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IBM

Lotus Domino for Linux goes Gold 113

Posted by justin++ from the enterprise-encroachment? dept.
The Masked Twit writes "The Lotus Domino R5 for Linux gold code has just been posted on Lotus' Notes Net site. Have fun! " We've known it's been in the works for awhile, but now it's finally here.
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Lotus Domino for Linux goes Gold More

Lotus Domino for Linux goes Gold

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  • Well check out this quick review [slashdot.org] that I did. I don't think a screenshot of a directory listing would be that salesworthy.

  • Why does the ibm logo STILL look like it's been printed on a 9 pin printer with a screwed up ribbon head? They need a new logo. "The politics of failure have failed. We need to make them work again" -- Kang
  • If you are sick of power cycling your NT servers, why don't you fix the problem?

    I've had some unstable NT servers before. They never stayed that way for longer than 14 days because I work out the problems. I replace hardware, remove offending applications, talk with Microsoft Tech, put on patches, fixes, whatever it takes to make my server stable.
  • Typically by sales dollars.

    Other ways of measuring the size are market share, # of employees, how many unique visitors your website gets, etc. Depends upon which metric is relevant to your study.

    But, as I said, the typical way is the sales dollars. For instance my company is 34 million. This makes it a small company, approaching mid size, in most people's eyes. However, out of 3,000 companies that do what we do, we are the 32nd largest, which makes us a pretty big player.
  • And btw, don't tar -zxvf it in your /usr/src directory if you have a kernel suorce in /usr/src/linux. The tar pops out to /linux... irratating for those who like to be tidy...
  • Zope and Lotus Domino are not in the same league.

    I'm not a fan of Lotus Domino - in fact, I quit my last job because my employers refused to wean themselves off Domino. But Domino is really, really powerful stuff. Zope is pretty cool, and shows tremendoues potential, but Domino really is Enterprise class software. Ugly and monstrous, and rigid in surpring (and frustrating) ways, but really, really powerful.

    Yes, I'm aware that I'm implying that Zope isn't as powerful as Lotus Domino. I don't think that's debatable. But then, Zope doesn't need to be, in order to be really good software in its own right.

    I'm not going to do a feature-list comparison, because I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm a Notes/Domino booster. But Zope and Domino are not the same type of software, even though both are occasionally called "application servers."

    My two cents...
  • A couple of weeks ago I installed RH6.1 for a major Italian bank.
    They are currently running Domino on NT servers (IBM Netfinity servers), and they are unhappy on the performance/price, so they are testing Linux on smaller servers (the server I installed is a Compaq Proliant 1600 with 256MB RAM and a Compaq SmartArray RAID controller).
    I don't know anout the States, but things are moving fast here...:)
  • So, I downloaded all the notes clients and set them up on my VMware 98 partition (actually set them up on a SAMBA share on my Linux partition and did a shared install). Domino administrator connected O.K. and I was able to change the default HTTP port to 8081 instead of 80, as this is the default and conflicts with apache. With the clients we're looking at 307MB in /usr/lotus (I put the shared clients in /usr/lotus/notesclient) and 150MB in /usr/local/notesdata. Quite a chunk for just seeing what this monster can do.

  • It obviously sounds like you've never been through "DLL HELL." If you only run one application, Exchange in your case, on an NT server, then usually you can have a very stable system that practically never goes down. BUT, if you try to run various applications from various different vendors on one box, then you're looking for trouble. I wouldn't, for example, run Exchange, Office Professional, IIS, another web proxy, may be some SQL apps, and a bunch of printers of one NT box. While you can do this with Linux with no problem, NT will most likely have MAJOR problems because different apps like to update SYSTEM dll's with their different versions. THAT's where you have a major issue.

  • Just a few comments on Notes to add to the above. Notes may be flexible, but in my humble opinion, it is an indefensibly huge resource hog. The bandwidth Notes pushes for something as simple as checking e-mail is over a dialup line makes for a teeth grinding experience second only to being on hold for Microsoft tech support. The memory footprint, as well as the client HD space required are equally huge.

    You can remember it this way-
    Exchange or Sendmail: The Concorde
    Lotus Notes: The Spruce Goose
  • Actually, you can choose to administrate the server via a browser and download only the Notes Client, Domino Designer (the app dev client) or the Administrator separately. Go to http://notes.net and click on the "Downloads" button.

    Just as a suggestion, there's an archive of the beta of Domino on Linux (http://notes.net/r5linuxforum.nsf?OpenDatabase) and new questions should be posted to the Domino Gold Forum (http://notes.net/46dom.nsf).

    Hope this helps!

    Kandango
    kandango@usa.ten
  • Something that runs on a stable OS? What's a stable OS to you? Linux? Solaris (Solaris and Intel)? AIX? HP-UX? An AS/400? OS/2? A Mainframe? Domino is the most scalable and stable groupware server there is. It runs on all these platforms. You choose.
  • There is a short article on setting up Lotus Notes/Domino on Linux at DominoPower.com (http://www.dominopower. com/issues/issue199911/linux001.html [dominopower.com]). They also have one on setting up SAMBA [dominopower.com]... Kind of nice! And no, I don't work for them, just do Lotus Notes development and everthing else involving Lotus Notes for work...
  • I'm doing same thing as you. There is a short guide at dominopower.com that is handy. To fix the "notes.ini not found" error you have to put /opt/lotus and /local/notesdata in your path for either the notes user (~/.profile)or the entire system (/etc/profile). Then it fired up ok for me. Now I have to figure out how to get in and use anything! Just have server.id and cert.id...
  • At this point, we can't be sure they haven't :-)

    I don't actually know, as I haven't loaded or run either the beta or gold code.

    However, the claim is [also] that there is not an OS/2 4.6x version of the client, even though they made clients for OS/2 previously.

    Well, as it turns out, you can copy the OS/2 server code to hard disk, edit a text file, and install will ask if you want to install the client or server.

    That *still* doesn't quite get it though. After the install, you have to add a line to the notes.ini file to get it to come up. And it does.

    I use 4.61 for OS/2 right alongside the Windows version and really can't tell a difference. If there is any, it would have to be in some of the database development areas.

    I don't know about an OS/2 Notes 5.x client, as we are not using that version yet.

    The point is though, a client for linux may exist, but it is not supported or beta tested.

  • I work in a Notes shop, a pretty big (250+ Domino servers) shop. I've done a few installs, all on NT, but mostly I get the servers once they've been set up. Still here are some pointsers to get you started.

    I don't know squat about installing on Linux, so this only applies to what to do afterwards. Also, I highly recommend taking some of the SysAd courses for the Certified Lotus Professional exams. This will at least give you some background with the technology.

    A couple of hints with the install that are common to all Domino installs:

    1. Use your company name for the certifier. Your best bet is something that is 8 characters or less. Acromnyms work well (like AT&T). Don't loose the password. The certifier is perhaps the most important file in a Domino environment.

    2. DON'T USE Notes1 FOR THE SERVERS NAME. Pick something, anything other than that. Also, keep the name short (8 char or less). Just about any character is allowed (even spaces), but I would recommend sticking just to alphanumeric characters.

    3. Pick a domain name based upon your Certifier, perhaps even identical. Domino mail domains are different from SMTP domains. Don't put a ".com" at the end. Just go with one simple word.

    4. Other than that, go with the install defaults, there isn't much that you need to tweak on the install out of the box.

    Once you get the server up and running, you are going to need a Win(95/98/NT) box for the Admin client. Install all three (Notes/Designer/Admin) clients on this box. You have to have the Admin, and the other two will prove useful along the way. Lotus currenlty only supports these on Win32, though I've heard rumors of guys running them on WINE.

    There are two directions that you can go with a Notes install. It can either start as a mail server and move into a Mail & Application server. Or you can go the other direction and put a couple of departmental applications and then use it to replace your installed mail system.

    Either way, you are going to have to create some user accounts. Notes allows you to import from a WinNT account, but that likely won't be necessary here. You'll use the admin client to create the accounts. It will create ID files with the certifier and also mail files for each user. Use the ID's to install the Notes clients if you are going to access the server with Lotus client. If they are just going to access the server via a web browser, then you just need to create person documents in the Domino Directory, each with a username/password combo.

    The server is still pretty useless if you don't have an application to use. You can download some generic Domino applications from notes.net in the 'Sandbox' area. Throw and application on the server and let some coworks play with it. Discussion databases work well out of the box. Notes is very good at workflow tracking and those kind of apps aren't too difficult to develope.

    Let me know if you have more questions. Like any other server technology, its pretty useless if you don't have a plan for how to use it. The good/bad thing about Notes is that it is very flexible.

  • Yeah, but... What about companies that have alot of Notes/Domino systems? Does these systems run under "Zope"? Dont think so. This is great! Linux cando yet another useful thing - Be a Dominoserver. /Patrix
  • On Friday night I had downloaded the Lotus Domino R5 Gold install for Linux. I found a short guide to the installation at dominopower.com and followed that to complete the install. A few details that are different than the guide at dominopower.com

    9. Once set up, go back to the Linux server and type "/opt/lotus/bin/server" and watch it start up. Note you don't get the ">" prompt on the console but don't worry, you can just type commands as normal.

    I got the error messages "notes.ini not found". The solution was to add the install directories to the $PATH (for system wide /etc/profile, for just the notes user ~/.profile).

    10. If you didn't choose to have Domino start the http task automatically, then type "start http" at the console. Next, use your browser to open http://:8081/names.nsf and detach the user ID from your document.

    First of all "start http" is an error, this should be "load http". I had elected to have the http process start up automatically. It wasn't clear to me whether I needed to disable my current http server (thttp) so I did so to be on the safe side. Thus the second part of the instructions above ("http://:8081/names.nsf") didn't work as Domino was now on port 80 (standard web port). So simply replace this with "http:///names.nsf" if you had no http server running before the Domino installation. You will be prompted for a login and password. This will be the one you setup when doing the install. To get to your user document simply click on "People" and select the user.

    > The author does discuss some the 8081 information on the third page of the setup guide.

    Now you are ready to setup a client (Windows or Macintosh) with the User ID. That is explanitory so go to it!

  • The dominopower.com article is at http://www.dominopower. com/issues/issue199911/linux001.html [dominopower.com]...
  • When you detach the User ID from the People page on the Domino web server you should rename the ID file to "user.id" otherwise the client will not recognize the file as an ID.
  • Here's a list of some things Notes does that make is neat: -Out of the box workflow/multi-step approval of forms (for example, your supervisor must approve a puchase order before it does to Procurement) -Access Control and Encryption down to the field level on documents...if you don't have read permission on a field of a document, you don't even know its there, let alone see its contents (on the hypothetical purchase order above, you would fill in normal 'i need this' type fields, you supervisor would have more fields when they went to approve or deny it, like vendor or cost, and purchasing would see even more stuff, all on the same form) -multikey (N of M) encryption, such as, it takes 5 out of 7 Dept. managers private keys to decrypt the otherwise one-way encrypted mail-in password backup database (this is very cool, makes a virtual 'safe' for storing sensitive data...the same database could also be opened up by, say, 2 out of 3 board of directors keys, too) Those are the most obvious things I can think of that it does that are "hard". Admittedly, the UI out of the box sucks (either web or notes client), its presumed that you'll heavily tweak the templates for out of the box forms you use. Think of Domino/Notes as a platform, which is what it really is; databases can be replicated seamlessly between the various OSes Domino runs on, making it a truly cross-platform platform. So, Domino on Linux gains heavily over NT for all the reasons any other app. is nicer on Linux/Unix than NT, better performance, less hardware needed per unit of load, etc.

  • Here here...dll hell (due to lack of needed granularity in its versioning) is the major cause of Windows Hell, not just on NT...2 different versions of a dll can report the same version in api calls, which is why clever windows apps check modify dates and file sizes on crucial dlls, but not enough of them use their own private copies, most just stomp on the copy in the windows\system directory blindly, killing other stuff.

    While I agree with the posters pointing out that unstable NT boxes are due to lack of skill admining, the level of skill and effort required for good uptime is ridiculous(I have many NT servers with uptimes over 6 months, which is paltry for Unix/midrange/mainframe systems, but is considered awesome for NT, and its a pain compared to getting better out of 'real' server OSes).

    Anyway, I'd rather focus my energy on enhancing what my server's do, than on making sure the OS doesn't die because I installed some lame utility to try and bring NT up to the level of function of Linux/Unix, whether its running Notes, or anything else.

  • I'd disagree, the IT community takes Domino on S/390 seriously, and theirs no mainframe client out.

    Now, a linux notes client would make them very happy, as you wouldn't need Windoze boxen on the desktop anymore.

  • Lotus is outdated? Can you say "35 million users" and the largest PKI infrastructure deployed in the world? A server software (unlike MS's) that runs on all the major operating systems com a home pc (Linux) to an enterprise-class Mainframe, and all in between? Please, don't compare apples to oranges and based on hype...that's what Microsoft does.
  • 4) None of the above, and not very interesting.

    If you upgrade the server code, you're working outside of the Domino/Notes security model during the install (since the server isn't running at the time), and when you start the server again after the code upgrade and upgrade the design of your system databases, you're 1. working under the authority of the server's ID and not your user ID and 2. working on local databases, not databases you're accessing through a client/server session.

    So, you're not defeating Domino security in this instance. If you managed to install the new code without proper authority, that would be an OS breach, not a Domino breach.
  • Please try to limit your discussion to the current release at hand.

    Its not like we couldn't go back and make note of all the flaws in IE/Eudora or whatever other previous software versions out there.
  • Notes is not an email only solution. If thats how you are using it, they you are using it WRONG.

    Notes is a collaberative application that utilizes mail to allow multiple databases/users in varying locations to co-operate and communicate issues regardless of location and in many cases OS versions. They have a few dedicated clients, but they also work with a common web browser.

    Now that that out of the way, from your description of Notes, you are only using it for mail, and if thats the case I'd tell you to rip it out and start over with something else. Notes allows you to incorporate enterprise-wide scheduling for users, for rooms, create reservations for those rooms and even reserve resourses (projector, pointers, etc..) for the conference.

    This is just one example. There are many, many more.
  • ... but this is what you get trying to support many different user interfaces/platform using 'standard' commercial programmers (ie. that couldn't care less: their names are not in the software, and someone other takes the heat from users).

    But fear not: the rel 5 of the client is all drag'n'drop, animated, neat-o-matic, HTML6.7.m$.virus compliant, and it only works on MS compliant platforms, Windows and Mac.

    ;)

    I think it's not by accident that in new (future) releases IBM put the enphasis on open network standards: hopefully using a browser, Java, IIOP/CORBA and XML we could dump the darn 'client' (that in the last release is about TWICE THE SIZE of the server...)

    Ciao,
    Rob!
  • I've worked with domino for 6 years now, but I wasn't able to figure out how to configure it ;)
    Hopefully, this has to do with me being too used to the [insert bad word here] installation/configuration method it has.

    I've found this on the "Domino 5 for linux feedback forum" [notes.net] on notes.net, maybe it's useful for you also:

    ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------

    Main Topic: Getting Domino Running using RedHat 6.0
    Author: Category: Build:
    Massimo Montecchi
    on 08/16 at 07:35 PM Domino Server -- General Administration Build Sneak Preview

    ------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

    Message Content:
    First : thanks to Lotus for this wonderful sneak preview.....

    Here are the steps to getting Domino running using Linux RedHat 6.0

    1. install Linux (RedHat 6.0).
    1a. Login as root !
    1b. install jdk 116 from IBM alphaworks
    2. create a user called notes in the group notes
    3. download the .TAR file from Lotus.
    3a. if you have downloaded the multiple files: cat *.tar > 5011lis.tar
    4. un-archive the .TAR file: tar xvf 5011lis.tar
    5. cd to the directory where Install exists (same as where license.txt is)
    5a. run ./install
    6. answer the questions, notes is the user, notes is the group
    7. change directories and start the setup program
    7a. cd /local/notesdata
    7b. run /opt/lotus/bin/http httpsetup
    8. you should see something that says that the HTTP Setup is running
    9. From Netscape open http://your.server:8081
    10. Install the notes server ( I assume you know how to do this )
    11. The server will stop.
    12. change directories and start the server
    12a login as notes
    12a. cd /local/notesdata
    12b. run /opt/lotus/bin/server

    I hope I remembered everything.

    Good luck!

    - Massimo

    ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------

    This is for the old sneak preview, but I hope it helps (especially the download jdk bit... I don't know if it works with blackdown)...

    Ciao,
    Rob!
  • Oh yeah, L0pht reported a problem, but it was a documented problem where Lotus had a tech note about the matter already written and described the problem and even provided a solution.

    Only problem was that L0pht reported the problem about 9 months after the documentated problem.

    :-)
  • Sounds to me like your just a piss poor NT admin. As for the "I have and MCSE so I should know" theory; just because you have an MCSE doesn't make you some sort of 'lord of all that is NT'

    You are right about something...a MCSE doesn't make you good at what you do...the thing is...I do have almost 5 years of experience as an NT admin (and almost 20 of using computers in one way or another). I don't think of myself as the ultimate NT admin (I do know some that are better than me) but I do *know* that I'm a competent admin.

    I refuse to run NT as a server because I hate having midnight calls, but I do admit NT is a good desktop enviroment for some people, as long as they don't mind it BSODing once in a while. The right tool, for me, is Linux on my servers (don't need a huge server, just email, web, gatewaying, firewalling, file/printer serving and to be my workstation in a 50 or so puter's network, so I don't use Solaris or one of the other big unices), and NT on my PHB's desktop.

    Vox

  • Hopefully with the developments in the free and commercial sector to make Linux more 'user friendly' we will see Linux replace NT as an Enterprise Network OS.

  • Hmm, we have couple Domino servers here at work. I wonder if a huge corporate monolith like my present employer would ever consider the Linux flavor of Domino.

    It'd be interesting to hear about who is actually deploying Domino servers on Linux.

    --Joe
    --
  • Lotus has an R5 client in the works, they just haven't announced it yet. One step at a time...
  • Seems like quite a few places use domino. Still, all I hear is Exchange this and Exchange that. I'd like to exchange Exchange with something that runs on a fairly stable OS, like XXX (be it domino or whatever) on Linux (or *-BSD).

    At least in my country people seem to be fairly MS oriented. What's the hazzles of moving on to domino ?

    Anyone with experience please reply. I'm sick of power-cycling NT ``servers'' every two days...
  • I know one Netware shop that will be shooting NT for this.

    They have a bunch of Netware servers that NEVER go down and a single NT server running Notes that takes up 1/2 the IT budget with it's instability. Even going with the 2 CPU version of Mindcraft's Server of choice ( big DELL ) didn't solve the problems. The Linux BETA hasn't gone down under a larger simulated load.

    A few weeks testing on the Gold code and this baby goes into a production deployment.
  • Perhaps someone can tell me, what do groupware programs like Notes and Exchange do that's so special? From the screenshots, it looks just like a mail program with calender functions, a to do list and an address book.

  • ...about Lotus Gold? Gor groupware/content management I really think Lotus is outdated and application servers like Zope (www.zope.org) are much convenient. Beside this, Zope is Open Source, Python-powered, better coded.
  • Don't know about any "hazzles" of moving to domino, but the download is a 90-day evaluation license. I'm downloading it now, but it's 97MB so will take a few minutes...

    If you want to evaluate it, just download it.
  • Rather than attempt to describe the Lotus Notes client, here's a link for our enjoyment [iarchitect.com].
  • I'm trying to decide what to use at our office (small shop, about 40 clients), either Lotus Domino or HP's OpenMail....exchange is out of the question because I refuse to use NT in any way, shape or form (and yes, I know what I'm talking about...I'm a MCSE).

    So...what do you all think?

    Vox

  • It has become an open-source and Linux developer custom to post screenshots of your software so people can get a taste of it before they commit to a nice chunky download.

    Why don't we kindly suggest to Lotus that they consider following this custom.



  • This is great... (Score:3)

    by jd ( 1658 ) <`imipak' `at' `yahoo.com'> on Saturday November 20, 1999 @12:07PM (#1516257) Homepage Journal
    ...as a start. A magnificent start, to be sure, but still only a start. The whole of Lotus Notes needs to be ported to Linux, before a Linux Domino server will be seen by the IT sector as much more than an interesting toy.

    If Lotus wants to tap into the extremely profitable and vast Linux market, it needs to be making strides. Baby steps are fine, to start with, but you won't get far down the road with those alone.

    IBM has made tremendous strides, and each seems to be greater than the last. That's great! That's wonderful! And that should be shining example to Lotus, the reluctant tortoise. Even tortoises can win races, but not if they end up sleeping for longer than the hare.

  • ... (Score:3)

    by Signal 11 ( 7608 ) on Saturday November 20, 1999 @12:08PM (#1516259)
    As another reader pointed out, Lotus has some issues [iarchitect.com] to resolve. Now, if anybody has ever had to use keyboard shortcuts for Netscape and thought the same shortcuts work under linux... ah, well. And Netscape is actually somewhat compliant to the "windowish" way of doing things... after reading this critique.. I wouldn't be suprised if Lotus threw foot pedals under each user's machine and had them "play" their computer like an organ to do something simple like send an e-mail!
    --
  • This is another nail in Microsoft's coffin, this time courtesy of Big Blue. And so soon after that Windows NT service pack thing too.

    Satirico - your link to the Web's funniest sites and pages [tripod.com]
  • Check out Lotus marketing. Sometimes its a joke, but they've been trying to define groupware for about 10 years.

    Specifically, the Notes platform (and it really is its own platform) allows you to rapidly develop and deploy applications that are easily distributed, and tie in closely with the Domino mail infrastructure. Groupware is more than just email. It is more than just email & usenet. It is technology that assists people working together.

    Most Notes/Domino application fall within one of five catagories: Approvals, Broadcasting, Discussions, References, Tracking (from Notes Application Developers Guide).

    Since they are not relational databases, things that relational databases are good at, Notes is not good at. But is is certainly more than email on steroids.

    A disclaimer: Most companies don't 'get' Notes. They choose it just for the email functionality and if all you are looking for is email fuctionality, sendmail does that and probably much cheaper. However, if you are looking for an environment that is very flexible, highly secure, and allows for a whole host of solutions (such as CRM, workflow tracking...) Find out what types of application the Lotus Business Partners build (Synergistics, Ives are a couple) and then you can get an idea of what Groupware can do.
  • O.K., that helps a little. Why couldn't they have included this info in the actual distribution? Who would have though to go to dominopower.com instead of looking on lotus.com or notes.net? Anyway, thanks for the tip.
  • I refuse to use NT in any way, shape or form (and yes, I know what I'm talking about...I'm a MCSE).

    Okay... being an MCSE, why is it you refuse to run NT? I mean I'm a huge linux advocate, but I don't refuse to run NT... Please enlighten us? Or at least me? :-)


  • I work for what I believe to be the largest Domino hosting company in Canada (www.acemail.com [acemail.com])... We are very excited about the Linux version of the server. We spend a lot of money baby sitting NT boxes running Domino. If we can save money by switching to Linux you can be sure we will. We already run a lot of Sun boxes, but since IBM PC servers come with a Domino license, you can be sure that wins out for Dominso servers. If IBM lets that license be a Linux license (or honestly, any stable OS), we will run a lot of them. We're already a very pro-UNIX shop, we just need a cost effective version of Domino for UNIX/Linux/Some stable OS, and we'll switch FAST.

    Soon the only thing we'll need NT for is COM support in ASP/Frontpage sites, and Domino sites that make WIN32 API calls... And not many of our sites need that. Viva le Linux!

  • Unless configured to allow anonymous connections, nearly all communication with a Domino Server requires authentication based upon a 128 bit key(North American versions). The only exceptions are for a server set to use Internet protocols (HTTP, SMTP, NTTP).

    So you have to have a certificate that the Domino server trusts. However, once you have been authenticated, the user ID that you have authenticated with has to have access to the server. Server access is determined separately from Authentication.

    Still, the Domino server is only going to let you see the .NSF (Notes Storage Facility) files that are located in the Domino root (usually domino\data\) or subdirectories from that. Each NSF has security built in and again, your user ID has to have appropriate access according to the Access Control List on the NSF.

    Now, in an environment that hasn't been properly configured, especially one running the Domino HTTP task, it can be pretty easy to crack the server. L0pht has posted about ways to exploit Domino default settings. However, I just don't think that its feasible to crack a properly configured Domino server.
  • There would not be much interesting to see of Domino. It is just a server, and would much like Apache does. If you ever saw Domin on PC it looks just like a DOS window with a couple of things printed on the screen

    I have included bellow a imulated screen shot. If you still want to see one.
    -- Begin Simulation---
    #domino &
    Lotus Domino Starting

    Domino started successful

    #

    -- End Simulation---

    This is why they do not include any screen shots becuase it is the client that is of interest, and that only runs on windows 95/98

    Oliver

  • Well, if you're pointing out that the NSF format is not very efficient in terms of disk space, you're right. Although, consider that it's trying to do alot more a gzipped text file is.

    The client help is actually 7 MB, the rest is programming and administrative documentation which a normal user wouldn't need.
    --
  • Well...4 years having a beeper/cell phone tell me that the stupid NT server is dead while somebody is trying to work at the office made me hate NT. Then I got linux working, and the only time it's been down in 6 months is when somebody disconnected the power from the server by accident...so...not having to go to the office on a saturday/sunday or after I'm home during the week is enough reason for me to refuse to run NT on my servers :)

    Vox

  • Exchange is not what I would call groupware.

    I'll explain the Notes solution. If you use notes only for email, its the wrong implimentation.

    Notes allows groups (Sales, marketing, etc...) to share ideas, leads and more through discussion databases. (think threaded discussions like newsgroups) Access to these database is controled via an access control list, so I can keep marketing out of the sales discussion and vice versa.

    These groups can also share documentation, schedules and more via other databases.

    So for instance, If I wanted to call a meeting for the Sales department, I could run a querry to find an open time slot when I could call a meeting without having to call around to each sales guy and find out what their schedule looks like. Their schedules are "online" in the Notes scheduling database and I can find out the open times. I can also look for a conference room to have this meeting because conference rooms are listed in the scheduling database along with how many people the room holds (chairs). I can either look for a specific room or notes will suggest a room based on the common open time slot I find open for all the sales guys, the number of invitees (sales guys) and if I need any specific things (projector, vcr, etc..) I could reserve these the very same way as I'm doing with the room. This process takes about 5 minutes at the longest. Try calling a meeting that involves more than 2 people in most companies and its a big hassle. just co-ordinating the time the meeting is and what conference room is available is a pain. Some people have "calling lists" to call to reserve a conference room. Imaginge calling that list involves calling around, leaving voice mail, and then having them get back to your voice mail etc... its a time consuming process.

    Thats just one littls aspect that Notes groupware can do for you. You can also co-ordinate the IT department this way. You can co-ordinate the IT support department, log calls that come into support and assign the call tickets to the tech. Then the customer can see who the ticket is assigned to and the current status.

    I could go on an on.. but the bottom line is that notes is more that just email.
  • Unfortunately, nobody seems to have answered the original question: "Domino or HP's OpenMail?", so how about I give it a stab...

    Firstly: a Truth In Advertising reality-check (see my sig).

    Right. If you like the sort of functionality you get from Exchange, need it reliable and scalable, get OpenMail.

    Our OpenMail server has been up 242 days (and I think that last reboot was because of a two day site power outage). We've tested a single-CPU Linux box at 2000-2500 real users.

    Real Exchange implementations seem to average 300-500 users. Don't get me started about reliability.

    Real Domino implementations tend to be less scalable than Exchange (therefore much less scalable than OpenMail).

    Having said all of that, Domino does have some interesting application development features. OpenMail concentrates on being a really good messaging/e-mail server, plus some other twiddles (like all the cool Outlook support).


    richi.
    --
    Richi Jennings
    OpenMail Technical Product Manager - http://www.hp.com/go/openmail
    Hewlett-Packard Company
    "Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty"
  • > all I hear is Exchange this and Exchange that. I'd like to exchange Exchange with something that runs on a fairly stable OS

    If you need something closer to Exchange than Domino, look at OpenMail.

    richi.
    --
    Richi Jennings
    OpenMail Technical Product Manager - http://www.hp.com/go/openmail
    Hewlett-Packard Company
    "Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty"
  • > Now, in an environment that hasn't been properly configured, especially one running the Domino
    > HTTP task, it can be pretty easy to crack the server. L0pht has posted about ways to exploit
    > Domino default settings. However, I just don't think that its feasible to crack a properly
    > configured Domino server.

    Unfortunately, there appear to be a lot of improperly configured Domino servers running the http task, especially on NT, but even on AIX. The default settings make admin easy, but open you up to serious attacks from anyone with a web browser.

    This raises an interesting question: should the products that are ported to Linux be configured differently/more securely by default to suit the environment?
  • First, many people are STILL slamming notes for being propritariey. When is the last time you looked at Lotus Notes? Version 3? Its currently at Version 5.

    Lets see, POP, IMAP, LDAP, S/MIME, the list grows and grows. I'd say these are open standards and Notes uses them. I don't see where this is propritariery.

    Ok, now the other myths people are saying about notes in here.

    I see comments on problems that are directed at Version 4.5 or 4.6. Excuse me, but this is version 5, an improved version, with an entirely new interface. The screen shots I've seen so far have all been version 4.6. So keep your poor interface comments until you have SEEN the 5.0 client.

    Now about the comments on forcing eveyone to use Windows/Mac clients. Sorry, but from the amount of calls coming into the call center (yeah, I used to work for Lotus) the majority of the clients that people were using were about 92% windows (version of 95, 98, NT) about 6% Mac, and about 1% OS/2, and the remaining 1% was for what I would call other/unix clients. Face facts people, right now the client in a corporate enviroment is windows. I don't like it either, but thats the client of choice for coroporate america.

    Lotus even discontinued the OS/2 client and they are OWNED by IBM. You would think that even Big Blue could convince Lotus to continue to make an OS/2 client for that dying platform. Its not happening. They are making a Server only version for OS/2, just like they are doing for Linux, Solaris, et all. So don't wait for a Linux client, at least not until you see an OS/2 client.

    The advantage of running Notes on Linux is obvious to me. Less time spending baby sitting the NT server for smaller shops. Most of the larger shops have either an AS/400 installed or a Solaris box. I can see great advantages in this running on Linux.

    Another thing I I don't see anyone talking about is the fact that in the current version (5.0) Lotus have managed to move the entire admin functions of the Notes server to a remote console or Administration Client. Granted this runs on windows, but now the need to admin the server does not require you to be AT the server. So, in the network allows, dial into the network, peform admin function from home via a laptop, or for that matter from anywhere in the world that has a decent phone line. This is a big deal for Lotus. Yeah, Novell had this for a long time. Notes had a somewhat remote admin client before, but certian functions rwquired you to be AT the server. This is no longer the case.
  • but the R5 notes client is totally different. In my opinion it is very slick in appearance. I do not know how much of a resource hog it is...

    Also, I do not believe that notes has been ported to linux, just domino.

  • I am very interested in Zope. I went to their site, but the download page has only this:

    Due to an unforseen security problem, the 2.0.0 release has been withdrawn from availability. It will be replaced on 17 September with 2.0.1 resolving the outstanding issue. We appologise for the trouble this has created our user base, but feel that this is the prudent course of action.

    It is now november. Either this is horribly out of date or zope is vaporware. Can anyone help me out with a working like to a recent version of zope?

  • this is great THANK YOU LOTUS

    I use notes extensively where I work (design micro processors )

    now this is great and we are moveing domino from NT to solaris WHY ?

    because the same code is used under all of the servers on all of the platforms !!
    (yes there will be a small No. of native hooks but Lotus trying to keep them small)

    but @ the moment all the linux dev workers have to use WINE to use it because the CLIENT is still windows only


    so wheres the CLIENT

    we will pay !! Lotus are you there PAY MONEY FOR LINUX VERSION ,
    LOTS OF GREEN, LOTUS FOR LINUX !!

    cheers

    john hope they listen jones


    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
  • So yes, this is a great development. All nice and good and such. Nice to see an enterprise tool ported to Linux.

    But, frankly, Domino? Notes?

    Considering that every single last implementation of it in any environment that I've seen from corporate center to university campus has Sucked because of low speed, inefficency, and an incredibly poor user interface (see http://www.iarchitect.com/lotus.htm [iarchitect.com] for a small review of Notes and how poor it is)...

    Yes, enterprise tools are cool, shows some real strength behind Linux. But this particular enterprise tool has a rather deservedly poor reputation :)
    Do we really want this attached to Linux?


    "lotus notes: it's not just a mail program, it's a complete denial of service attack in one box"



    "I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
  • Sheesh. I go off and I start working on a small rant, preview, post, and THEN I find out that the point I'm making is already made. Twice. :)

    Damn if I'm not a pro :)


    "I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
  • Version 2.0.1 is here [zope.org]. I don't know what site you went to, but I've been using this for a couple of months. In any case, Zope.org appears to be the site to hit for all things Zope.
  • I can't speak for Exchange, but Notes is rather like an application server. You can design what is called in Notes-speak "databases" (Although they are not relational and have many features not associated with a true DB). The databases store data in instances of "forms" which are similar in functionality to a javascript enabled web-form. Once you operate a form and fill in data, etc... it is stored and can be viewed in...get this..."views". There are events for everything UI related in a form...you can write the handling functions in LotusScript or Java...using Java is very powerful as you can imagine. The Mail/Calender functionality is simply one of many possible databases. My company uses Notes for everything (some apps are more successful than others). We do our travel expenses on a Notes database that exploits an LDAP Whitepages to gather database not stored in the Notes central address book. Payroll adjustments like direct deposit changes/initiation, 401k deduction and stock purchase deduction changes/initiation are all done via Notes. This is secure because your Notes ID file contains a public Key which is used to authenticate the user.

