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Linux Business Hardware

Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum 173

Posted by michael from the happy-canada-day dept.
Adam Wern writes "Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation, today announced the establishment of the CE Linux Forum. CELF will discuss and formalize requirements for extensions to Linux to meet the needs of CE products such as audio/visual products and cellular phones, etc. CELF will publish such requirements and will accept and evaluate open source solutions that support to meet the published requirements. CELF will also promote broad usage of Linux for CE products. IBM, an industry leader in Linux solutions and supporter of open standards ecosystems, is pursuing membership and plans to be an active participant in the CELF."
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Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum More

Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum

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  • In other news... (Score:4, Funny)

    by indros13 ( 531405 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @02:56PM (#6341752) Homepage Journal
    ...Nerds for Nerds has released their new CELF-Help guide to open source OS.

    So punny it hurts :-)

  • You spelled it wrong (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It's CRLF, not CELF.
  • Yup, Linux is just a non-threatening, passing obstacle along the road to complete IT domination by Microsoft.

    Oh wait.....

  • SCO announced its intention to sue Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation for even thinking about using Linux.

    • Re:In other news... (Score:3, Informative)

      by CvD ( 94050 )
      One might wonder if these companies contributing code to a version of the Linux kernel would mean other intellectual property debacles a la SCO. But, according to an article [newsforge.com] written by Slashdot's Roblimo on Newsforge, there is legal stuff you must sign before your code is allowed into the tree:

      "...as long as you include a paragraph's worth of non-onerous disclaimer (basically an agreement to release your code under the GPL or LGPL) with each submission, along with disclosure of any patents, patents pending

  • J2ME (Score:2, Insightful)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 )
    Since most CE apps (IE mobile phones) are coded with J2ME, now-a-days, simply adding J2ME into this new Linux extension would mean easy portability of already existing applications.

  • After all... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @02:59PM (#6341792)


    "CELF" is easier to pronounce than "CEGnu/LF"...

    • BSD/linux (Score:5, Interesting)

      by joe_bruin ( 266648 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:08PM (#6341918) Homepage Journal
      actually, a company i used to work for created linux-based CE devices. however, the userland was entirely BSD derived (mostly in crunched binaries) and proprietary closed source software. as with most other CE's, we found little use for the GNU tools in the device itself (obviously we used the gnu development toolchain).

      every once in a while, some jackass tried to tell us that we're not using "linux", we're using "GNU/Linux". we'd correct him, we use "BSD/Linux".
      • Way to go. BTW I'm having only a little bit of luck porting the OpenBSD userland to RH8 Linux...I think a BSD userland would be very useful on account of its size alone. Takers?

        -uso [mailto].
        ash, of course, already there.
      • Just curious, what kind of BSD userland tools would a consumer electronics device need?

  • Oh no! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Shishio ( 540577 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:00PM (#6341799)
    Electronic giants? They're going to enslave us all! Run, run everybody!

    Oh, not real giants? Oh OK. Nevermind.

  • long awaited replacement to RS-232? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Gizzmonic ( 412910 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:02PM (#6341834) Homepage Journal
    I like this CE Linux idea. Personally, I'm still waiting for a new alternative to the venerable RS-232. USB can't do it since it requires a computer, and Firewire is too expensive still. And yeah, there's all manner of proprietary connections out there, but you have to have a home theater that's made up entirely of one brand (and that really sucks).

    Having a Linux CE (not to be confused with Windows CE =) to work with consumer electronics might be a good idea. So that if my DVD player runs Linux, my TIVO runs Linux, and my TV set runs Linux, I can automate recordings, get them to turn each other on, and that kinda stuff.

    Since Linux is (relatively) free, it shouldn't take it forever to "trickle-down" into consumer-grade stuff. With a little luck, RS-232 device control will go the way of the dodo (/me kicks his old n busted Sony VTR).
    • you seem to have the misguided belief that by using linux, these manufacturers will open up their protocols / comm interfaces.

