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Television Media

TiVo Service Cost Rising 299

Posted by timothy from the now-how-much-would-you-pay dept.
evil_one writes: "Shortly after the article on ReplayTV mods, comes this story about TiVo cost increases." A 30% increase in the cost of TiVo service will probably affect a lot of readers -- and might just make the hassle of a homebrewed PVR a little more attractive. Of course, TiVo service is what makes a TiVo more attractive than a plain recorder anyhow.
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TiVo Service Cost Rising More

TiVo Service Cost Rising

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  • Service? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by groman ( 535485 )
    What is TiVo service anyhow? Is there anything specific in the service that you can't code into a homebrewed version?

    • Re:Service? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Galahad2 ( 517736 )

      Well, I haven't heard of an entirely homemade version of a TiVo. It's a pretty complicated device -- MPEG compression isn't all that easy to do on a chip. Toms [tomshardware.com] recently had an article describing a hard drive hack for it, which explains what a TiVo is pretty well in the introduction. This place [tivofaq.com] also has a pretty good FAQ which answers a bunch of random questions that are likely to come up.

      • Supposedly MS will be releasing XP SP1 by the end of the year, containing Freestyle software. Freestyle lets you control Windows from a remote control, presenting a special UI and features just for that. The features included DVD playback, etc, and also television recording, pausing, just like the TiVO. Basically, MS disbanded it's ultimate TV, and sent the developers to either the Freestyle camp or the XBox camp.

    • Re:Service? (Score:5, Informative)

      by jlower ( 174474 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @08:30AM (#3100899) Homepage
      The service is just the program guide data, downloaded periodically to the TiVo unit.

      It's what the TiVo does with the guide data that makes it worthwhile. It lets you set up season passes (shows you want recorded every time they come on), wish lists (shows to keep a watch for), and of course you can view the program data about 99 different ways (by schedule, genre, actor, etc). The software is pretty smart. If a show changes time slot, it'll adjust the recording. If that episode has been recorded in the last 28 days, it'll skip it, and so on.

      Although the TiVo runs on Linux, the applications that do all the work are not open source. In addition, the program data is in a proprietary format. You may be able to access and assemble your own guide data but I don't know of any way to get a TiVo to use it.

      I'm not crazy about the price increase but will continue to subscribe as it's still easily worth the price. I don't watch much TV but am totally spoiled by TiVo now in that I can watch it whenever I want.
      • Remember, you aren't getting a dumb box that works the same way forever. You get the benifits of the software improvements Tivo develops. A priority queue for season passes, keyword wishlists that can auto-record, and VBR encoding have all been added since I bought my Tivo.

    • Re:Service? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 03, 2002 @09:36AM (#3100973)
      The service fee is related to paying for providing the TiVo dial-up services.

      Technically this has five major parts:
      - A TiVo provided Internet access dial-up point (which presently is done through UUnet)
      - A TiVo provided NTP (Network Time Protocol) server to reset the time on the TiVo
      - A web server which provides TiVo software updates
      - A web server which provides almost *ALL* the data Zap2It has for the channels you recieve in a format approbate to TiVo (it also provides the TiVolution magazine data)
      - A toll-free accessable technical support staff if any of the above does not work correctly

      Of the five major items that make up the service, TiVo actually allows four to be used even if TiVo is not presently subscribing. The only piece they with-hold is the Zap2It data despite the fact that they need to still pay to provide the other four major pieces.

      Figuring out how to rewrite the CGI scripts used to feed the data to the TiVo and the format of the data is not overly hard. Tridge from the Samba group has done it but has been "kind" enough not to provide details to the public at large. But probably any of the bnetd developers which cloned the Blizzard Battlenet server would also be able to figure out the data structures and protocol of TiVo guide data.

      However, the hard part is getting ALL the data. Zap2It does not make everything easily available through their web interface. The TiVo makes use of not only the program names, length and descriptions but also other critical data effects it's functionality. The wish-list feature requires properily formated data of the actors and actresses for each show. The parental controls requires properily formated ratings of each of the shows.

      Also, selling the service is a big portion of TiVo's business. Building and selling the hardware is largely Phillips and Sony's cut of the business. The service is the only thing TiVo sells itself to the consumer. Hence, alot of TiVo hackers, like Tridge, tend to avoid discussing attacking this portion of TiVo's business with fear that it will destroy the future of TiVo.

      Questions I have however is:
      - How much money is being made off TiVo service related advertizing such as the special Lexus menu item which appeared for a while? Why isn't the service advertizing help reduce the cost to subscribing?
      - How much of the subscription ends up being payed over to UUnet? Can TiVo provide a discount to those that already have an alternative PPP/Internet dial-up account someplace else (or use TiVo Net through broadband)?

  • Distrubted? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Peridriga ( 308995 )
    Couldn't one create a distributed PC client that would compile the TV listings from around the world (Maybe leeching content off of TVGuide.com).

    Change the dial-up information to your dial-up account (if anyone still has one of those... and if you don't $9.95 for NetZero is still cheaper than TiVO or ReplayTV's subscription costs).

    Just the added note... Could you imagine a beauwolf cluster of TiVO's?
    • I've always thought you could use some kind of distributed system to indicate when commercials are on, so you can stop recording.

      So if like 90% of the users in your area say there's a commercial going, drop some kind of "commercial start/stop" marker.

      You could do the same thing w/listings-- compile the TV guide the same way the CDDB was originally populated, ie everyone contributes a tiny part and everyone benefits.

    • Re:Distrubted? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dimator ( 71399 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @05:01AM (#3100673) Homepage Journal
      Couldn't one create a distributed PC client that would compile the TV listings from around the world (Maybe leeching content off of TVGuide.com).

      Even more interesting than that idea is that you don't need to chew on HTML to get the listings. See XMLTV [ic.ac.uk].

