Chief Lizard Wrangler axed

Kalak writes: "MozillaQuest is reporting that Mitchell Baker was laid off by Netscape back on August 23. True to form, there are also discussions on this on bug #96747." She spoke at OSCON and I was pretty impressed. She seemed legitimately committed to the mozilla project being a successful open source project. Not sure how this bodes for Moz itself, but it sure is unfortunate.

Accurate information here

Mozillazine [mozillazine.org] has information about it here [mozillazine.org]. MozillaQuest [mozillaquest.com] is and has been unreliable. See MozillaQuestQuest [mozillaquestquest.com] for more information.

Re:Accurate information here

Contradiction coming... wait for it...

For all the flaming of MozillaQuest by the [...] late, buggy, and ugly Mozilla project [and] its small remaining core of advocates [...]
[snipped from the beginning and end of the post to show the contrast in tone]

This is called flaming. MozillaQuest is factually inaccurate from time to time (though, so is the rest of the tech media). The problem isn't that. The problem is that MozillaQuest reports only part of the story. This story, for example, never reported that, while she was being laid off, she was also going to continue working on the project.

So called "delays" are often clarifications in the time-line (where no dates were previously available). This may or may not be an inaccuracy, depending on how you look at it, but is clearly a misrepresentation of the state of Mozilla development.

Mozilla is, for the record, the browser/mail agent that I've been using as my sole browser for the last six months. So far, I've had less crashes than IE, and far fewer bug-related complaints than with NS4. And yet, according to MozillaQuest, Mozilla is still too buggy for anyone to use....

Where is she going?

Is there any information on where she is going? In a perfect world, one of the Linux companies would hire her to keep working on Mozilla.

Re:Where is she going?

According to her reply [mozilla.org] to the Bugzilla post, she will continue to work on the Mozilla project, just not under the employ of Netscape.

Hey, she can still work on it

This is OpenSource. She can still work on it just without pay, and on her own time. This is not good, most certainly, but hey, at least she isn't stricken from contributing.

MozillaQuest not to be trusted

In general it is good practice to avoid reading this website if you're interested in accurate reporting about Mozilla or mozilla.org (probably anyhing else for that matter). With articles like "Netscape Denies It Uses Mozilla Code in Netscape 6.1" you have to wonder...

Anyway, if you want real information about what's going on why not ask the folks actually involved. Mitchell Baker (still chief lizard wrangler) had this [google.com] to say in the mozilla news groups.

Please don't link to bugzilla from the front page!

CmdrTaco et al,

Please don't link directly to a bugzilla bug ever again, at least not from the front page. The system is under constant use by bug reporters, triagers, and developers, who are all working hard to make the 0.9.4 milestone happen as fast as possible. /.'ing the server only serves to disrupt development. In the future, please think about the people who are relying on a particular server before targetting it for destruction. Thanks.

Re:Please don't link to bugzilla from the front pa

I know this is redundant to a post I made below, but I put up a mirror here:

http://www.necrosys.net/mirrors/bug_96747.html [necrosys.net]

Layoffs!

That explains why we haven't seen 0.9.4 yet...

Layoffs are unfortunate, but normal business

So far there doesn't seem to be too much Netscape bashing going on here, which is a good thing. Layoffs are part of the normal business cycle. It's part of the price we pay for the great job motility we've enjoyed in the tech industry in recent years.

The nice thing about an open source project, however, is that someone can move between companies and still contribute. They can even take a break from a project and then come back.

Don't Look At Bugzilla!

Please don't slashdot our Bugzilla server! Please! We need it, and currently it's dying.

Gerv

How this bodes for the Mozilla project

This question was raised in the posting, but it begs a deeper question. Are OSS Projects dependant on their founder?. The imediate reaction is no, expecially in this case where she was not the founder. The closes to a single indevidual founder we could get for Mozilla would be Jamie Zawinski [jwz.org] and the project continued on without him, but how many OSS projects are organized as a cult on personality? Is this a failing of social order of OSS, or is it just a failing of leadership and administration?

Large scale projects like Mozilla, and Apache could probably withstand a complete changing of the guard, but how many smaller prjects could handle such a change and still continue to produce quality software?

Does anyone have a mechanism to quantify the critical mass of an OSS project?

--CTH

Not Netscape - AOL

Am I the only one that thinks it's worth mentioning that there is no Netscape any more? There's only the Netscape Division of America Online. AOL laid her off. Not Netscape.

I'm starting to sound like JWZ...

Please stop clicking that bug link!

There are people trying to get work done in Bugzilla and you're making that very difficult. Thanks.

--Asa

MozillaQuest?

Why does /. continue to propagate the anti-Mozilla rants from Michael Angelo? He is not even close to a viable source of information on Mozilla. See bug 97146 [mozilla.org], as well as previous /. posts that say just what I said.

Please, please. Don't feed the trolls.

godd*mit!

GET THAT LINK TO BUGZILLA OUT OF THE STORY, EDITORS!

There's nothing relevant or terribly useful at all at the link, and SomeOfUsAreTryingToWORK!

(calming down a little)

Revise the story, please!!!!!!

Some more info

Some karma whoring..

From an Asa article [mozillazine.org] at mozillazine.org: " Mitchell Baker's post on her current situation involving Netscape and mozilla.org [google.com]"

To all the mozilla people: continue the great work, all you rock!

Best regards

Uriel

AOL Deathblow?

Please excuse my thoughts of a potential conspiracy theory here. Given the significance of AOL (Netscape) developers to the Mozilla project and the lay off of a (significant?) number of employees, including lead developers, to Mozilla, it seems to me AOL is attempting to kill Mozilla. Why else would AOL make such a move? I mean, what other result would come from this by not continuing support of Mozilla? (eh, 'mozilla is available for download' is not significant support imo).

The motive? Who knows. Recently, though, AOL and Microsoft were engaged in intense negotiations regarding the inclusion of AOL in Windows XP.

Re:AOL Deathblow?

No, no, no.

The conspiracy theory is about half right.

AOL wants to keep Mozilla waiting in the wings as a potential threatening poker chip in its negotiations with MS about desktop icon placement, default MSN services, whether AOL will pursue the legal complaints that Netscape originally filed, etc.

These negotiations pivot about various points, such as whether AOL will use IE or Netscape, whose streaming media format they will support, etc. As such, the poker chips in this game can be quite important and valuable because the game is for such very high stakes.

The Netscape/Mozilla browser represents a bugaboo to MS for two reasons.

1. As a ghost of a vanquished enemy that could be brought back to life to challenge IE if suddenly AOL were to release tens of millions of CDs with a working Mozilla on it.
   
2. The same ghost carries with it the wounds it suffered during the famous Air Supply Cutoff that the Dept of Justice is so intent upon examining. Rather than have AOL with a well funded legal department display the corpse for all to see, it is better to lay flowers on that grave and not upset the status quo.
   

The upshot is that Mozilla is an excellent poker chip where it stands now, getting preened but not quite ready for prime time. It serves AOL's purpose well in keeping the beast of Redmond at bay.

If the Mozilla poker chip were actually played, either releasing it for general widespread use or using its legal status to beat up MS in the courts, then a lot of blood and fur would fly. Not a business decision that they want or need right now.

Kind of like the book and movie Shogun, if you recall the end, where Lord Toranaga keeps Anjin-san building dangerous ships to keep his adversaries at bay, but secretly Lord Toranaga burns the ships when they are in danger of becoming a full fledged reality.

MozillaQuest

Oh god, when will people learn; MozillaQuest is not a reliable source for Mozilla development information!

I'm so tired of this. All the major geek news sites like this one keeps posting new references to this very misinforming site.

Please boycott it. I know I will.

Thanks for keeping us from working.

Just wanted to say thanks for keeping us from working with our main tool, Bugzilla. I hope we don't have to suffer this again in the future.

-Fabian.

The fallout begins????

I wondered if something like this wouldn't be far behind the announcement that Netscape isn't "doing" browsers anymore. A lot of speculation about future fallout was bandied about in this Slashdot discussion [slashdot.org]. It seems like the chips are beginning to fall. I guess we'll see where they all land.

I can see the new MozillaQuest headlines now

"Mozilla milestone 0.9.4 delayed again: due to a large conspiricy, the slashdot community decided to kill of mozilla's bugzilla server, completely stoping all work on the branch".

In related news, from the bugzilla 2.5.1 Changelog:
* Added a slashdot effect filter, if HTTP_REFER = '*slashdot.org', show a 404 page.

Bugzilla Mirror - Use this instead.

http://www.necrosys.net/mirrors/bug_96747.html [necrosys.net]

Don't kill bugzilla.mozilla

no good for slashdot

Slash dot has made mistakes 1- Linking to the one of the most horrible designed web site ever (mozillaquest) 2- Not ignoring that site, although many times it was explained nicely from Mozilla workers why this site cant be the source for Mozilla project, and yet there is real info in mozillazine.org 3- Sadly, by linking to the Bugzilla directly. Today was an important day because 0.9.4 was ready to go. Now who knows when bugzilla will work again. deliberately bombing one of the gratest open source project ever. i am likely to believe slashdot likes magazine conspiracy rather than reality. PS: For God's sake who will listen Wrangler??