      Just your friendly reminder that just because you're using linux, it doesn't mean you have to be open.

      sure, some stuff like modifications required to pass certification will be shared with members of the Forum. but beyond that (and stuff required by the licenses), I wouldn't expect any open-ness from any of these vendors.

      • Re:linux != open (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Gherald ( 682277 )
        Maybe he just RTFA.

        They are going to "Extend Linux." That means Open. WTF would they doing to do otherwise? Distribute pre-compiled modules for every architecture? Give me a break. Companies don't develop proprietary stuff in groups of eight. The whole point is openess.. they want interoperability with each others' products.

        From the frontpage: [celinuxforum.org]

        The CELF is a place to come and discuss various issues that are of particular importance to the CE industry. Through an open process, the CELF members w
        • "WTF would they doing to do otherwise?" *splat* I suppose you can figure out what I really meant to say there.

        • Re:linux != open (Score:2, Insightful)

          by CBackSlash ( 613476 )
          When I read the press release, and the other pages on that site, I didn't see anything at all related to interoperability.

          It looks like they're interested in trimming the fat from the kernel to get something better suited to CE devices. In other words, have one tree where all the work that has to be done gets done, reducing the duplication of effort that they have today.

          Sure, doing this will in fact "create a foundation on which the CELF members and others can build compelling network products.", but t

      • Just your friendly reminder that just because you're using linux, it doesn't mean you have to be open.

        It means they must release the source. An open source kernel certainly limits the possibility to use closed protocols.

    • Re:long awaited replacement to RS-232? (Score:5, Informative)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:21PM (#6342063) Homepage Journal

      I2C [philips.com] is an alternative to RS-232. Actually, it's an alternative to RS-422. SMBus [smbus.org] has some usefulness as well but I2C, I think, is closer to "where it's at".

    • You said

      USB can't do it since it requires a computer

      but then you also said
      Having a Linux CE ... to work with consumer electronics might be a good idea.

      If your device is capable of running Linux, it's capable of controlling a USB port. Why, then, wouldn't USB be a useful connection type?

      • If your device is capable of running Linux, it's capable of controlling a USB port. Why, then, wouldn't USB be a useful connection type?

        Because USB == extra hardware. RS-232 is extremely simple in silicon and software. I presume a UART (serial interface) could be incorporated into CE devides much more easily and cheaper than USB. I'm quite sure the kernel drivers are simpler for serial, too, and I'm quite sure CE devices will be using a stripped-down kernel.

        I don't know much about USB below the install-t
  • i could be wrong, of course, but looking at the website seems to indicate to me they're talking about Consumer Electronics, not windows CE.
    does sony make any windows CE devices? i don't think they do.
    in any case, this doesn't mean that microsoft could lawyer 'em to death over the name.
  • ...until ripping off MS product names was pioneered by Lindows.

    Still I'm all for it, especially if it ends up with things like improved Real Time OS code being pushed back into the GPL arena and made available for desktop uses.
    • CE has long been a term for Certified Electronics in Europe.

      A bit like FCC ratings, most of our electronics goods have a little C/E sticker on them or have it embossed in the shell.

      Windows CE was a confusing brand name here because of this. You would almost think it was done on purpose.

      Imagine Philips releasing a set of products called "Philips Approved FCC"

  • Oh no!! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Not another mobile operating system!! Seeing as everything with an OS already has one, what's the point of finding another solution to an already solved problem?

    Why not use something that already exists?

  • I find it interesting (Score:5, Funny)

    by Kardax ( 685951 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:04PM (#6341868)
    ...that they're using FrontPage to make a website promoting Linux...

    -Kardax

    • Re:I find it interesting (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Isn't that somehow against the "though shall not use FrontPage to write HTML which is offensive of our Lord and Benevolent Monopolist Bill"?
    • they're using FrontPage to make a website promoting Linux

      doesn't that violate the frontpage EULA? They mentioned the word Linux... M$ will yank their frontpage license for publishing a site that disparages them by mentioning the word Linux...