      Now that I have some free time on my hands, I think I'm going to start that home PVR project based on XMLTV. You don't need to sacrifice useability either, as there is code out there for on-screen menuing [cadsoft.de]. Nice.

    • Software TiVo replacement (Score:2, Interesting)

      by lga ( 172042 )

      I can't afford a TiVo myself, although I would love one. I do have a software solution on a PC however.

      I use Showshifter from http://www.showshifter.com [showshifter.com] to watch, record and pause tv. Add Digiguide from http://www.digiguide.co.uk [digiguide.co.uk] to this, and you now have the option to click on a program and choose "record in showshifter". Using an ATI all-in-wonder 128 card I can output the whole lot to my TV, and showshifter can use my remote control. Showshifter can also play back DVD's, CD's and MP3's, although it does need some improvement.

      The cost of this? Five pounds per year for digiguide. The main drawback is that this software is only available under windows, but I do most of my work on other computers running linux and irix, so it's not too big a problem.

      All in all I get slightly more functionality than a TiVo, but at a cost of being more complicated and having far more wires. I also hate to think of the total cost including the PC, but I already had that. I think what I really want is not a TiVo, but a PC in a low profile black case that can sit on top of my video. Armed with showshifter and digiguide ported to linux, I would end up with a far more functional box. I think I have just given myself a project to work on, haven't I.....

      Steve.

    • ReplayTV (Score:4, Informative)

      by gvonk ( 107719 ) <slashdot@gar[ ]tvonk.com ['ret' in gap]> on Sunday March 03, 2002 @12:12PM (#3101277) Homepage
      ReplayTV doesn't have a subscription cost.

      Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream, but fwiw, there's no cost. (I have a Tivo.)

      • >Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream,


        new units, maybe?


        hawk

      • Re:ReplayTV (Score:2, Insightful)

        by JLouder ( 203304 )
        Not that I don't wonder about a company with no continuing revenue stream, but fwiw, there's no cost.

        TV manufacturers don't make us pay each month for the privilege of watching the set we bought, and they seem to be doing just fine.
        • Nor do TV manufacturers provide us with anything. That's the network, who DOES have a revenue stream. It doesn't cost Sony anything for me to still have my functioning TV. However, with ReplayTV, they have promised you a service for the lifetime of the machine with no way to pay for it besides your single initial outlay.
  • Seems like this should spure a rise in the hacked TiVo market...I've seen it done. You can get free Tivo and DirectTV for life with a little technical know-how and some extra components. Copy-protection going right out the window with DirectTV/TiVo comin in for free...

    • [sarcasm]

      Because it's more than fair to pirate a satellite signal. After all, they intrude on my property by broadcasting!

      [/sarcasm]

      This is the most common argument given by satellite pirates. $50/mo. for over three-hundred channels is not going to break the average consumer, especially those with enough money to be investing in satellite hacking equipment.

      Guess where DirecTV receives the funding to launch their satellites? That's right, the consumer who pays for their service. I'm not an advocate of the DMCA or SSSCA. In fact, I am strongly opposed to both, as well as the latest copy protection methods. However, by pirating DirecTV, you're merely depriving a person like yourself of an income.

      That's right, freeloader. CEOs aren't the ones laid off due to lack of funding. You aren't benevolent to society; if anything, you're keeping the cost of DirecTV higher. With more subscribers, they can provide you with more content and keep costs lower.

      Inevitably, somebody will respond to this comment with "how is this any different with the RIAA?" It is. DirecTV is merely a content provider; they don't generate it (except for channels 100, 200, 201, and the other DirecTV customer information channels) and you certainly get something for your money when you subscribe (instead of the RIAA, where you pay $18 for a CD that costs $1 to manufacture comprised of filler plus one single that you actually like). Also, my DTV receiver doesn't restrict me in any way from recording my favorite TV shows.

      In conclusion, as a DirecTV subscriber since 1997, I've experienced nothing but friendly, competent people working at their company. People who are negligably different from yourself; people who certainly aren't deservant of losing their primary source of income because of thousands of penny pinching freeloaders.
      • This is the most common argument given by satellite pirates. $50/mo. for over three-hundred channels is not going to break the average consumer, especially those with enough money to be investing in satellite hacking equipment.

        I do not want to get into the piracy argument, but I do want to point out that sat hacking gear is not expensive: you can start hacking echostar for less than $50, assuming you have a computer to maintain the gadget with... so you can't fairly say that $50/month is comparable to the cost of the hacker gear. It's not, it's a hell of a lot more. There is a substantial savings for pirates. (though in the case of Echostar maintaining a minimal sub makes things easier.)

      • Don't know about DirecTV itself, but acording to this article:

        http://gilder.com/americanSpectatorArticles/Lessig /Control.htm

        Cable TV was born stealing the content of others and re-selling that content to consumers. Suppliers of cable services would set up an antenna, capture the commercial broadcasts made by television stations, and then resell those broadcasts to their customers. The copyright holders did not like this "theft." Twice they asked the Supreme Court to shut it down. Twice the Court said no. So it fell to Congress to strike a balance between cable TV and copyright holders. Congress in turn followed the model set by player pianos: Cable TV had to pay for the content it broadcast, but the content holders did not have an absolute right to grant or deny the right to broadcast its content.

      • I pay $45/mo for crap (Score:4, Insightful)

        by SpinyNorman ( 33776 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @12:13PM (#3101279)
        BASIC cable costs me $45/mo from Comcast.

        I'm seriously considering cancelling it. I don't watch enough TV to justify $500/yr.

        Too bad there's no real "basic" option (other than broadcast) at a more reasonable price.

      • Haven't the courts upheld that particular piece of "sarcasm"?

        Or did they turn around on it again, being essentially a tool of The Man?

