Are Liquid Explosives on a Plane Feasible? 875
permaculture writes "The Register describes the difficulty of mixing up a batch of liquid explosives on a plane. Further, it opines that such a plot might work in a Hollywood film, but not in the real world. Liquid explosives were used for the 7/7 London bombings in 2005, according to the official account — or not, as now seems more likely."
This story selected and edited by LinuxWorld editor for the day Saied Pinto.
W. Virginia Incident (Score:2, Interesting)
It has been done! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Terrorist true mission? (Score:2, Interesting)
If the terrorists can subject us to huge inconveniences and economic damage to pay for all of this added security, then they've 'already won'. Not being a Chicken Little or conspiracy theorist, I'm still puzzled as to why it is that the U.S. and U.K. governments so consistently play right into the hands of the terrorists. I mean, we've (allegedly) captured the ones responsible for the plot and (allegedly) know what they were doing and planning. Why, then if this is so do we still have to take all of these precautions? We are nations of over-reactionaries and I see most of these actions as closing the barn door long after all the livestock has escaped.
Now gimme back my gel sole shoe inserts you insensitive clods!
Re:Terrorist true mission? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Another chemist's view (Score:2, Interesting)
The devices were made of metal tubes, connected with a threaded coupler and a piece of brass separating the tubes. Acid in one tube would eat through the brass and combine with the other liquid and burst into flames, catching the compartment on fire and forcing the Captain to flood the compartment and cause the ship to sink. The thickness of the brass determined the delay and made sure that the evidence was deep below the sea.
The method was finally discovered when one of the devices failed and was discovered when the ship ported.
Now, instead of using the delay technique, or using a shorter delay and other container materials besides lead pipe, I believe two people with bottles of the same liquids could manage to mix them together and set a fire great enough to take down an airplane.
Several Informative Pertinent Videos. (Score:1, Interesting)
And there are several straw men already leaned up against my initial post:
Yes terrorism is real an Israel, where they have been oppressing muslims for decades. How does that change the facts surrounding both 9/11 AND 7/7?
Adding your personal opinion (especially your uninformed personal opinion) based on the validity of my mental processes (Hitler's brain, etc.) is ludicrous. Please refute the facts surrounding the topic and stop trolling.
Here are links to several videos that you can view online, and better inform yourself:
http://www.myspace.com/wtc_7 [myspace.com]
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/american-schol
http://americanscholarssymposium.org/ [americansc...posium.org]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-59465939
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=879752597
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=654531304
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=324971467
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=695210226
At least attempt to inform yourselves before you jump into a discussion and throw your political/personal views all over the place with no basis in reality.
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't live in the UK, so I don't know. But if this is really happening, what better way to breed mistrust and hatred towards the government? That is scary stuff.
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:2, Interesting)
Is Manipulating Elections With Terror Feasible? (Score:4, Interesting)
A British diplomat (to Uzbekistan, an actual center of the Qaeda War) warns us to be skeptical of the plot [dailykos.com]. Especially its timing, which was premature for destroying a possible network, but right on time to steal headlines from a primary defeat from a leading neocon [google.com] that drew defensive scare propaganda from Bush and Cheney even though it's a Democratic primary.
As we see more and more [msn.com] of our Republican government terrorizing us on their campaign schedule [usatoday.com], we have more chances to turn against them, and fight our own war against terror ourselves, in our own minds and at the polls. We can replace anyone in the House of Representatives [wikipedia.org] and 1/3 of the Senate [wikipedia.org].
Re:Terrorist true mission? (Score:2, Interesting)
To quote a blog:
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:5, Interesting)
The republicans are losing support big time over here. Finally the majority of people in this country do see through their bullshit, and short of another 9/11, there is no way the republicans can stop it.
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:5, Interesting)
Which is the most simple explanation? That a bunch of people who don't have passports, plane tickets or (if the Register article is to be believed) the remotest understanding of explosives presented a genuine threat? Or that someone didn't really care what kind of threat they represented wanted to present themselves as the good guys by having "saved" us from this threat?
I'm slightly scared to post this, as I don't want to mysteriously commit suicide in the woods.