    • > Send mail to webmaster@celinuxforum.org with questions or comments about this web site.

      Yeah, I never associated a "master of the web" with someone who creates static content with FrontPage.

      id="AutoNumber1"? What the hell does that do? ;)

    • Re:I find it interesting (Score:3, Interesting)

      by CvD ( 94050 )
      And they're not using Linux as the webserver:

      Sez Netcraft [netcraft.com]:

      The site www.celinuxforum.org is running Apache/1.3.27 (Unix) FrontPage/5.0.2.2623 on Solaris 8.

      Bastards... (just kidding... I think this is a great initiative!)
    • well, emacs is a little hard to use from a cell phone (although, I'm sure its been tried), so I guess they handed it off to the secretary.

  • And of course.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:07PM (#6341900)
    The CE Linux Forum site was built with Frontpage 5.0 and hosted on IIS. Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain, Dorothy.

    • So what? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mmol_6453 ( 231450 )
      So what? They're not trying to promote a moral standard, they're just trying to encourage cheap production of useful software. They're having OSS developers do some of the work, to save cost.

      And I say, go for it! Anything to get more attention to the benefits of Open Source. Benefits don't have to be limited to the end-user, you know...

  • Interop (Score:3, Insightful)

    by chmilar ( 211243 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:07PM (#6341903)
    I can see some advantages to this:

    • Consumer Electronics devices are becoming more powerful. It will be nice to use Open Standards to make them interoperate with each other.

    • Using Linux make these devices more "hackable" (like TiVo).



    Unfortunately, the demands of content providers (including Sony) for Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) might make openness and iteroperability disappear. If there is a common platform for DRM, the devices are more likely to play well together than if everyone chooses a different OS and DRM.

    • If they do DRM through this council I wouldn't worry too much. The GPL says that they have to release the source for what they do. This puts them in one of two spots:

      1) They source for their DRM items will be public and can be used in other GPL kernels. Thus, we won't be SOL for the DVDs and CDROMs of tommorow. We will also know how it works (enter the DMCA questioning)

      2) They implement DRM as a binary driver (ala nVidea). As such., the group members will have to develop their own modules independe

  • Clarifying Acronyms: CE = Consumer Electronics (Score:5, Funny)

    by syntap ( 242090 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:08PM (#6341924)
    Leave it to the GNU/OSS/GPL guys to give you an acronym without spelling it out first.

    "The CE Linux Forum (CELF)..."

    They tried describing it but only got there halfway :)

  • First serious coup outside x86 world (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gsfprez ( 27403 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:09PM (#6341927)
    there have been little skirmishes between hardware makers and MS... the horrible cellphone stuff, the cable-box stuff...

    but this... this is one of two things..

    i hope its what i said - tht its a coup for the hardware makers to take back their devices... i mean, they can see the friggen code.. and if its not working for them, they can fix it.

    but what i fear this may be is simply $15 of domain registration and 15 minutes of web development geared to scare MS into complying with their demands to lower Windows CE licensing (hell, Windows itself) and CE development tool licensing fees.

    i'll be optimistic.. i say its really a coup and everyone in the WINCE dept in Redmond is getting a Holloween letter today about how they need to do whatever it takes, including dumping, to get back these people as customers.

    gone are the days of 5 buttons and no UI to run CE devices.. the iPod has totally convinced everyone of that. These hardware makers need some way to control their products.. and this is really the best way to do it.
    • demands to lower Windows CE licensing

      It's a replay of the Handset OS battle. The makers of consumer devices do not want to be PC'ed by Microsoft.

      There is no margins in PC's and it's impossible to truely innovate as the infrastructure is pretty much owned by MS/Windows. The handset makers like Nokia etc. realized this early and they conseqently shun MS regardless of the quality / price of CE.

      An opensource OS standard for consumer products are just what they want since no one controls the direction

    • I suspect they're playing the game really smart by having OSS developers do some of the work. They publish their specs, and we'll do the work for free. I say go for it! It's a great way to expose additional benefits of using Open Source.
    • to scare MS into complying with their demands to lower Windows CE licensing (hell, Windows itself) and CE development tool licensing fees.

      How do I parse thee? Let me count the ways.
      1. We could replace the comma with an equal sign.
      2. Or we could instead just remove the parenthesis.
    • 15 minutes of web development>/i>
      Am I the only one who thought that was the most sad web site possible... by several MegaBillion $ corporations ? It may be a temporary thing or something...or is it april 1 again ??.. hmm...gotta get out more

  • Fantastic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ad0le ( 684017 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:11PM (#6341957)
    This is the true spirit of linux.

    Given the magnitude of the invoilved companies, I think this is a great step toward linux. Of the companies listed I own atleast one product from each and think a standardized front end to a broad range of devices is a wonderful idea.

    Given the fact that almost every CE device has a frontend nowadays, it would be great if these guys pooled thier resources and created a standardized UI/Widget set that was highly portable and robust enough to handle the demands that these devices would require.
    • it would be great if these guys pooled thier resources and created a standardized UI/Widget set that was highly portable and robust enough to handle the demands that these devices would require.

      Come on, this is OSS. Here's what will happen:

      1: GNU or somebody will start a (sub-)project to do this. They will have very-well thought out goals and not tie themselves to deadlines.

      2: Someone else will create a really cool looking front end with different goals and standards than 1.

      3: OSS will divide into two

  • And heads rolled in Redmond (Score:5, Funny)

    by Tsu Dho Nimh ( 663417 ) <abacaxi@@@hotmail...com> on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:11PM (#6341960)
    "Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation announced the establishment of the CE Linux Forum. CELF will discuss and formalize requirements for extensions to Linux to meet the needs of CE products such as audio/visual products and cellular phones"

    And in other industry news, Microsoft announced that they were replacing all the upper management for their Faithful User Department. The FUD team has often been criticised by high-ranking management for failing to produce the degree of loyalty desired in users. The high profile defections in Germany and Spain reportedly led to a confrontational meeting and a mass firing.

  • Bringing Linux to embedded devices - already done (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Uhm, what's wrong with for instance the

    * Sharp Zaurus
    * The Phototainer ( InnoPlus [innoplus.com])

    ? Both run Linux just fine.

    Look at the PT, for instance, almost instant boot, instant shutdown, uses only 4 MB flash and 16 MB of memory, can play a buttload of different formats, talk to the internal HDD and CF cards (or others with adapters), plays nice as a usb-storage compatible device, and has an infrared receiver for the included remote. And has TV out. And a tiny speaker and 3.5mm sound out.

    Now just imagine you inc

  • Others (Score:3, Informative)

    by RichiP ( 18379 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:22PM (#6342068) Homepage
    I hope Motorola joins in, as well. Then there's the Embedded Linux Consortium [embedded-linux.org]. I do hope they consolidate their resources.

    On a different note, any news on the Motorola A760?
  • "Electronic Giants Form CE Linux Forum"

    I think this includes the Transformers, right? How about the other electronic giant monster and hero types?

  • Read the PDF for membership? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hrieke ( 126185 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:34PM (#6342191) Homepage
    2.3 Membership fees vary by class, according to the following schedule:
    Membership Class Annual Fee Founding Member $16,000
    Appointed Member $12,000
    Associate Member $8,000
    Supporting Member $4,000
    Special Supporting Member $0
    Page 6 of the PDF. So my question is, where is the general hacker's community input going to be at? What about those who do a ton of hacking and development, but don't belong to any of these companies- where will that voice be found in this orginization's structure (answer: it doesn't appear in the membership charter).
    There are questions that should be asked that I haven't seen being asked yet...

