The Celeron Casts Aside Its Crutches 113
A number of people have written in regarding AnandTech's
new Celeron 800 review. Why does this one matter? This is the first Celereon to use a 100 Mhz FSB, rather then the 66 Mhz FSB [?] it has been hobbled with - the competition between the Duron and Celeron heats up.
This makes it... (Score:2)
Uh, Hemos, you need coffee. Like now.
Re:This makes it... (Score:1)
Hey, at least the link works (doesn't it?)
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Re:This makes it... (Score:2)
Still uncompetitive against AMD Duron (Score:2)
The reason is simple: Duron's CPU core is WAY faster than the Celeron, thanks to the Duron's Athlon-derived FPU unit.
Re:This makes it... (Score:1)
Ooooh, yippee. 100Mhz FSB. (Score:1)
Does it continue the Intel trend?? (Score:3)
Re:This makes it... (Score:2)
Maybe I'm the one who needs the coffee. :)
Then don't post it? (Score:2)
Hemos, if you post something and have to ask if it matters,... then does it belong on a website which states "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters?"
Too little, too late (Score:4)
Nice knowing you Intel.
This will hardly matter.. (Score:3)
Why you ask? Simple. Ask 100 random people what the difference is between Intel and AMD and the majority won't even know what AMD is.
Re:Still uncompetitive against AMD Duron (Score:1)
Now if you're building a system from scratch, this celeron processor doesn't make much sense since according to the article, a duron 600mhz matches the performance of this celeron 800mhz (for q3 at least). The prices on the Duron are much lower as well.
Re:Then don't post it? (Score:1)
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The one thing that bugs me about Anand's site... (Score:2)
- A.P.
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* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
First set of cructhes (Score:5)
ZDNet article ... (Score:4)
FYI, ZDNet has an article here [zdnet.com].
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Little off topic (Score:1)
Re:The one thing that bugs me about Anand's site.. (Score:1)
Heats up? (Score:5)
The competition heats up? Yeah right. On every single one of the (many) tests Anand ran, the Duron 800 beat the Celeron 800. Every single one. On most of them, the Duron _600_ beat it!! But that's OK, right, Celerons are cheap CPUs, not fast CPUs, I hear you say?
(shuffles over to www.pricewatch.com [pricewatch.com])
No price for a Celeron 800. But a 766 costs $155. And the Durons? $71 for an 800. $47 for a 600. What a miserable piece of shit this Celeron 800 is, 100MHz FSB or no.
And the real world speed bonus is??? (Score:1)
(I have the strange craving for vegetables now and some nice dip...)
Re:Too little, too late (Score:1)
Who would want to pay more for less?
Re:Still uncompetitive against AMD Duron (Score:1)
Re:Little off topic (Score:2)
the first Celereon to use a 100 Mhz FSB (Score:2)
If anyone knew what they were doing, the Celeron 266 was the first Celeron to use 100 MHz FSB.
news anyone?
Somewhat old news... (Score:2)
Re:And the real world speed bonus is??? (Score:2)
(a) does this mean that the new Celery will give 150% the performance of an old Celery at the same clock speed?
No. An application that was absolutely, totally bottlenecked by main memory access I guess would be 150% the speed, but that would never be the case, I doubt you could even write something like that as a theoretical experiment. Real-world improvement will therefore be anywhere between nothing and 50%. Intel claims the Celeron/800 (100MHz bus) is 20% faster than a Celeron/766 (66MHz bus), so that would translate to about 15% faster at the same clock speed.
(b) is this new Celery that is released at 100 mhz any faster then a Celery that has been OC'ed to a 100 mhz bus.
I think not, I don't believe there are any core changes or anything to this new Celeron, just the faster bus & clock speed.
Re:Little off topic (Score:1)
Perhaps that's because... (Score:1)
Not much life left ... (Score:2)
Heck, the official clock speeds of Celeron's dont much matter anyhow
But yeah, I go with the general concensus that the whole Celeron line was to confuse consumers
If something has never been said/seen/heard before, best stop to think about why that is.
Quick and dirty way to double processor access... (Score:1)
Secret windows code
Celeron vs Duron: what about electrical power? (Score:2)
However, what about the power consumption of these babies? If I'm not mistaken, the Celeron has had some success with laptop manufacturers due to its lower requirements (read: longer battery lifetime), right? Now, does anybody know how the Duron compares in this respect?
Re:Somewhat old news... (Score:1)
The Duron is great but the motherboards are just finally starting to get decent...