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:4, Interesting)
* Glyceryl trinitrate tablets generally contain no more than 500mcg of nitroglycerin. Even if there did exist a simple way to "strain out" the nitroglycerin from the tablets, it would take approximately 400 THOUSAND TABLETS to yield enough of the stuff to equal a very small 500g "stick" of 40% dynamite (dynamite is rated in ratio of nitroglycerin to binder, by weight). Given that they're doled out usually no more than 50 or so at a time, that's about hell of a lot heart patients he had to hit up at that asylum. Writers who create crap plot details like that need to be dragged out an shot. Don't even get me started on Lost or Alias.
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:2, Interesting)
"In fact the blast was not the result of a meeting between water and rubidium and caesium, but the triggering of a bomb, Sky television confirmed yesterday."
"But in a 2004 episode, the producers compromised. Explaining what happened when the metals were put in the bath, a crew member said: "Absolutely bloody nothing. The density of caesium ensured it hit the bottom of the bath like a lead weight. The volume of water then drowned out the thermal shock. They could not go home empty-handed. So they rigged a bomb in the bottom of the bath."
source: http://www.badscience.net/?p=270 [badscience.net]
and: http://www.badscience.net/?p=261 [badscience.net]
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:3, Interesting)
The article is wrong, it is feasable (Score:2, Interesting)
However, depending on your mixing process, you might set it off if you're not trained in proper handling. But, from every account I've ever seen, they appear to be well trained and versed in how to use explosives.
That's the problem, quite frankly.
Now, all that said, you're still safer on a plane than in a car, even with all these risks, and you still should refuse to live in unnecessary fear. Most such problems can be handled by tossing a blanket or a thick coat on top of the terrorist and pinning him down until he's subdued by the flight crew.
Bottles at WV airporttest positive for explosives (Score:2, Interesting)
leave the hillbilly jokes out, please.
Re:I don't think the side effect is an issue (Score:3, Interesting)
Not exactly the glorious martyrdom that they'd likely been planning for themselves. But hey, if the plan was to injure or kill only yourself and embarrass your cause in the process, then sure.
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:5, Interesting)
Because the detectors are sensitive to incredibly small quantities (hundreds or thousands of molecules/parts per trillion when airborne). As in: you'll need a truly great seal on the bottle, two clean rooms and a remarkable cleaning protocol to make sure that the remaining residues are below the detection threshold.
Not that it can't be done, but the cost is unbelievable (and the number of people that need to cooperate increases the risk of detection). Someone from the first room being within several feet of the bottle for a few minutes after cleaning would leave a detectable explosive residue on the bottle's surface.
Regards,
Ross
Re:Several Informative Pertinent Videos. (Score:1, Interesting)
NY Post [nypost.com]
You can call 1/3 of the population or 16% of the population "paranoid schizophrenics" if you want, but it just makes you look like an idiot.
Re:you're looking at the wrong statistic (Score:2, Interesting)
Why? They're not the ones filling mosques with speeches about tearing down western civilzation. They're not the ones sending suburban kids out with bombs to kill other kids on trains.
Why is it that the larger, non-bombing Muslim community (in, say, London) isn't heading this off at the pass by running the hate-preachers out of town so that there's no need to even talk statistics about who it's worth, or not, taking a closer look at in an airport? Really - why?
Re:That door is staying closed until you land (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:you're looking at the wrong statistic (Score:2, Interesting)
Outnumbering those you disagree with is hardly enough if they're better organised and willing to go to extremes.
that's not really the question... (Score:3, Interesting)
The question is whether undetectable, binary liquid bombs are feasible. To be undetectable, they couldn't be nitrogen-based explosives, as that is what all the detectors sniff for.
So the question is, could a two-part, non-Nitrogen-based liquid explosive (so called peroxide bombs) be smuggled onto a plane and then make a large enough explosion to bring it down?
It seems rather unlikely to me, with only a light skimming of the info. But I could easily be wrong. That's why I found the slashdot post interesting (although I didn't read the article, as I don't read the Register anymore due to rampant BS from them).
Re:you're looking at the wrong statistic (Score:3, Interesting)
Er, nope, catholics (or just "irish accent") are previous not next - they have already been done, before we got onto the muslims.