    • Re:Read the PDF for membership? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Delphiki ( 646425 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @03:42PM (#6342269)
      If you give away your software you can't really think of it as your property anymore, i.e. Linux doesn't belong to hackers. Regardless, "general hackers" aren't electronics manufacturers. So why should general hackers dictate what the standards and requirements for Linux on this kind of device is? This organization isn't meant to get input from the hackers, it's meant to make specifications that the coders can choose to implement or not implement.
      • I think that it is more of being given repect for the OS that has been developed by the community at large. And by giving someone close to the source a higher chair than 'Special Supporting Member'- our concerns and issues might be better heard.
    • My guess is anyone who actually develops any code for Linux CE will be classified as a "Special Supporting Member". If all you want to do is bitch and whine about the specs then you will have to shell out some cash.
  • Windows CE & Linux? Oh the irony!!!
  • This is really just an enlargement (although a significant one) of the previously discussed agreement between Sony and Matsushita. I even submitted a story with back references to both [slashdot.org] previous [slashdot.org] stories, but it got rejected. Shrug.

    The big deal, of course, is that Microsoft has been pushing Windows CE and other Windows technologies for use in consumer electronics devices. This is a direct challenge to that. And the cynic in me wonders if it isn't, at least in part, a bid to make Microsoft become more respons
  • ...since our lovely TiVo DVRs are powered by Linux...would make sense...

  • ding'a'ling'ling. (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Wow, the sleeping giants' alarm clocks have just gone off. I guess that nothing has any value until there's a billion dollar lawsuit over it. :)

    Am I the only one that finds this a bit disturbing?
    Firstly, this is a pay-to-join consortium. I assume that until you pay, you won't get to see the specs. Does this mean that the 'extensions' are going to be presented to Linus as a fait-accompli patch? How is he supposed to react to something that he doesn't like? It's one thing pissing off the odd developer, but r
    • Wow, the sleeping giants' alarm clocks have just gone off. I guess that nothing has any value until there's a billion dollar lawsuit over it. :)

      I never considered that - Linux is valued at over 3 Billion at present because of SCO. Heh. This must just be driving SCO bonkers to see "all that revenue that could have been ours!!" stay with the CE vendors. Nice to see.

      Firstly, this is a pay-to-join consortium. I assume that until you pay, you won't get to see the specs.

      When you buy one of thier Linux power
  • I swear that slap to MicroSoft's face almost busted my eardrums.
  • If I was the folks at Windriver, I would be really worried. Linux or XP embedded is becoming the system of choice in the embedded space.

    But you wouldn't know this from their 10K. I was going through it last night and noticed a couple of interesting facts. First, they have had negative cashflow in the last three years, and two, they only give a nod to the threat posed by Linux.

    Linux really appeals to the whole range of embedded folks. For those who want something turnkey, they can get it. For those that wa

  • SCO Influenced ByLaws (Score:4, Interesting)

    by PetoskeyGuy ( 648788 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @04:14PM (#6342655)
    There is an interesting section of their bylaws that members have to agree to in order to submit code. That should eliminate any of the ambiguity with the associated with some other submission processes. Non-members must submit to this agreement as well for their submissions to be accepted.
    <Company or individual name> submits this input to CE Linux Forum WG XXX (the "Contribution") to the CE Linux Forum for use by the CE Linux Forum and its Members for purposes of developing and promoting a Proposed Specification or Standardized Specification and for any purpose reasonably related to the CE Linux Forum. The CE Linux Forum and its Members shall have no obligation to treat the Contribution as confidential information, or to use the Contribution for any purpose, however. <Company or individual name> hereby declares and agrees to license this input under terms that satisfy the Open Source Definition, as published by the Open Source Initiative including but not limited to GNU General Public License and GNU Lesser General Public License. Further, <Company or individual name> grants to any interested Member (i) a non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, non-transferable, royalty free, worldwide license under all copyrights contained in its input, to reproduce in any form and make derivatives thereof for the sole purpose of developing, publishing, and distributing Proposed Specifications and Proposed Implementations, and (ii) a non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, non-transferable, royalty free, worldwide license under all copyrights contained in its input, to reproduce in any form for the sole purpose of publishing or distributing Standardized Specifications or Reference Implementations.