        --Blair

  • Lifetime subs just got cheaper, though... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ncc74656 ( 45571 ) <scott@alfter.us> on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:24AM (#3100602) Homepage Journal
    ...for a limited time, the cost of a lifetime subscription has dropped from $250 to $200. Maybe they're trying to get people to switch to lifetime service. It potentially means less money for TiVo in the long run, but a shot in the arm right now.
    • The $199 lifetime subscription promotion is valid only for units that had an active monthly subscription to the TiVo service as of 11:59pm PST on February 25, 2002 -- the day before the price increase was initially announced on the TiVo Community Forum [tivocommunity.com] by TiVo spokesperson Richard Bullwinkle.
    • If you look at their policy on their web page --
      TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.
      Lovely! I can pay $200 today, and the service can disappear tomorrow -- because 1) the company folded or 2) because they felt like it. If they do fold, I doubt that whomever acquires the bits will continue offering service `for free' just because we paid `somebody else'.

      And according to what other posters said, it sounds like they WILL be going out of business, sooner rather than later (because they're losing lots of money.)

    • Holy cow! Do the math!

      I just grabbed my TI-83 calculator, told it to assume the average TiVo customer was with them for 3 years (? I've had my VCR 5 years), told it that lifetime subscriptions (also 3 years -- they don't transfer to new units purchased last I checked) are going for $200, or that you can pay $12.95/month. What's the interest rate they need to have on that $200 to make the same amount of money?

      73%. I'll take that any day.

      Now, with the old system, which i think was $9.95/month or $250 for lifetime, that was only 27%. Reasonable for a legit company.

      When lifetime rates go back up to $250, to equal that ROI they'd have to get 50%. Only.

      Let's throw away the 3 year assumption. It's pretty rough on the company, possibly.

      Say they get the credit card 9.99% that's flogging my mailbox now: the $250 and $12.99/month goes almost 21 months.

      I realize that promotions that generate customers are hard to quantify in terms of ROI, but just looking at these numbers tells you what it's worth to them to get those lifers (if they think you'll have the same unit for over 2 years or so). If you really like TiVo, and aren't sure where to go, it's certainly worth your while to get the lifetime subscription (if you're looking at more than 21 months or so). TiVo apparently thinks it's worth theirs, too. If, on the other hand, you're sticking with them for less than 21 months (or will purchase a new unit between now and then), go monthly. Even if they raise their rates to $14.95/month tomorrow, that's still almost 18 months out to break even with $250 lifetime. Of course, if your only other debt is a home mortgage at 6.99% (lucky you!), the breakeven point for 250/$12.95 is 20 months out.

      My parents have had the same Hitachi VCR since 1992. If they had gone lifetime then ($200 promotion) and avoided the $12.95 a month (ignoring the fact that TiVo wasn't around then), a TiVo like company would have to get a 83% return on them.

      How long do you think they estimate the average customer sticks around? You're really handing them money if you give them $200 for a lifetime and it dies after the 1 year warranty. Even a 0% investment would pay the $200/$12.95 tradeoff in 15 months (12 months is actually a -51% interest rate!).

    • remember that lifetime means the lifetime of that Tivo unit... as deemed by them. and I bet that their definition of lifetime is less than 5 years.

      Lifetime subs are a scam. everyone knows this.

    • Re: Lifetime subs (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Scryber ( 244784 )
      I got my Tivo last April. Based on the cost of monthly subscription versus lifetime membership at that time, I decided that a lifetime membership was the best course. Basically, I would have to use/own the Tivo for 20 months for that investment to be worthwhile.

      Well I've totally fallen in love with Tivo, and now have only 9 months left for the membership to have paid for itself. Will I still be using it then? I don't doubt it for a second. Tivo isn't going anywhere, not with their partnership with Sony, plus the pending merger of DirecTV and EchoStar.

      Is it wise to get a lifetime subscription today? I think that even today that would be a good deal, as it safeguards you against further price increases, but YMMV. Do the math and determine if you think you will be using the device for at least two years--usually a good bet with most devices.

      BTW, even if Tivo were to fold, it would not mean we would all have useless Tivo boxes. On the Tivo forums one of the Tivo techs has made it clear that in the event of Tivo's demise, he will personally provide the backdoor code to "free" the Tivo from the subscription services. Presumably this means the Tivo would function just as it does today but without any further software updates.

  • What about features? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TeddyR ( 4176 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:27AM (#3100607) Homepage Journal
    I was just looking at the TiVO web page recently and noticed that they were pushing the version 2 of the recorder. (With USB ports for future expansion)

    My question is why not Firewire?

    Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives. They can also make the device communicate with a PC easier where it acts as a "camera"; of course these very same suggestions might get them into "hotter" water with the Media companies..

    If they had a Tivo that had the firewire features, the rate increase may be worth it... but as of now... nope...

    • Re:What about features? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ez76 ( 322080 )
      Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives. They can also make the device communicate with a PC easier where it acts as a "camera"; of course these very same suggestions might get them into "hotter" water with the Media companies..

      If they had a Tivo that had the firewire features, the rate increase may be worth it... but as of now... nope...
      So let me get this straight ... you're eager to hook up hundreds (thousands?) of dollars of digital video equipment and storage devices to your Tivo so you can use it as an overdeveloped video database, but an additional $3 per month for the service is too rich for your blood?

      Do you own a Tivo?
    • Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives.

      Yes, but I think Tivo would rather limit what you can do, so you have to buy another Tivo when you want more space. Of course, they haven't managed to prevent swapping hard drives.
      • Having an external firewire connection to me makes MUCH more sense in that they can use to for additional storage for drives.
        Yes, but I think Tivo would rather limit what you can do, so you have to buy another Tivo when you want more space. Of course, they haven't managed to prevent swapping hard drives.
        Yet.

        It would be a trivial operation to have the OS report back storage space and check if that is in line with the model (derived from the serial number.) While TiVo has let lots of hacking go on they've never (to my knowledge) in any way communicated this was something they supported or wouldn't shut down the day they felt the cost/benefit ratio was in their favor.