Re:And the real world speed bonus is??? (Score:2)
OK, I know it's lame to reply to my own post, but..
Intel claims the Celeron/800 (100MHz bus) is 20% faster than a Celeron/766 (66MHz bus)
I should point out that quickly scanning over Anand's figures, there were only three tests that back up this Intel claim. Quake 3 at 640x480 (104fps vs. 84fps), 3Mbit DVD playback (24% CPU vs. 34%) and 6Mbit DVD playback (29% CPU vs. 37%). For everything else (and he did like 26 tests), the improvement was less (often far less) than Intel claimed.
I know I look like an Intel basher, but really, this chip just sucks. Even if they halved the price it would still suck.
Celeron is still useful for OEMs (Score:1)
We typically use a Celeron & Intel's 810 motherboard for our low-end businesss PC's. The Intel board has integrated video, Intel 10/100 NIC, Norton Anti-Virus, and Creative sound. Not only do we get a motherboard with quality components, but we greatly reduce the overall cost of our machine and simplify construction/inventory due to the lack of physical boards that need to be installed.
Now that the Duron is finally making inroads with an integrated chipset, perhaps it will be an option for us. But for now, due to the lack of a quality integrated chipset for the Duron, we will remain using Celerons for all our low-end PCs.
overclocking should be easier (Score:1)
Dirk
OK, Ok (Score:2)
We needs benches vs p3 (Score:1)
Competition my arse (Score:1)
Re:Celeron is still useful for OEMs (Score:1)
Actually, the VIA KT133 chipset for the Duron has had rave reviews [via.com.tw].
there is an upside (Score:1)
the test that don't interest you.
Re:what da heck was that? (Score:2)
However as a general rule, Anand isn't biased towards Intel, or any other product. He tends to be impartial, fair, and even-handed. His problem is that he's never learned to read statistics. Consider a series of nine benchmarks comparing two items: If five benchmarks show a 1% performance increase of product 'a', and four show a 10% increase of product 'b', he's likely to conclude that product 'a' is better because it won more benchmarks.
He's a good kid, and his site is great, but he needs some more math background. Or maybe just a sense of perspective.
Re:This will hardly matter.. (Score:1)
Too little, too late from Intel (Score:1)
intel need to change their marketing strategy, its not rocket science, they just need to price their products realistically compared to AMD.
IANACM (I am not a chipset manufacturer)
Re:OK, Ok (Score:2)
Mind you, this makes me ask why there wasn't a comparison between the Celeron 800 and PIII-800. That's probably of more value to most people considering an upgrade to a current Intel system.
I like my AMD Thunderbird 800 (Score:1)
The Celeron is now even with the Duron (Score:1)
Re:Heats up? (Score:1)
But they can do SMP, right? (Score:1)
And of course some overclockability can be expected. I'll be interested to hear how much....
Re:OK, Ok (Score:2)
This kind of makes the Celeron switch from 66MHz to 100MHz FSB less meaningful. In what situation do you have a computer where it makes more sense to buy a 100MHz FSB Celeron? If you have a Celeron 633 or less you should probably just overclock. If you have a 667 or more you still might overclock and if not, how much difference is a 800MHz/100 Celeron going to make, maybe 25%. Even once the price of the 800MHz/100 Celeron falls to $160 this is a poor use of the money. Perhaps once the 100MHz FSB Celerons reach 950 or 1000 a $160 CPU upgrade will make sense. However, by that time your 667Mhz Celeron system will be out of date enough/slow enough that only a whole new system will make sense.
Not impressed... (Score:1)
Re:Somewhat old news... (Score:1)
Hey lets party like it's 1999 (Score:1)
Re:Celeron vs Duron: what about electrical power? (Score:1)
You're concerned about power consumption and you're looking at x86? PPC, man. You can use x86 to toast bread.
Re:Ooooh, yippee. 100Mhz FSB. (Score:1)
Re:Quick and dirty way to double processor access. (Score:1)
Of course you have to remember that when absolute speed matters, going slowly on the expressway doesn't satisfy.
Big machines usually go wider instead of fast. (A gross generalization.) Which is why a mainframe can push so much data, even though the clock rate of the CPU is probably embarrasingly slow. A Pentium II or III might have a 64 bit path to memory, which is a lot for a 32 bit processor - years ago an RS/6000 workstation could have a 256 bit path to memory.
