID card in the first place, agree that the proposed method for standardizing the drivers' licenses across states. Reasoning included:
    • Decentralized database. States would be the only repository of the information associated with the DL. This as opposed to a large federal database (and at much added cost).
    • Standardizing the info on the cards. This would include a photo id, signature, and a magbar for quick input into a computer. Instead of the mess in which some states don't have photo IDs, some require SSN, etc. This still leaves enough up to the states as to not trample their states' rights.
    • Improved communication between databases. Because the system would be decentralized, there would need to be an easy way for government officials to request info from such DBs; because states would be required to at least store a minimum of information, it would be simple to define a query standard. This way, rules can be put in place that if information is requested without a warrent, only specific pieces could be sent. If the database was centralized, then this would be much harder to enforce.
    The groups are not completely at ease; this plan would suddenly give several DMVs near-absolute power, and unless regulations are put in place, this might be abuse. They also do worry, as many have posted, that there are both legal and illegal reasons not to have a DL; those that legally lack one may be forced to get one despite not having to drive -- this may cause states to have to provide DLs with "No Driving" restrictions to be issued in general for those currently without one.

  • I'm sure larry will have something to say now... by Mysticalfruit (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:43PM
  • Interesting by matth (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:43PM
  • National ID card by Patrick Cable II (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:44PM
  • This will be expensive.... by truesaer (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:45PM
  • They pretty much are already by epseps (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:46PM
  • Magnetic ID cards. my name is M19432-54781-69472 by Transient0 (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:46PM
  • Pretty much a no brainer. by noahbagels (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:46PM
  • National ID Cards by samurphy21 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:46PM
    • Why by Synn (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:58PM
      • Re:Why by smack_attack (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:06PM
        • Re:Why by Balagan (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @07:48AM
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    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • But I already _have_ a National ID card! by foxtrot (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:47PM
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  • Interesting Quote by Sawbones (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:47PM
  • What if you dont have one??? by Dajur (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:48PM
  • The Soviet Union had these, by Wateshay (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:48PM
  • Typical Slashdot Spin by Synn (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:49PM
  • who cares? by hypergreatthing (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:49PM
  • This was set up by requiring social security #s by Ungrounded Lightning (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:51PM
  • Making a covert ID system overt by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:53PM
  • Your dreamy Orwellian dystopia awaits! by Donnellizer (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:54PM
  • I figured this had been done already by Faceprint (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:54PM
  • Corruption and DMV by Malk-a-mite (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:56PM
  • I'm actually somewhat satisfied. by dotderf (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:58PM
  • Already happening... by pipeb0mb (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:58PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Automated Voter Registration? by 8string (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:59PM
  • Does that mean we are a police state now? by johncheng (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:59PM
  • Frank doesn't get it.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dackroyd (468778) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:00PM (#2813145) Homepage
    If the U.S. domestic response to terrorism starts to resemble Zimbabwe's, which passed a law in November making it compulsory to carry ID on pain of fine or imprisonment, well, that's something to worry about.

    But until Congress passes a law like that -- and until you can't enter a movie theater without the usher checking you for priors -- there isn't all that much to get exercised about.


    Er, no Frank, that's when it's too damn late to start doing anything about it.

    Once you get to that stage people start becoming afraid of resisting goverments attempts to be Big Brother in all aspects of life, as it becomes a lot easier for the government to make otherwise innocent peoples life difficult by 'accidently' putting false information on the cards.

    Oops. We accidentally put that you've got a criminal history on your card...oh well better luck at the next job interview.


    Most of the privacy rights -- if there really are such things...


    Yes, Frank such a thing does exist in the rest of the world. Here's [dataprotection.gov.uk] the government body that protects my privacy and data.


    For some, the real problem with smarter, more centralized ID cards is that they give bureaucrats a better chance to screw up more of your life


    No there are lots of people who don't like the idea of either government or companies being able to see anymore information about them, than is absolutely necessary.

    With the growth of the Internet it is getting far too easy for companies and governments to trade information about their citizens.
    • Re:Frank doesn't get it....getting OT (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dackroyd (468778) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:42PM (#2813465) Homepage
      Having had a few deep breaths and calmed down a bit, I'd like to add that despite 30 years of terrorist attacks (sponsored by US citizens), the UK hasn't seen it necessary to introduce ID cards.