        I'm not saying they're likely to but don't fool yourself; tomorrow they could cut those folks off, release a patch that limits machines to their proper size, does checks on the OS to make sure it isn't hacked, etc. Sure it would piss off many of TiVo's most ardent supporters but remember TiVo is going for the consumer electronics model of business, not the computer end of it.

        I'm likely to buy an "upgraded" TiVo myself at some point but I'll do so knowing full well that it's at my own risk and there are no guarantees (like the 3rd party folks won't fold up 30 minutes after the shit hits the fan?)

        • I agree with you on this. One thing that's a little scary is that it's connecting to their server every morning, and who knows what it could be downloading.

          I'm thinking of buying an All-in-Wonder Radeon 7500. Not too expensive. Comes with a wireless remote. And they give you the TV listing info for free. And, of course, you can attach as many hard drives as you want. Of course, there's also the new HDTV recorder card for $399. But I don't like that they encrypt what you record...
    • Not many people have firewire. They would severely limit the market for their products (which frankly is already limited in terms of connecting to a computer). I don't know if this is possible, but could they have somehow set things up for future support of USB2? This would then be 1) useful for many consumers as is, and 2) upgradable to a much higher speed that competes with firewire.
    • My question is why not Firewire?

      I know this is getting horribly off topic, but needs to be addressed. One of the reasons might be that Apple charges a licensing royalty per port.

      • The fee for FireWire is only $1 per port. That's it. I don't think that would seriously affect the price of a $700 box (Series 2).

        Firewire is the standard now. The ports on Series2 TiVos are USB, but not USB2. So they're limited to 11MBps, which is too slow for data storage. It's mainly useful for easily adding a network adapter, but you can do that to old TiVos already using TivoNet.
    • Actually, as a Tivo subscriber, I got an email a month or two ago about new units that they will be shipping later this year (and of course a "special deal" on them), and the units are going to have USB ports on the back of them.

      The email stated that these ports were going to be for peripheral attachment, but it did not specify what those peripherals were going to be.

  • what are we gonna do about it? tivo needs the $... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jaredcat ( 223478 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:28AM (#3100610)
    I've been a Tivo subscriber for a while... I was pretty pissed when I received an email from TiVo about the rate increase, but its not like there is anything I can do about it. So why piss and moan?

    There are basically two options available for me as a TiVo subscriber: $9.95/month (now $12.95/month), or $199 (or $249 off-season) for a lifetime subscription, which is the lifetime of the TiVo, not the subscriber. So of course, it only makes sense to get the month-to-month subscription, as who can predict if they will still have the same TiVo box 15-19 months from now?

    Also, TiVo is BLEEDING money. They have never had a profitible quarter-- losing between $50 MILLION and $34 MILLION net for every quarter that they have posted [yahoo.com] so far. According to their published #'s, without some serious additional financing, TiVo will be out of cash in a year. I can't really blame them for increasing their service fees...

  • Service? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bartab ( 233395 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:39AM (#3100627)
    Of course, TiVo service is what makes a TiVo more attractive than a plain recorder anyhow.

    What service is that exactly? TV Guide? The one I get free off the satellite dish? Even on the standalone boxes (of which I still own one) you can get TV guide date for $20-30 a year. The only "service" received from TiVo is based in their blocking my choice of where to get TV guide data from. In other words: In support of a poor business plan. I only paid for one year of service with my nearly new DirecTiVo, on the assumption that the company will go out of business and I will lose my already limited reluctance to use the existing hacks to avoid paying for the DTiVo.

  • Here we go again... (Score:3, Funny)

    by caferace ( 442 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:41AM (#3100629) Homepage
    a) Go ahead and homebrew your own PVR. Whe the quality of features matches TiVo for the price, size, and esthetics of the unit, give me a call. I'll buy one.

    b) You simply cannot match the features (and AI) currently offered by the TiVo service by attempting to hack into various online listing databases..

    c) Once your piehole is shut, remember to breathe through your nose.

    • Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Bartab ( 233395 )
      b) You simply cannot match the features (and AI) currently offered by the TiVo service by attempting to hack into various online listing databases..

      These features of the "service" are in fact features of the software already on the box at time of purchase. All the TiVo "service" does is download the tv listing for your area and television service.

      This is obvious with a DirecTiVo. An unhacked, never opened box fully subscribed can be unplugged from the phone line. After 30 days, it will complain that it hasn't verified your continued service and will shut off, but until that time you will have full guide data, which it gets off the dish, and the full scheduling service.

      Furthermore, no hacking of "various online listing databases" is needed, you can purchase the data for between $20-30 a year. The only difficulty is getting the data into the TiVo itself. Of course that's only necessary with the standalone units.

  • Slashdot Service Cost Rising (Score:5, Funny)

    by Joe Rumsey ( 2194 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:42AM (#3100632)
    It just might make the hassle of a homebrewed weblog a little more attractive. Of course, Slashdot service is what makes Slashdot more attractive than a plain weblog anyhow.

  • What am I gonna do about it? I 'm gonna pay... (Score:5, Funny)

    by po8 ( 187055 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @04:58AM (#3100667)

    For my household, I see no sensible alternative here. We had a bargain, but... they are altering the bargain. I will pray that they do not alter it any further.

    • For my household, I see no sensible alternative here. We had a bargain, but... they are altering the bargain. I will pray that they do not alter it any further.

      I don't know why the parent was moderated as funny, it is a fair statment. However, TiVo is a company that is in business to make money, in order to do this they provide a service. Like most business, they must occasionally raise prices to keep up with the raising costs of doing business. This is especially important to a company like TiVo, which has yet to turn a profit. I personally feel $12.95 a month is perfectly reasonable for easy TV recording, but to be honest, I own two TiVo's and paid for the lifetime subscription on both, and this is what I recommend.