    I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but Here are the bylaws [celinuxforum.org] of the orginization.

  • Footprints? A WinCE guy is curious (mildly OT) (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Embedded Geek ( 532893 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @04:21PM (#6342756) Homepage
    Many folks have pointed out, the "CE" here stands for "Consumer Electronics," not "Comaact Edition" as in Windows CE [microsoft.com] (or, at least, that's what I've been told it means - can't seem to find it on their site). Despite that, this article got me thinking again about Embedded Linux again.

    I've been using WinCE on several projects for about two years and haven't seen any footprint information on the latest flavors of embedded Linux. If anyone can spare a moment, could they let me know a ballpark estimate of the RAM and flash footprints of each of these configurations:

    1. A minimal, headless Linux embedded configuration.
    2. A headless configuration with basic TCP/IP functionality (FTP, telnet, ping, etc).
    3. Headless configuration with basic TCP/IP and a simple web server (so I might post config or maintenence data about the target that way).
    4. TCP/IP configuration with a minimal VGA/SVGA video dislay.
    5. Same config but with web browsing capability.
    Again, no need for exact numbers - just ballpark estimates or a pointer to a site that might have this info. I have no immediate needs for this - we're actually very happy with WinCE. I'm just curious for any future needs. Thanks.
  • How about a functional James Bond watch? It can have things like laser cutters and electro magnetic pulse jammers and other cool things to give you that extra edge at the next LAN party. They need to recruit Rolex or Omega in the consortium so we won't look so geeky with a high tech blocky thing strapped on our wrist.

    Next time a LAN party has a lot of network problems, look for a geek in a tux wearing a Rolex and beat the crap out of him.
  • Not bad for a non real-time OS.

    Wonder if Linux will be extended to run an RT subsystem or the RTS extended to run Linux?
  • As each manufacturer customises the environment to suit their needs it will be interesting to see which are prepared to release their firmware under the GPL.

    Surely it will be tricky to program for Linux embedded devices without some developer cutting and pasting some GPL source code along the line.

    Ah well, it won't be my ass on the line anyway. I'll keep on using Inferno [vitanuova.com] which seems to have a lot more technically interesting things going for it.
  • Matsushita Electric Industrial, Sony Corporation, Hitachi, NEC Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp Corporation, and Toshiba Corporation

    I don't see any American company in the list. Seems to mee they all are scared by Microsoft and SCO.

  • Wouldn't it be better to call it LinCE?

  • IBM mad-libs (Score:3, Funny)

    by ClosedSource ( 238333 ) on Tuesday July 01, 2003 @06:56PM (#6344395)
    IBM, an industry leader in [choose an OS] solutions and supporter of [choose a movement], is pursuing membership and plans to be an active participant in the [choose a group].

  • I notice the CE Linux forum is aiming to make the following nimprovement to Linux:

    Further improve the startup and shutdown time

    Improve real-time capabilities

    Reduce ROM/RAM size requirements

    Improve efficiency of power management

    Aren't at least some of these requirements (especially #2) already addressed by L4Linux [tu-dresden.de]?

  • This article [informationweek.com] has additional information, including that the forum plans to release some source by the end of summer.
  • This is a powerful group of companies that actually "get it". They genuinely understand that agreeing to give away their improvements isn't a concession - it means getting back ten-fold in return. Furthermore, they have committed to improving Linux in specific, important ways. On top of all that, they'll be using Linux and making it more visible while at the same time improving the quality and interoperability of their products. It's a win/win/win/win/win situation. K-rad.
  • Next time somebody says that corporate users are afraid about the SCO crap, point them to this article.

    If those companies are not concerned neither should yours be.

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