DeCSS code found embedded in Mozilla source code!

Gill Bates [mailto] writes: "According to this bugtraq report [randombugtraqlink.org] a rogue Mozilla programmer has inserted illegal DVD descrambling code into the freely-distributable Mozilla browser source code. Is there any question now whether open-source software is dangerous to intellectual property?

That should keep those Mozilla folks busy awhile. Who needs to script up some virus to take over broadband computers to send DDOS attacks at targets when you can just link to a website in a /. submission?

Seriously, isn't it time that Slashdot start mirroring some of these web pages that they kill via the /. effect? This could have easily been saved on the /. servers and then linked to without kiling the bugtraq servers over there.

MozillaQuest for eradication...

Does anyone have the scoop as to why Mike Angelo hates Mozilla so much? Was a contribution burned? Did they decide to use someone else's ideas instead of his? Is he just having a permanent "that-time-of-the-month"?

I ask this because he is not forthcoming on his own information. That, and his site is very, very misleading. Do not be fooled the "we asked" or "we investigated" lines. This is the pursuit of one person.

Also, almost all of this individual's "articles" are taken from the Bugzilla entries and Mozilla mainsite postings. They have little foundation in actual fact.

Now, I myself am not involved in the day-to-day of Mozilla and Netscape, but I follow the direction of this project closely, since the technologies being developed here (mainly XUL and XPCOM) can have a dramatic effect on the future of my employers (sorry, I cannot go into much detail here). I keep updated from the mailing lists, and from MozillaZine [mozillazine.org] and The lizard farm [mozilla.org].

I very rarely ever head over to MozillaQuest. The reason: most of the "articles" are factually incorrect. take for instance the article on "Mozilla 0.9.2.1 released". If all you ever do is read MozillaQuest, you'd think there was this tremendous conspiracy going on between Mozilla and Netscape. But a quick perusal of Mozilla and/or MozillaZine shed actual light on the subject: The 0.9.2.1 release is 95-99% equivalent to Netscape 6.1, and is being provided for developers to test and debug their XUL/XPCOM/Plug-ins/skins/etc.. against for Netscape 6.1 compatibility.

MozillaQuest is fiction, with enough truth to make it sound legitimate. If you want the real scoop, head over to MozillaZine [mozillazine.org]. Don't waste time at MozillaQuest.

Other mysterious happenings...

When Mozilla is finished with the branch it is likely that a major vendor will take over and maintain that branch working toward a commercial release. [mozillazine.org]

Does anybody have any clues as to who this mysterious major vendor is? It's pretty obvious that the insiders at Mozilla.org are under NDA or something like that.

The timing of this makes me wonder if maybe Mitchell isn't going to some other Mozilla related company. Even if not, I think it's interesting that the "commercial" Mozilla community is growing beyond just AOL. It makes for a healthier project.

What's next, using the National Enquirer?

Didn't you learn from the last time? Using MozillaQuest as a news source is like using the National Enquirer. If you dig deep enough you might find a kernel of truth, but most of it is sensationalist, wildly inaccurate crap. This is the site that claimed Netscape 6.1 was not based on Mozilla code, includes things like duplicates and feature requests when counting the number of "bugs," and somehow manages to skew every bit of news, whether positive or negative, to make it evidence of Mozilla's demise/irrelevance/uselessness/etc.

If you want straight-forward news (including the real story about Mitchell Baker), check out MozillaZine [mozillazine.org] instead. They may not update the site as frequently, but it's generally news from people who are actually involved with the project, and it's a hell of a lot more accurate (one advantage of waiting until you have real information instead of making up your own).

New threat to the internet

-PAFP
September 5 2001, 4:54 AM
It has been discovered that a new and mysterious underground hacker-website called the "Slash Dot" has developed a powerful & destructive cyberweapon. Sources say that by "hyper linking" to a government or industry webserver, the Slash Dottors can destroy the victom's operations for days at a time. A recipient of a hyper link attack this Wednesday was the site called "Mozillabug", a massive technological service used by thousands of businesses to obtain free program "code". FBI spokespeople were unavailable to comment, it is believed a presumably insane collegue died of laughing upon hearing about this new internet security threat.
Industry leader Microsoft Corp [MSFT] has recomended users perchase their new Windows XP operating system in order to take advantage of their new innovation: a firewall. Firewalls are believed to protect users against all internet security threats, but Microsoft spokespeople were unable to elaborate due to lack of knowledge in the subject.
Meanwhile, reports are coming in that members of the Slash Dot called "Anonymous Cowists" are posting the phrase "Hacked By Chinese" on message boards all over the internet. British MPs have claimed in Parliament that reading those messages can cause keyboards to emit green haze.