That's in the UK at least - in the US I guess the catholics were "freedom fighters we send money to" rather than "terrorists", but hey, what's a few nail-bombs between friends.
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:3, Interesting)
anyway, re 7/7, watch "terrorstorm" on google video, you'll see that there was a "training" exercise being run on 7/7, involving muslim terrorists bombing 3 stations and a bus, at the exact time of the bombing (+- 30 mins) in the exact stations targetted by the bombing, and then all of a sudden it went live......
now think about this: the bomber on the bus was thought to perhaps not know it was a suicide mission: when he heard about the other "suicide" bombings witnesses said he panicked and tried to take his backpack off, which was when it exploded. Now imagine you where hired to be an actor in a terrorist drill, playing the part of a suicide bomber. You and 3 mates take the fake backback bombs and go buy return tickets, running and jumping with supposedly sensitive explosives on your backs. you split up as per the plan, your sitting on a bus, and all of a sudden you hear that bombs have gone off at the 3 places your mates where going too.....
(theres a lot more to it than that, watch terrorstorm)
Just not plausible. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, if they were using sensitised nitromethane, or pre-prepared gelled Acetone Peroxide, then it is very much plasuible.
But everything i've read claims that they were supposedly planning to synthesise AP on the plane.
Now, you start off with your Hydrogen Peroxide, say 35%, and you could have this pre-mixed with your acid catalyst - say conc. Hydrochloric or Sulfuric Acid. You only need a small amount of acid - and HCl doesn't react anywhere near as exothermically as conc. H2SO4. So this pre-prepared mixture could conceivably be handled quite safely - it's certainly nothing like 'Pirhana Fluid', which IIRC, is equal volumes of conc. H2SO4 and H2O2.
So this mixture can be mixed, on the plane, with acetone. Now, it needs to be done in an ice bath, - sure, maybe you can MacGyver this up on board somehow - and after waiting hours for the reaction to complete, the product needs to be filtered out and dried. In my opinion, this would be the hardest part to complete on the plane, and the hardest to conceal. It would be easier trying to get snakes on the plane.
TFA does mention something particularly scary in the context of aircraft terror - Dimethylmercury.
In a couple of bottles of eye drops or something, you would probably have enough to give everybody on the plane a lethal dose. No fancy delivery system needed, just drop it on the floor and let the volatility, vapour pressure and air circulation system do the rest.
And you wouldn't know a damn thing for months.
Re:Flight 505 to MacGyver City... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sooo.. Roll back to the 90'ies. Research facilty for Norwegian Oil company Hydro in Oslo. They're handling lots of nitro-glycerin and various high-explosives.. and they have all these safety measures, because for some reason, people don't like being blown up,
So.. one day, one senior researcher, fairly hung over, is handling a glass-tube (shut) with the nitro-glycerin.. and drops it. So, the guy sees his life pass by in slow-motion, curses a little for not having had sex with his wife this morning and closes his eyes waiting to die.. Except nothing happens. So, he runs out and calls for evacutation. Eventually, they clean the mess up and everybody gets back to work. Turns out, the container didn't break, and the nitro-glycerin was still lying happily on the floor.
Now, the leading researcher and head of the facility was a really hands-on-guy. He knew all the theory and stuff, but he was really hands-on. So.. they had all these tests on how much pressure it takes to make nitro-glycerin blow up, but how do you test how much turbulence it takes to make a closed container filled with the stuff blow up? You could probably put it in a shaking-machine, but that'd hardly be realistic conditions now would it?
Now, the rest of this story is verified. This guy fetches some containers of nitro, drags it out in the woods behind the factory along with a fishing rod. He finds a big ledge, when at the bottom, he ties a container to the line, and being carefull not moving the nitro at all he walks up the top of ledge, and using his fishing rod hoists the stuff up and starts swinging it around wildly.. without hitting the rock ledge of course.. He stood there for 10 minutes just waving the stuff around.
Sadly, or maybe luckily for him, he was not able to make it explode as long as it was within a closed container. The scientific, now empirically tested, conclusion was clear, the risk of explosion within a closed container was grozzly exxagarated.