The problem with wider vs. faster is pin counts and wiring. When CPUs get too many pins, they become difficult to build and unweildy. Wiring on the motherboard becomes more complex too. That's why there is a lot of interest in 'serial' data transfer standards. Going wide is cool, it's just harder to build.
the only use.. (Score:1)
This is news? (Score:1)
Re:We needs benches vs p3 (Score:1)
Re:OK, Ok (Score:5)
No matter what, this is good news... (Score:1)
I've got two oversized fans on the processors, and they're running at least 5 degrees cooler than the BX. And this is for a 66Mhz fsb. At 133, which is required for a socket P3, it would be a _lot_ hotter...
So this Celeron, while not performing as well as even a Duron, it makes for a good value option for me. No overheating, no memory change, just get the 2 CPUs and the 2 adapters, and I'm all set.
Wohoo!
Re:what is cprm? (Score:1)
Crap! (Score:1)
Not completely too late... (Score:1)
Sure, the Celeron is slower per MHz compared to the Duron, and costs $20-$100 more for the "same" speed. But... do entry-level users know this? Also, this cost is currently being offset by all-in-one, integrated motherboards. If you actually build a system using new components, a Celeron-based and Duron-based system end up costing roughly the same.
So... the unknowing entry-level consumer will still probably buy the Intel-based system for its "Intel" name, and OEM manufacturers will still push the Celeron... for now. I'm not pro-Intel, per se. I just point out the facts. And the truth is, once AMD gets a wide availability of an all-in-one, integrated motherboard, the price/value difference will be undeniable.
Well, at least that's my take on it...
Re:But they can do SMP, right? (Score:2)
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What's the big deal? (Score:1)
Later
ErikZ
Celeron Upgrading or Duron System (Score:2)
Celery300a (Score:1)
Re:there is an upside (Score:1)
Re:Celeron is still useful for OEMs (Score:1)
VIA is making a solution to that now (as well as SIS) for the Durons, but they are still in their infancy and didn't garner the greatest of reviews...
Third set of cructhes? (Score:2)
Intel is clearly protecting the PIII by not enabling Celeron with PC133.
Re:Quick and dirty way to double processor access. (Score:1)
This was actually the driving force behind that Micron DDR chipset with 8MB of on-chipset cache a few months ago. Their chip's logic took up only a small fraction of the die size which was necessary for the number of pins the die had, so they filled up the rest of the space with (effectively free) cache. But I can bet you that they'd rather have made the die smaller instead, except that wasn't an option.
Now, if you're proposing to double/quadruple datapath width, you're talking a significant increase in pincount, and thus a significant increase in die size, even if the chip doesn't need to be much more complex. You could possibly take advantage, as Micron did, of the sudden increase in available real estate, but the bottom line is that the chip will be more expensive and the motherboard will be more expensive as a direct result of widening the datapath.
johnthomas
Slightly less cynical phrasing (Score:2)
Differently able processors at different price points.
Not so straightforward (Score:2)
Re:Heats up? (Score:1)
True dat. Anandtech make the same point equally well when they refer to the Duron, in their wrap-up of 2000, as "the processor without a home". There are far too few cheap Socket A boards out there, and it could end up hampering the Duron if it hasn't already.
I beat them to it... (Score:2)
Oh... you mean now it's official?
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Re:the first Celereon to use a 100 Mhz FSB (Score:1)
Re:Not so straightforward (Score:2)
secondly, amd has already shown the SMP chipset. just give them a month or two to bring it to full market (production).
only time will tell if theirs is buggy; but intel certainly is.
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you're missing... (Score:2)
Re:We needs benches vs p3 (Score:1)
This is where AMD really beats Intel. The Duron has a smaller die than an Athlon, because the chip was designed so that part of the cache could be left off. The result is that the AMD can produce more Durons per wafer (read: cheaper to manufacture.) The Celeron has the same die as a P3, with some traces cut to disable part of the cache (read: more expensive to manfacture.) So this is more Intel's problem than AMD's. AMD's real problem is marketing.
Re:Somewhat old news... (Score:1)
Re:This will hardly matter.. (Score:1)
Re:Here's the scoop (Score:1)
> internal SBus of 66Mhz
>but the chip is still only talking to the bus at 66Mhz.
That doesn't seem to be too accurate (but i've been wrong in the past)
sounds like B.S.
I mean, I'm sure it's the same damn chips running at 100mhz bus, but is that really a big deal... (remember the celery 366 ->550 Over clock..)
Can anyone confirm/deny this posters statements?
*shrug* YMMV
E.
PS plus the "fa fa fooey" handle makes me suspect b.s. *Shrug*
isn't intel.. (Score:1)
It was sorta stupid, yet intersting strategy for them to effectively cripple/downgrade their own chips to take over the lower market tier...