    The only caveat to Notes is the un-scalability of the NABs (but now you can use LDAP as your address book!) and the fact that the user interface is sometimes infuriatingly obtuse and rigid. All in all, it's a pretty good product. Just don't run it on NT.
  • Well, that was a completely useless waste of my time. I downloaded the 94MB file and ran the install. No problems there, except that it couldn't automatically create the notes user and group so I had to do it manually and then reinstall. But, what after the install? No man pages, no documentation, no instructions. I checked the notes home page and couldn't find any additional documentation package I needed to download. I tried running the programs in the bin directory, but they kept saying that it couldn't find a notes.ini file and did nothing at all (except for nsd which dumped my machine info and checkos which say my OS is unsupported!).

    I can say that /usr/lotus took up 45395K and /usr/local/notesdata took up 107841K as du reported it. That's over 150MB that's gonna be freed from my hard drive Real Soon Now(tm).

    I didn't expect to be greeted with a fancy GUI or anything, as I understand this is only the "server" software, but it would have been nice to have an installation guide that told you what to do after the installation was completed. The "help" directory under the notesdata had some huge files, that ended in nsf and apparently are notes "internal" proprietary help file format. How am I supposed to read them if I can't even fire up the server?

    I'll leave the software on my HD for now, but if anyone can point me to an installation or setup guide I'd be greatful.

  • 4 years having a beeper/cell phone tell me that the stupid NT server is dead while somebody is trying to work at the office made me hate NT.

    What apps were you running on NTS? We've got a P166/64M doing Exchange Server for about 20 people but that's about it... all email goes through a linux box running qmail. Web stuff goes through the same box running squid. proxying is done through socks5.

    I'm just trying to get a handle on what causes NT to go down... I'm no newbie but this box has been and stayed up for months... Granted it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot...
  • The NT client for Notes is a 100Mbyte install! That's smaller than a full DB2 server. I can't see anyone wanting that. Whenever I have been required to use Notes, it has been slow and cumbersome. The interface is indeed a lesson on what not to do. Uh oh, guess this is flamebait. There goes my score of 1.

  • Free doesn't necessarily mean anything to these guys. This is PHB land. When I hired in, it was mentioned to me that it is often harder to get a $1000 PC than it is to get a $1,000,000 tester. They also aren't thrilled with putting Linux on PCs instead of paying for WinNT or Win95. etc... etc... etc...

    --Joe
    --
  • Hasn't anyone else noticed it ? When you ask IBM about unreleased products they either give a no comment or flatly deny working on it. 2 Months before the 1st notes Beta for Linux came out, Lotus' CEO was promising to never support Linux.

    Frankly I don't think it's a coincidence. It could be that all that monitoring they have been under since IBM had it's own run in with the DOJ has made them play nice and this is one of the "nice" things for a "market dominant" player to do.

    Don't sell Vaporware. Even if it's already Alpha in your labs.

    A Linux client would be cool and all but the 1st we hear of it will be "...And you can download the Beta version at ."

  • All I can say is that Notes is the Visual Basic of the internet world. Yes it's fast to get going, but what you gain in speed you lose in flexibility. And since the net is changing so fast, flexibility is everything.

  • Note that the Domino server has only a console interface.

    The Notes R5 client, Windows and Mac only, actually has resolved many of the issues listed at the Interface Hall of Shame (some of which are actually issues with a custom mail applicaiton, not the standard Notes product.)
    --
  • But, what after the install? No man pages, no documentation, no instructions. I checked the notes home page and couldn't find any additional documentation package I needed to download.

    The documentation is in Notes Databases, accessible from HTTP or Notes in the Help directory. The docs are the main reason your data directory is so large in a default installation. I highly recommend full text indexing the databases -- full text searching is very fast on Domino.

    You can also get the docs in HTML or PDF formats from http://notes.net (the actual home page for Domino.) Just click on the "Doc Library" button and look for the installation guide. You'll need Javascript turned on.
    --
  • Note that 50MB of that install is help databases, which you don't need because the client will find them on the server.
    --

  • Note that NT seat licences aren't required if you are running application server software (only SMB filesharing). You still need to pay Lotus for the seat licencing, no matter what the platform is.
    --
  • I know this is offtopic, but I would like to know how you define the size of a corporation. Companies can be rated in hundreds of ways, but how would one measure "size"?

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