      In fact the only time there was a widespread to detain possible terrorists was the internment in the 1970's, which cause so much hatred of the UK government, that it recruited a whole new generation of terrorists for the Republican cause.

      To prevent terrorists striking against you, a country has three options:
      1) Stop the terrorists hating you so much that they will risk their lives or commit suicide to hurt you.
      2) Have focussed intelligence agencies that can actually gather and act on intelligence data, rather than destabilising other countries.
      3)Kill _everyone_ who might not like you.

      The US is having a good go at number 3 (3,800 civilians [indymedia.org] so far and counting), but in the long run methods one and two are cheaper in dollars, lives lost and liberties given up in the name of freedom.
      [ Parent ]
  • Fake Licenses? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sterno (16320) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:00PM (#2813146) Homepage
    Great! So you get a fake driver's license. I mean, wasn't the whole point of a National ID card having a reliable way to identify somebody? What the hell makes them think that driver's licenses are a reliable method? You slip your friend at the DMV a few hundred and you can get a license no problem. Hell, in Illinois they'll even let you drive a truck!

    It's all about trust relationships. At some point down the line you have to trust that somebody has verified who a person is and has done so accurately. As long as the system is dependent on trusting an underpaid, overworked, low level bureaucrat, people who want to get false identification will continue to do so. Heck, even if they are a well paid bureaucrat in a cushy position, they can still be bought, it just costs a bit more.

    Ultimately the only people who this will effect is law abiding citizens who don't get fake ID's. Anybody who honestly wants to conceal their identity will continue to do so in any number of ways that are nearly impossible to prevent.
  • Mark of the Beast by cliffy2000 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:03PM
  • First Post? by BluedemonX (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:03PM
  • Excellent... by gkbarr (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:06PM
  • A look ahead to the nightmare (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mdecerbo (9857) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:06PM (#2813194)
    Once biometric, SSN-linked driver's licenses are in place, we'll be on the slippery slope and ready to roll. It'll be so convenient to require the ID, that just about everyplace will require it... ballparks, trains, stores...

    And once there are nifty little networked readers in all these places, it'll be incredibly trivial for Big Brother to track your movements-- hey, you had to give your SSN when you bought that prepaid cell phone after the PATRIOT II passed in 2003, right?

    And, of course, Big Brother has lots of annoying minions working in the IRS, local law enforcement, and collections agencies, all of whom are going to have much easier access to records than the law would suggest.

    This isn't the America I want to live in. I want to live in a country where the long arm of the law doesn't have the resources to pursue anyone but the real baddies, by conventional means like the ones we had five or ten years ago.

    I want this for your sake. I want you to be able to escape bad debts, a warrant for your arrest on drug charges, the ex-spouse with an unfair judgement against you. Right now you could change your name, move to another state, pay cash, and live quietly, and thankfully, never screwing up again.

    But once all this is in place, you'll be sickly aware that you'll never manage to avoid the little red light on the ID-card scanner that'll bust you in a moment. Then you'll be more prone to a violent solution to your desparate situation, once escape and disappearance are no longer a realistic option. That's worse for my own safety.

    (Of course, it'll please the Feds-- more of an excuse to clamp down on gun rights!)

    I want to live in a country with a little breathing room, without an omnipresent electronic nanny state.
    Doesn't anybody else, in the country of Patrick Henry and Tom Paine? Isn't anybody going to fight this?

    I know that some of you, for your "safety", want to have a national ID card, national ID number, surveillance cameras, and face recognition everywhere. But isn't there a place, actually otherwise a really nice place, that you could move to? I think it's called "Europe".

  • What about our Social Security numbers? by WillSeattle (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:08PM
  • what if you dont drive? by nikkatsu (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:08PM
  • Some Questions by Mr. Eff (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:09PM
  • States Rights. by cgleba (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:10PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • DMV = 666? by richardtallent (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:10PM
  • So if I lose my driver's license ... by WillSeattle (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:14PM
  • aahhhh... by geekoid (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:18PM
  • There are several inaccuracies in this story... by mellonhead (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:19PM
  • The real problem with a national ID (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ian Bicking (980) <ianbNO@SPAMcolorstudy.com> on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:20PM (#2813301) Homepage
    The real problem with a national ID isn't the ID. Every state has IDs -- drivers license and otherwise -- and it's currently reasonable to expect nearly everyone will have some form of ID. Foreigners will always have a passport.

    Unifying the ID isn't really a big deal in and of itself. There's no danger to civil rights that people could more easily verify the validity of identification. The particular set of information they choose to standardize on is likely to be innocuous.

    The danger of a national ID is in the way it is used. In particular, in the use of a magstrip or other machine-readable common format. Most states seem to have something like this -- Illinois has some sort of 2D bar code, for instance -- but because there's no standard you cannot reasonably expect to scan every person's card at some given point. So I've never seen anyplace where they actually use a machine to read the card.

    If you have a national ID, then this would no longer be the case. It makes it very possible -- and likely inevitable -- that IDs will regularly be scanned in all sorts of locations. Courthouses, airports (whether or not you are flying), privately secured locations (office buildings, etc.)... and the next thing you know there's random road blocks (to catch drunk drivers, drug smugglers, terrorists, or whatever other justification they choose) and they'll scan your ID.

    If these systems were one-way, even this wouldn't be too terribly bad. That is, if such scans only checked to see if there was an outstanding warrant or other legal restriction placed on you. However, this is unlikely to be the way these cards would be used by the government, and certainly not the way they'd be used by private security. It is all too easy to record every time you pass such a checkpoint, and in that way coming up with an extensive profile of every person's movement and associations.

    Of course, much of this already exists with credit cards. And who knows... maybe they'll join them together.

  • Coming soon to a theatre near you... by Aexia (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:23PM
  • It's a government conspiracy! by Ooblek (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:38PM
  • Then I'm Done For by 00Monkey (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:48PM
  • Is this really new? (Score:3, Informative)

    by foonf (447461) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:49PM (#2813507) Homepage
    I recently got my drivers license. In the process of doing so, I was told that someone in Alabama with the same name birthdate as myself had multiple DUI convictions. So it seems this information is already national available to government agencies. I don't think we need to be really worried until they start talking about tying it to biometrics or something ridiculous like that. I mean, its worrisome, but only to the extent that systems like this have been worrisome since their introductions in the previous century. Not a new, or necessarily worse, problem.

    As though no one possessing a valid ID has ever committed a terrorist attack...
  • Is this really that bad? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BSDevil (301159) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:52PM (#2813527) Journal
    I beleive in Civil Liberties and all, but is a national ID card that bad? Before you mark this as 'Flamebait,' consider much of Europe (France and Switzerland spring to mind). Every French and Swiss person legally has to have a national ID card and carry it with them at all times, on pain of arrest. They're a little larger than a credit card, and have a strip along the bottom that you could pass through a passport reader (somthing like <<<CAN<<<NAMEGOESHERE<<&lt ;), so if it wanted the Man could bring up your entire immigration record in one go. That's the theory: in practice, no one carries them or is ever asked for them, and if you are, you can just say "I forgot." Many of my French friends have never been asked for them in their lives, even when arrested. All they use them for is to travel within Europe without carrying their passports (yes, they can even fly with them on intra-Europeen flights).

    The point is, just because they have a possibility to be used for evil, dosen't mean they will be. Look at Napster: it (in itself) is not illegal, it just has the possibility of being used for illegal purposes, yet we support it. Now switch the word "illegal" with "bad" and the word "Napster" with the phrase "National ID Card" and instantly our opinion chanages. Well-legislated IDs can be useful, and besides, most of you already have one; it's called a Passport (and if you don't have one you should). They can be well used in such things are preventing identity theft, reducing fraud, and miinimizing travel pains. The key to them is well-written and concrete legislation, crafted without the input of lobby groups or vested interests. In France, no bartender can ask for your National ID card, nor can an insurer, a municipal police officier, or a private company. In fact, I htink it may be a constitutional right that only the Feds can (not sure about that). Do they have a problem with it? No, because only (theoretically) responsible people have access to the card. Legislate well, and National IDs (be them in Driver's Licence form or whatnot) can be a Good Thing(tm).
  • The government's plan to make GATTACA by capsisko (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:52PM
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  • Unintended Consequences (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DaveWood (101146) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:56PM (#2813563) Homepage
    Whether we generally acknowledge it or not, we have an excellent system of government here in America. Some of this is based on the forethought and intention of the various people who helped found our country, and some of it is based on chance, or, if you prefer, luck. Things happened in many cases because of compromise, accident, and caprice.

    One of the most important unintended features of our government is the amount of play between law and enforcement. It is widely understood (among law and philosophy students, anyway) that no society enforces its laws perfectly. Laws are usually written with the inherent limitations of the state in mind.

    In many cases, a poorly or selectively enforced law is good for society - and I will take copyright as an example (albeit a hot button one). We currently have an impossibly strict and protectionist set of laws protecting authors (of books, software, etc). Yet these laws are rarely enforced at all, and when they are, typically against companies or large organizations doing what we would call "bootlegging" or "piracy" and hardly ever against "informal" violations. Person to person breaches of copyright happen with astounding frequency and, looked at objectively, constitute a massive act of civil disobedience, with just those acts we know about totaling millions per minute (napster, etc). This state of affairs, where enforcement lags behind the law, has two important effects it would have been difficult to achieve "head on:"

    1) Artists do get paid, and they get paid quite well. Copyrightable media is a worldwide business estimable in the trillions of dollars. Most people who can pay the author, do.

    2) Conversely, lower-income and disadvantaged users gain access to books, software, and other media for free (by violating the law without consequences).

    Should this be stopped via systematic enforcement, a massive chilling effect would occur across all aspects of our society, as children, students, and low-income users could no longer learn on stolen $1,000 compilers, or depend on hundreds of "stolen" texts. Programmers lose their (illegal) access to the latest tools and work of the industry, slowing feedback and development overall. As copyrighted material represents our intellectual heritage, properly enforcing the tollbooth in front of it stymies our intellectual development.

    Surveillance technology such as a national ID is dangerous because, aside from the obvious potential for abuse, it allows for enforcement which is too effective. Many of the laws in our country were written as copyright law is - to be enforced using traditional, 20th century law-enforcement techniques. In some cases these laws (copyright, taxes) have extravagant penalties by way of "intimidation" - since enforcement is expected to be difficult or impossible. While new technology may be effective in improving enforcement against violent criminals and other laudable activities (for which improved enforcement actually is better), it will have numerous negative effects as it surpasses legislative intent on good laws and reduces the "containment" of bad laws.

    Of course, no discussion of federal or quasi-federal surveillance or information-gathering technology should pass without further acknowledgement of the general "chilling effect" on free speech and free expression these technologies create.

    When people are aware that they are being observed (even in abstract, highly specific, or systematized ways), their behavior is altered - whether it is no longer stealing a kiss on a dark street corner for fear of the mute eyes of the surveillance camera on the traffic light, or altering the way they write their correspondence, choosing not to share an opinion in a debate, or choosing not to travel. This is an implicit and often unconscious reaction to authority, and it represents, collectively, the psychological weight of being observed. U.S. Courts have acknowledged that this kind of tacit "intimidation" sometimes constitutes a breach of our first amendment rights, as it makes us self-conscious and we work to avoid an implicit judgment. It is political dialogue on a primitive level - and where those in power are actively observing, "dissent" is stifled.

    Common sense can tell you that to live in a state of "freedom" we must be free of the specter of observation.

    The story of government is the story of uneasy compromise between freedom and conformity necessary for a healthy society. America has had its success on the foundation of personal freedom's default supremacy; here, our homes, our persons, and our daily business are meant to be sacrosanct and immune from invasion by both each other and the state, as evinced by many of our strongest legal edicts (the Bill of Rights is preoccupied extensively with personal sovereignty, and it is - theoretically - the highest legal doctrine in our country). Our lives were meant to be lived outside the view of the government, which must be absent unless it has "probable cause" - and by and large, this is true... at least for the moment.

    This is not an accident, but by design. Our government's success is based on its distrust of itself. We could still have a monarchy if we believed people in power always know what's best, or do the right thing. Instead, we have a complicated, subdivided, cynical democracy; one which, even now, functions in spite of itself, its wheels greased with millions of illegal yet necessary actions every moment. In all of human history, Government has never, ever walked it's talk, but with new technology, it might soon be ready to try.
  • Congressional authorization? by wildbill2 (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:59PM
  • What will Jenna do? by WillSeattle (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:00PM
  • Use your passport by John Jorsett (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:05PM
  • Government is watching... will they act? by gessel (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:06PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • I don't carry mine by Roy Ward (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:13PM
  • SSN and drivers license numbers.. by nolife (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:14PM
  • Terrorists are going to write "Occ: Terrorist"?? by Com2Kid (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:16PM
  • Isn't it fascinating by kaxman (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:26PM
  • National driver's licence by csbruce (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:27PM
  • Uh, guys by maxxon (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:42PM
  • by markj02 (544487) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:57PM (#2813939)
    A card that you can use to prove that you are you is very useful to you and it doesn't hurt you. Furthermore, a globally unique "identifier", which should really be a collection of different digital signatures, is useful to you for all sorts of things. How else, for example, do you expect for your bank to do business with you and not run afoul of impostors? Ultimately, it comes down to biometric IDs and secrets, whether implemented by the neighborhood clerk you have known for 20 years or by a machine.

    Problems arise when the "card" isn't just a card, but a set of back-end databases and records that are exchanged in non-transparent ways and that you have no control over. Problems also arise when the "cards" and ID numbers are designed and used poorly (e.g., when knowing your semi-public social security number potentially can be used to get access to your bank accounts).

    The problem with using driver's licenses and all the other bogus ID documents and numbers that exist in the US is that they don't work well and are being used for things they were never designed for. Self-proclaimed civil libertarians are at fault here: we won't get any good, secure ID cards and numbers as long as any such effort is immediately torpedoed.

    What we should do to protect our civil liberties is to design a robust, secure system of identification, and create privacy legislation that lets us get control of who stores what data about us. Or, in different words, the complete opposite of the agenda of the libertarians and the conservatives.

  • The Really Hysterical Part by bshuttleworth (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:00PM
  • great! by Cinematique (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:00PM
  • Not quite as bad... by vex24 (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:14PM
  • Class system? by Nathdot (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:16PM
  • could be a good idea by BigBir3d (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:18PM
  • Jury Duty by doorbot.com (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:28PM
    • Re:Jury Duty by Fredbo (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @07:11AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • The sad part is... by Irvu (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @08:31PM
  • by Ethelred Unraed (32954) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:15PM (#2814261) Journal
    Take, for instance, the German system.

    All German citizens are required to have a national ID card. The card is about the same size as a passport (see below for why). It has a photo, place of birth, ID number (which is not the Social Security number -- since the national ID has its own number, there is no need for using the pension fund number for everything as in the US), physical description and city/state of current residency.

    The ID card also is used in the German passport (which is why the size is what it is), thus killing two birds with one stone.

    The card must be renewed every few years, with a new photo and so on; any time you move, you must also get a new card or have the current one updated with the new place of residency. You have to show proof of residency -- a rental contract, a lease or a deed for land, for example. (Foreigners have to do a lot more -- proof of right to work, proof of employment or place of study, proof of income, statement of renouncing of rights to social services, no prior criminal record, in some cases an affidavit from a German sponsor, etc.)

    The thing is, the whole infrastructure of making this work is missing in the US. Not only is there a lack of legislation regulating the use and defining abuse of the ID card (privacy is actually strictly protected in Germany, at least against private individuals), but a lack of people to manage that information.

    Every German city and county (Landkreis or Gemeinde) has a residency office, or Einwohnermeldeamt, where all residents (citizens and foreigners) are required to register (and unregister if you move), along with showing documentation for previous places of residency, next of kin and so on. It is a serious offense to lie on any of those forms or to have a false ID; it is a minor offense to not carry an ID at all times (driver's license doesn't count).

    Because the national ID is not directly linked to the retirement system (or anything else), there is a greatly reduced danger of identity theft WRT the pension or health insurance system. (Cashing checks almost never happens in Germany -- checks are rarely used -- and for an ID at the bank, you use your bank card anyway.)

    The information stored is decentralized -- meaning, while the authorities can quickly access it if need be, it's not all in one spot waiting to be abused; and no one but the government and the inidividual may access that individual's information. Anyone caught trying to misuse or hand over that information to third parties is in deep doo-doo.

    What I want to know is, why not have such a system in the States, rather than this half-arsed idea with driver's licenses? As many have pointed out already, it's vastly open to abuse or chaos and won't do a thing to identify people out-of-state...

    Anyway...

    Cheers,

    Ethelred

  • Retinal scan safety by Giro d'Italia (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @09:49PM
  • Confused by bagel2ooo (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @10:17PM
  • Libertarians by mbrod (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:20PM
  • So what's new? by BlackGriffen (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @11:50PM
  • VA law seems to make this illegal.. by nolife (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:03AM
  • DL# = Pi by Capt_Troy (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:18AM
  • It's about time! by billcopc (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @01:29AM
  • by defile (1059) on Thursday January 10 2002, @03:41AM (#2815243) Homepage Journal

    Own a credit card? How about a driver's license? A checking account? If you answered yes to any of these, you have already sacrificed a significant amount of your privacy for the sake of convenience.

    None of these things are mandatory. You don't have to get a credit card and no one is holding a gun to your head making you drive. Any (and especially all) of those 3 things gives the state an enormous amount of information. They know where you get your money from, what you spend it on, probably where you live, what kind of car you drive, where you got this car, what you do with it, and can practically learn everything about you without ever meeting you in person.

    So, why do we do it? Simple. Try to survive without a credit card. Pretty doable, but it rules out most e-commerce, and makes staying at hotels pretty difficult. No driver's license? Sure, but if you don't live in a city, you're probably fucked without a car.

    No checking account? You're going to have to go far out of your way just to perform basic life functions. You expose yourself to great personal risk by mailing cash (and many companies will flat out refuse it). You have to get money orders for everything, and you could never accept money orders because cashing them requires ID. You'll probably fail most credit checks (which are done for everything nowadays; mobile phones, apartment leases, etc)

    Beginning to see a trend? To function in society, you need to have some degree of accountability. You forfeit quite a lot of your freedom just so you can function. It's no coincidence that many ultra-privacy/paranoid people are drifters.

    Being unknown is entirely your right, but fat lotta good it'll do you. A National ID card is entirely voluntary, so if you want the convenience of speedy airport checkout, you'll do it. And if not, no biggie. Get on the other line.

    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • This is bullshit! by Moondevil (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @05:04AM
  • And how would you fix it? by LaTeXninja (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @05:10AM
  • CorpGovMedia really likes the idea of ,,,, by cryofan2 (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @06:27AM
  • Bruce Schneier on national ID cards by frozenray (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @06:45AM
  • Drink and Drive ... lose your identity !??? by Zero__Kelvin (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @08:02AM
  • I'm no fan of Larry, but... by AlgUSF (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:30AM
    • Nope by Steve B (Score:2) Thursday January 10 2002, @03:16PM
  • Is there freedom out there? by Xrkun (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @09:38AM
  • Change SSN as my license/id number to a random no by painterly (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @12:40PM
  • so how does this benefit me? by maxpublic (Score:1) Thursday January 10 2002, @04:26PM
  • Re:I like this by Breakfast Pants (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:21PM
    • Re:I like this by Dephex Twin (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:24PM
      • Re:I like this by Breakfast Pants (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
        • Re:I like this by aka-ed (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:38PM
      • Re:I like this by aka-ed (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
  • Re:In the worst possble German accent I can manage by SpacePunk (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:24PM
  • Re:Yeah, a license to drive by recursiv (Score:2) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:28PM
  • Re:Yeah, a license to drive by Peyna (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:30PM
  • Re:Vote of no confidence by smack_attack (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:54PM
  • Re:SSN# by giblfiz (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:55PM
  • Re:Good news for all by thogard (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @05:59PM
  • Re:National ID cards by Mojo Geek (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:18PM
  • Re:Orwell by Mojo Geek (Score:1) Wednesday January 09 2002, @06:21PM
  • Already national commercial database (Score:4, Informative)

    by peter303 (12292) on Wednesday January 09 2002, @07:16PM (#2813693)
    The states drivers records databases are collected into a central commerical database already for the purposes of (1) driver insurance (2) car rental screening (3) job application screening (integrity) and (4) general credit screening.
    [ Parent ]
  • 119 replies beneath your current threshold.
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