  • "It's a reflection of the cost to deliver the service on an ongoing basis," a TiVo spokeswoman told Reuters. "We have delivered multiple upgrades and new features, and haven't raised prices."

    Recently, I've had my trusty TiVo reboot twice while recording shows, give me VERY noticable compression glitches, and a slew of other lesser bugs. All of these problems seem to have happened after the 2.5.x upgrade.

    Hell, yeah, TiVo needs 30% more of my money -- they've given me at least 30% more bugs!!!

    Anyway, I've been an avid TiVo fan and I evangelize the service to all of my friends and family, but now, it's getting too expensive for most people to "risk" trying it. That was always the biggest obstacle to getting anyone to try a TiVo: "Well, you mean I have to drop $300 on the machine AND pay $10/month to use it??? No way... the free TV guide in the newspaper and my old VCR work just fine!"

    As for myself, I think I'll just look into the RePlay boxes (or whatever they're called) since at least I'll get some updated hardware for the monthly cost...

    • More likely your hard drive is failing. I had upgraded to an 80GB Seagate ST380020A 5400RPM which worked fine for about 4-5 weeks, then I started getting spontaneous reboots and capture glitches. I've replaced that drive with a pair of Maxtors and all is well again. (I followed the instructions at http://www.newreleasesvideo.com/hinsdale-how-to/ [newreleasesvideo.com] in an afternoon.)

      Hard drives are physical devices and while they may test ok from a storage device perspective, that doesn't necessarily mean they can push data at a steady enough data rate for the DirecTiVO to record two data streams and play back a third.

      If this was Wednesday night a couple weeks ago with a DirecTiVO, it wasn't your TiVO that flaked out, but DirecTV making a mess of the local channels again. They are getting so aggressive in their anti-piracy measures that it's starting to affect paying customers.

      Also if you're on DirecTV, you may be seeing compression glitches that are the result of DirecTV's aggressive compression. With DirecTiVO, the unit just stores the data stream from the satellite and doesn't recompress the data. Those glitches are the result of signal errors (very rare) and severe bit rate compression (quite common.) Alas, the bit rate problem won't go away as long as DTV is trying to push so many channels without having a lot more bandwidth available.

      A final possibility if you are getting periods of jerky/pausing playback is that the garbage collection/reindexing tasks are running. After a few weeks of comparing the logs to the periods when I have playback problems I've noticed that GC/reindex of large drives takes 10-20 minutes, during which playback is unreliable. The unit is smart enough to schedule these tasks to run when no recordings are scheduled, so your recordings are safe.

  • 30% so what. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CMiYC ( 6473 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @05:12AM (#3100681) Homepage
    I think it would have been better to say TiVo's service cost is rising from $9.95/mo to $12.95/mo. It sounds far better than "increase by 30%." Its only another $3/mo, and that's only another $36/yr. I'm pretty sure most subscribers, myself included, can handle another $36.

    I won't homebrew my own because I am not just paying $12.95/mo for TV Guide data. TiVo has a lot of power in its software to handle that data. It seems to me that if you want a peice of software to record TV shows automatically (based on what you like), track when shows move, allow you to watch a show while its still recording, continually record liveTV, and update itself (to fix bugs and add new features) without any intervention on your part what-so-ever, then have fun writing it. If you want to do that, fine. Stop wasting time by posting and go do it. I, on the other hand, bought TiVo and pay for its service because its extremely convenient. It only took me about 15 minutes to set it up. How long is your homebrew going to take? I get free software upgrades to an already excellent UI/system while I'm sleeping. Can you code in your sleep?

    I don't personally don't watch TV on my computer, nor will I put a computer in my living room so that I can. You get a lot for $12.95/mo. Not just guide data. You get a system supported by a company well deserving of another $3/mo. (BTW, a company I now understand why sent out TiVo Window clings last month...)

    • Re:30% so what. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Mike McCune ( 18136 )
      Also, if you think the service is too expensive, don't use it. The manual recording option works just like a regular VCR and no service is required. I found this out last month when my credit card expired and someone in the billing department screwed up. I had to manually enter the date, time and channel for a few weeks. It is not as convient as the "season pass manager" but if you are too cheap to pay for the service at least you have the option to do it yourself.
    • The only problem with relying on TiVo and their automatic software updates is the same problem with any proprietary format. Everyone knows about the problem with Web services and keeping your vital company data on somebody else's platform. What happens if they go out of business? What happens is they decide you shouldn't have access any more because of a bill dispute?

      Same with TiVo. While they may be more benign now, what happens if they go under, or get bought up? An automatic update overnight and boom -- no more access to those shows you had saved from 2 years ago.

      Most TV isn't worth seeing in the first place, let alone saving, but if I were to roll my own, it would be for that reason.
    • Sorry to tell you, but yes, you're paying $13 just for guide data. Everything is else is just software that already exists on your Tivo that gets magically enabled because you're paying. It's like having the "Search" feature built in MS Windows disabled (greyed out) because I am not paying $xx/month for it.

      as far as the software downloads, they fit in two categories in my book:
      1. bug fixes, which should be free
      2. new features, which if you really really want, you should just pay a one time upgrade fee (think of it as buying a windows upgrade) and not having to pay a flat (but sometimes encreasing, apparently) fee to get them.

      Just my $0.02 - if paying $13/month for guide data is acceptable to you, great for you and great for TiVo! It's certainly their right to do this, but I will not take any part of it...

      • Re:yes, just guide data (Score:3, Informative)

        by Cramer ( 69040 )
        Tivo has to pay for the guide data, so they pass that cost on to the subscribers. Just because you (or any individual average Joe) can go collect TV guide information from any number of on-line sites to be feed into your tivo doesn't mean you can offer that data ("service") to everyone for free. Tivo certainly cannot do that. (The contents of those web sites are protected by copyright for which you have no right to redistribute.)