Joe Bloggs, PAFP news.

Taco has a strategy here

It must be that Taco decided we already have enough news today, and didn't want another Mozilla story on top of this one - so he posted the link to Bugzilla, bringing it down and preventing 0.9.4 from being released. How deviously clever.

Either that or he's just stupid (this evidence is supported by the fact that he keeps posting links to MozillaQuest) and had no idea his idiocy would singlehandedly set back the release of 0.9.4.

How pervasive are the layoffs?

This is sad news, but I was waiting to hear it once it was made public that AOL was laying off workers.

As a Mozilla fan, I'm really curious how many Netscape/Mozilla contributors got the axe. Is this an isolated thing, or is the project in jeopardy? Can anyone with this info contribute it here, even anonymously?

Alas, dear Taco...

...trolling for posts again, are we?

And now it's links to MozillaQuest.

For shame, Taco, for shame.

Or have you none?

t_t_b

Copy of bugzilla 96727 from mozilla [now blocked]

Mozilla have now set-up a redirect back to /. from their bugzilla server. Here's a copy of the bug report:

On behalf of OEone Corporation, I see this as a major bug to the Mozilla open
source project.

Mitchell demonstrated a strong commitment to leading Mozilla.org to deliver a
high quality, open source, and open standards browser that was nonpartisan to
Netscape or any other single interest group. She supported the evolution of a
developer community within and without the Netscape organization.

From the perspective of a Mozilla "partner" on the outside, we valued the
continual efforts she made to connect us with other developers, business people,
and open source advocates throughout the world. She was truly a champion for
Mozilla and community by which it was built.

We are OEone are regretful that Mitchell Baker has left Netscape and
Mozilla.org. She will be missed.

------- Additional Comments From Peter Bojanic 2001-08-28 11:22 -------

Endico recommended I add a few folks to the cc list.

------- Additional Comments From Asa Dotzler 2001-09-02 20:07 -------

news://news.mozilla.org:119/3B8D621F.3030903@bad ub adu.com

------- Additional Comments From Gervase Markham 2001-09-05 09:44 -------

Changing summary from:
"Mitchell Baker is gone from mozilla.org"
to
"Mitchell Baker is gone from Netscape"
which is correct. Mitchell is not gone from mozilla.org. See the above newsgroup
post.

Gerv

Oh for Homer's sake

They actually created a bug for this?????

(ot) internet explorer bug

i know it seems extremely out of place to post this here... but you were forewarned.

anyway, using winMe and ie6, clicking on the mozilla bug link on the front page reloads the slashdot front page with the form info tagged on to the end. has anyone else encountered this?

bug #96747 -- http://slashdot.org/?id=96747

this happens even though the link on the page points explicitly to the mozilla domain. clicking on the same link on the comments page loads the correct mozilla page

Mitchell Baker coment

You can read Mitchell Baker coment on the subject here [google.com].

Re:So? -- Sorry, you are mistaken

Konqueror is based on KHTML which is completely different from Gecko. This is why Konqueror has been progressing much quicker than Mozilla since it is not limited by the Mozilla development cycle.

Re:So?

Konqueror is based on Gecko

No it isn't. Konqueror is no relation to Gecko.

Yeah, I guess they noticed the effect already ;-)

*sigh*

remind me to post the link to my site on slashdott

remind me to post the link to my site on slashdotthe next time i want my hit counter to raise to 1,000,000

Re:Konqueror Works Fine

Why do people continue to post comments about how Konqueror rocks?

The people in the Mozilla work hard at developing Mozilla and we're glad that you like Konqueror but dont keep telling us this.

We continue to work at Mozilla to make it the best browser possible which it will be quite soon despite the naysayers out there. Konqueror is fine for what it does, a web browser but in a corporate environment or someone who does lots of crossplatform work (like myself) Mozilla is a godsend.

The Mozilla development cycle will *ALWAYS* be slower then Konqueror or any other browser. Why? because it compiles on almost every platform out there. It compiles on IRIX, SunOS/Solaris, Linux, *BSD, Windows, Mac, Mac OS X, BeOS, and many others.There is even a working port for QNX for godsakes.

For people who need a little help that means when you check code in, if has to compile properly on *every* platform in order for the development process to continue. This makes the process much slower. So Konqueror will develop faster as will most browsers but in the long run Mozilla will out pace them all.

Re:The reason

ACs at their best :)

Re:Konqueror Works Fine

Why do so many people say that Konqueror's soooo good? I don't want to say that its developers didn't do any good work, but it isn't the best program ever! I don't really think most of the people who keep posting about Konqueror being the best/fastest/coolest browser for Linux have ever tried all the alternatives.