(This guy also ran an experiement with was I think was paint-thinner(not sure, it was poisonous atleast) and a sealed off cabin. Himself, another researcher acting as a secretary and a psychologist locked themselves in the cabin to find out the effect the stuff had on human beings, all the while writing logs of what they were experiencing. Reviewing the log-books the day after, they found they had started drawing stick-men instead of writing logs after three hours)
Sorry, too simplistic, Benjamin (Score:3, Interesting)
I am not a terrorism "expert"; just someone who likes to keep the "story" consistent with the way I've seen the world work. This "horde of Islamic fundamentalists" stuff is just fearmongering. Think about it.
The goal of Islamic jihadists (at least, the ones we care about-- Al Qaeda, right?) is to remove those people who stand in the way of a Muslim state. The reason why they target not just Westerners (who clearly stand in the way-- we introduct Democracy, corporate influence, and lifestyles unacceptable to orthodox Muslims), but other Muslims, is because of one thing: the "plague" of material goods. This political philosophy was strongly advocated by a person named Sayyid Qutb [wikipedia.org]). The line of reasoning is that anyone "infected" by the obsession of ownership will fail to remain a Muslim because they will do anything in order to fulfill their desires. Community and tradition fall apart. Qutb argued that leaders who pushed for Westernization, mainly in the form of economic reforms, were secretly (or perhaps unknowingly) destroying Islam. Therefore, those leaders could be, in good conscience, put to death. Later followers of Qutb's political theory, like Ayman Zawahiri [wikipedia.org] (mentor to Osama bin Laden) expanded on that theory, saying that anyone who follows the Western model of capitalism can be rightfully put to death. Hence, death to other Muslims, death to the people working in the WTC.
But I doubt there is one, pervasive political philosophy throughout the Middle East. There are many different tensions, the result of many different historical conflicts. Part of the reason why there is so much fighting is that Muslims tend not to forget about those conflicts (tradition is important, remember?)-- another is the continuing destabilizing force the West has been throughout the years, playing those historical tensions against each others, for poltical and economic reasons (read: oil & power). Certainly, though, Qutb/Zawahiri's philosophy is the view held by Al Qaeda. So far, they're the only terrorists who actually seem to want to expand the conflict beyond the Middle East.
My question is this, if Al Qaeda is really composed of as many smart people as our government, media, and terrorism "experts" say they are, why haven't they realized that a few dozen bombs ain't exactly going to halt the massive machinery put in place by the military, industry, and politicians? It seems to me that "world domination" isn't their goal. Fear of "world domination" is just the boogeyman that our media keep throwing out at us to keep us happily supporting the $80 billion/yr money pump to war profiteers.
Re:possible but improbable (Score:5, Interesting)
This actually isn't as stupid as it sounds. Had the explosion gone off properly, the truck (meaning the identifiable marks of the truck) would have been vaporized and buried. The truck wouldn't have been identifiable for months, at least.
That being the case, it would have been suspicious not to report the truck stolen and claim the deposit. Imagine you're the rental agent. The WTC just blew up, and an appropriately sized truck that you rented out has had no one claim the deposit. That's a direct line to the renter, which is how they actually caught the guys (but only because they identified the truck almost immediately).
Re:The UK Terror plot: what's really going on? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am often amazed that even so sharp a tool as Occam's razor is unable to cut through the nonesense that gets posted on Slashdot.
Lets try this: It was a genuine plot, under invenstigation [dailymail.co.uk] for a long period of time, (one of many [mg.co.za]) that was stopped when they decided to try a dry run [thestar.com]. Cash, guns, [dailymail.co.uk] and a bomb making kit [bbc.co.uk] have apparently been found. No word yet on if they are related to the suspected terrorist training [guardian.co.uk] going on in various places in the UK. This was as much about "saving Joe Lieberman" as the terrorist activity against Australia [abc.net.au]... which is to say, not related at all. (Maybe you've heard of the Bali bombing [bbc.co.uk]? It is just one of many attacks against Australians and the West in general.) There are many more like it in: Phillipines, India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc, none of which are designed to prop up a US president who can't be reelected any way..
Terrorists Gerry, Ted, Kim, Hideo, Dmitri, Yigal (Score:3, Interesting)