        Basically, what you do with their data in the privacy of your own home for your personal amuzement is totally your business. However, what you do with their data in the privacy of someone else's home, is very much their business.
        • I am not claiming that the guide info should be free, merely that unlike what the previous poster claims, Tivo users are paying $13/month for the guide info.

          Now, since you brought it up, let's discuss what guide information should cost. Or rather, what I would be willing to pay for it: maybe a buck per week. If Tivo can't provide that for that price, they should make their software in such a way that I could retreive from other willing services for less or free (i.e. the cable companies already broadcast guide info where I live - I have digital cable). But of course, they're never gonna do that because that would be killing their (potential) cash cow.

  • TiVo Redux (Score:5, Insightful)

    by maggard ( 5579 ) <michael@michaelmaggard.com> on Sunday March 03, 2002 @05:27AM (#3100702) Homepage Journal
    Oh great, here we go again.

    Before posting "What does TiVo service offer?" just howzabout going to their website and looking it up for yourself? They do a lot better job then having a bunch of /.'ers put it in their own words. www.tivo.com [tivo.com]

    Next before saying "I can do that!" no, you really can't. Not in a nice box with a good remote and trick-play and quality recording with some exemplarily expert system software all hassle-free. Yes you can cobble together some Frankenstein of a solution that will get you 70%, mebbe 80% of the way there but it's those final few steps that make the whole thing a pleasure to use and not some annoyingly geeky custom half-solution.

    Will we see these stand-alone devices superceded by PC-based ones? Mebbe, mebbe not. First off folks like to watch TV on their TVs, not on their computers (yes some of you don't, I'm talking the majority.) They want to sit on their couch with a remote in hand without cables strung across the house from the PC and be able to click the shows they want with minimum hassle. That doesn't describe most of the PC-based systems that we're hearing about.

    Next there's the question is it preferable to make your great-as-a-PC PC do double-duty as a PVR? Sure the network connection is already there but in most cases the rest of the wiring (TV-in, TV-out, Audio out, IR-in, etc.) is a major PITA. Then there's just the hassle of having a heavy-load application running on your un-optimized hardware. Do-able? Mostly. Worth it? Likely not IMHO.

    Lastly comes the question of the listings. This is where TiVo and the like really differ from a VCR - they're SMART. That smartness is based on having those current detailed listings customized to your local system & tier and no, that information isn't easy to come by. Yes it might be possible to try and snarf the listings out of TV Guide or someone but that's brittle and if enough folks did it they'd soon find ways to break it. Given that along with these listings come software updates and tech support and such it's likely that they're not all that bad a deal.

    So - is TiVo gonna make it? Probably. They just got another round of financing, have lots of investment from the right folks, seem to be doing well in spite of the uphill battle of teaching folks just what their product is. The price hike isn't a great thing but with the lifetime-offer price still being offered for a short time that takes the sting out and once folks go TiVo they really don't want to go back, will pony up. Next fall we'll likely see more companies coming out with more licensed models and possibly another design but for now its TiVo & Replay.

  • lifetime service (Score:2, Interesting)

    by PhuCknuT ( 1703 )
    Am I the only one here who bought lifetime service? When I got it, people thought i was crazy for paying for it when tivo could go out of businiess any day now. That was 2 years ago, and the lifetime has already paid for itself (in terms of monthly fees), and I've still got the same tivo (although now with 200 hours, a network card, and a memory upgrade). The service is absolutely worth it.

    • Am I the only one here who bought lifetime service?

      Nope, I have two TiVo's and two lifetime subscriptions. I figure even if TiVo starts to go under, someone will buy them out. I am suprised someone hasn't already, TiVo is an idea whose time has come. Like it or not, this is the future and the content providers need to embrace this, not try to litigate it out of existance. If the cable comapnies want more control, all they have to do is license the technology (or buy out the company) from TiVo or Replay and integrate the function into thier cable boxes, minus the fast fowrward and add $4.95 to the customers bill.

    • In September 2000 [Plug: right after reading about the rebates in a Slashdot(TM) comment!] I bought a Tivo for $300, lifetime for (I think) $200, and then got a $100 rebate from Tivo and a $100 rebate from Philips. Net expenses: $300, and so far the box has been trouble-free. Pretty good deal!

      That said, in spite of how much I've enjoyed it, I would love to replace it with a $2000 machine that is "Free" and does the same thing. ;-)

  • Original (informal) Announcement (Score:3, Informative)

    by John_McKee ( 100458 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @05:37AM (#3100709) Homepage
    Here is the orignal (informal) announcement with some Q and A:

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread. ph p?s=&threadid=47571
  • Hey,

    First off, I don't think that $12.95 a month is a lot worse than $9.95 a month. When I get a TiVo I will happily pay that much.

    The OT part: I want to get a DirectTV thing with a DirectTiVo thing. The local stores either have NO iea what I'm talking about (Best Buy) or think I should spend $750 on special dishes and receivers (Audio King). Not to mention I need to add a few HDDs (;

    You can get DirectTV for practically free after rebates if you get just the standard receiver and a standard dish - the receiver+dish cost $50 anyway and there's free installation. I understand that a DirectTiVo setup would cost more - but $700 more?

    The only DirectTiVo receivers I saw anywhere are the pretty expensive Sony ones at Audio King, who are known for price-inflation. Best Buy had 'Ultimate TV' which they claim is the same thing as TiVo, but (A) Says 'Microsoft' on it, and (B) lacks features I want and contains features I don't need.

    I see a lot of comments from people mentioning DirectTiVo - what's the deal with the thing? Any decent online resources (TiVo.com didn't help much)? Is it REALLY that expensive?

    • My Phillips DSR6000 cost me $499.00 new almost two years ago. I bought it from Good Guys the first day it was available. I see it priced at $319.00 for first time subscribers from Satellites Unlimited [satellites-unlimited.com]. $700 is way beyond the pale. The Sony unit ought to be able to actually read your mind for that price (since the DSR6000 can seem to do so for half that much! :)

      Ultimate TV is not TiVo at all. It's not Linux, it's Windows for one thing. I do not know if it is hackable or upgradeable, but the TiVo units - including the DSR6000 - certainly are. I am enjoying 225 hours of recording time after I did the upgrade this past weekend. That's enough to hold the entire run of Babylon 5, plus Crusade, plus all the B5 movies, and still have more than 3 times the space left over as compared to the unit before the upgrade. But if I were to do it again, I would not use 7200rpm drives, they are too noisy (but they were on sale - $189 for 120Gb WD disks! Wow!).

      • Thanks for your reply. One thing I'll mention though -

        $700 is way beyond the pale. The Sony unit ought to be able to actually read your mind for that price
        The Sony receiver isn't $700 on it's own - the eliptical dish with the dual thinggie makes up about $200 of that price. Although Audio Kind are price gougers.
    • At Best Buy, on sale, the day after Xmas. I got the Hughes unit, but other units are generally about the same price or even sometimes cheaper. The Hughes unit is model # GXCEBOT, Phillips has the DSR6000, and there are others. Your local Best Buy should carry it even if they haven't the slightest what it is, or you can get it from various online outfits. Check out American Satellite [americansatellite.com] for good info. Prices seem OK too.
    • Tivo.com has links to some stores, including http://www.americansatellite.com/products/list.asp ?affl=NT99120101&id=106&CAT=13306&mfg=philips from their 'specials' page.

      I got 2 phillips DSR6000s from them. One was $99.99, then I waited a couple weeks, and the price went up to $109.99. Still a good price, considering the walmart down the street had them in stock for $399.99. "No, we don't match prices from the internet!" they cheerily replied when I asked about buying one at a reduced cost. No wonder they had an inch of dust on them - they'll NEVER shift them at that price.

      You say "what's the deal with the thing?" The deal is it's a great replacement reciever if you have DirecTV already. It's really INEXPENSIVE actually, compared to retail standalone Tivo devices.
      • I got my equipment from American Satellite [americansatellite.com]. They provided excellent, timely service and good prices. When the so-called "Ultimate" TV proved to be anything but and did the ever-popular spontaneous M$ crash, ASE cheerfully let me exchange it for a TiVO. As this was within a few weeks of the original purchase, they gave me full credit towards the TiVO, treating it as an RMA with no restocking fee. All it cost was the price difference between the units and the shipping charges to send the UTV back to them.

        The only hassle I had was over a dish cover, and even for that they did a good job of getting the problem straightened out. Both I and they were frustrated by the time I got the cover I originally ordered, but with all the shipping charges they lost money rather than letting a customer go away unhappy.

        No, I don't work for them, own stock, have relatives who work there, etc. I was just really impressed with how far they went to ensure I was happy with the equipment I ordered.

  • Not to big of a deal IMO (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SquierStrat ( 42516 ) on Sunday March 03, 2002 @07:12AM (#3100807) Homepage
    It's 3 dollars. Really folks, 3 Dollars. :-) That's one less bag of potatoe chips you can buy a month. Let's face it, there is such a thing as inflation, et cetera, eventually they had to increase the price. Three years without a price hike is pretty freaking good!
    • It's staying at $249. So now, the lifetime pays for itself in about 19 months as opposed to 25. :-)

      TiVo will certainly still be around in 2 years. I've done everything but print up my own brochures to explain just how wonderful it is to all of my friends, and most people who've taken the plunge are the same way.

      ~Philly
    • Let's face it, there is such a thing as inflation

      According to the Bureau of Labor [bls.gov], inflation was 2.7% in 1999, 3.5% in 2000, and 3.7% in 2001. So, altogether, a $9.99 service should cost $11.01, a 10% price hike. If inflation is 4% from now on, then the price should hit $13 sometimes in 2006.

      It's also worth noting that the CPI uses a fixed basket of goods, and therefore has a tendancy to overstate inflaion (if the price of beef goes through the roof, you'll probably eat more pork, but the CPI will still factor in the full impact of the spike in beef prices).

  • Problems with homebrew PVR (Score:3, Informative)

    by lkaos ( 187507 ) <[anthony] [at] [codemonkey.ws]> on Sunday March 03, 2002 @11:36AM (#3101172) Homepage Journal
    For quite some time I've wanted to make a homebrew PVR. In fact, I shelled out quite a bit attempting to make one. Here are the basic problems:

    1) TIVO and ReplayTV technologies all have built in MPEG encoder/decoder cards. In the US, such cards simply do not exist. There are MPEG decoder cards, but they are barely supported in Linux.

    2) TV-OUT technology simply doesn't exist in the US for Linux. The most promising technology is with the ATI-AIW card. I have heard some folks have mixed success using a framebuffer but in framebuffer mode, all video acceleration is lost.

    3) It takes an _aweful_ lot of processor power to perform real-time MPEG-encoding. Larger processors also bring high heat and require more cooling and bigger cases.

    4) Cost is just enormous. An ATI AIW is around $250 and then throw in another $250 for a HD, then throw in the cost of the other pieces and you end up with a solution costing well over 1K. CD-R only inflates that number.

    As long as all manufactors are keeping the specs to their hardware closed, homebrewed PVRs are just not possible. Hardware is desperately needed to complete the solution.

    ATI was working on a set-top motherboard but I do not know if it was targetted at consumers or OEMs. Maybe some enterprising hardware geek out there will whip up a custom StrongARM-based single board with built in S-Video out and MPEG encoding/decoding...
    • Well let's start from the beginning....


      1) TIVO and ReplayTV technologies all have built in MPEG encoder/decoder cards. In the US, such cards simply do not exist. There are MPEG decoder cards, but they are barely supported in Linux.

      2) TV-OUT technology simply doesn't exist in the US for Linux. The most promising technology is with the ATI-AIW card. I have heard some folks have mixed success using a framebuffer but in framebuffer mode, all video acceleration is lost.

      WRONG.... Hollywood+ and Creative DXR3 both awesome Mpeg decoder cards that can play a broadcast quality Mpeg2 on a Pentium 133 without MMX. better video out than I've seen on ANY video card with tv out. The drivers are awesome and I use ut every day.

      As for a Mpeg encoder card.... True for anyone who wont pay $2K but who cares? buy a BTTV compatable card use Nupple video and a Old junky P-II333 and record freely and well.

      couple that hardware with a ACT-allwell box and you have a set-top box ready to be a TiVo killer with some creative programming in perl coupled with PicoGUI or pure SDL programming.

      $250.00 for a HD? why?? I paid $89.00 for my 40 gig drive sitting on myu desk.. if 40hours is not enough to start with then please go away. Hardware wise I can do it WITH the Allwell box for less than $499.00 no you dont get 90 bajillion recording hours at greater than DVD quality... you get some pretty heavy compression but it ends up better than VHS. and that is the reason for it... not archive use but my entertainment to watch battlebots and Junkyard wars (and Invader ZIM!) I dont want to watch those shows in 1080i HDTGV quality with full digital 6.1 surround.. and anyone that would needs therapy.

      so please, go out and build it... it's easy, fun, and you aren't crippled with the mother company schackles... but you probably will be a felon for owning a copywrite breaking device that will probably have the death penalty attached to it soon.

      • WRONG.... Hollywood+ and Creative DXR3 both awesome Mpeg decoder cards that can play a broadcast quality Mpeg2 on a Pentium 133 without MMX. better video out than I've seen on ANY video card with tv out. The drivers are awesome and I use ut every day.

        Let me rephrase, there are MPEG decoder cards, but barely any of them are supported in Linux.

        As for a Mpeg encoder card.... True for anyone who wont pay $2K but who cares? buy a BTTV compatable card use Nupple video and a Old junky P-II333 and record freely and well.

        I know on an Athlon 650 I was only getting mid 20 frames per second when recording MPEG real-time. Even with hardware iDCT (the specs for which are not open by ATI), ATI still recommends a PIII 750 in order to obtain the highest quality recording.

        You could probably get away with a PII-333 if you didn't care much about quality, but for software compression, you just need a faster processor than that.

        BTW: Been a while since I went HD shopping... I would definitely want more than 40GB though.

        I am amazed at this AllWell box. What kind of FPS are you getting with it?? What is the bitrate and is it all software encoding?
        • go to

          http://mars.tuwien.ac.at/~roman/nuppelvideo/

          and you will find all you need to know.

          the Allwell box is just a computer it has nothing special in it other than a chjeap BTTV card I put in it, and the Hollywood+ card I scabbed onto their video switcher. No OSD overlaid over the movie, but who cares.. I get the OSD when I pause or stop.
          I am going to release the project when I get things stable and beat the snot out of one of the developers I am working with that thinks he's gonna make millions by forcing the project closed. (He'll sign the GPL or I reposess the computer,monitor, and car I loaned him.)
        • forgot one thing..

          Why do you have to encode Mpeg realtime? is there a huge need to do that?
          I encode as raw and then after recording start the raw->mpeg2 conversion. This allows another show to be recorded.. and has only one drawback.. I have to wait 15 minutes after a show stops recording before I can watch it.

  • for us poor students... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by supernova87a ( 532540 ) <kepler1@@@hotmail...com> on Sunday March 03, 2002 @11:54AM (#3101224)
    You know, no one is *forcing* you to get the service.

    I bought a 20 hour Tivo in December, upgraded it to 80 hours on my own, and have been using it without service since then. I still think it's great!

    Sure, service would be nice, I would get to see the program names and scroll through tv guides, but I'm still happy without it. TIvo records the same programs for me every day (I set it manually to repeat), and it does perfectly well for me.

    Maybe when I start making some more money, I'll justify paying another monthy fee to some company, but not now. I'm already fed up with those cable, telephone, etc. companies.
  • A while ago, I did a quick NPV calculation on whether you ought to do the monthly scheme or the lifetime subscription. It was a while ago, but used $250 for the liftime sub and $10 for monthly. It also did yearly, but that option has gone away.

    Anyway, although I didn't count the end value of the box at the end of the lifetime sub, the point at which the two plans cost the same amount was about 18 months. I'd think, with the new scheme, that the break even point would be shorter, say, 14 months or so. Notably, the yearly sub never made sense.

    End result: If you're planning on keeping that specific TiVo for more than a year and a half, you're probably better off with the lifetime sub.

    Besides, 30% of not much is even less....

  • something new? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Alien Being ( 18488 )
    About 5 this morning, i was surfing the tv and came across a channel that seemed to be trasferring tivo information.

    The screen had vertical black bars on the left. The right was divided vertically into 2 frames which were filled with black and white square, surely a binary stream. Between the data frames, was a band with a text message something like "this channel is part of the tivo service".

    Has anyone else seen this? Is it an alternative to dialup? Does using it eliminate the need to transmit anything back to tivo? Is it free?
  • This makes the lifetime subscription even smarter. Before at the $9.95 monthly and $250 lifetime prices, it took 25 months for the lifetime subscription to pay itself off. Now, at $12.95 monthly and the $200 lifetime offer (which I jumped on very quickly), if only takes 15 months for it to pay for itself, and I know I will enjoy my Tivo for longer than 1.3 years. Don't know how we ever watched TV without it. The kids and the wife love it now that we never miss what we want to watch, and if nothing is on...go do something else!

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