E.
For those with O/C'd Celeron 300(a)s (Score:1)
Re:Here's the scoop (Score:1)
Celeron at 8.0 x 133?? Might be fast (Score:1)
Re:But they can do SMP, right? (Score:1)
Disabled functionallity (Score:1)
if it was 66mhz would be 12X at 100mhz that would make 1.2Ghz... (not that you would get there)
but now its 100mhz 8x... blah cant do anything fun with that.. time to get a duron.
Not to mention incompatible cpus (Score:1)
I got burnt when I wanted to upgrade my abit bp6 dual system to faster cpus. I would imagine intel
will do the same thing here again.
-C
Re:Third set of cructhes? (Score:1)
With the Celeron, 133MHz bus technology is already here, and in all likelihood, all currently produced parts are capable of running it. Consider that the early 300MHz Celeron ran a 66MHz bus, and we're talking double or more of that, now.
Once the cache moved onto the chip with PIII, the difference between PIII and Celeron became pure (dying) package legacy, marketing, and selective crippling.
I suspect the Celeron and PIII are the same die, perhaps with crippling fuses or bond pads on the former. Anyone know for sure?
um, no... (Score:1)
um, no. you are multiplying by 2^10 the number of bits that can be addressed, but are only doubling the number of bits that can be passed in any given period of time.
Re:Celeron is still useful for OEMs (Score:2)
Wow! Norton Anti-Virus built into the motherboards! The amazing things Intel is doing these days ;-)
-jon
What chu talkin' bout, Willis? (Score:2)
For 202$ you can get a 700 Duron bundled with an ASUS KT133 motherboardw/fan(you can prolly shop around and get it for less). For 30$ more you can get the same with an 800.
How much is the the Celeron 800 going to retail for if it comes at ~170 in units of 1000? Does that mean it will retail for 170$- nearly twice the cost of an 800Duron? How much is it going to run you in 3 months? The price of the Duron bundle above has already dropped 20$ in the past two months.
If the 600 Duron is about equal to the 800 Celeron(it's a little weaker, actually), then the 700 Duron is definitely going to be better.
Even IF you already have the motherboard you do, if you are considering upgrading your chip, since you are willing to jump past all the other celerons to the 800, I don't see why you wouldn't consider swapping your mobo as well and jump ship to AMD. Then sell your CUSL2(and the chip you likely would have sold already), and guess what... you probably ended up spending about the same amount of dough in buying the 800 celeron(probably less if you don't mercy the board away)- only you have a better machine now.
Or better yet- set up a family member with your old gear and help defray your upgrade costs(like I did). It's sorta like selling it, but you know it's got a good home.
Once you get into the AMD family, speed comes cheap, and will only be getting cheaper.
Egads I sound like an AMD ho... Then again... maybe I'm just a Mac user who wants to get the most out of any 'winblows' junk that I pay for.
:P
D
Now it only hobbles along with a cane! (Score:2)
Re:Not so straightforward (Score:2)
Re:Slightly less cynical phrasing (Score:2)
Re:Not to mention incompatible cpus (Score:2)
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Re:Not so straightforward (Score:2)
for non-smp, yes, I agree. but I've had at least 4 different dual bx boards (tyan, asus, abit, supermicro) and ALL of them locked up tight with either NT or linux in seti@home. ie, under very very heavy, continuous smp apps, the system would hang. I tried better heatsinks and other system cures - nothing would fix it. there's even some KNOWN bugs in the bx system for smp - look for a program called cpuburn that detects these bugs.
I've yet to hear any complaints of stability from the BX chipset
then you obviously haven't looked around enough or done the research. believe me - I really WANTED it to work reliably; but just got tired of the deadlock/hangs and having to drive home to reboot my linux box when too much concurrent cpu activity ocurred ;-(
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Re:OK, Ok (Score:2)
currently cheaper (!!!) than the Celeron 800, so
given my fairly high-end motherboard, I'm still
more likely to go with that. Well, maybe. AMD is
awfully tempting...
Re:ZDNet article ... (Score:2)
Unless you have used Linux as a workstation, heavily, you shouldn't comment on what it can and cannot do. Some of us write books just fine with Linux, graphics, 3-D modeling, etc... And games support is very good, just as good as Windows 2000 (provided they make a Linux port).
I'm frankly sick of people who expect Linux applications to have good Office import filters, when Microsoft cannot even achieve such a feat with their own Mac ports and Works product. That should tell you something in where the problem lies (and it's not Linux ;-).
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith