HP Calculator Department Closing 379
Beans writes "Today is a sad day for the engineering calculator world. HP calculator department is closing. www.calc.org has the scoop. Leaving employees just announced it on comp.sys.hp48. You can check google groups for the original posts."
LCD fun (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, I wouldn't worry about that (Score:2)
No Way! (Score:2)
?Lives Notation Polish Reversed? (Score:4, Funny)
enter
Is
enter
This
enter
+ + +
Re:?Lives Notation Polish Reversed? (Score:3, Informative)
That's not right. (Score:5, Funny)
Reverse Polish Notation Lives
and
This sad is.
Hey, that's almost like English! Makes you wonder.
Re:That's not right. (Score:2)
Re:That's not right. (Score:2)
Re:?Lives Notation Polish Reversed? (Score:2)
Dark days indeed... (Score:4, Interesting)
For me, the 48G was my first exposure to hacking hardware. They had port you could buy (not an option) or build an adaptor - and could use kermit to communicate with it.
Students today have no idea what they are missing when they pull out their TI...
Look at ticalc.org for TI hacks (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Look at ticalc.org for TI hacks (Score:2)
http://www.multimania.com/zdi/
Instructions on building an 8bit sound card for your hp48gx. It fits in the expansion slot, and can play WAV samples directly. Beat that.
Believe me, you can do a lot more hackworthy things with an hp48gx than with any TI out there.
-gleam
Re:Look at ticalc.org for TI hacks (Score:2)
When pushed rapidly or slowly, despite massive consumption of caffeine or lack of sleep of the user, that key was guaranteed to show up in the register.
HP calculators were required when mistakes were not an option.
Re:Look at ticalc.org for TI hacks (Score:2, Interesting)
I guess it would be nice if the TI85s had IR ports and more memory (28k is a little weak) but it was neat at the time.
Now I just use my calc for doing math, blah.
Re:Dark days indeed... (Score:2)
Re:Dark days indeed... (Score:2)
Re:Dark days indeed... (Score:2, Informative)
  RPN stands for Reverse Polish Notation. The short history:
  In the 1920's Polish mathematician (and philosopher) Jan Lukasiewicz developed "Polish Notation" where the operators preceded the arguments. This was in the interest of simplifying symbolic algebra. Later in the 1960's HP found this to be an efficient method of performing calculations and implemented it, but instead had the operators entered after the arguments - hence REVERSE Polish Notation. This allowed intermediate calculation results to be kept on the stack and evaluated later WITHOUT ROUNDOFF ERROR that resulted from copying down the displayed results and entering them later. So not only was this more efficient, it also became a more accurate methodology! Due to the technological limitations of the time, it also allowed full algebraic calculations to be performed.
  You can read a lil more at the following sites: http://www.calculator.org/rpn.html [calculator.org] http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpn.htm [hpmuseum.org] http://www-stone.ch.cam.ac.uk/documentation/rrf/r
  Best of luck going back to school. May you never stop learning!
Marketing part of the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
It is true that the main usage field for HP calculators is engineering and science, but in my opinion HP should have tried to sell more calculators to high school students and schools, because if someone is used to use TIs he is unlikely to switch to HP unless forced (after all, 170$ for an HP49g is not exactly cheap).
It's a pity to see the HP calcs go. Let's hope the HP calculator community keeps being vital.
Re:Marketing part of the problem (Score:2, Insightful)
As for me -- I'm going to go out and buy a 48gx as quickly as possible.
Re:Marketing part of the problem (Score:3, Informative)
Then you get to college and their so afraid people will cheat (by storing notes in their calculators) -- its no calculators for most classes -- and when they're absoultley necessary -- a shitty scientific is allowed
This is how it is at UCR atleast
Re:Marketing part of the problem (Score:2)
Which is why at an increasing number of schools nearly all tests are open-note and open-book. At my school they're actually nearly all take-home as well, though they are timed (you're expected to follow the time requirement on your own, which surprisingly nearly everyone does). This, IMHO, corresponds well to a real-world situation - you have notes and computers/calculators available, but you also need to have enough knowledge to be able to solve the problems in a reasonable period of time without spending 10 hours reading books. [hmc.edu]
Don't forget business! (Score:2)
One of the things I like about the HP is that they use quality keys. They're very stiff and provide great tactile feedback. Not like those little rubber thingys that you wonder if you pushed it in right.
OTOH, I used a friend's HP12c the other day, and was a little surprised at how slow it ran. I was doing an IRR computation, which cannot be solved directly but requires the calc to "plug and chug" a bunch of numbers until it finds the right one. My 10BII solved it in a couple of seconds; the 12c took significantly longer. That may not sound like a big deal, until you consider that the 12c costs more than twice as much, and is one of the best on the market. It tells me that the 12c internals hadn't been refreshed in a long time. (Makes me wonder if closing the calc division hasn't been a long time coming.)
My guess is that the market is too saturated with competitors and the margins are too thin for a "premium quality" calculator to be mass produced at competitive prices.
What a shame. It's like the same situation with keyboards; so many crap keyboards flooded the market in the past decade that its near-impossible to find a decent quality keyboard anymore.
An Incalculable Loss... (Score:2, Funny)
Sorry.
Economics or Preference? (Score:2)
I never could understand the reverse polish notation, but I always thought the IR in the HPs were a much better idea than the physical link cables of the TIs.
Reminds me of a certain UF... (Score:2, Informative)
HP reminds me of DEC (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HP reminds me of DEC (Score:2)
Hmmm. Come to think of it, believe it or not, I am still using my trusty HP-41C that I bought in high school in 1980. Thing works perfectly. The buttons are masterworks of engineering. Absolutely perfect touch and feel and then have lost nothing in 21 years of use (although, to be fair, I don't use it every day).
The only thing that is slightly bad is that the on/off switch sometimes takes a few presses to get it to work. I'm sure some key contact cleaner would fix it, but it's not been annoying enough to have to try it.
HP has gotten more of my money since then -- I own a 16C "Computer Scientist" that I bought sometime in the 80s -- but I feel no huge urge to replace either one. They'll probably outlive me.
Blame Educational Institutions. (Score:5, Insightful)
Come university, I went out and splurged for my 48GX. Although I have yet to take the time to learn all of this beast-of-a-calculater's functionality, I know that if I did I would be even more productive. HP calculators are truly ingenious tools.
One thing I must say though is that I don't think it's fair that some educational institutions *make* students buy other more conventional calculaters. Specially in the fields and engineering and computer science. Students miss out by using the old-fashioned calculator, eg: the TI-8[69?]. Students learn and become dependent on their calculaters as they don't ever learn different ways of attacking the given problem. Blame the schools for not letting their students use a real calculater.
Alas, my 48SX (Score:4, Funny)
Alas.
Very Sad (Score:4, Interesting)
HP-41C's were the best (Score:5, Interesting)
The were some of us hackers who used a backdoor to do "synthetic programming". One trick was to get the goose to fly backwards. Anybody remember that? How many of us have grown up to be linux/unix hackers? I bet most of us . . .
Oh the good old days . . .
Smokin' Joe
Re: (Score:2)
Re:HP-41C's were the best (Score:2)
Indeed. I still have my 1980s vintage 41C calculator that I saved up for in High School. The thing is freakin' indestructible with the greatest keys ever made. And yes, I have my PPC module. :)
Someone Explain! (Score:2, Informative)
sad to hear this (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder if a palm would be a good replacement (Score:5, Interesting)
Lets compare. $179 for a top of the line HP calculator vs $149 for a palm m100 with a todo list, games, calender, alarm, free compilers out on the web, and a scientific calculator sounds like a much better deal. Students need to plan time and the palm could do this as well as be a calculator. Not to mention you can beam programs back and forth with the IR port. A pda is like a calculator on steriods. Its really a mini computer. The only difference is you have virtual buttons on the screen rather then physical ones. Graphing is slow as hell on my TI-85 and I fear IT may harm innovation if they dominate. I do not want TI to dominate the whole calculator market.
Good idea, but there are two problems (Score:3, Insightful)
2.)Speed. Maybe it's just me, but I find I can enter numbers a lot faster on my TI-83+ than I can on my Revo Plus, which has a keyboard, stylus, and a variety of graphics calculator apps which really blow the 83+ out of the water.
Hear hear, snap-on keyboard.. (Score:3, Insightful)
One of the things I wanted to do when my HP48G dies (which might be never) or when I find a broken HP calculator is to figure out how to build a snap on, or maybe a wireless linked, keyboard to the Palm platform. I know it's possible, it just might need a little PIC chip doing the translations. That calculator was always with me through my EE degree, and we used to joke that the engineering jackets used to have oversized inside pockets to store them perfectly.
A palm with the HP keys would be the ultimate. The tactile feedback on the 48GX is incredible and allowed me to "know" I did a calculation right, whereas the other ones and later models TI lacked that positive "thunk" feel.
Anyone wanna send me a busted HP? :)
Re:I wonder if a palm would be a good replacement (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought about trying to emulate the 11C/12C on the Palm, but the 11 keyboard is too large to fit on the screen, without even thinking about the fact that the keys each have three functions on them.
The holistic experience of using one of these fine calculators is just not easy to achieve on a Palm.
I don't care about graphing or solving equations or matrices or playing Quake on my calculator, I just want something with all the mathematical functions I need, plus RPN, that doesn't make me curse. The mid-range HPs are great for me.
Re:I wonder if a palm would be a good replacement (Score:2)
There are several calculators you can get. I have had RPN [nthlab.com], one of the best ones, for years. The latest version of RPN has graphing features!
One person noted screen real-estate limitations. RPN works around these by having two key areas: the bottom area has the most commonly-used keys, and always looks the same; the top area has remappable keys. There is a pick-list you use to choose which function set the top keys will be right now. Doing metric conversions? Choose the conversions keyset. Doing stats? Choose the statistical functions keyset. Have some weird project? Define your own keyset.
There are situations where a good HP calculator is exactly what you want... but I always have my Visor Deluxe with me anyway, so I pretty much always use it when I want a calculator.
steveha
Re:I wonder if a palm would be a good replacement (Score:2, Insightful)
I showed one of my professors the Computer Algebra System on my HP49g earlier this semester. Not only did it symbolically solve an integral that would have otherwise required a mastery of integration by parts to solve on paper, but it also showed all the intermediate steps that could be copied down on paper. It caused him a small paradigm shift.
In a day and age where handheld PC's can have wireless network cards, one has to wonder how accepting university professors are going to be of these new technologies. All you need is a page scanner to feed the book through and a PDF reader in the handheld, and a student could potentially have access to the entire text for the class while taking the test with his "calculator."
Re:I wonder if a palm would be a good replacement (Score:3, Informative)
There is a comparison page on geekazoid about various Palm calculators, RPN and otherwise. [geekazoid.com]
It should be a good indication of the excellent design and utilty of the HP calculators that it has been so imitated... Of course, some of that has to do with the sturdy hardware- it is quite remarkable what can be done to an HP calc and still have it work perfectly...
this is _sad_ news. (Score:2)
Goddamn.
What of the software in those calculators? (Score:5, Interesting)
Somebody already asked about a Palm Pilot being a suitable replacement (er, successor). There are certainly scientific calculator apps for Palm Pilots and similar devices, and there are already hp calculator emulators in various states of functionality for various platforms.
I wonder what HP is going to do with the many years of development that went into the roms and downloadable software that we've all come to know and love. Would Bruce Perens be able to swing an open source release so that the hp calcs can live on? And if that were to happen, what would be the best way to make use of such software? Would a Palm Pilot with perhaps a native port of a 49G rom be feasible? A strongarm port? A transmeta-based super-calc?
By the way, I still have my 28s somewhere, my 48GX was stolen, and I have a 49G right here next to my keyboard. At least I'll have it to show to my grandkids, or something like that.
rpn on ti89 (Score:3, Interesting)
However, to my original point, the TI 89, (which the HP 49 was built to compete with) uses RPN internally. Every time you evaluate an expression on the TI 89 command line it is run through a parser that tokenizes it into RPN statements that end up on the expressions stack. It would be very easy to write an assembly program to provide an interface similar to the visual representation of the stack present on the 48/49. It would be even easier to write such a program using tigcc. In fact, to do symbolic manipulation using tigcc you have to feed all the data into the expressions stack then process it in RPN. The fact that the TI89 uses flash technology means you could add this functionality permanently to the calculator's featurelist. This would be a fun program to write if someone wanted to give it a shot, and all you'd really be doing is taking out the middleman.
Re:rpn on ti89 (Score:2, Interesting)
You'll find it here [perez-franco.com]
http://www.perez-franco.com/symbulator/download/r
Calculator Competitions (Score:2, Interesting)
I hated it in college when they wouldn't let me use it on tests because it was "programmable". It takes me at least twice as long to do anything on an infix calculator.
HP and my 11c (Score:3, Informative)
I've been using my 11c since around 1987 (I actually got a second one in 1989, but it croaked about two years ago). It's been my favorite calculator since I got it. I've owned lots of calculators, including a casio 8700g, a TI-89, and my current HP48-gx. They're all fine, but I use my 11c more than anything else (I can do almost everything faster with it). Without any text entry/dispaly, it can do most everything I require on a daily basis; it can be programmed (203 steps, 4-level subroutine depth) to do more complex tasks, has more storage than I normally need (21 locations). It doesn't look fancy (no LCD matrix), so it could fool any of my math teachers into thinking it was an 'ordinary' calculator (now remember this was '87, and it had already been out for 6 years). It is by far and away the most useful single (i.e. never replaced) piece of electronics that I use on a daily basis. HP you have served me well, and will be missed (from the calculator business). I don't know what I will do when this HP-11 dies. Maybe I should keep a lookout on ebay.
A great resource on older HP calculators can be found at: http://www.hpmuseum.org
TI (Score:2, Insightful)
But I will miss Reverse Polish Notation. It's funny to see the look on peoples faces when you loan them an HP cause they forgot their calculator and there's a test in 5 minutes.
This article may be misleading (Score:5, Informative)
HP is not ceasing the production of calculators. Instead, HP has shut down the department that develops new calculators.
This is nothing unusual. In the mid-1990's, HP already effectively shut down calculator development for several years.
The manufacture of calculators is completely separate from the development, and production will continue.
HP28S - Engineering Powertool (once upon a time) (Score:2, Interesting)
My HP28S _STILL_ enjoys a place of respect, even if changing the batteries is a pain in the ass (and it uses an odd size too) and even if all I do with it now is basic math/trig/etc. I don't need the powertool for what I used it for since I'm now a software engineer, but I still can't use normal calculators - RPN has spoiled me.
RPN has got to be one of the most sensible ways to do things for anyone who ever understood computer systems - stack operations just make so much sense!
But alas, RPN hurts the heads of the mass of the uninitiated or the uninformable. And so, a legend of quality goes to the boneyard. People would rather have the sub-capable alleged "calculators" on the Palm100 (what a piece of crap) than have something that can _really_ do complicated math (even complex math and convolutions and all sorts of neat stuff) with brutal speed. I guess that's probably because math (the kind done by people, rather than expensive software packages) is largely a dying art.
Ah, the memories.... the first time I heard someone play all of Star Wars from the HP... the first time I aced a mid-term because my calculator reduced the mindless number crunching to a manageable task.... the first time I encountered complex numbers because the HP spit back an odd result (x,y) and the y part was the complex component.
Sad day indeed.
Re:HP28S - Engineering Powertool (once upon a time (Score:2)
BTW, does anyone know if this is the only item to use these types of batteries? I hope not or else we will have to do something drastic to use them.
Re:HP28S - Engineering Powertool (once upon a time (Score:2)
This is scary. I have an HP28S, but I am afraid of what to do if it ever dies.
Me three. Indeed, my 28S is showing signs of its age. The plastic battery door is gone, but the metal part is still there, so it still works. It's more precarious, though. More distressingly, somethings come a little bit detached on the right side keyboard, so that the faceplate is a little bit loose and occasionally the keys bounce. But I'd be very very sad if I had to do without this, or some other HP.
I've had this thing since 1988. One of the best Christmas presents I ever got.
-Rob
Re:HP28S - Engineering Powertool (once upon a time (Score:2)
Re:HP28S - Engineering Powertool (once upon a time (Score:2)
My 28S was the very first purchase I made on the first credit card I got back in university. Lots of money to shell out for someone fresh out of high school (back in 1988), but after an engineer friend of mine showed me his, I had to have one.
It's been the only calculator I've ever needed ever since, and still serves me faithfully, although I don't have the occasion to use it quite as often as I used to. I've heard people complain about the clamshell form factor, but it's the toughest and most durable calculator I've ever seen. I had a bit of a scare a few years back when I pulled it out and discovered the batteries had leaked all over it. Thankfully, cleaning off the battery contacts brought it back to life.
My brother got himself a 48GX a few years ago, and was bragging about it, but I could still calculate circles around him with my 28S.
BTW, the 28S currently exists as a financial calculator in the HP line.
HP should GPL calculator ROMs (Score:2)
Re:You're late (Score:2)
They had to wait... (Score:3, Interesting)
Nothing to do with calculators (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I cryed when I heard this (Score:2)
HP is no longer a job for life
HP no longer does the R&D
HP no longer has the guts to just go for it
read history and see whats comeing
regards
john jones
HP-35 -- The Original (Score:2)
Google - Cache and SOME comments of my own (Score:2, Informative)
It is very unfortunate that this story linked directly to www.calc.org. They have been having server troubles for a few weeks now, and getting slashdotted doesn't help. At the moment, www.calc.org is the only (TI) calculator website with a decent archive. www.ticalc.org [ticalc.org] (by far the largest archive) took it's archives offline because of some 'bad content' which stems from the CD that they made in conjunction with texas instruments.
The ti community could use some help right about now...
Greg www.geocities.com/gdietsche/ [geocities.com]
and yes... Gravity still works! (and some times that can be problematic)
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:hang on a minute... (Score:2, Interesting)
HP10C (Score:2, Insightful)
Best wishes,
Bob
Quick... which one do I buy? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention the fact that I'm not even sure where to buy an HP calculator. The few places I've looked just have Casio's and TI's. Didn't Wal-Mart used to sell some HP's at least?
Re:Quick... which one do I buy? (Score:3, Informative)
48GX - IR and a card slots (to add memory, or buy cards with things such as chemistry, etc.)
48G+ - Same as GX, but cheaper but no card slot. Best bet for just about anybody since it's only $83.
Check out this online reseller [wholesaleproducts.com]. It's the cheapest I've found when I briefly looked around. It's where I bought my HPGX 4 years ago for $213. It's amazing how prices have gone down.
Re:Quick... which one do I buy? (Score:2, Informative)
The 32SII is about $50, and is simply a marvel. It's small enough to fit in my pocket, and is programmable! I carry it everywhere. The only quibble I have with it is the four element stack (there are some tricks you can use with short stacks, but I'm not enough of an RPN wizard to employ them.)
If you want to get a HP calculator, by all means get an RPN one. It's a very efficient system, even if it takes some getting used to (GNU Calc [gnu.org] is a great HP calculator emulator, you might want to check it out first.)
Re:Quick... which one do I buy? (Score:3, Informative)
Its worth noting... (Score:2, Troll)
I would find it a real pain in the ass to have to learn even the HP way of entering in simple algebra....Of course, I'm not saying that HP shouldn't keep making calculators, but there are a lot of people complaining that TIs are cheap crappy imitations, and for most people thats just not the case.
Re:Its worth noting... (Score:3, Informative)
With RPN you will never have to use bracketed notation. The stack can very easily take care of all of that. You simply work across the rows of fractions and functions, nomatter how complex of bracketed it might be to write down. This is the beauty of RPN.
It just happen that it maps across to hardware and a stack much easier than any other system and that's why HP orignally went with RPN.
Re:Its worth noting... Unbelievable... (Score:2)
Parent posting is Insightful!?!?, If you haven't even used the both calculator, how can you comment on 'the HP way of entering simple algebra'
Open your mind... You should never be afraid to try something new... In HS, I too laughed at the bizarre RPN that was used by HP calculators, but as I continued studies in college, I gave RPN a chance, and found that it was definitely with the learning curve. Problems in Engineering and Physics were much easier with the HP then they would have been on a traditional calculator.
Once you get into industry, are you going to tell your manager, no I don't want to learn to do that, it seems like a pain in the ass?
HP-41CV Rules (Score:3, Informative)
Recently, I needed to buy a calculator for my daughter. The school specified a certain TI model. So I bought her a Hewlett-Packard calculator. I refuse to let the school dictate what companies I will do business with. Besides, TI calculators are junk.
Re:HP-41CV Rules (Score:2)
Can't say I'll miss them (Score:2)
So much history... (Score:2, Interesting)
That year for xmas, after everything was open, and we were milling around the house, my mom told me there was one other present under the tree. I could have died when I got the wrapper off. I taught myself to program with that calculator. I would spend hours sitting around and write games for it, learning to convert bases, it got me into learing math that my teachers were never able to get me interested in. It set the course for my life as an engineer. It wasn't until years later that I was able to get on a computer, and learn to do anything more.
A few years ago, I was in a pinch, and sold my 41C on Ebay. I felt like shit after it was gone. So much time, so much passion went into that little box of electronics. I have had other HPs since then, up though the 48s. No matter what they do to the HP calcs, there will always be a warm spot in my heart for them. I doubt I would be where I am now without them.
Thanks HP!
I remember.... (Score:2)
Use of Fancy Calculators Declining? (Score:3, Interesting)
I still own 2 programmable calculators myself and use them with some regularity, but it must be more than 10 years since I last programmed a programmable calculator. It seems to me that by the time I would bother to write a calculator program for a task, I'm sufficiently out of the spontaneous use space of calculators that I might just as well sit down at a real computer and use a spreadsheet or perl or C for the job.
Is there anybody here who really writes and/or uses programs for programmable calculators on a daily basis?
Hand me my sliderule, junior! (Score:2, Funny)
Linux on an HP calculator (Score:3, Funny)
MyCalc%> mv file1 file2
error: argument missing
MyCalc%> file1 file2 mv
MyCalc%> cat
cut: error: argument "|" is invalid
(I was going to re-write that in RPN, but I can't even figure out how pipelining would work--so forget it)
Memories of HP Calculators ... (Score:2, Interesting)
A few years later, I brought my first HP calculator - an HP34C, I think - I used it when I first started my first job as a Structural Engineer. Some ten years later, I sold the HP34C to a 'serious HP collector' in Australia. I hope it still working hard for him too.
A succession of employers have given me HP's for my daily work, mainly HP41 variants. They were all quality machines that provided years of solid service under heavy use.
I fondly remember the HP11C(?) that the Surveyors lost when being chased by a dog. They got it back the next day - from the offending dogs kennel - by a clever diversionary tactic. The dog had been chewing the calculator overnight, and teeth marks were clearly visible on the aluminium band. And the calculator? Well it's still in daily use.
I'm going to miss HP calculators
Waitaminnit... (Score:2)
What gives?
Re:Waitaminnit... (Score:3, Informative)
HP is going to hell in a handbasket. They have sold or spun off all of the divisions that made HP's reputation in the first place.
Love my 48GX, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
I have to say, though, that the HP49 is some kind of utter nightmare. It's as if HP turned its back on all of the good things that evolved over the years and decided that Texas Instruments was the holy grail or something. While the calculator is quite powerful, I find that it's useability is just horrendous and the calculator is actually slower than both the HP49GX and the TI92Plus. In fact, nobody that I know in academia or in engineering gives the 49 a passing glance.
Nonetheless, everyone is entitled to a mistake, I guess. On the other hand, HP has made a significant marketing mistake by not grabbing the hearts and minds of students. Texas Instruments is the king in that regard, if only because of their academic program that gives teachers calculators free of charge based on the number of TI calculators that their students use.
Amazingly, Hewlett Packard has the single largest corporate site in their organization here in Boise, Idaho, yet you'll find that the dominant calculator in use (by far) at the local university is the TI. Why? Because TI gives calculators to the faculty free of charge if their students use enough of them. What is the dominant brand of calculator in the university's bookstore? Yep, TI. And this is from a university that has the 7th best public engineering program in the nation. And is just 10 miles from a huge HP campus. Go figure.
Still, I'll be sad to see them go. But I wouldn't blame Fiorina for the loss...I think it's been a long time coming.
-h-
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:2, Insightful)
I am extremely satisfied with my TI-89. Note, however, that I have not used, extensively, an HP calculator. I've heard great things about them, but you know what: MY 89 IS FINE. It gets the job done, and quite well, if you ask me. I've never had a problem with it (aside from the "feet" falling off), and I am impressed by the enormous number of functions that come built into the OS.
I really should not have said what I said above, as I am sure HP calculators are great, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the TI line. My friends use them, and I use them. They work wonders for us.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Funny)
I really should not say anything bad about Unix, as I am sure Unix machines are great, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Windows line. My friends use them, and I use them. They work wonders for us.
Also, I would like to tell you how extremely satisfied I am with my McDonald's hamburger. Note, however, that I have not eaten, often, steak...
between sharp, TI, and casio (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't discount TI so quickly (Score:2, Interesting)
One thing though, we were once dealing with a real bugger of an equation, and to solve for variables on the "wrong" side of it, he just had us put as many numbers in it as possible to crunch some of the algebra out of it and then solve. One student asked him about changing it around, and he said he did it by hand a few years ago and it took him eight sheets of paper and about two hours. I did it on my TI-92+ sitting there in class in about five minutes.
He couldn't help but be impressed.
My point is that the HP croud acts so stuck up sometimes that they can't admit that some TI calculators have some really neat featurs. It's not a Chevy vs Ferrari debate, it's more like Chevy vs Ford. I'll agree though, all TI calculators except the 92* and 89s suck ass.
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:3, Interesting)
It might surprise many people to know that HP's most recent calculator offering, the HP49G, uses a 4 MHz Saturn processor. This is a 4-bit (yes, 4-bit) processor that was originally introduced (at a blazing 0.64 MHz) to support the HP71B calculator in 1984.
A friend of mine showed me his HP28C calculator in 1987. This was the first of the HP calculators to support symbolic manipulation of expressions; I remember being impressed not only at the power of the calculator but the careful thought that had gone into its design of its user interface. I didn't learn until much later that this was all being done using a processor that was underpowered even by the standards of the day.
It turned out that a lot of the power was due to the work of a team assembled by Bill Wickes, then a physics professor at the University of Maryland. He'd purchased an earlier calculator, the HP41C, and had discovered a bug that allowed him access to the calculator's machine code. It didn't take long for folks to become conversant in this "synthetic programming," which allowed people to do things with the HP41C that the calculator's designers never intended.
HP was first and foremost an engineering organization at that point, so they hired him (the fact that the DMCA didn't yet exist also prevented them from suing him into oblivion) to design the next generation of calculators, which included the HP28C, HP28S, and the HP48 series. Development stopped in the mid 1990s for a while, but the current Australia-based group led by Jean-Yves Avenard and Gerald Squelart have continued to develop miraculously functional software for surprisingly limited hardware.
The capabilities of modern hardware have advanced so quickly that it's much easier to miss the beauty of small, quick, functional code. It's easier to write big, bloated code--and let the hardware make up for the resulting inefficiency.
Now I run into occasions where the user interface for the operating system (never mind the underlying application) on a Pocket PC that's based on a 206 MHz StrongARM 32-bit processor. While I wouldn't want to roll back the clock on hardware performance, I hope that the art of writing fast, lean code doesn't become an unintended victim of progress.
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:2)
For banging up some numbers to get an answer, RPN is indeed faster once you get the hang of it. But for careful work, it is better to have standard notation and a history of commands. Suppose the expression you are trying to evaluate has many terms. It is much better to enter each term into the calculator (in standard notation) and get a result. You then have a list of things you typed, and the responses from the calculator. With RPN you don't get this. Having the history helps with tracking down errors, and with keeping the entire problem in your head. Being able to go back and edit previous terms is wonderful, and you can't do that with RPN.
Re:Let me be the first to say... (Score:2)
Re:There are no equals... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What else would happen (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:= key same as enter (Score:3, Informative)
Try (5 + 3) * (6 + 1).
TI: 5 + 3 = * ( 6 + 1 ) =
HP: 5 E 3 + 6 E 1 + *
Assuming my TI keystrokes are correct (I haven't
used one for 20 years), that's two less keystrokes
for this simple example.
RPN more intuitive (Score:2, Insightful)
When I'm solving a real-world problem, usually I have the numbers (or you look them up when you need them), then I need to put them together semi-interactively. You look at the number on the screen, decide what the next step is, then do it.
RPN let's you type the number in, then decide what to do with it as you go. Algebraic/TI notation is only really useful when you've got a long formula on the page, and you want to read it left-to-right, parentheses and all, and just hit = at the end.
That happens a lot when you are a student who is just grinding through textbook problems, but hardly ever happens when you are thinking on your feet.
The levels of precendence used in the algebraic system are based on rules that make it easy to read equations on paper. There is no intrinsic reason why multiplication is higher precendence than addition, it just happens in practice to be most legible to write equations that way. When you're dealing with numbers, trying to get other numbers, the RPN stack let's you do things with the precendence that works best for thinking through the problem. APL has even a screwier behavior than RPN, but people who use it (I don't) swear it makes solving problems easier.
Re:HP sucks (Score:2)
Re:RPN is a lazy programmers shortcut. (Score:2)
Hard to use? Either you are joking or have never used an HP calculator. They are a joy to use. The only reason someone didn't have an HP in engineering college was that they hadn't saved up enough to buy one yet.